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Gaga: "I ran away from Stefani & put on a superhero cape called Lady Gaga"

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giskardsb
22 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Of course not. Why would we be interested in seeing her real self? :diane:

I'm not. I wanna see her imagination, her creativity, her ideas, her dreams, her passions, her mental vomit. I couldn't care less about Stefani. She once seemed to understand that she was interesting exactly because she kept her personal life private, secret even, and just focusing on the art.

That's what pulled a lot of people in, who needed that fantasy and drama in their lives, who understood and appreciated it. I don't get how so many people are surprised we're bored as hell with all this "I just love walking in my garden, feeding my chickens" nonsense. It doesn't mean we don't care about her, it just means we'd rather focus on the work. You know, which once she prided herself on.

but you are wrong if you think she doesn't pride herself on her work now.  But her work has changed.

I'm a different kind of fan  I guess, probably because I'm a rock and jazz guy and generally think pop has way too much poor musicianship and superficial junk.  So that is my background to take into account.  I ignored Gaga because it overwhelming looked like she was all about spectacle.  Until she was a around a while and I finally started unearthing the real musician underneath, thats when I became a fan.   You could say I had to find Stefani in order to appreciate Gaga.  I later grew to appreciate what she does above and beyond her vocal talent, but that has always just been "extra" stuff I can take or leave.

You said earlier that she owed fans an explanation.  I'd say over the last ten years, she has lived her life almost completely in public, she's gone through injuries, mental health issues, relationships, etc, and she's even talked about a lot of these things publicly in various interviews. I don't know what she would say about why she's different now that isn't pretty obvious from evidence and the life changes.   Why would anyone expect her to be the same.

I also think the initial perception by many that she was all fluff and superficiality really affected her.  She IS a true musician, trained, and fantastic at what she does.   Its no surprise she has moved towards ways of emphasizing her musical ability, which she spent years of hard work to develop.   it's also no purprise that the Super Bowl was not a Madonna or Katy spectacle, which she would have done earlier.   Instead it was pop, but emphasized the songs, vocals, and performance ability that is innately Gaga/Stefani.

Now maybe in your mind Gaga could have done that while still maintaining the performance art part, and she probably could have, but the way she has gone about it providing a clean break that says "this is about vocals, not performance art" helped the public get past their preconceptions.  And I don't mean the pop public, I mean the real public, of all demographics, that have accepted her now as a legit, fabulous musician, and have now supported her acting career.

I think many fans just don't like that they don't "own" her anymore.  She is loved by more than her initial pop fan base, on her way to becoming an icon loved for both her music and acting talent, and NOT just because she wears a shitload of clothes and is a "weird" arty girl.  And for the musician and actress named Stefani, THAT is probably all she wanted from age 4.

Edited by giskardsb
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M Monstre
2 minutes ago, Didymus said:

See, that's what I don't like. I already thought of her as an actress, a jazz and a rock singer before 2014 :messga: She already showed us all of those talents. She was already always more than a pop singer, so that doesn't add anything new to the conversation to me. Expanding your performance skills and exploring new media platforms shouldn't mean changing up your entire personality and artistic presentation :interestinga:

 

To you, perhaps, but to the majority of people out there all she was was the "crazy, weird pop star who made 'Just Dance' and 'Bad Romance'". 

As for "changing up her entire personality and artistic presentation", I believe that comes with her ageing. Sure, 32 itself isn't old, but after a literal decade in the music industry, she's changing. That's just normal for a person to do. She's still creative, artistically rebellious, imaginative, etc. That hasn't really shown yet because ASIB was not her project. She was a part of it, but didn't have full artistic control. Once LG6 comes around, she will have free range to do whatever she wants.

3 minutes ago, Didymus said:

100% agreed.

