Beyoncé

[Rio 5,088]

28 minutes ago, Didymus said:

At least half of the lyrics could apply to anyone though...

  Reveal hidden contents

"I see it, I want it
I stunt, yellow bone it
I dream it, I work hard
I grind 'til I own it
I twirl on them haters

,..

I go hard, I go hard
Get what's mine, take what's mine
I'm a star, I'm a star
'Cause I slay

...

Okay ladies, now let's get in formation
Prove to me you got some coordination"

She even shouts to the audience during live performances: do you slay? That's how everyone who enjoys the song sees the song: as a self-empowerment song rather than a Beyoncé glorification song. So no, I don't think your point is valid here.

There's songs like Gaga's Speechless, Marry the Night, Bloody Mary, Heavy Metal Lover, Yoü and I, The Queen, Aura, Venus, Jewels N' Drugs, Donatella, Mary Jane Holland, Dope, Gypsy, Applause, Diamond Heart, Joanne, Sinner's Prayer, Grigio Girls,... that are 100% about herself and are almost impossible to relate to as an outsider in a straightforward way and I still relate to them in my own way and I think that's such a basic, common sense approach to enjoying music, it shouldn't even require explanation I'm still baffled you're even trying to create an argument in that direction, as if Beyoncé is doing something wrong by telling stories about herself and trying to empower others through them. She's not.

That's not true She has so many stories of how she surprised her fans. There's her well-known Walmart Christmas gift card surprise, there's her much discussed FaceTime call with terminally ill Ebony, she sang specially for the terminally ill Taylon as well as for Chelsea, who she planned to meet afterwards as well and whose family she famously gave 90 white roses with a handwritten note when she passed. Chelsea's mom was blown away by how Beyoncé kept in touch with them before and after Chelsea's death.

She's a pop star. She behaves like a professional and doesn't need to use slimy and exaggerated "I love my fans" drama to appear worth listening to. Beyoncé puts on an amazing show and gives people what they came for: excellent vocals, dancing and stage production. They don't come for a speech about how grateful Beyoncé is for them to be there So if her fans aren't interested in that kind of lame, unnecessary behavior, why should we judge her for not displaying it?

All of your "she hasn't literally said she doesn't want to be called a queen, so she must want to be called that way" is complete rubbish, sorry That's not building up a strong argument, that's just making very unnecessary comparisons that have almost no worth in terms of content. Just look up interviews with her dancers, do your research. Plenty of people have come forward to say Beyoncé is very humble and friendly behind the scenes and a joy to work with, no diva behavior whatsoever. So, again, you're missing the mark hardcore.

Omg though Again, totally unfair. The actual DC members tell a different story so you can't possibly use that and try to sound clever... The ward rumor is just a rumor ffs, I can't believe you're using that against her

Compared to someone like Grimes Gaga is just as "inauthentic" as Beyoncé tbh Gaga can easily do everything on her own based on her talent but she chooses to rely on a host of co-writers and co-producers and has no problem paying for fully finished instrumentals to sing over while pretending she did it on her own And then there's the now infamous TIHTY incident in which she gave herself a co-writing credit when she and Diane knew full well she only changed one sentence (if she even did that, as Diane's latest interview casts doubt even upon that). How does that not mirror your "Beyoncé gave herself a writing credit because of melody changes" accusation?

If Sia and almost every other person who worked with her says Beyoncé is heavily involved in her artistry and continuously brings to the table her own creative ideas, if Prince commended Beyoncé on her incredible musical knowledge and gifts, there's no doubt in my mind she's a true artist as well. There's no shame in relying on other artistic visionaires to filter through your own creative vision. Beyoncé does it, Gaga does it (heck, Gaga just took someone else's concept for her own Vegas show, scrapping her own original concept, how is that not enough for you?), every pop star does it. If Gaga was actually serious about her "I'll go back to singing in bars if I can't do what I want as an artist" she would've done it a long time ago already. But she's not that bothered about authenticity, that's the truth. And that's fine, she's a pop star ffs. But then don't expect Beyoncé to be some kind of saint

Why is a non-Monster on GGD, may I ask? lmao

[Didymus 32,778]

11 minutes ago, Rio said:

Why is a non-Monster on GGD, may I ask? lmao

How did you get from my post that I was not a Monster though?

[Rio 5,088]

10 hours ago, Didymus said:

How did you get from my post that I was not a Monster though?

