The lack of evidence lockdowns worked is a world scandal

[Bt1 5,213]

1 hour ago, TOSK said:

Reuters called it a lock down, their cred is miles above yours. I know exactly what a lock down was meant to do, reduce cases, reduce death and save the healthcare system from collapsing. Show me were I said a lock down was a cure for the virus. You're the one who said lock downs don't work. Reducing cases, reducing death and saving the healthcare system from collapsing is pretty good.

I've said multiple times it isnt effective. WHO said that, not me. 

Yea, u can imprison people for life and they wont get HIV. But it is better to give them a condom and let them live life. 

The same with this. If u save one life from covid and destroyed the economy, caused other violences, deaths, suicides, hunger, then the "saved life" costed more lifes. And that is the true with this butcher solution. 

And if u know that lockdowns werent meant to eliminate the virus, why you post those news? Their healthcare system collapsed without a lockdown? No. 

[Bt1 5,213]

1 hour ago, tylertremallose said:

I mean I was there while everything started shutting down and it happened pretty quickly and before the virus really got out of hand and I also trust my friends that live there that said NZ shut down pretty quickly. 
 

NZ did pretty well at containing the virus so yes, lock downs do work which is what this debate is about. NZ is a prime example. 
 

 

The point was that other countries closed as fast as NZ and they didnt have the same results, because they were close to the "action". 

[TOSK 640]

14 minutes ago, Florin said:

I've said multiple times it isnt effective. WHO said that, not me. 

Yea, u can imprison people for life and they wont get HIV. But it is better to give them a condom and let them live life. 

The same with this. If u save one life from covid and destroyed the economy, caused other violences, deaths, suicides, hunger, then the "saved life" costed more lifes. And that is the true with this butcher solution. 

And if u know that lockdowns werent meant to eliminate the virus, why you post those news? Their healthcare system collapsed without a lockdown? No. 

You said it wasn't effective, it is absolutely effective. It saves live, saves the healthcare system by lowering cases. Every country in the world used it to lower cases, save lives and protect the healthcare system.  Very effective.  

[TOSK 640]

1 hour ago, Florin said:

 And that is the true with this butcher solution. 

 

Earlier coronavirus lockdown 'could have saved 36,000 lives'

PSST! that's additional lives, US only!

A study has estimated there may have been 36,000 fewer coronavirus-related deaths had the US entered lockdown a week earlier in March.

The Columbia University research also estimated that around 83% of deaths could have been avoided if measures had been taken two weeks earlier.

It suggested that 54,000 fewer people would have died had cities begun locking down on 1 March.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52757150

[tylertremallose 1,398]

37 minutes ago, Florin said:

The point was that other countries closed as fast as NZ and they didnt have the same results, because they were close to the "action". 

NZ started before any "action" could start happening. If other countries closed just as fast, they wouldnt have been "close to the action". So again, it works, countries just didnt do it quick enough. 

[Bt1 5,213]

11 hours ago, TOSK said:

You said it wasn't effective, it is absolutely effective. It saves live, saves the healthcare system by lowering cases. Every country in the world used it to lower cases, save lives and protect the healthcare system.  Very effective.  

It isnt. More people will probably die because how this was implemented. 

[Bt1 5,213]

11 hours ago, tylertremallose said:

NZ started before any "action" could start happening. If other countries closed just as fast, they wouldnt have been "close to the action". So again, it works, countries just didnt do it quick enough. 

Well. Ask Peru then. It closed before NZ  and the outcome is not the same. 

Again. Maybe u should look where NZ is on the map. 

[TOSK 640]

4 hours ago, Florin said:

It isnt. More people will probably die because how this was implemented. 

It's only common sense

Israel’s COVID-19 Experts: The Lockdown Saved the Country, but Steps Are Needed to Avert Another

Members of the government’s coronavirus team of 10 experts tell Haaretz why the drastic measures taken this spring were absolutely necessary

They say it’s very simple: There are no shortcuts. Countries that swiftly closed their gates, isolated people who returned from abroad and imposed a lockdown early on saved the lives of thousands, if not tens of thousands. Those that tarried, tried to dodge the truth or made foolish decisions got hurt.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-s-covid-experts-lockdown-saved-country-steps-are-needed-to-avert-another-1.8879376

 

 

[TOSK 640]

4 hours ago, Florin said:

It isnt. More people will probably die because how this was implemented. 

Drexel researchers estimate Philadelphia’s coronavirus lockdown saved 6,200 lives

Compared with imposing no safeguards, the first 45 days of the City of Brotherly Love’s shutdown was estimated to have avoided about 57,000 hospitalizations and 6,200 deaths.