It's just odd that she says that about a jazz cover album and a feature film and not about her own work. Even when counting in the insecurity thing you mentioned, if anything, that shows she may be better thought of as a singer and an actress, and not a musician/artist :duck:

 

I get what you mean, but I just think it's different for Gaga, you know. I mean, we don't know her personal life or even her professional life all that well. There are definitely more things she's not telling us if she has this grandiose statement that says "I ran away from Stefani for so long". She does feel confident with her work, I just think that because she's such a people-person and she loves to have people around her, working intimately with other people is different. She can bounce creative, artistic ideas of off each other, she finds it inspirational in a different way than just writing music by herself. I mean, she also said similar things about Ronson, and that was for her own music. 

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Didymus
1 minute ago, OG Gaga Stan said:

the newer, elitist anti-pop fans that truly think Gaga can do no wrong always rush to defend her, make fun of anyone who has a problem with the way she's chosen to abandon everything that made us love her in the beginning, and pretend that this is a sign of growth, somehow, that she's actually "matured" by embracing a watered-down version of who she told us she really was for years and ejecting all of her ambition in the process, embracing this Adult-contemporary top 40 sound with this maudlin approach to everything. The idea that "Lady Gaga" wasn't a reflection of who she really is and that it was all an act is a betrayal, full-stop, and it means that she lied to us for years to sell records. I'm still here because I don't believe her. 

The point is: This is clearly a marketing tactic to appeal to Oscar voters and the general public. I get it. I get that she has to play the game, to a certain extent. That doesn't mean we have to like it, especially when it's obvious that she's being inauthentic.

Well, you put it very candidly (very nice choice of words, you have a gift for biting yet intellectually stimulating posts lol, love it) but I completely agree :queenga::applause:

It's led me to believe that many fans just didn't really understand what was special about her in the first place. When I see some people here referring to her 2008-2009 period as "just pop" or "empty" I'm absolutely baffled. Did they not see the hundred and one cultural references in her visual output? Did they not understand how her chosen sound was challenging and original in so many ways?

Apparently some fans just appreciate the more mainstream, less forward-thinking, more conventional, easy-on-the-ear and eyes version of Gaga, while still enjoying the idea that they're supposedly stanning for someone who is an avant-garde genius anyway who shits on other pop stars for that reason, despite not doing anything remarkable in comparison. That sounds like something a lot of people would fall for :koons:

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River

I woke up late to a jokes worthy thread :neyde:

I'm not serious 99% of the times ;)

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OG Gaga Stan
1 minute ago, giskardsb said:

I think many fans just don't like that they don't "own" her anymore.  She is loved by more than her initial pop fan base, on her way to becoming an icon loved for both her music and acting talent, and NOT just because she wears a shitload of clothes and is a weird girl.  

 

11 minutes ago, Ronlop said:

I can understand that for many of you Gaga changed your life in some way or another or gave you strength and a feeling of empowerment. But you can not expect a woman to enslave herself to you always and serve the powerful avant-garde fashionista relevant pop artist character forever. And no one even said she won't give you that in the future in some way.

This sentiment really, really bothers me, and I keep seeing it being repeated over and over again on here in a way that I find really irritating. The idea that original fans at one point did and are currently attempting to own her or control her is disgusting. We did not ever own her, nor did we think we did. We admired her for her own art, her own perspective, and we think she's deliberately sanded off her rough edges to appeal to a broader audience in a way that we find inauthentic. It's not that we don't want her to "grow" (god, I'd love some genuine, intellectual growth and ambition out of the next Gaga album); it's that we don't buy this development as "growth." It feels like she's sliding into conformity, becoming like every other rich white celebrity that palls around with other millionaires at cocktail parties that she  mocked and rebelled against in her early work. I don't find that to be "growth" or an indication of newfound "maturity."

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Didymus
4 minutes ago, giskardsb said:

I'm a different kind of fan  I guess, probably because I'm a rock and jazz guy and generally think pop has way too much poor musicianship and superficial junk.  So that is my background to take into account.

I despise most pop music. Doesn't make me love The Fame any less. That was Gaga at her most creative, postmodern and culturally challenging. That even her fans don't understand that makes me really sad.

5 minutes ago, giskardsb said:

Why would anyone expect her to be the same.