Just seem to b unnecessarily dissing Gaga. I'm all here for non-biased discussion but that seemed a bit much. I shouldn't presume though 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Didymus 32,778]

19 minutes ago, Rio said:

Just seem to b unnecessarily dissing Gaga. I'm all here for non-biased discussion but that seemed a bit much. I shouldn't presume though 🤷🏼‍♂️

I only mentioned Gaga to mean that it would also be unfair to judge Gaga the way that member was judging Beyoncé. So that means... I don't judge Gaga that way I guess you missed that implication. But then again, I literally wrote: "That's digging for something negative, but it's not fair and definitely not objective" after my comments about Gaga, so... that clearly means I don't think those criticisms of Gaga would be valid

Anyway, I get it. I have a bad reputation among a lot of members here. I really don't feel like I deserve it though. I hope I can change your mind some time

[Nero 860]

I don't mind Beyoncé in general, good for her for getting the accomplishments that she achieved so far, I just don't like the idea of the media and tabloids treating her like she's the second coming of Jesus, she's a human being like each and every one of us.

 

Her music is okay imo but I just don't like the Hive, takes every criticism with a grain of salt

[arrtpop 2,751]

b never told fans to treat her like god, her fans did it. who cares if she never told them to stop? she’s never said she likes it, if anything she’s shown she hasn’t, with projecting “god is god and i am not” or something like that during the formation tour. she’s proven she’s humble and is involved in her artistry countless times. look at the coachella doc, i’m not sure how else she could possibly prove it. 

that being said, the hive is definitely top three worst fanbases ever imo and make it VERY hard to be a fan of hers.

[Rio 5,088]

1 hour ago, Didymus said:

I only mentioned Gaga to mean that it would also be unfair to judge Gaga the way that member was judging Beyoncé. So that means... I don't judge Gaga that way I guess you missed that implication. But then again, I literally wrote: "That's digging for something negative, but it's not fair and definitely not objective" after my comments about Gaga, so... that clearly means I don't think those criticisms of Gaga would be valid

Anyway, I get it. I have a bad reputation among a lot of members here. I really don't feel like I deserve it though. I hope I can change your mind some time

My reputation on here is also pretty shabby. High five!

[StrawberryBlond 13,303]

19 hours ago, Didymus said:

At least half of the lyrics could apply to anyone though...

  Reveal hidden contents

"I see it, I want it
I stunt, yellow bone it
I dream it, I work hard
I grind 'til I own it
I twirl on them haters

,..

I go hard, I go hard
Get what's mine, take what's mine
I'm a star, I'm a star
'Cause I slay

...

Okay ladies, now let's get in formation
Prove to me you got some coordination"

She even shouts to the audience during live performances: do you slay? That's how everyone who enjoys the song sees the song: as a self-empowerment song rather than a Beyoncé glorification song. So no, I don't think your point is valid here.

There's songs like Gaga's Speechless, Marry the Night, Bloody Mary, Heavy Metal Lover, Yoü and I, The Queen, Aura, Venus, Jewels N' Drugs, Donatella, Mary Jane Holland, Dope, Gypsy, Applause, Diamond Heart, Joanne, Sinner's Prayer, Grigio Girls,... that are 100% about herself and are almost impossible to relate to as an outsider in a straightforward way and I still relate to them in my own way and I think that's such a basic, common sense approach to enjoying music, it shouldn't even require explanation I'm still baffled you're even trying to create an argument in that direction, as if Beyoncé is doing something wrong by telling stories about herself and trying to empower others through them. She's not.

That's not true She has so many stories of how she surprised her fans. There's her well-known Walmart Christmas gift card surprise, there's her much discussed FaceTime call with terminally ill Ebony, she sang specially for the terminally ill Taylon as well as for Chelsea, who she planned to meet afterwards as well and whose family she famously gave 90 white roses with a handwritten note when she passed. Chelsea's mom was blown away by how Beyoncé kept in touch with them before and after Chelsea's death.

She's a pop star. She behaves like a professional and doesn't need to use slimy and exaggerated "I love my fans" drama to appear worth listening to. Beyoncé puts on an amazing show and gives people what they came for: excellent vocals, dancing and stage production. They don't come for a speech about how grateful Beyoncé is for them to be there So if her fans aren't interested in that kind of lame, unnecessary behavior, why should we judge her for not displaying it?

