Shadow 6,707 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 37 minutes ago, Didymus said: It allows for it but makes sure it never manifests though. So you agree capitalism allows freedom, but then it doesn't? Something is in demand, the market supllies it, right? Rather than a government stepping in, forcing a product that isn't in demand or restricting a product that is? Did you know in Cuba, beef is restricted? Ever enjoyed a steak? Did you know Venezuela used to be one of the most prosperous nations in South America and now people can't even get basic essentials? Capitalism isn't the best, but it gives people choices and generates wealth that social policies depend on to tax and fund government programs. Stand in the light, cast your shadow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpmonster 22,412 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 6 hours ago, Shadow said: Capitalism allows freedom, though. Give up freedom China style, and it might take hundreds of years to get it back. Good luck, kids! China barely qualifies as communist. It was authoritarian socialism (and you can have authoritarian capitalism too) and is now pretty neoliberal capitalist except with an authoritarian government. Leftism can be libertarian (anarcho-communism), right wing politics can be authoritarian (i.e. fascism, Nazism). There can be balances with most civil freedoms as in regulated capitalism and social democracies (or democratic socialism as some call it). The US isn't 100% "free" either. There are many rights you don't have. For example, the right to discriminate as a private business. Capitalists want that right and think the Civil Rights Act isn't fair. But it helps citizens (at the expense of rights). Check out iTunes data & graphs at CHARTPOP.live Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpmonster 22,412 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 31 minutes ago, Shadow said: Something is in demand, the market supllies it, right? Rather than a government stepping in, forcing a product that isn't in demand or restricting a product that is? That's absolutely not how things work and is a capitalist's fantasy dream. Case in point: women's clothing that actually fits and caters to the sizes of most women. The demand isn't for clothes and sizes meant for model type bodies and yet most stores carry that. People can't just refuse it by not buying clothes. The capitalist will say "why don't you make your own clothes and sell them? It's a free market." Answer: costs to start a business are often prohibitively high (in many industries) and thus, it's virtually impossible for competition to spring up. Free capitalism leads to cronyism: corporations controlling everything. The "market" doesn't get any power to influence products to a great degree when corporations can simply dictate their own interests and very easily block competition. It's happened to the point where the US has had to break up companies. Capitalists cry overreach. I would also like to point out that leftism does not simply mean a government swooping in and doing stuff. Check out iTunes data & graphs at CHARTPOP.live Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus 34,380 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 1 hour ago, derpmonster said: Free capitalism leads to cronyism: corporations controlling everything. The "market" doesn't get any power to influence products to a great degree when corporations can simply dictate their own interests and very easily block competition. It's happened to the point where the US has had to break up companies. Capitalists cry overreach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus 34,380 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Shadow said: Capitalism isn't the best, but it gives people choices and generates wealth that social policies depend on to tax and fund government programs. It only offers the illusion of choice though Sure, we can choose between 20 different brands of yogurt at every supermarket but that's like saying a caged animal is free because it can choose in which corner of his cage he takes a nap When it comes to the big choices in our lives, capitalist society limits us at every turn and subtly pressures us to become like cattle whose "free decisions" are actually calculable and predictable to the benefit of corporations and to the detriment of us. Just a thought experiment. Capitalist society theoretically offers us all this freedom but what are the majority of people doing with that freedom? Engaging in meaningful activities that we find personally fulfilling? No. People living in capitalist societies are trained to think of "free time" as an occasion to spend their hard-won money on whatever entertainment society has organized for us. It is capitalist governments and corporations, then, that organize and put their defining stamp on both our work life ánd our personal life, and it's happening in front of our eyes without us even noticing it. It's a never-ending wheel. We are pushed to not just earn but save money in a never-ending curve of financial expansion while we are also pushed to spend that same money on things we don't need (under the illusion of "free choice", aided by expensive corporate campaigns designed to manipulate us psychologically, incl. that same desire for freedom and individuality), obeying the financial cues that are set in stone before we're born (like