Because she claimed to be in control, to know what she was doing, to portray an act in public, to be a "con artist of fame". I'm not expecting her to not be affected by her emotional troubles. I just didn't expect she assumed we cared. I'm just here for the art. Her feelings she should keep for her shrink. Sorry if that sounds mean, but that's the way it is for me.

All this babbling about what she's going through is an excuse to not create anything artistically. Stone me, but, yeah, that's what I believe. She's either lazy artistically or she's so far up her own ass that she actually thinks her descriptions about life in a Malibu mansion are somehow relevant for her fans and, even worse, the wider public. Or both.

She used to be all about the work and not at all about her personal life. That's something to applaud in this industry. I'm not going to applaud her for turning her back on that philosophy now. I don't know why anyone else does, it's weak and superficial. So she's a human being, so what? We all are. That is not some huge revelation to me. Literally every pop star nowadays brags about their mental problems. I think that's vain, insulting and very unhealthy for the fans.

9 minutes ago, giskardsb said:

the way she has gone about it providing a clean break that says "this is about vocals, not performance art" helped the public get past their preconceptions.

But who cares about public perception? I thought she was different. I thought she wanted to bring the avant-garde into the mainstream, actually make a difference. Are we supposed to cheer her on while she is teaching her fans to appeal to the status quo, to get people's attention and approval simply because.. well, you can?

No. She looked us dead in the eye in early 2014 after she went viral with a performance in which a girl vomited on her, something she bravely called "art", and told us she would rather go back to singing in an irrelevant bar than to let the pressure of the industry to get to her. To not criticize her for betraying that laudable philosophy would be to have no spine and to make excuses for what's essentially a rich woman living in an overpriced home, expecting us to contribute to her wealth without delivering the goods. Sorry.

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OG Gaga Stan
7 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Well, you put it very candidly (very nice choice of words, you have a gift for biting yet intellectually stimulating posts lol, love it) but I completely agree :queenga::applause:

It's led me to believe that many fans just didn't really understand what was special about her in the first place. When I see some people here referring to her 2008-2009 period as "just pop" or "empty" I'm absolutely baffled. Did they not see the hundred and one cultural references in her visual output? Did they not understand how her chosen sound was challenging and original in so many ways?

Apparently some fans just appreciate the more mainstream, less forward-thinking, more conventional, easy-on-the-ear and eyes version of Gaga, while still enjoying the idea that they're supposedly stanning for someone who is an avant-garde genius anyway who shits on other pop stars for that reason, despite not doing anything remarkable in comparison. That sounds like something a lot of people would fall for :koons:

Thank you! Ugh. Someone else that gets it. 

I'll keep waiting for her ambition to come back. Hopefully she finds it again. 

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Bambino

This woman is complicating things about her identity once again upon the release of every project she does. Stefani or Gaga or whatever she sees herself as, she was much more interesting back in the day, artistically, musically and culturally.

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Ronlop
24 minutes ago, OG Gaga Stan said:

 

This sentiment really, really bothers me, and I keep seeing it being repeated over and over again on here in a way that I find really irritating. The idea that original fans at one point did and are currently attempting to own her or control her is disgusting. We did not ever own her, nor did we think we did. We admired her for her own art, her own perspective, and we think she's deliberately sanded off her rough edges to appeal to a broader audience in a way that we find inauthentic. It's not that we don't want her to "grow" (god, I'd love some genuine, intellectual growth and ambition out of the next Gaga album); it's that we don't buy this development as "growth." It feels like she's sliding into conformity, becoming like every other rich white celebrity that palls around with other millionaires at cocktail parties that she  mocked and rebelled against in her early work. I don't find that to be "growth" or an indication of newfound "maturity."

But we are. Look at some of the comments. Alot of fans really expect Gaga to be the crazy pop star with the strange outfits and the huge dance records because that's what she was in the past and why they became fans in the first place. So essentially, what dictated this fanbase's image of Gaga are few or maybe several good memories from 2008-2013.