Keeping the city hunkered down until May 22 would be even better, preventing 68,000 hospitalizations and saving 7,100 lives.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/drexel-model-estimates-philadelphias-coronavirus-lockdown-saved-6200-lives-20200512.html

 

[Economy 52,854]

20 hours ago, Florin said:

The thing is "lockdown works /doesnt work" is the wrong thing to say. We should ask if it is effective? And unfortunately the answer is no. 

To make a comparasion : you can fight HIV by :

1. Not having sex

2. Using a condom.

people can choose the first version for themself, but dont force anyone else to choose 1, when 2 works just fine. 

I get ur point and ur right. It's not the best way to handle it.

 

But since countries were not prepared in any other way, this was the only method they had at the time to control spikes so they did it. Now that countries are better supplied with masks, healthcare capacity increased and ventilators, more testing for tracing etc, now countries are reopening even with cases still going on

 

U also said it didn't work not just that it wasn't the more effective solution like ur condom vs abstinence example

[TOSK 640]

17 hours ago, Florin said:

I've said multiple times it isnt effective. WHO said that, not me.

WHO Sets 6 Conditions For Ending A Coronavirus Lockdown

Any government that wants to start lifting restrictions, said Tedros of WHO, must first meet six conditions:

1. Disease transmission is under control

2. Health systems are able to "detect, test, isolate and treat every case and trace every contact"

3. Hot spot risks are minimized in vulnerable places, such as nursing homes

4. Schools, workplaces and other essential places have established preventive measures

5. The risk of importing new cases "can be managed"

6. Communities are fully educated, engaged and empowered to live under a new normal

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/15/834021103/who-sets-6-conditions-for-ending-a-coronavirus-lockdown

[Bt1 5,213]

8 minutes ago, TOSK said:

WHO Sets 6 Conditions For Ending A Coronavirus Lockdown

Any government that wants to start lifting restrictions, said Tedros of WHO, must first meet six conditions:

1. Disease transmission is under control

2. Health systems are able to "detect, test, isolate and treat every case and trace every contact"

3. Hot spot risks are minimized in vulnerable places, such as nursing homes

4. Schools, workplaces and other essential places have established preventive measures

5. The risk of importing new cases "can be managed"

6. Communities are fully educated, engaged and empowered to live under a new normal

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/15/834021103/who-sets-6-conditions-for-ending-a-coronavirus-lockdown

Yea. If the governments did what they didnt supposed to do, now they make recommendations for how to continue their mistakes. It isnt because the governments did good. It is because they already did the bad and the effects are outhere.

But they said in a peer reviewed study last year that they dont recommend lockdowns. Look it up. 

[Rio 5,088]

On 5/28/2020 at 10:20 AM, Florin said:

Well. Science doesnt agree with you. Maybe u dont understand that social distancing measures can exist outside of lockdowns? 

You seriously misread my comment.

[Bt1 5,213]

45 minutes ago, Economy said:

I get ur point and ur right. It's not the best way to handle it.

 

But since countries were not prepared in any other way, this was the only method they had at the time to control spikes so they did it. Now that countries are better supplied with masks, healthcare capacity increased and ventilators, more testing for tracing etc, now countries are reopening even with cases still going on

 

U also said it didn't work not just that it wasn't the more effective solution like ur condom vs abstinence example

Well. Sometimes, when someone says "lockdown works",  an answer like "they dont work" comes automatically. The essence was always that they arent effective. 

Anyone can understand that 3 months ago they werent ready, didnt knew much. But I've seen in the last 2 months how important information was ignored, because it didnt fit their measures. 

[Bt1 5,213]

1 hour ago, TOSK said:

Drexel researchers estimate Philadelphia’s coronavirus lockdown saved 6,200 lives

Compared with imposing no safeguards, the first 45 days of the City of Brotherly Love’s shutdown was estimated to have avoided about 57,000 hospitalizations and 6,200 deaths.

Keeping the city hunkered down until May 22 would be even better, preventing 68,000 hospitalizations and saving 7,100 lives.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/drexel-model-estimates-philadelphias-coronavirus-lockdown-saved-6200-lives-20200512.html

 

I'm not gonna even read the article, but let's say it is true. 

Do you realise how many more lives could have be saved with other measures not covid related? Throw the money spend on covid measures on any other thing and more lives would have be saved from any other disease. 

Also, try to google some of the healthcare effects. And see how many more deaths may be caused because people dont vaccinate, dont go to doctor, didnt have access to healthcare.