Beyonce and Jay Z/cultural appropriation

[androiduser 7,116]

by definition, "cultural appropriation is a concept dealing with the adoption of the elements of a minority culture by members of the dominant culture.Particularly in the 21st century, cultural appropriation is often portrayed as harmful in contemporary cultures, and is claimed to be a violation of the collective intellectual property rights of the originating, minority cultures, notably indigenous cultures and those living under colonial rule."

So, no, this is not cultural appropriation, because it's not a case of a member of a dominant culture exploiting a minority.

[brucee 1,690]

On 6/17/2018 at 2:50 PM, Blond said:

@ryanripley

Thanks for healthy discussion tho and not just instantly hating on me 

It's an important discussion we have to have. There is no offence in challenging your opinions, learning and asking questions.

So this is definitely not cultural appropriation here.

 

 

 

[brucee 1,690]

5 hours ago, Dayum said:

Can you explain the bolded part?

White people argued about the fact that native american had a soul, they decided that they had one...  But (bitches) they still needed slaves so they said : the niggas don't have one, thus became slavery, thus became this ****ing system were black people are considered inferior and this **** ****ing sticks in our society today, in the head of some people and it's almost everywhere still and we have to make that end. It's not over, not completely.

It's subconscious and infectious. You are privileged if you are white in this world, like I believe it still exists. I am white so yeah I don't live in this situation, we can't understand but all this ****ing mess is a very complex problem.

We all forgot that Africa is a whole continent with it's own culture, and history before the white domination made it third world area. 

[Ziggy 10,363]

On 6/17/2018 at 9:21 AM, Eddie said:

That moment when you say F**k SJW but then you become one because you want attention 

Btw cultural approwjzbiwjfnon is something white americans invented. I don't see japaneses, mexicans or italians complaining about this 

...because they aren’t nations built on the blending of various cultures in such an oblique fashion as the US is. We have to reconcile literally every cultural background with another in the US, that is going to cause very unique sociocultural friction that other countries wouldnt experience. An issue like appropriation is uniquely American. And it was black Americans that first made points about it, just some white people realized it’s not that hard to listen to someone else’s concerns and apply a little critical thought to their actions.

[Ziggy 10,363]

On 6/18/2018 at 4:36 AM, hankhatesyouall said:

The hypocrisy of social justice warriors has just reached the level of absolute insanity. There is always a knee jerk reaction from progressives when a certain white rappers tries to use elements of hip-hop culture or, God forbids, a white woman shoots a video in Africa without black people on the cast. At the same time it's completely OK for the Carters to film their "dancing" in a French Museum and show the greatest European paintings without featuring a single white person in their video. It seems like it doesn't work both ways. 

I do not want to buy this "oppressed" bullshit. How are the Carters oppressed? Jay is a drug dealer and Beyonce is a filthy rich pop singer who suddenly became woke. They should have filmed this in Houston or Africa, stay away from the European heritage. The same people who adore their new video say that white people have no culture.


      

 

  

I don’t think white people have no culture and nor do beyonce and Jay-z. (For the record, he’s a billionaire mogul in his own right and not just “a drug dealer”).

 

the reason this isn’t appropriative is because it is not a dominant culture cosmetically adopting elements of a minority one (ala Miley Cyrus’ Bangerz era). This is the exact opposite, so you’re right, it doesn’t go both ways because it can’t. It’s about power. And you’re right again, they are rich as all Christ. That’s the point. They are, as two black Americans who had to work to get to where they are, putting their accomplishments as black individuals amidst the highest echelons of white European culture. They are saying, essentially, that black art is also fine and high art. And it is their unique success story that places them there. They aren’t putting down white euro culture, they’re equating its value to that of black culture as well. They are saying that there’s no difference, no hierarchy. Black art can also be in the Louvre. Black art is also deserving of being in the highest domains of cultural appreciation. That’s why it isn’t appropriation; their intent behind it has nothing to do with adopting elements, but with comparing their value culturally. They’re saying their art, black art, is not just some low brow ghetto act, but just as worthy as any white art (which I think we can agree has typically been held in higher regard, historically).

