Churchill statue defaced, Edward Calston statue pulled down

[Harry 26,836]

7 minutes ago, elijahfan said:

Then why can't they add, like, plaques explaining why those statues were erected in the first place? It does say something about our society and how far we've come. We should be able to watch our shameful past in the eye, and not hide it in history books like hiding dust under a rug (I mean, who even reads history books these days?).

The point still stands that history goes far beyond a statue. It’s completely understandable why people wouldn’t want certain figures as statues. In the case of Churchill I don’t think it shows that we’ve come that far since most of the country refuses to acknowledge his racism and genocide. It comes down to education and I’m speaking on that as someone that has been through the British education system. It’s funny you talk about hiding history when that’s literally what’s been happening with Churchill forever. Literally NOBODY is advocating for removing history - they are advocating for the full picture to be shown. And it is not. That starts in schools. The statue honestly seems so arbitrary to me in comparison and I’ve got no idea why people are so hung up on it. 

[elijahfan 27,484]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

The point still stands that history goes far beyond a statue. It’s completely understandable why people wouldn’t want certain figures as statues. In the case of Churchill I don’t think it shows that we’ve come that far since most of the country refuses to acknowledge his racism and genocide. It comes down to education and I’m speaking on that as someone that has been through the British education system. It’s funny you talk about hiding history when that’s literally what’s been happening with Churchill forever. Literally NOBODY is advocating for removing history - they are advocating for the full picture to be shown. And it is not. That starts in schools. The statue honestly seems so arbitrary to me in comparison and I’ve got no idea why people are so hung up on it. 

It's just that putting down statues won't erase the past, that's all. Sure, that's really satisfying in the heat of the moment, but in the long run, I believe it would be more beneficial to keep those scars visible, to know that there was a time as a society when we revered men like that. We shouldn't forget that at one point, we proudly erected those statues. I believe it's incredibly important to know where we come from in order to acknowledge our past and build a better future, but obviously this is a polarizing issue.

[Harry 26,836]

54 minutes ago, elijahfan said:

It's just that putting down statues won't erase the past, that's all. Sure, that's really satisfying in the heat of the moment, but in the long run, I believe it would be more beneficial to keep those scars visible, to know that there was a time as a society when we revered men like that. We shouldn't forget that at one point, we proudly erected those statues. I believe it's incredibly important to know where we come from in order to acknowledge our past and build a better future, but obviously this is a polarizing issue.

As I've said numerous times in this thread, even in the post of mine that you just responded to, it's not about 'erasing the past'. And nobody is trying to. It's quite the opposite.

I think you are missing the point, and the anger of POC in Britain regarding Churchill specifically. I'm not sure how I can phrase it any differently. What you are saying would be true in an ideal world, but sadly it is not. You keep talking about showing how far we've come and keeping "scars visible", but the point is that they are already NOT and never have been. As a country we literally bury those parts of our history and instead completely glorify figures like Churchill and the British Empire without acknowledging the brutality of it all in literally any form. Your sentiment would have footing if those things were openly taught and discussed in my country, but they are not. The statues are pure glorification, nothing more. People are angry, people are tired. And so this is the result.

I completely agree with your last sentence, but the problem is that we do not acknowledge the full picture of our past as a country. And a damn statue isn't the answer to that, period.

[elijahfan 27,484]

13 minutes ago, Harry said:

As I've said numerous times in this thread, even in the post of mine that you just responded to, it's not about 'erasing the past'. And nobody is trying to. It's quite the opposite.

I think you are missing the point, and the anger of POC in Britain regarding Churchill specifically. I'm not sure how I can phrase it any differently. What you are saying would be true in an ideal world, but sadly it is not. You keep talking about showing how far we've come and keeping "scars visible", but the point is that they are already NOT and never have been. As a country we literally bury those parts of our history and instead completely glorify figures like Churchill and the British Empire without acknowledging the brutality of it all in literally any form. Your sentiment would have footing if those things were openly taught and discussed in my country, but they are not. The statues are pure glorification, nothing more. People are angry, people are tired. And so this is the result.

I completely agree with your last sentence, but the problem is that we do not acknowledge the full picture of our past as a country. And a damn statue isn't the answer to that, period.