All of your "she hasn't literally said she doesn't want to be called a queen, so she must want to be called that way" is complete rubbish, sorry That's not building up a strong argument, that's just making very unnecessary comparisons that have almost no worth in terms of content. Just look up interviews with her dancers, do your research. Plenty of people have come forward to say Beyoncé is very humble and friendly behind the scenes and a joy to work with, no diva behavior whatsoever. So, again, you're missing the mark hardcore.

Omg though Again, totally unfair. The actual DC members tell a different story so you can't possibly use that and try to sound clever... The ward rumor is just a rumor ffs, I can't believe you're using that against her

Compared to someone like Grimes Gaga is just as "inauthentic" as Beyoncé tbh Gaga can easily do everything on her own based on her talent but she chooses to rely on a host of co-writers and co-producers and has no problem paying for fully finished instrumentals to sing over while pretending she did it on her own And then there's the now infamous TIHTY incident in which she gave herself a co-writing credit when she and Diane knew full well she only changed one sentence (if she even did that, as Diane's latest interview casts doubt even upon that). How does that not mirror your "Beyoncé gave herself a writing credit because of melody changes" accusation?

If Sia and almost every other person who worked with her says Beyoncé is heavily involved in her artistry and continuously brings to the table her own creative ideas, if Prince commended Beyoncé on her incredible musical knowledge and gifts, there's no doubt in my mind she's a true artist as well. There's no shame in relying on other artistic visionaires to filter through your own creative vision. Beyoncé does it, Gaga does it (heck, Gaga just took someone else's concept for her own Vegas show, scrapping her own original concept, how is that not enough for you?), every pop star does it. If Gaga was actually serious about her "I'll go back to singing in bars if I can't do what I want as an artist" she would've done it a long time ago already. But she's not that bothered about authenticity, that's the truth. And that's fine, she's a pop star ffs. But then don't expect Beyoncé to be some kind of saint

I don't think many people are in  a situation where they can take what's theirs and be a star, though. It's a very overblown self-empowerment anthem that is only going to appeal to those with a certain level of confidence to begin with. Sure, I too can warp songs to make me relate to them as well but I still acknowledge at the end of the day that this wasn't the song's true intention to mean what I want it to mean.

The point is that Beyonce has always distanced herself from her fans, she keeps them at arms length (some people speculate that it's because she knows a lot of them are nuts). Even if she focuses on specific ones, you don't see her connect with her live audience in the way that other artists do. It's all about putting on a very rehearsed show but not really taking in who she's performing too other than the most basic "put your hands in the air" platitudes that everyone does. I can feel Gaga's heart and soul when she performs and all I get from Beyonce is well oiled perfection performance but not much else. Maybe her fans do want more but they've never had it. Maybe they don't know how much they might like it? It's nice for a fan to know that their fave cares and makes them feel like they matter.

I already mentioned earlier on that Beyonce has given more than enough audio and visual clues that she thinks she's a queen and wants everyone else to view her that way. Lyrics to Ego, Diva, Run The World, Bow Down/I Been On, Flawless, Formation, etc are all very narcissistic and there's the very explicit visual cues of writing King Bey on the mirror on the cover art for Best Thing I Never Had and dressing up as a 16th century French queen with servants for her O2 concert tickets ad. She had absolutely no reason to present herself in this way either, she wanted to be seen as a queen. And of course people who currently work for her are hardly going to badmouth her, are they? That's just positive PR. Beyonce makes diva demands everywhere she goes, she expects only the best of the best and she wasn't always like that either. I think Jay taught her bad habits. I heard quite a funny story from my friend who knows someone who works at the Irish stadium where Beyonce did one of her Formation dates and everyone was involved was told not to kick water on a specific section during Freedom because it would soak expensive equipment. The organisers ended up suing her (not her dancers, just her) because she disobeyed the rules and the equipment needed to be replaced. Apparently she was outraged and handed the money over very reluctantly. I think that points towards what kind of person she is - doesn't listen to instructions, sees them as things that the little people have to follow and isn't used to being called out for doing wrong. And the ex members of DC have sad stories of betrayal to tell. And the photos of the closed-off ward and the stories from new parents who were refused entry suggest it wasn't rumour.