And she had to keep that image up until 2014 when she first broke it by doing a jazz record with Tony Bennet, later on releasing a folk-americana album in 2016 which is very off-brand if you ask me. It's a risk and she created new career routes for herself and did exactly what was her own perspective. No one wanted that from Lady Gaga but she did it anyways.

If you doubt the final result of these career choices, that's a different story and I can't argue with you on that because that's up to your taste. But you can tell they came from a genuine place and was her way to rebel against what she is expected to do by her critics, media and the fans.

Sliding into conformity could be seen as growth. Her going to rich people cocktail parties and living her life in her $24m mansion in Malibu could be where she feels more comfortable now. She can't live a more artsy, rebellious lifestyle in New York like she used to because she is famous and her Malibu residency allows her to live peacefully which is what everyone wants at the end of the day. You are not in a room to judge her for that especially when you didn't go through what she went through but you can be disappointed because you expect something different from her. But again, that's you putting her in a box.

She's still very much passionate in the work she does. She gives her own say into everything and she even still gives you throwbacks to her old-self at times. But she tries to live a normal life when she's not on stage unlike in the past. Is she interesting now? Not really. Could she be interesting again? Definitely and that's why I'm still here. 

 

 

 

Edited by Ronlop
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gumzy3000

I do remember her saying to people years ago to not call her Stefani and to call her only Gaga or Lady Gaga. When I think about it from her shoes, it is clear she was extremely ambitious and hardworking. During this time (2008 to 2015ish), she was in her twenties with all the energy and rage that comes with it. She was building her CAREER and she wasn't going to let her past come in the way. She was creating a character and an iteam to sell with hypercommercialism. Yes, she did become extremely successful and iconic but I am sure it took a massive toll on her. She broke her hip, had depression, loneliness, anxiety, breakups, probably lost family and friends, was even perhaps pressured to things she didn't want to do by her record label and she even had a drug period where she was smoking pot a lot (2012ish). Not to mention the media was borderline abusive to her during 2013-2014.

What I am trying to say is that she went through a lot to create "Lady Gaga" and when she says she found Stefani, she is talking about going back to her roots and rebuilding the relationships she had with her friends and family. Also, I think this also means she is putting herself first for once and she is doing what is best for her mental and physical state.  

A messy blend of logic and sass
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Ronlop
32 minutes ago, Didymus said:

 

She used to be all about the work and not at all about her personal life. That's something to applaud in this industry. I'm not going to applaud her for turning her back on that philosophy now. I don't know why anyone else does, it's weak and superficial. So she's a human being, so what? We all are. That is not some huge revelation to me. Literally every pop star nowadays brags about their mental problems. I think that's vain, insulting and very unhealthy for the fans.

.

At the end of the day, Gaga was given a big platform and she's using it for a good purpose- to help others with their own struggles.

It's not a huge relevation to have mental health issues but so what? She wants to bring something good to this world so even that is met with criticsm?

When she's into a project, she's all about the work. She's super proffesional in that case and always focuses on the work itself. What do you know about her fiance or her mansion in Malibu? What do you know about what she does on the daily basis outside of her work? 

 

 

Edited by Ronlop
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OG Gaga Stan
12 minutes ago, Ronlop said:

You are not in a room to judge her for that especially when you didn't go through what she went through but you can be disappointed because you expect something different from her. But again, that's you putting her in a box.

I'm judging the quality of her output. I'm judging her for her lack of ambition musically, her lack of intellectualism, her embracing what she used to mock. I'm a part of the public and she's trying to sell me something. We all have the right to judge her work. I'm not "putting her in a box" when I say that I want something ambitious or intelligent from her. I'm saying that she should work to improve. I'm asking for growth rather than imposing a limitation. The fact that I don't expect work at that level is exactly the problem. :saladga:

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gumzy3000
32 minutes ago, OG Gaga Stan said:

 

This sentiment really, really bothers me, and I keep seeing it being repeated over and over again on here in a way that I find really irritating. The idea that original fans at one point did and are currently attempting to own her or control her is disgusting. We did not ever own her, nor did we think we did. We admired her for her own art, her own perspective, and we think she's deliberately sanded off her rough edges to appeal to a broader audience in a way that we find inauthentic. It's not that we don't want her to "grow" (god, I'd love some genuine, intellectual growth and ambition out of the next Gaga album); it's that we don't buy this development as "growth." It feels like she's sliding into conformity, becoming like every other rich white celebrity that palls around with other millionaires at cocktail parties that she  mocked and rebelled against in her early work. I don't find that to be "growth" or an indication of newfound "maturity."

