Churchill statue defaced, Edward Calston statue pulled down

[Saint Laurent 4,862]

If anybody in here is thinking or saying 'why resort to vandalism? Just request for it to be removed peacefully', please know that the people of Bristol have fought for a long time for this to be removed, and they have been ignored.

It is also not just about the statue itself, the message accompanying it is very praiseful. We should not praise those who benefitted from the selling and transportation of slaves (and for context, this man's transportation of slaves led to the loss of 19,000 black lives).

Statues do not record history; books and teachings do.

I think this was a very powerful moment and I am extremely happy that the statue is gone.

[StrawberryBlond 15,564]

55 minutes ago, Morphine Prince said:

Move the statues to museums where people can look at how they were praised despite their atrocities.

That's actually a really good idea (would have to have very high ceilings, though). The only part I don't like about statues being destroyed is that the original makers put so much time and effort into them and probably for a pittance, especially the Victorian ones. But then it could always be melted down and used for other means. I'm always one for being against any form of waste. To see that statue covered in paint, kneeled on (which is kinda irrelevant because a case in the present day has no parallel to the old days) and thrown in the docks with a rope around its neck by an angry mob is quite...sinister. It's essentially like saying the same thing that happened to blacks become funny when it's done to whites, even if it's a statue of an awful white person. I thought the last thing they'd want to do is do a mock lynching. And someone is going to have a hard job fishing that heavy thing out the water, but I bet they didn't think of that. There was no need to go that far. As I said, it's up to the council in charge to pull statues down in a controlled way, it's not the public's right to take it upon themselves. There was a petition with 11,000 signatures to take it down. It was probably going to happen eventually but people took the chance for a carry on today.

55 minutes ago, xoxo Craig said:

I think racism and tackling it is bigger than a virus... and if people wear masks and keep their distance, then it should be fine

There's more ways to tackle it than a protest. I was just quoting stuff today that encouraged petitioning and phoning your mayor and suchlike. Not everyone's built for protesting as I keep on saying. The frontlines are for extroverts, the introverts do their job behind the scenes. And by the way, masks won't save you. All the experts say they won't they just provide the illusion of safety. If it's airborne, it can still stick to the rest of your skin and clothes and you touch those things and that's that. People are still woefully miseducated about how pervasive this virus is. No one thought any other issue affecting marginalised groups was worth defending during the pandemic. It doesn't seem right that there should be one exception that puts us all at risk. Racism is not the only injustice going on but it continually seems to be the only one that's seen as worth protesting for and to an extremist level at that. It makes me wonder why people aren't as equally outraged for other causes that are just as worthy.

42 minutes ago, Harry said:

It’s always just “but”, “not all”, “not just” with you when it comes to these issues, isn’t it? Just such a dense approach to any discourse. And you wonder why people on here have the perception of you that they do.

Craig literally provided evidence of media putting blame on the BLM protests for a second wave. Go on social media or make a quick Google search - it’s not hard to find. When it comes I suspect nobody will be remembering the people doing a ****ing conga line down the road for VE Day. But yes you’d rather have us believe that everyone is in full support of the black community.

I’m fairly certain I know who you’ll be quick to blame upon the second wave 🙄

How is it dense? It was always pushed on me that it's very important to say "some, not all" when dealing with any issue that doesn't have a 100% guarantee. I'm just trying to be accurate.

And I told him I've seen the exact same media blaming all these sun worshippers for a second wave ever since lockdown began. Hello, look at how much the media and public have bashed Dominic Cummings, one man and his wife and children! We've been quick to blame anyone flouting rules. You're just using wishful thinking here and wanting to see the worst in people. It doesn't take a genius to work out that a crowded protest, with people standing shoulder-to-shoulder, some without masks and not having any sanitation facilities is going to cause an existing virus to spread especially in a virus hotspot like London. And the same would be true for ANY reason.