Gaga's occasional moments of uninvolvement can't compare to Beyonce's, though. I don't know how anyone can even compare the two as they couldn't be more different in their creative approach. And Gaga has never pretended that something was hers, she just used a completed instrumental, one song like that doesn't make you a fake. But she's never flat out said she made something she didn't or put her name on something she had no involvement in. The TIHTY is probably the only thing I'd say was a valid example. I'm actually glad that wasn't her first Oscar win as it would have tainted things. I was never that keen on that song anyway, much as I liked the message. But still, an actual line change is better than a melody change (or is that more vocal change?)

I think those people are just being a bit overblown and were actively trying to suck up to her when they praised her artistry. She wouldn't have as many writers on her work if it was all her vision. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just the vibe I get, considering everything. I think when Gaga said that she'd go back to bars if she couldn't do what she wanted, I think she was meaning if her label point blank told her what to write about, present herself, when she could release, making her work like a dog, etc. It never got that bad and her new team are letting her do what she wants, so she doesn't need to keep that promise. And I don't really like Gaga being called nothing more than a popstar, she's way more than that. She can do any genre and her music is on a different level to most other artists. I also don't believe that we should accept less from popstars in every respect. And I'm not asking Beyonce to be a saint, rather, I wish she would acknowledge her flaws and be more real.

[Whispering 18,865]

Eh, it’s no more than the Gaga hate here (as shown here in this very thread). 

Just accept that people are going to call this era a flop, enjoy the music if you enjoy it, and ignore the rest. 

[Didymus 32,778]

3 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I don't think many people are in  a situation where they can take what's theirs and be a star, though. It's a very overblown self-empowerment anthem that is only going to appeal to those with a certain level of confidence to begin with.

So what?

3 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

The point is that Beyonce has always distanced herself from her fans, she keeps them at arms length (some people speculate that it's because she knows a lot of them are nuts).

Most pop stars do that. And tbh, I prefer it. Pop stars are entertainers, not therapists. If I pay to see a show I wanna see a show, not a monologue about how nice it is that I'm there. I know I'm there. Now entertain me

I get that that's different per artist but when it comes to Beyoncé, no one in the audience wants her to start off on a big "I love you so much" spree anyway, so I still don't understand why you use it to criticize her

Your own preference for an artist who connects with the audience is legitimate but so is mine and the hundreds of thousands of people who have seen Beyoncé live and gone home thinking they've witnessed an incredible show. You can voice your own opinion and taste, but that has nothing to do with the capability or respectability of Beyoncé herself

5 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I already mentioned earlier on that Beyonce has given more than enough audio and visual clues that she thinks she's a queen and wants everyone else to view her that way. Lyrics to Ego, Diva, Run The World, Bow Down/I Been On, Flawless, Formation, etc are all very narcissistic and there's the very explicit visual cues of writing King Bey on the mirror on the cover art for Best Thing I Never Had and dressing up as a 16th century French queen with servants for her O2 concert tickets ad. She had absolutely no reason to present herself in this way either, she wanted to be seen as a queen. And of course people who currently work for her are hardly going to badmouth her, are they?

You're seriously gonna base your entire analysis on lyrics alone? Sure, people who work with her aren't gonna slam her but saying she's humble is no requirement. Why wouldn't they be able to say "she's a hard worker and demands a lot, but it's an honor" etc.? Why the humble thing? It's too specific. I'm not surprised you pretend those statements are hollow though. Just another example of you choosing not to  be objective.

If we judge Gaga based on her lyrics she can appear as either a fame, sex and/or drug addict, a masochist who submits her power to men,... Don't pretend we can't play that game with any other artist

The French queen ad was obviously a political statement related to her skin color. Like... that's the whole dimension of her self-empowerment you seem to be missing and it's shocking because it's so obvious and instantly recognizable Again: if we analyzed Gaga's visuals that way we'd learn that she hates men (as she constantly kills them in her mv's) or that she likes to be vomited on. Like... no. That's not how it works.

15 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Gaga's occasional moments of uninvolvement can't compare to Beyonce's, though. I don't know how anyone can even compare the two as they couldn't be more different in their creative approach.

