wahkeenasitka 1,980 Posted October 8, 2018 Author Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Satans Ex Wife said: Me too, perhaps after a few years have passed and I am more separated from that relationship, I will feel more like you do. I don't think Jackson was a narcissist though. Dependent, and letting his addiction consume his life and overtake his personality? Definitely. And addictions and dependencies (and their resulting insecurity, fear of abandonment, and the holes they put in logical thinking) nearly always result in emotional manipulation, whether or not they are intentional. I would say that all drug addiction and alcoholism is, by definition, a form of narcissism. and/or a way to blanket over / mask / hide / not deal with their narcissism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katie14 4,828 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, wahkeenasitka said: I would say that all drug addiction and alcoholism is, by definition, a form of narcissism. and/or a way to blanket over / mask / hide / not deal with their narcissism. Why do you think that? Im curious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JazzGa 14,409 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, wahkeenasitka said: I would say that all drug addiction and alcoholism is, by definition, a form of narcissism. and/or a way to blanket over / mask / hide / not deal with their narcissism. I definitely disagree with that. The narcissists I know are quite often relatively sober. Their problems and thought processes are so different than any other individual. Many psychologists refuse to treat narcissists and other cluster-B personality disorders because they are so difficult to make progress on. The "reform/successful treatment" rate for narcissists is near zero. Contrast with addiction, which many people recover from and move on with their lives. So the two can go hand in hand, but not always. I've taken a few dips in the lady pond Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulchieffo 1,007 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Here's something I considered that I know a lot of people wont agree with. I think a big part of their relationship is what Ally got from Jackson. He made her a star and that gift to her made her see him in a bigger than life kind of way. He did what she had been trying to do for years in a couple of days. A lot of Ally's love for Jackson is stemming from gratefulness for what he had done for her. One could say it was "mistaken for love". I think towards the end Ally really does fully and thoroughly love Jackson whereas I think Jackson always loved Ally from the night he heard her sing. I think Ally was so tired of things being slow that she was more than ready to rush into everything and anything which is why the movie picks up so quickly. I don't want to say Ally was using Jackson at first but the fact that she displayed her songwriting abilities on the first night they met could have been in hope he would make her a star. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JazzGa 14,409 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Hey OP, even though I don't agree with everything in your post, I am still really glad you made this. I think we are having great conversations in this thread. I find everyone's opinions very thoughtful and interesting. I've taken a few dips in the lady pond Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyVersace 8,754 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 16 minutes ago, wahkeenasitka said: I think I'm jaded, because I've actually been in an abusive relationship with a psychologically manipulative alcoholic who was also a drug addict (meth) during my 20s. I'm 39 now, and I would *NEVER* be in a relationship like what they portrayed on screen. Nor would I ever romanticize this kind of portrayal of love. But it's not really romanticized....he ends up committing suicide and never overcomes his addiction lol. And at the end, she's completely broken and alone. Yeah, it's sweet in the beginning and aspirational with the music and all, but at the end of the film, I don't think anyone is really walking away envious of that relationship. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwerk 6,952 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 There were only a view moments during the first time I saw the film when I truly seperated Gaga from the character. - When she sang La Vie en Rose since she sang it differently and moved a little awkwardly sexy and less determined than Gaga herself would. - When Sarah, Frederic and Natali and Richy were on screen. - When she talked to her dad about him carrying her piano everywhere and sitting with her while she wrote music, because it's very simular to her own life. To me Gaga is way more in control and bosslady like than Ally in this film. Some things seemed rushed. I think her first performance with him and him arranging that song with his band is believable up untill they both started singing the shalla-shallalowing part together at the same time. Would've made more sense if he had started that part and she joined in. But to be fair, when they were in the parking lot it was still dark and when he dropped her off at home it was daylight, so they might have hung out on that parking lot for a few more hours talking and singing. The wedding didnt feel rushed to me because they never really made clear how much time had passed. We saw that she went on tour with him, which could've lasted for half a year for example. I do wish that 'tour montage' was a little bit longer and diverse to show how long they were performing together. Same goed for the period of time when Ally was going for a pop carreer. People in my theatre reacted in dissbelief or chuckled when she heard she was nominated for 3 Grammy's already. As tacky as it is, a little montage of her road to the top wouldve helped I guess. I don't think this relationship is being sold to the media as love. Ally and Jackson were in love but often love is not perfect and I think this movie shows why very well. According to Gaga I'm a ****ing rad bitch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus 34,267 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, wahkeenasitka said: I think you made some really great points. Thank you! You as well I really like your analysis. 1 minute ago, wahkeenasitka said: BUT... I think that ultimately, the film is a meditation on / representation of narcissistic relationships, in which the power dynamics are so clearly out of balance that the relationship is based on illusion and codependency, such that the potential of actual love is never able to be realized. I don't really see the power dynamics being so grim. Like, what scenes do you think show those off? I saw Ally making her own decisions throughout and never really being influenced by Jack to a problematic degree. Even her manager is clearly annoyed by how she makes her own choices, from beginning to end. That's actually what I liked about the film. She was a bold ass chick to me who didn't compromise unless she wanted to. 4 minutes ago, wahkeenasitka said: The fact that Jack killed himself at the end of the movie says everything to me Well, why? Jack felt like he was holding her back, and wanted to set her free. He had nothing left to live for but her. Yes, that's dramatic and unhealthy but everything he worked for was going down the drain, even his hearing. Making sure Ally found her voice and prospered from it was all he cared about, passing on the music if you will. Ally knew that at the end and felt grateful, and doesn't have anything to blame herself for. As the movie stresses: it was Jack's own "fault" that he killed himself, just like Ally told her dad it wasn't his fault that she went through what she went through. Personal responsibility is a big thing in this movie, for the good and the bad. I really liked that and felt like that kept the movie away from sentimentalism and spectacular drama. 11 minutes ago, wahkeenasitka said: we as the audience should view this story as a cautionary tale about how we create so much illusion & fantasy about what love is, and create these sappy / codependency relationships that are actually all about sucking the life force out of us rather than *ACTUALLY* being fundamentally generous towards each other. I can understand that, but I feel like then you'd have to criticize like every musical and romantic comedy ever Which is possible, of course. I see cinema more as a gathering place for people to dream about love, and to find out what exactly that is. I don't think this film was nearly as destructive or irresponsible as any Disney film I've seen, so I just think you're overreacting a little bit. Gaga has never in her life promoted healthy love relationships in her career. ASIB is the best she's done so far imo lol. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerfectGUY 7,822 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 I agree with you on a philosophical level For me, what was depicted was love as it actually is in our society But you're right in some way. In philosophy, people distinguish 2 forms of love : a false one (éros) in which both parts try to appropriate/own each other, and a true one (agape) in which both part protects and respects the other Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Featured Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.