You stood your point, I stood mine... I perfectly understand what you mean, there's no need to rephrase anything, or we could go on forever. The thing is: nobody is right or wrong, we all have valid arguments, and that's what makes it all so tricky.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, elijahfan said:

It's just that putting down statues won't erase the past, that's all.

There has been so many people saying that. I don't understand. Has anyone said "We will put this statue down to erase the past". It makes no sense, this just sounds like one reason to complain about the statue being defaced because deep down it actually hurts your soul. Is it that difficult to understand that a statue is a symbol? And is it that difficult to understand that history in the UK but also many other countries hide some history of the past and only shine light on others? It's very important that in school we are taught what truly happened in the past and what truly one historical figure did, from start to finish. This has not been done with Churchill, he is a glorified hero when he was a racist. I don't understand what's sooooo hard to understand about this and what is debateable about this

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Harry said:

Thank you for admitting openly that you used my sexuality to put me down in a moment of anger.

That's pretty low and that shows a lack of morals/values and a lack of understanding of other people. Completely disgusted by this member, I'm sorry u had to go thru that, disgusting behavior 

[StrawberryBlond 15,564]

4 hours ago, Harry said:

Thank you for admitting openly that you used my sexuality to put me down in a moment of anger.

I don’t understand the weight? I don’t think you understand the weight of your racially charged comments. The evidence is literally in your posts. You’ve had so many people on here tell you that but you still refuse to reflect inwards on it. Racism is not as simple as “I don’t like people of colour” or “I think people of colour are lesser than me”. You really need to educate yourself. Now is the time.

Now will you say sorry to me for all the numerous horrible comments that you've said to me in a moment of anger and continue to say to me? Oh, wait, you won't, as you don't believe in apologising.

I don't make racially charged comments, I merely comment on racial issues. I'm always pro-POC but that doesn't mean I can't criticise them the same way I criticise whites. No one is immune to criticism, me included. I take so much offence to people saying I'm not educated on race. How do you know this through a computer screen? You don't know anything about what I've studied or read. Perhaps you don't understand the weight of calling a woman uneducated either? Especially when she is educated?

44 minutes ago, KanyeWest said:

That's pretty low and that shows a lack of morals/values and a lack of understanding of other people. Completely disgusted by this member, I'm sorry u had to go thru that, disgusting behavior 

You know nothing of the situation and are just wanting to support anyone who isn't me. I genuinely felt in that moment that Harry didn't like me because it was connected to misogynistic attitudes which exist among some members of the gay community. You don't even know what started us disliking each other, all the way back in 2015. You'll never guess: it was because I predicted that Justin Bieber wouldn't make a comeback with his new music. When he did, Harry quoted me and laughed at how wrong my prediction was. That was our very first interaction and he's hated me ever since, always tried to find a way to pick on me. I don't start fights with him, he starts them with me. So, after starting hatred of me for the pettiest of reasons, I naturally wondered if there was a bigger reason of prejudice as to why he disliked me. I've experienced mean treatment from gay men before and it certainly felt like those times. But, like so many times before, my experience as a woman was denied and silenced. I thought the liberal message of acceptance was never to deny a person's experience, particularly someone from a marginalised group? Whenever oppressed groups go up against each other (in this case - woman vs gay man), it never works out amicably. And in my experience, the woman always loses. It seems that denying a woman's experience is sometimes acceptable in the eyes of some.

Don't poke your nose into situations that don't concern you and make pronouncements on my character. You demonise me for one comment (which you haven't even seen, I believe I'm the only one who has the original PMs) that I made 5 years ago that I've apologised for but you also haven't seen the numerous vile things Harry has said to me over the years (not all of it racially related) in attempts to belittle and humiliate me in front of everyone. And he's never apologised for any of it. If you want to talk about a lack of morals and understanding of people, take a closer look at him.

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

There's a difference between being "pro-poc/black" and being actively anti-racist. Its not good enough to be or to say "I'm not racist" or "I've always been pro-POC". 

Also, why "pro-POC"? Like, that statement feels like its dehumanising POC and black people. 