I blame anyone who's going outside for non-essential reasons without precautions right now. We've been doing our part well up until now and just as the virus is starting to calm down, we can't lose focus. Protesting can wait. There's no deadline on it, it's not like a national holiday that's held on a specific day. You can hold it any time you want. there's ways you can make a difference without taking to the streets.

30 minutes ago, Harry said:

As a general principle, I agree. However my point is more about certain people largely ignoring the root cause of the protests and instead focusing their attention, outrage and urgency on “why aren’t they wearing facemasks!”. I think that lack of perspective says a lot about those people.

To me it seems absolutely trivial in comparison ESPECIALLY when you take into consideration vast amounts of white people felt it was appropriate to break the rules at an even more critical time in the pandemic for us because they didn’t want to miss out on a sunny bank holiday weekend at the beach. Seems like very different cases to me. But will the media and right leaning public like StrawberryBlond consider those differences? Or will they use it as an opportunity to demonise the black community again?

No one thought it trivial when there were ANY large gatherings recently. No one, not even Tories, thought Dominic Cummings outings were acceptable. Why does it suddenly not mean a thing now just because people want to protest? It's the modern age, there's mutliple ways you can make a change from your own bedroom, for God's sake.

I wasn't breaking the rules, I don't know anyone who was. And people of all races were flouting the rules, it wasn't just whites. Yet you choose to say it was just them sunbathing. It's not a different case at all - flouting rules is flouting rules. And I'm not right leaning, I'm a leftist! Just because I'm not a crazy anarchist one doesn't mean I'm not a leftist. I'm not demonising the black community. I just want the public kept safe from a second wave. Black people are more susceptible to the virus. I thought you of all people would know and respect that.

8 minutes ago, Harry said:

I do hear what you're saying, but again, why would your support of the cause be compromised as a result of the minority - and it is the minority - of those who choose to not socially distance? We are fortunate that our situation with the police is not *as* bad as it is in the US. Not good by any means, but still not as severe. I attended a peaceful protest today in my hometown and social distancing was followed and almost everybody I saw was wearing masks etc. These protests have been happening all over the country. Are those the ones we see on national news? No. Will the cause as a whole be blamed? Most likely.

As I said earlier, masks won't save you. You're taking a risk every time you step outside your door, even if it is for essentials. Social distancing and masks can only help so much, an airborne virus finds its way.

[Saint Laurent 4,862]

2 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

That's actually a really good idea (would have to have very high ceilings, though). The only part I don't like about statues being destroyed is that the original makers put so much time and effort into them and probably for a pittance, especially the Victorian ones. But then it could always be melted down and used for other means. I'm always one for being against any form of waste. To see that statue covered in paint, kneeled on (which is kinda irrelevant because a case in the present day has no parallel to the old days) and thrown in the docks with a rope around its neck by an angry mob is quite...sinister. It's essentially like saying the same thing that happened to blacks become funny when it's done to whites, even if it's a statue of an awful white person. I thought the last thing they'd want to do is do a mock lynching. And someone is going to have a hard job fishing that heavy thing out the water, but I bet they didn't think of that. There was no need to go that far. As I said, it's up to the council in charge to pull statues down in a controlled way, it's not the public's right to take it upon themselves. There was a petition with 11,000 signatures to take it down. It was probably going to happen eventually but people took the chance for a carry on today.

There's more ways to tackle it than a protest. I was just quoting stuff today that encouraged petitioning and phoning your mayor and suchlike. Not everyone's built for protesting as I keep on saying. The frontlines are for extroverts, the introverts do their job behind the scenes. And by the way, masks won't save you. All the experts say they won't they just provide the illusion of safety. If it's airborne, it can still stick to the rest of your skin and clothes and you touch those things and that's that. People are still woefully miseducated about how pervasive this virus is. No one thought any other issue affecting marginalised groups was worth defending during the pandemic. It doesn't seem right that there should be one exception that puts us all at risk. Racism is not the only injustice going on but it continually seems to be the only one that's seen as worth protesting for and to an extremist level at that. It makes me wonder why people aren't as equally outraged for other causes that are just as worthy.

