Quebec bans religious symbols in public sector jobs

[Didymus 34,380]

1 hour ago, Guillaume Hamon said:

People with sign of a religious sign normally don't wear it without agreeing with the messages it includes except maybe for a very tiny proportion of people that wouldn't be respectful with the religion. But I don't think the folks we were talking about were this handful of idiots. 

The messages it includes smh. So vague. You only display my hypothesis, really: bans like this create the impression that there is only one Muslim while it would actually be a good thing to show that, through people engaging with people who dress in "traditional Islamic wear" in their every day lives, Muslims are actually all different people who should be judged individually.

That's my stance anyway, we're clearly not gonna convince each other and that's fine. I'm just very troubled by this idea that separating an individual from his clothes is difficult or unnecessary in some way, it's really not.

[Guillaume Hamon 6,982]

17 hours ago, Didymus said:

The messages it includes smh. So vague. You only display my hypothesis, really: bans like this create the impression that there is only one Muslim while it would actually be a good thing to show that, through people engaging with people who dress in "traditional Islamic wear" in their every day lives, Muslims are actually all different people who should be judged individually.

That's my stance anyway, we're clearly not gonna convince each other and that's fine. I'm just very troubled by this idea that separating an individual from his clothes is difficult or unnecessary in some way, it's really not.

I  think it's very clear and not vague at all but as you said we don't see things the same way and that's okay.   

No it's not about saying that people believing in a religion ( you only  speak about muslims and  headscarfs but I talked about any religion and symbols going with it ) all think the same way, its obvious they don't.

It's about what supporting a religion logically represent whatever the personal arrangement they made with it. Now if people take parts of a religion and not others like if it was a menu that's their right but, to me, showing your link to a religion is logically showing your link to what it stands at the end of the day.

I don't think it's bans that create this vision, its what many people find logical and bans follow this thinking imo.

[Didymus 34,380]

25 minutes ago, Guillaume Hamon said:

I don't think it's bans that create this vision, its what many people find logical and bans follow this thinking imo. 

But logic can change. A few decades ago piercings and tattoos were seen as undisputable signs of anarchists, gang members or the unemployed. That reputation changed. Not because people's "logic" changed but because these things became more visible and people's views corrected themselves over time when it was clear that these things were actually not connected with those ideas.

By banning religious symbols and dress we're not giving those things the same opportunities to change, and that's a shame because you admit it yourself, that's the joke: there are no two Muslims or Christians alike, everyone makes their own personal connection with a religious symbol. But then you still maintain that we should ignore this and focus on the symbol itself. Sounds like you would've supported the bans of people with tats and piercings a few decades ago too then...

[Guillaume Hamon 6,982]

22 hours ago, Didymus said:

when it was clear that these things were actually not connected with those ideas.

That's always the same thing, that's where we disagree on the fact there is no connection lol.

22 hours ago, Didymus said:

that's a shame because you admit it yourself...everyone makes their own personal connection with a religious symbol.

There is what you think and what you show support to.

But again I guess we agree to disagree since you don't see it as a support and I do. Yeah they can have their own arrangement that partially respect the message of their religion but when they visibly link themselves with a religion it's a religion they show support to, not a mix of this religion and other beliefs out this religion.

22 hours ago, Didymus said:

But logic can change. A few decades ago piercings and tattoos were seen as undisputable signs of anarchists, gang members or the unemployed.

 From the get go it was possibly meaning everything according to the owner. Religion is not suddenly having its symbols meaning whatever the owner want it to mean imo.

 

[Didymus 34,380]

28 minutes ago, Guillaume Hamon said:

Yeah they can have their own arrangement that partially respect the message of their religion but when they visibly link themselves with a religion it's a religion they show support to, not a mix of this religion and other beliefs out this religion.

All religions are way too varied and internally divided for such a statement though. That sort of thinking just comes from a lack of awareness about what these religions actually are and how they manifest in the world, even in one country.

Islamic feminism has been on the rise for decades now, that's just one example. Is it, then, really fair to keep re-establishing this idea of Islam as fundamentally anti-woman (just an example) when things are moving within the religion?

Or Christianity? Can we seriously still assume that everyone who wears a rosary wants gays to burn in hell? No, because we've come to understand that not all Christians think that way. We then already make a distinction between a religious symbol and a variety of modern interpretations. But somehow people don't wanna do that to Islam. That's lame.

[Guillaume Hamon 6,982]

On 6/25/2019 at 10:56 AM, Didymus said:

All religions are way too varied and internally divided for such a statement though.That sort of thinking just comes from a lack of awareness about what these religions actually are and how they manifest in the world, even in one country.

Divided on certain points yes but at the end of the day religions stand very clearly on a large number of things so it's not like if it was divided to the point it's not standing for certain beliefs. It does even if it has some points debated. It's not "varied" to the point it's open to any view etc. It does stand on many things clearly so it does represent a gathering of beliefs to me.

On 6/25/2019 at 10:56 AM, Didymus said:

Islamic feminism has been on the rise for decades now, that's just one example. Is it, then, really fair to keep re-establishing this idea of Islam as fundamentally anti-woman (just an example) when things are moving within the religion?

Scriptures never change except if they decide to do a "new testament" with a different message so supporting the religion is supporting the original message imo.

People can mix their religion with other views  but the religion is based on scriptures and personal positions from some believers don't change the religion's bases therefore what it will always stand for.
It change the way they see things but the religion  still has the same message.

On 6/25/2019 at 10:56 AM, Didymus said:

Or Christianity? Can we seriously still assume that everyone who wears a rosary wants gays to burn in hell? No, because we've come to understand that not all Christians think that way.

Folks understood that from the get go I believe except from some idiots who generalized them all.

 The Bible doesn't have good words for the homosexuals so, whatever the wearer personal stand on homosexuality is, a rosary represent that to me.  I understand it's not the case for you but that's my view.

On 6/25/2019 at 10:56 AM, Didymus said:

We then already make a distinction between a religious symbol and a variety of modern interpretations. But somehow people don't wanna do that to Islam. That's lame.

Well I agree that you have to apply the same vision on the subject (whatever which one it is) for all religion to be fair and that's what I do as you saw.

Sorry not trying to be rude but you said it was okay that we would not convince each other yet you keep repeating your vision of these symbols making me repeating mine again and again so I'm a bit tired of answering lol!  It's okay that we don't think the same way and at this point it's just re-phrasing the same idea.

Thanks for your insight. :*