[Harry 26,836]

18 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

 

You know nothing of the situation and are just wanting to support anyone who isn't me. I genuinely felt in that moment that Harry didn't like me because it was connected to misogynistic attitudes which exist among some members of the gay community. You don't even know what started us disliking each other, all the way back in 2015. You'll never guess: it was because I predicted that Justin Bieber wouldn't make a comeback with his new music. When he did, Harry quoted me and laughed at how wrong my prediction was. That was our very first interaction and he's hated me ever since, always tried to find a way to pick on me. I don't start fights with him, he starts them with me. So, after starting hatred of me for the pettiest of reasons, I naturally wondered if there was a bigger reason of prejudice as to why he disliked me. I've experienced mean treatment from gay men before and it certainly felt like those times. But, like so many times before, my experience as a woman was denied and silenced. I thought the liberal message of acceptance was never to deny a person's experience, particularly someone from a marginalised group? Whenever oppressed groups go up against each other (in this case - woman vs gay man), it never works out amicably. And in my experience, the woman always loses. It seems that denying a woman's experience is sometimes acceptable in the eyes of some.

Don't poke your nose into situations that don't concern you and make pronouncements on my character. You demonise me for one comment (which you haven't even seen, I believe I'm the only one who has the original PMs) that I made 5 years ago that I've apologised for but you also haven't seen the numerous vile things Harry has said to me over the years (not all of it racially related) in attempts to belittle and humiliate me in front of everyone. And he's never apologised for any of it. If you want to talk about a lack of morals and understanding of people, take a closer look at him.

What on Earth are you going on about? You always blabber on about this trivial Justin Bieber anecdote that I dont even remember until you bring it up. My problems with you lay in how you carry yourself on this forum and your problematic views on many issues.

You randomly dismissed my opinion on a conversation because I’m gay and because you’re a woman. Yes you apologised but that’s still how your brain works. I’ve literally never used an anti-feminist rhetoric in any discussion with you because that’s not where my morals lie, but somehow you seem to use your feminism as a shield regardless.

You just told that user not to poke his nose into our situation, but only after writing a lengthy paragraph about it that nobody asked for (and they probably don’t care about, either). Seriously, the world does not revolve around you and your feelings. That’s why I said you should probably get out there and try to see it more sometime 🙄 My morals? Don’t make me laugh. I have apologised for certain things when they have unintentionally caused offence - stop lying.

Also in regards to your education on race: I know that you’re not because of how you speak about it. That’s literally it. If you knew more then you’d have more nuance and substance to offer but your points are often very shallow. Yes people go on about how long your posts are but it doesn’t mean you say much. Your stance on you not being a racist is essentially down to “but I have a black friend” or “I like black music” and you still maintain that’s a valid point. The global discourse about race has moved far beyond those surface level statements. Keep up. 

[elijahfan 27,484]

1 hour ago, KanyeWest said:

There has been so many people saying that. I don't understand. Has anyone said "We will put this statue down to erase the past". It makes no sense, this just sounds like one reason to complain about the statue being defaced because deep down it actually hurts your soul. Is it that difficult to understand that a statue is a symbol? And is it that difficult to understand that history in the UK but also many other countries hide some history of the past and only shine light on others? It's very important that in school we are taught what truly happened in the past and what truly one historical figure did, from start to finish. This has not been done with Churchill, he is a glorified hero when he was a racist. I don't understand what's sooooo hard to understand about this and what is debateable about this

We could also make the general assumption that people are defacing statues because it hurts their soul to acknowledge their country's shameful past and would rather put it all under the rug  Don't assume what's going on in people's heads, it's much more complex than that.

The fact those statues were erected at some point in history says something about what we were as societies. So what's better? Taking down all the statues and changing all the streets named after problematic public figures and act like nothing happened and like we never revered those people at some point to clean our conscience, or owning up our mistakes, looking our shameful past in the eye and making sure we never forget about it? There's a reason why Auschwitz was never destroyed (guess what: the nazis tried) and was turned into a museum. Keep those scars apparent for everyone to see and remember.