How is it dense? It was always pushed on me that it's very important to say "some, not all" when dealing with any issue that doesn't have a 100% guarantee. I'm just trying to be accurate.

And I told him I've seen the exact same media blaming all these sun worshippers for a second wave ever since lockdown began. Hello, look at how much the media and public have bashed Dominic Cummings, one man and his wife and children! We've been quick to blame anyone flouting rules. You're just using wishful thinking here and wanting to see the worst in people. It doesn't take a genius to work out that a crowded protest, with people standing shoulder-to-shoulder, some without masks and not having any sanitation facilities is going to cause an existing virus to spread especially in a virus hotspot like London. And the same would be true for ANY reason.

I blame anyone who's going outside for non-essential reasons without precautions right now. We've been doing our part well up until now and just as the virus is starting to calm down, we can't lose focus. Protesting can wait. There's no deadline on it, it's not like a national holiday that's held on a specific day. You can hold it any time you want. there's ways you can make a difference without taking to the streets.

No one thought it trivial when there were ANY large gatherings recently. No one, not even Tories, thought Dominic Cummings outings were acceptable. Why does it suddenly not mean a thing now just because people want to protest? It's the modern age, there's mutliple ways you can make a change from your own bedroom, for God's sake.

I wasn't breaking the rules, I don't know anyone who was. And people of all races were flouting the rules, it wasn't just whites. Yet you choose to say it was just them sunbathing. It's not a different case at all - flouting rules is flouting rules. And I'm not right leaning, I'm a leftist! Just because I'm not a crazy anarchist one doesn't mean I'm not a leftist. I'm not demonising the black community. I just want the public kept safe from a second wave. Black people are more susceptible to the virus. I thought you of all people would know and respect that.

As I said earlier, masks won't save you. You're taking a risk every time you step outside your door, even if it is for essentials. Social distancing and masks can only help so much, an airborne virus finds its way.

I think you're missing the point entirely.

Risk a second wave of COVID-19 vs. risk further hundreds of years of diabolical treatment and murdering of black people.

Hopefully you can see why people are drawn more towards the latter...

 

[derpmonster 22,412]

4 hours ago, Cookies said:

erasing history won't erase racism.

It's not about erasing them

It's about not glorifying them. There's an important distinction.

[Harry 26,836]

Just now, StrawberryBlond said:

How is it dense? It was always pushed on me that it's very important to say "some, not all" when dealing with any issue that doesn't have a 100% guarantee. I'm just trying to be accurate.

And I told him I've seen the exact same media blaming all these sun worshippers for a second wave ever since lockdown began. Hello, look at how much the media and public have bashed Dominic Cummings, one man and his wife and children! We've been quick to blame anyone flouting rules. You're just using wishful thinking here and wanting to see the worst in people. It doesn't take a genius to work out that a crowded protest, with people standing shoulder-to-shoulder, some without masks and not having any sanitation facilities is going to cause an existing virus to spread especially in a virus hotspot like London. And the same would be true for ANY reason.

I blame anyone who's going outside for non-essential reasons without precautions right now. We've been doing our part well up until now and just as the virus is starting to calm down, we can't lose focus. Protesting can wait. There's no deadline on it, it's not like a national holiday that's held on a specific day. You can hold it any time you want. there's ways you can make a difference without taking to the streets.

No one thought it trivial when there were ANY large gatherings recently. No one, not even Tories, thought Dominic Cummings outings were acceptable. Why does it suddenly not mean a thing now just because people want to protest? It's the modern age, there's mutliple ways you can make a change from your own bedroom, for God's sake.