They do work differently. But I can easily play the same game in the other direction: I don't know how anyone can even compare Gaga to a real singer-songwriter slash solo producer like Grimes as they couldn't be more different in their creative approach

I'm not saying that to put Gaga down, I'm just saying that compared to Grimes Gaga is just a little more artistically authentic than Beyoncé. Only in the pathetic realm of female pop stars (I have to laugh) does Gaga look like an impressive creative writer. Compare her to someone like St. Vincent and the whole picture falls apart. So if you're trying to tear down Beyoncé for not being an artist, then Gaga inadvertently gets torn apart by the very same logic. Gaga has every opportunity to do things by herself and yet she still chooses to work with an army of co-writers and even pays for other people's songs because apparently she's not creative enough to come up with her own instrumentals. You can't possibly justify that and then put a magnifying lens on Beyoncé giving herself a writing credit for a melody change when you know damn well from professionals who have worked with her that she is intensely creatively involved in every single aspect of her work

20 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I'm not asking Beyonce to be a saint, rather, I wish she would acknowledge her flaws and be more real.

She'd rather be a storyteller and I thank her for it.

[Smother Em Eh 6,825]

No one is dragging her, just her horrible fan base. 

Lets be real most people love her and even if they don’t, they don’t really “hate” on her. It’s hard to hate on a gorgeous, powerful and entertaining woman like herself. And I’m not even much of a fan. 

[StrawberryBlond 13,303]

2 hours ago, Didymus said:

So what?

Most pop stars do that. And tbh, I prefer it. Pop stars are entertainers, not therapists. If I pay to see a show I wanna see a show, not a monologue about how nice it is that I'm there. I know I'm there. Now entertain me

I get that that's different per artist but when it comes to Beyoncé, no one in the audience wants her to start off on a big "I love you so much" spree anyway, so I still don't understand why you use it to criticize her

Your own preference for an artist who connects with the audience is legitimate but so is mine and the hundreds of thousands of people who have seen Beyoncé live and gone home thinking they've witnessed an incredible show. You can voice your own opinion and taste, but that has nothing to do with the capability or respectability of Beyoncé herself

You're seriously gonna base your entire analysis on lyrics alone? Sure, people who work with her aren't gonna slam her but saying she's humble is no requirement. Why wouldn't they be able to say "she's a hard worker and demands a lot, but it's an honor" etc.? Why the humble thing? It's too specific. I'm not surprised you pretend those statements are hollow though. Just another example of you choosing not to  be objective.

If we judge Gaga based on her lyrics she can appear as either a fame, sex and/or drug addict, a masochist who submits her power to men,... Don't pretend we can't play that game with any other artist

The French queen ad was obviously a political statement related to her skin color. Like... that's the whole dimension of her self-empowerment you seem to be missing and it's shocking because it's so obvious and instantly recognizable Again: if we analyzed Gaga's visuals that way we'd learn that she hates men (as she constantly kills them in her mv's) or that she likes to be vomited on. Like... no. That's not how it works.

They do work differently. But I can easily play the same game in the other direction: I don't know how anyone can even compare Gaga to a real singer-songwriter slash solo producer like Grimes as they couldn't be more different in their creative approach

I'm not saying that to put Gaga down, I'm just saying that compared to Grimes Gaga is just a little more artistically authentic than Beyoncé. Only in the pathetic realm of female pop stars (I have to laugh) does Gaga look like an impressive creative writer. Compare her to someone like St. Vincent and the whole picture falls apart. So if you're trying to tear down Beyoncé for not being an artist, then Gaga inadvertently gets torn apart by the very same logic. Gaga has every opportunity to do things by herself and yet she still chooses to work with an army of co-writers and even pays for other people's songs because apparently she's not creative enough to come up with her own instrumentals. You can't possibly justify that and then put a magnifying lens on Beyoncé giving herself a writing credit for a melody change when you know damn well from professionals who have worked with her that she is intensely creatively involved in every single aspect of her work

She'd rather be a storyteller and I thank her for it.

I don't really think you'll be able to convince me so we'd be better off leaving it there. But just know that I do like some Beyonce songs, it's just I've yet to think they've ever made a truly cohesively awesome body of work. Her debut album was the only one that I thought was above average (I know, most people are flabbergasted at this admission and don't understand it either, especially as I don't even like Crazy In Love). But I at least think her last 3 solo albums were decent and she's only made one bad album (B'Day) in her career, which isn't bad for an artist that I, suffice to say, am not keen on. Just know that I don't hate on her for the sake of it or out of jealously, which you had stated previously. Trust me, if there's anyone I'm jealous of for their artistic output, it's Gaga but when it comes to people I'm jealous of, I tend to like them because obviously, I want to be them! I just take music very seriously and can be a very harsh critic of it because I care that I much about quality. My critique about Beyonce as a person is as independent from my review of her music as possible, unless they overlap. Which they just so happen to do a lot.