I'm not saying any solution is better than another, it's just my point of view. Everyone is right in this debate because I believe everyone's feelings are valid and come from a shared wish for a better future. What we can all agree on is: something must be done, and it all starts with education.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I don't start fights with him, he starts them with me. So, after starting hatred of me for the pettiest of reasons, I naturally wondered if there was a bigger reason of prejudice as to why he disliked me. I've experienced mean treatment from gay men before and it certainly felt like those times.

There is nothing 'natural' about instantly jumping to the conclusion that he hates you because he's a gay man and you're a woman lol

26 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

But, like so many times before, my experience as a woman was denied and silenced.

You just talked about Justin Bieber, and someone disagreed with you and now suddenly, the member who's gay and it's apparently important for you, is a sexist who hates women and your experience as a woman, meaning criticizing Justin Bieber, was denied and silenced. I have to laugh.

27 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

You'll never guess: it was because I predicted that Justin Bieber wouldn't make a comeback with his new music. When he did, Harry quoted me and laughed at how wrong my prediction was.

By the way, this has happened to me too. I remember critizing American food, and someone then mentioned me months later making fun of it, which I found funny. It's very very very harmless, I don't understand how it got you all wired up and made you think in your head that because the member is gay he hates women and hates you. Do you realize how crazy that sounds lol

30 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Don't poke your nose into situations that don't concern you and make pronouncements on my character. You demonise me for one comment (which you haven't even seen, I believe I'm the only one who has the original PMs) that I made 5 years ago that I've apologised for but you also haven't seen the numerous vile things Harry has said to me over the years (not all of it racially related) in attempts to belittle and humiliate me in front of everyone. And he's never apologised for any of it. If you want to talk about a lack of morals and understanding of people, take a closer look at him

You're right I haven't seen private messages nor is it my business, but something tells me it wouldn't change my opinion. I've seen a lot of your posts and it's not the first time that I always found something weird about what you say. I think it's sad though that you can't look inward and analyse your own words and see what couldve been weird. But none of my business, somehow you are always the victim in the end

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, elijahfan said:

We could also make the general assumption that people are defacing statues because it hurts their soul to acknowledge their country's shameful past and would rather put it all under the rug  Don't assume what's going on in people's heads, it's much more complex than that.

You're right but I personally think it's a little off the mark because statues have always been to pay tribute to someone therefore glorify them.

2 minutes ago, elijahfan said:

So what's better? Taking down all the statues and changing all the streets named after problematic public figures and act like nothing happened and like we never revered those people at some point to clean our conscience, or owning up our mistakes, looking our shameful past in the eye and making sure we never forget about it? There's a reason why Auschwitz was never destroyed (guess what: the nazis tried) and was turned into a museum. Keep those scars apparent for everyone to see and remember.

I think Auschwitz and a statue are different things. Keeping a concentration camp pays means not forgetting what happened. Keeping a statue of Hitler for example if it existed, glorifies him as a hero. But that's how I see it

[elijahfan 27,484]

3 minutes ago, KanyeWest said:

You're right but I personally think it's a little off the mark because statues have always been to pay tribute to someone therefore glorify them.

I think Auschwitz and a statue are different things. Keeping a concentration camp pays means not forgetting what happened. Keeping a statue of Hitler for example if it existed, glorifies him as a hero. But that's how I see it

I get what you mean, and I hope that through this analogy you also understand why some people think putting the statues down isn't the best solution. Unlike what my posts might suggest, I am myself really divided about all this.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, elijahfan said:

I get what you mean, and I hope that through this analogy you also understand why some people think putting the statues down isn't the best solution. Unlike what my posts might suggest, I am myself really divided about all this.

I actually understand your point of view but I'm for getting rid of it

[ShayCristoforo 10,607]

The fact that there are so many replies and paragraphs is honestly ridiculous.

WHY IS IT SO HARD TO JUST SAY:

I understand that these figures are celebrated, despite their wrongdoings.
I understand that celebratory statues gloss over the wrongdoings of these figures. 
I understand that their celebrations are upsetting to many people.
I understand the destruction of these statues in protest. 

Y'all charlatans baffle me sometimes with your fallacious arguments and whimpers. I see your self-centered fragility in the name of being "objective".