I wasn't breaking the rules, I don't know anyone who was. And people of all races were flouting the rules, it wasn't just whites. Yet you choose to say it was just them sunbathing. It's not a different case at all - flouting rules is flouting rules. And I'm not right leaning, I'm a leftist! Just because I'm not a crazy anarchist one doesn't mean I'm not a leftist. I'm not demonising the black community. I just want the public kept safe from a second wave. Black people are more susceptible to the virus. I thought you of all people would know and respect that.

As I said earlier, masks won't save you. You're taking a risk every time you step outside your door, even if it is for essentials. Social distancing and masks can only help so much, an airborne virus finds its way.

How is it dense? There is no nuance or substance in any of your arguments on these topics. I've been calling you out on your problematic views on race for years now, and even in the midst of this movement you still carry "but I have POC friends!" energy.

You're using this time to defend Cummings? The man that is a senior advisor in the government that enforced these rules and therefore should be setting an example? The government that killed the poor and lost them their jobs? "No one, not even Tories, thought Dominic Cummings outings were acceptable"??? Our prime minister stood in front of our entire nation and said he 'acted with integrity'. You are BLIND.

Privilege is thinking "this can wait". You simply don't care. Go out there and see the passion, the anger, the hurt. You absolutely do not care about these people and their plight and it's disgusting. The fact that the urgency to get out in the streets in the middle of this should tell you what you need to know. But again, you simply don't care.

Again - the point is less about whether it's acceptable in terms of social distancing or not. Again people are literally protesting for human rights and you seem to have an issue with that. Which is absolutely not surprising to me given your rhetoric. You have been more upset about lockdown rules and looting than you are about black lives and that's exactly who you are.

Again -  "it wasn't just!!!". Bore off Rachel, you racist. It absolutely was a majority of whites on the beaches over bank holiday weekend. Take a look at the photos. They are not hard to come by. You'll apply the "not all!" excuse to those people but not to people taking part in meaningful and historical protests and demonstrations. It's so transparent to see that you are right leaning from the way that you channel your criticisms and disapproval to certain groups, and you have done on this forum for many years. Utterly despicable, tasteless and harmful.

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

22 minutes ago, Lord Temptation said:

This changes nothing. Slavery still happened. Slavery is still happening. Only a piece of art got destroyed. Everything else stays the same.

We know that it still happened, but now there is nothing glorifying it. People are outraged and now people are talking about it. Its opening up conversations that otherwise would have remained silent. Instead of having a statue, there are conversations to be had and recognising what happened in the past and how that hurt is still prevalent with racism so we can combat it. 

[alsemanche 97,799]

4 hours ago, Cookies said:

erasing history won't erase racism.

They're literally statues put up in honor of racist di*ks lmao

[AlwaysLoveGaga 4,297]

I 100% agree that doing "good things" doesn't forgive a person for doing bad things.

While I do not know much about Calston, taking down his statue I 100% agree with in the same vein as taking down a Robert E Lee or Jefferson Davis statue. They, especially Lee and Davis, were horrible people.

At the same time, I believe that doing bad things does not automatically negate good actions taken.

With that in mind, it's the Churchill statue that I'm not 100% in agreement with taken down. 

I am in no way trying to justify or defend his heinous actions in India, but I believe those actions shouldn't make us forget the legitimately good things he did during WWII.

While Churchill did do bad things, without him Hitler could have very likely won World War II, or at least defeat England. Again, while I am not justifying any of his actions, he objectively did very good things.

When we look at history we should not blindly say someone is bad or good. I'm not saying to try and find the good in Hitler, but what I am saying is that most historical figures have good and bad things attributed to them.

Doing bad things doesn't mean the person hasn't done good things and doing good things doesn't mean the person hasn't done bad things. Many prominent historical figures have done both.

To understand history we have to look at all parts of a person and try to make a judgement. While there are obvious exceptions, saying someone is "evil" or "amazing" leaves out any room for judgement. 

[auburn 1,072]

4 hours ago, Cookies said:

erasing history won't erase racism.

You think homophobia is an opinion in one thread and now you think these statues should remain????? 

[auburn 1,072]

Melt down these statues and make bullets to hunt down racists. 