the social pressure to buy a house, which is a completely useless financial investment in today's market as you're almost guaranteed to lose money even if you sell it at a higher price than set at the time of purchase). The worst thing is: capitalist society is quick. There is a whole market now for the avant-garde, for anarchist-leaning individuals, for people who self-identify as "alternative". Everytime something original and unique, even in the form of protest, jumps up out of the social collective, corporations jump on it, appropriate it and disguise a highly commercialized version as the real thing. The most dangerous thing is: capitalist society is so uncatchable. It's invisible yet it pervades everything. It starts when you apply for a job. Simple thing, you think. Nope. You need an officially sanctioned home address, a bank account, an e-mail address or phone connection, and social security to even apply. That's several major commitments you are forced to take on board for as simple a thing as a work wage. If you skip out on any of them you are not allowed to work and can become no part of the system whatsoever. So much for freedom. Under the disguise of choice and opportunity there is always an elaborate system of absolute control. Sure, we can all say "but isn't it logical that you need a bank account to get a job?" etc. but it's only logical within our specific societal system but it definitely isn't logical anywhere outside of it. That means it's a spellbinding paradigm creating an illusion of universality and "common sense" which makes it a lot more powerful. When you break it down our governments hold the reins in just about every aspect of our lives. In fact, that aspect of invisible central control is what authoritarian regimes outside of the Western borders found so interesting about Western capitalist state organization, and they incorporated those insights into their own rotten societies, leading to the abysmally disastrous rulings of people like Hussein's and ISIS' which were basically hybrids of Western capitalist state formation ánd religious authoritarianism. Isn't that fascinating? People living in capitalist societies think capitalism means freedom, and people from the outside looking in see capitalism as the most perfected way to control entire populations. That says it all, I think. Anyway, sorry for the vomiting. But yeah, that's really what I believe. If capitalism was so free it would make no secret about finding a way out of it. It would include the option of NOT contributing to capitalism and simply stepping away after you've made enough money for yourself. It does not. There is no way out of capitalism and people who have grown up in capitalist societies can't even imagine living without it. That's its most impressive and most frightening stage trick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus 34,380 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Anyway, @derpmonster said it 1000x better than I ever could. There are also countless other examples of our governments criminalizing things that should be up for grabs in a system allowing free choice. Cue the endless debate about the legalization of weed that's getting endlessly shut down by political leaders despite a mass of revolutionary medical evidence showing its benefits and potential. Meanwhile every ad on tv is shoving cancer producing alcoholic and sugar-on-overload products in our throats and those same leaders stay quiet It's easy to say products are in demand when that demand is being artificially manufactured. Meanwhile an alarmingly growing number of not just adults but also young adults (even teenagers) is suffering from anxiety, depression and actual full-blown burn-outs because they can't handle the pressure of a mere existence in Western society anymore. Clearly the free choices and opportunities handed to us are not harmless gifts. The hypothesis of there being a "choice overload" or people struggling with the amount of free choice delivered by capitalist society has been overturned by almost every scientific study conducted. It's not the amount of available choices that is burdening up and coming generations, it's the constantly palpable "pressure" they feel exerted upon themselves by an invisible but definitely real authoritarian force to "perform" and "work" everywhere, from their jobs to their online presence on Facebook and countless other communication channels, to how they choose their outfits, hair and make-up, to establishing their sense of taste and subcultural identity, to how they walk and talk The pressure of society's overall demand for all of us to be completely formed individuals with our own sense of style, taste, opinions, overall uniqueness and a truckload of commercially purchasable objects to prove we have these things (what the average citizen calls "freedom" as provided by a capitalist lifestyle) is actually causing young people to break down completely. And what does the majority say? "They can't handle it", "they don't understand the opportunities handed to them"; "they don't know they're living the good life"; "something must be wrong with their mental state". The problems produced by capitalism are always thrown on the shoulders of the individual, adding even more pressure, fear of failure and overall mental fatigue. Who exactly is benefiting from this situation? The answer's obvious Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woolfsmck 