[MonsterOfSpain 8,275]

4 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

I don’t think white people have no culture and nor do beyonce and Jay-z. (For the record, he’s a billionaire mogul in his own right and not just “a drug dealer”).

 

the reason this isn’t appropriative is because it is not a dominant culture cosmetically adopting elements of a minority one (ala Miley Cyrus’ Bangerz era). This is the exact opposite, so you’re right, it doesn’t go both ways because it can’t. It’s about power. And you’re right again, they are rich as all Christ. That’s the point. They are, as two black Americans who had to work to get to where they are, putting their accomplishments as black individuals amidst the highest echelons of white European culture. They are saying, essentially, that black art is also fine and high art. And it is their unique success story that places them there. They aren’t putting down white euro culture, they’re equating its value to that of black culture as well. They are saying that there’s no difference, no hierarchy. Black art can also be in the Louvre. Black art is also deserving of being in the highest domains of cultural appreciation. That’s why it isn’t appropriation; their intent behind it has nothing to do with adopting elements, but with comparing their value culturally. They’re saying their art, black art, is not just some low brow ghetto act, but just as worthy as any white art (which I think we can agree has typically been held in higher regard, historically).

The reach omg  Imagine if Gaga or Katy filmed a video in the Louvre saying their art is as good as the paintings in the museum. I can already picture the essays and drags against them. Funny when there's always an excuse or an explanation when it comes to Beyoncé's pretentious "art".

[Ziggy 10,363]

4 hours ago, MonsterOfSpain said:

The reach omg  Imagine if Gaga or Katy filmed a video in the Louvre saying their art is as good as the paintings in the museum. I can already picture the essays and drags against them. Funny when there's always an excuse or an explanation when it comes to Beyoncé's pretentious "art".

I didn’t say it wasn’t pretentious haha just that that was their aim. It’s very pretentious, though, holds an extra layer of meaning because, again, they are black artists rather than the two white ones you named. It is pretentious, for sure, and no, not a reach. Most other critics have pointed this analysis out as well because it’s an incredibly obvious one given the imagery and the artists we’re talking about and the album it’s on. Is it pretentious? Oh of course. Is it a reach? No because that’s literally the point of the video (which jay-z even says in lyrics later on on the album). I’m not necessarily praising it, I’m just pointing out what its intent is and trying to explain how it has absolutely nothing to do with “appropriation” because of that. If you really truly think that black artists being in a white space is appropriative then there’s not much of a discussion worth having because you’re not getting how cultural appropriation and racial power dynamics work even in a theoretical sense.

The point is that their being black is inherent to the meaning that they’re trying to get across. So you can’t compare Gaga or Katy Perry because neither are black. It’s not just Bey and Jay’s art being in the Louvre, it is *black art* being in a space of traditionally white dominion (fine art). So they are saying their success is the success of black artists not solely themselves. Whether you think the video conveyed this effectively or not is a different argument, but that’s their argument and the point that they’re trying to make.

[Borislshere 52,615]

5 hours ago, MonsterOfSpain said:

The reach omg  Imagine if Gaga or Katy filmed a video in the Louvre saying their art is as good as the paintings in the museum. I can already picture the essays and drags against them. Funny when there's always an excuse or an explanation when it comes to Beyoncé's pretentious "art".

But Gaga essentially did the same thing with art. All of the ARTPOP era was her mashing classic works of art with her own artistry. Just like people are defending Beyoncé for doing, they defended Gaga. 

[Ariana Grindr 3,173]

Are you Caucasian ?

[beaublue 3,869]

Cultural elements which may have deep meaning to the original culture may be reduced to "exotic" fashion or toys by those from the dominant culture. Beyonce & Jay Z didn’t show respect for the art they were appropriating. They reduced the art by equating their music to it so yes I’d say it’s cultural appropriation.