[Varys 30,916]

4 hours ago, Cookies said:

erasing history won't erase racism.

Omg not 4 open trump supporters liking / thnxing this.

4 trump supporter slave trade defenders. We know what THEY mean when they say make america great again 

[Lord Temptation 11,209]

1 hour ago, xoxo Craig said:

We know that it still happened, but now there is nothing glorifying it. People are outraged and now people are talking about it. Its opening up conversations that otherwise would have remained silent. Instead of having a statue, there are conversations to be had and recognising what happened in the past and how that hurt is still prevalent with racism so we can combat it. 

Yes, just like how Christians used to destroy idols of false gods. Great! But still, nothing changes. Racism still happened in the past and it’s still happening right now even if there are no statues about it. 

[StrawberryBlond 15,564]

1 hour ago, Saint Laurent said:

I think you're missing the point entirely.

Risk a second wave of COVID-19 vs. risk further hundreds of years of diabolical treatment and murdering of black people.

Hopefully you can see why people are drawn more towards the latter...

You can protest at any time. It can wait until this is over. It's not going to lose its chance because you held out for a month or two. Discrimination doesn't get worse because you could have protested that teeny bit sooner. People are making it seem like there's a deadline or it's a set day you have to do it to have any effect. Just be realistic and realise it'll have an effect any time you do it.

1 hour ago, Harry said:

How is it dense? There is no nuance or substance in any of your arguments on these topics. I've been calling you out on your problematic views on race for years now, and even in the midst of this movement you still carry "but I have POC friends!" energy.

You're using this time to defend Cummings? The man that is a senior advisor in the government that enforced these rules and therefore should be setting an example? The government that killed the poor and lost them their jobs? "No one, not even Tories, thought Dominic Cummings outings were acceptable"??? Our prime minister stood in front of our entire nation and said he 'acted with integrity'. You are BLIND.

Privilege is thinking "this can wait". You simply don't care. Go out there and see the passion, the anger, the hurt. You absolutely do not care about these people and their plight and it's disgusting. The fact that the urgency to get out in the streets in the middle of this should tell you what you need to know. But again, you simply don't care.

Again - the point is less about whether it's acceptable in terms of social distancing or not. Again people are literally protesting for human rights and you seem to have an issue with that. Which is absolutely not surprising to me given your rhetoric. You have been more upset about lockdown rules and looting than you are about black lives and that's exactly who you are.

Again -  "it wasn't just!!!". Bore off Rachel, you racist. It absolutely was a majority of whites on the beaches over bank holiday weekend. Take a look at the photos. They are not hard to come by. You'll apply the "not all!" excuse to those people but not to people taking part in meaningful and historical protests and demonstrations. It's so transparent to see that you are right leaning from the way that you channel your criticisms and disapproval to certain groups, and you have done on this forum for many years. Utterly despicable, tasteless and harmful.

No nuance or substance? I'm saying stuff in this thread with insight that no one else is! No one else is saying that masks don't help or that black people are more susceptible. And everyone's focusing more on the statues being pulled down than about officers acting within the law getting attacked and their innocent horses getting bikes rammed into them. If you paid any attention to the recent things I've been saying about race, you'd agree with me. I've repeatedly said recently that I support the protestors, I just don't think they should resort to looting, vandalism and violence and should make a difference in more organised ways.

Good God, I wasn't defending Cummings, wasn't that obvious? My point was that if people rightfully bashed a family of four for flouting rules by travelling too far then naturally, they'll be just as annoyed by all this beach goers over the last few months and will be annoyed at anyone flouting rules, not just protestors! And yeah, Boris is about the only one defending him. The Tory party and Tory voters even think he's full of it. That's my point - the Tories aren't letting one of their own have a free pass, so they're not as loyal to each other as you're making out.