2,763 Posted March 12, 2019 Author Share Posted March 12, 2019 Toi long to quote everything.. . Point. Large corporations are checked and split to keep them from monopolizing that segment of the free market. I agree when s monopolistic element is controlling the market, freedom and opportunity are diminished.. Keeping a free market competitively balanced is/should be the goal of Gov. Policy as to ensure maximum productivity and innovation.... In doing so, a greater portion of said society benifits.... Simply cutting back on successful entrepreneurship because others are failing leads to flight/depression and a failed state. like a cat in a sil, I observe life, moving and still. My words give a clue,look inside to see whats true Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woolfsmck 2,763 Posted March 12, 2019 Author Share Posted March 12, 2019 Point... Saying capitalism isn't freedom because you can't find the right women's clothing or afford to start your own company makes no sense to me...???? like a cat in a sil, I observe life, moving and still. My words give a clue,look inside to see whats true Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woolfsmck 2,763 Posted March 12, 2019 Author Share Posted March 12, 2019 Point..those outside looking in and not seeing freedom.... I'm inside looming out and don't see any other that is preferable at this moment.... Feels more like sours grapes than guidance for improvement.. Even hard line socialist dominated countries allow some private enterprise now.. like a cat in a sil, I observe life, moving and still. My words give a clue,look inside to see whats true Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moebius 8,965 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 6:08 PM, Economy said: It's what created the industrial revolution that started in the US then spread to rest of the world The industrial revolution started in Britain...☠️ The Most Popular Girls in School megarate is cancelled! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benji 20,113 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 Maybe it’s because I’ve grown up with it but I personally like what the U.K. has, it’s capitalism but offers free health care and has social housing and benefits for those that can’t work. Although everything could be implemented and ran better, I think it’s the perfect balance of incentive to work and freedom but support for if you fall on hard times. We need capatalism to be successful and free but we need support for those that it leaves behind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woolfsmck 2,763 Posted March 13, 2019 Author Share Posted March 13, 2019 32 minutes ago, Moebius said: The industrial revolution started in Britain...☠️ And central europe France and Getmany contributed to modernized manufacturing like a cat in a sil, I observe life, moving and still. My words give a clue,look inside to see whats true Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARTCHAOS 1,687 Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 14 hours ago, Didymus said: The hypothesis of there being a "choice overload" or people struggling with the amount of free choice delivered by capitalist society has been overturned by almost every scientific study conducted. It's not the amount of available choices that is burdening up and coming generations, it's the constantly palpable "pressure" they feel exerted upon themselves by an invisible but definitely real authoritarian force to "perform" and "work" everywhere, from their jobs to their online presence on Facebook and countless other communication channels, to how they choose their outfits, hair and make-up, to establishing their sense of taste and subcultural identity, to how they walk and talk That invisible but definitely real authoritarian force to "perform" is called society, not capitalism If there's companies that can led you to buy a product without putting a knife in your neck, is because is how human works, the same reason why people people follow Kim Kardashian. Its all within marketing, wich is a social science. That doesn't mean companies control masses. I think it's actually worse in countries with a harsh social control (wich exist in every country), where you need to dress or have your hair like this, or simply be like this, societies where everyone is the same in a individual scale, with all social implications (economy, politics, culture). The perfet example is North and South Korea, with opossite economic systems they both have a homogeneous model of what society should be. P.D.: There's also studies that say that a competitive ambient is better for development. And is the first time i hear that term, what countries do you consider have mitigated socialism systems? i'd like to know Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woolfsmck 2,763 Posted March 13, 2019 Author Share Posted March 13, 2019 "That invisible but definitely real authoritarian force to "perform" is called society, not capitalism" To this statement is on par with the gun control issue.... i.e. guns are bad since people shoot at school kids....errrrrrrr people are bad who shoot guns at school kids.... like a cat in a sil, I observe life, moving and still. My words give a clue,look inside to see whats true Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Featured Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.