But everyone changes as they grow older and they are put into new situations that will be necessary to get ahead. I know Gaga rebelled a lot against the entertainment industry and against conformity but she is at a point in her life right now where she probably wants to conform, stabilize and relax... not everything she does has to be groundbreaking and challenging societal norms. There is NOTHING wrong about her doing what she does now. I always took Gaga as someone who is strong and intelligent and independent. I believe that she does what she really wants to do in terms of her music and acting career choices. Like COME ON-Joanne was definitely her idea and not Interscopes. They could have turned her into a Katy Perry pop star but they didn't and I am sure Gaga would not like that either. She has agency and she can decide for herself whats best. This is definitely maturity and growth on her part and she is still, in my opinion, rebelling and doing what SHE WANTS TO DO! A Star is Born is definitely something she is passionate about and Joanne meant a lot to her. If she is happy doing what she wants, this is not bad... she is growing up and changing - like all of us too!

A messy blend of logic and sass
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LaLa
40 minutes ago, Didymus said:

 

Because she claimed to be in control, to know what she was doing, to portray an act in public, to be a "con artist of fame". I'm not expecting her to not be affected by her emotional troubles. I just didn't expect she assumed we cared. I'm just here for the art. Her feelings she should keep for her shrink. Sorry if that sounds mean, but that's the way it is for me.

 

 
2

I think this sentiment is the heart of why no conclusion can ever be reached in these types of threads.

You are just here for the art, and that is valid. Lots of people would argue that that is the only valid way to view art. That we should be able to look at a painting or read a book or hear a song, and know nothing about the artist, and view it completely through our own personal lens. Which is true!

But for some people the artist herself, and her inner life, are just as important as the art. For myself, I'd even go so far to say that the Gaga as a person is more important to me than anything she could produce. 

I care if she is happy and healthy, and if that means riding her horse to Starbucks or whatever then so be it.

I don't think either 'type' of fan is more or less valid, but I don't think we're ever going to be in agreement, and I think we should stop trying to be.

 

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Didymus
7 minutes ago, Ronlop said:

At the end of the day, Gaga was given a big platform and she's using it for a good purpose- to help others with their own struggles. 

Oh, really? :poot:

Is this "celebrities actually care" myth still alive? Come on. She didn't quit music to study psychotherapy. She makes a song about let's all hold hands, we can make it together. I'll leave that to other pop stars. What set her apart in the past was her perspective. I don't get how suddenly we should stop appreciating that and simply cheer her on for giving an interview about mental illness once in a while, with no expertise on the subject at all, like whut... I thought we were stanning for an artist.

9 minutes ago, Ronlop said:

It's not a huge relevation to have mental health issues but so what? She wants to bring something good to this world so even that is met with criticsm?

I don't criticize it, it's just boring and dull compared to what she was doing, which is providing artworks that were already discussing mental health issues, but in a creative and therapeutic way rather than just a speech at some rich people event.

11 minutes ago, Ronlop said:

When she's into a project, she's all about the work. She's super proffesional in that case and always focuses on the work itself. What do you know about her fiance or her mansion in Malibu? What do you know about what she does on the daily basis outside of her work?

I don't know anything. Nor do you. So I don't get how that's relevant for the conversation.

Point is: she's free to do whatever she wants. I'm just upset with the fans who don't understand that many of us are having trouble accepting all of the massive changes. Like, sorry we're not buying the whole personality cult thing, sorry we're just interested in art, sorry we'd just like to discuss her work instead of applauding her and idolizing her for saying something about real people troubles. Sorry we understand that Selena ****ing Gomez is doing the exact same thing...

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