But it can wait. Protesting can be done at any time. I do care, I'm just not the protesting type. I'm a staunch feminist and I've never even been to a feminist protest. I'm an introvert, I don't cope with big crowds. I even have trepidation going to Gaga concerts and prefer sitting. I just don't want violence on the streets for anyone or for the virus to be passed on. This is coming from a place of compassion, not disdain. You're so binary with your thinking. There's multiple reasons why someone can choose to do something, you know. And they can all be good as well. And I can upset about multiple things at once. Complexity - try it.

Get lost and that's me being diplomatic. I did blame the people on the beaches, multiple times. I've said over and over: I BLAME ANYONE FLOUTING LOCKDOWN RULES. Craig was just making it seem like literally everyone was flouting them and I pointed out that wasn't true. I'm not disapproving of any groups, you just think I am because you're determined to smear my name no matter what I say. I don't know why I bother trying to change your mind. You and your cronies who like all your hateful, untrue posts don't know s**t about or what I do offline. I laugh at how off the mark you are with who I really am. I know who I am, my loved ones know who I am, why should someone who makes uninformed opinions of me get me down?

[Harris Walz 2024 1,451]

Revolution is seldom pretty.

[Saint Laurent 4,862]

18 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

You can protest at any time. It can wait until this is over. It's not going to lose its chance because you held out for a month or two. Discrimination doesn't get worse because you could have protested that teeny bit sooner. People are making it seem like there's a deadline or it's a set day you have to do it to have any effect. Just be realistic and realise it'll have an effect any time you do it.

No nuance or substance? I'm saying stuff in this thread with insight that no one else is! No one else is saying that masks don't help or that black people are more susceptible. And everyone's focusing more on the statues being pulled down than about officers acting within the law getting attacked and their innocent horses getting bikes rammed into them. If you paid any attention to the recent things I've been saying about race, you'd agree with me. I've repeatedly said recently that I support the protestors, I just don't think they should resort to looting, vandalism and violence and should make a difference in more organised ways.

Good God, I wasn't defending Cummings, wasn't that obvious? My point was that if people rightfully bashed a family of four for flouting rules by travelling too far then naturally, they'll be just as annoyed by all this beach goers over the last few months and will be annoyed at anyone flouting rules, not just protestors! And yeah, Boris is about the only one defending him. The Tory party and Tory voters even think he's full of it. That's my point - the Tories aren't letting one of their own have a free pass, so they're not as loyal to each other as you're making out.

But it can wait. Protesting can be done at any time. I do care, I'm just not the protesting type. I'm a staunch feminist and I've never even been to a feminist protest. I'm an introvert, I don't cope with big crowds. I even have trepidation going to Gaga concerts and prefer sitting. I just don't want violence on the streets for anyone or for the virus to be passed on. This is coming from a place of compassion, not disdain. You're so binary with your thinking. There's multiple reasons why someone can choose to do something, you know. And they can all be good as well. And I can upset about multiple things at once. Complexity - try it.

Get lost and that's me being diplomatic. I did blame the people on the beaches, multiple times. I've said over and over: I BLAME ANYONE FLOUTING LOCKDOWN RULES. Craig was just making it seem like literally everyone was flouting them and I pointed out that wasn't true. I'm not disapproving of any groups, you just think I am because you're determined to smear my name no matter what I say. I don't know why I bother trying to change your mind. You and your cronies who like all your hateful, untrue posts don't know s**t about or what I do offline. I laugh at how off the mark you are with who I really am. I know who I am, my loved ones know who I am, why should someone who makes uninformed opinions of me get me down?

Who knows how many more innocent black lives would be stolen due to racism if this would have, like you're suggesting it should have, waited a couple of months (or even years, by the way, given current scientific opinion on the how long the effects of COVID-19 are likely to last).

An innocent black man is murdered by police, and people should wait to protest out of fear? What sort of message would that send.

Shame on you.

Whether you approve of it or not, this movement is sending crashing waves through the infrastructure of our countries, which is rooted in racism and white supremacy and that is a very positive thing.