[HairBow 531]

Cultural Appropriation isn't real. Not if we all want multiculturalism, that is.

/sorrynotsorry

[Miel 15,009]

16 hours ago, Dayum said:

Can you explain the bolded part?

A lot of racialized issues today, although not all, stem from hundreds of years of European/Western-centric imperialism and colonialism. Although not incredibly similar, there are a lot of connections and similar factors that created racialized power systems and discrimination in many different regions, and how people of specific backgrounds interact with people of other backgrounds (for example, anti-Blackness in Asian communities, or anti-Asian rhetoric in Latinx communities, and so on).

 

 

[Ziggy 10,363]

4 hours ago, lovedillon said:

Cultural elements which may have deep meaning to the original culture may be reduced to "exotic" fashion or toys by those from the dominant culture. Beyonce & Jay Z didn’t show respect for the art they were appropriating. They reduced the art by equating their music to it so yes I’d say it’s cultural appropriation.

They did respect it...so much so that they’re saying black art has every right to coexist with white European “fine art”. That’s the point. As I responded to someone else, whether or not you think they effectively conveyed this is another point but that was their point. The statement they’re trying to make is broader than just their art individually.

Though to your definition of appropriation, I agree with it but not with your conclusion. In what time has black art ever been dominant over the fine, classic art of Europe? When in the last several hundred years has that ever been the case? Your comment even says as much; you hold those works in an ivory tower. They are the pinnacle of artistic achievement and, again this is their message not my opinion, with their message being that black art is just as worthy of being held in as high esteem, you defend my reservations. With all of this in mind, this could not have been a case cultural appropriation. Now, beyonce adopting African and Egyptian aesthetics? That’s a different question because then you have to unpack whether or not black Americans are held a level above black Africans and also how the lightness of her complexion plays a role in all of this, but in this specific case, I don’t see an argument for appropriation.

[MonsterOfSpain 8,275]

17 hours ago, Borislshere said:

But Gaga essentially did the same thing with art. All of the ARTPOP era was her mashing classic works of art with her own artistry. Just like people are defending Beyoncé for doing, they defended Gaga. 

But she got dragged to death during that era, that's my whole point lmao. Meanwhile Beyoncé is always praised for whatever she does.

[MonsterOfSpain 8,275]

17 hours ago, Ziggy said:

I didn’t say it wasn’t pretentious haha just that that was their aim. It’s very pretentious, though, holds an extra layer of meaning because, again, they are black artists rather than the two white ones you named. It is pretentious, for sure, and no, not a reach. Most other critics have pointed this analysis out as well because it’s an incredibly obvious one given the imagery and the artists we’re talking about and the album it’s on. Is it pretentious? Oh of course. Is it a reach? No because that’s literally the point of the video (which jay-z even says in lyrics later on on the album). I’m not necessarily praising it, I’m just pointing out what its intent is and trying to explain how it has absolutely nothing to do with “appropriation” because of that. If you really truly think that black artists being in a white space is appropriative then there’s not much of a discussion worth having because you’re not getting how cultural appropriation and racial power dynamics work even in a theoretical sense.

The point is that their being black is inherent to the meaning that they’re trying to get across. So you can’t compare Gaga or Katy Perry because neither are black. It’s not just Bey and Jay’s art being in the Louvre, it is *black art* being in a space of traditionally white dominion (fine art). So they are saying their success is the success of black artists not solely themselves. Whether you think the video conveyed this effectively or not is a different argument, but that’s their argument and the point that they’re trying to make.

The point is I don't even agree with the idea of "cultural appropiation". Of course I'm not accusing Beyon-Z of it, but my point was that while white artists get accused of appropiating other cultures for every performance or video they do, it seems that because they're black they can't "appropriate" other cultures. 

I think the whole idea of thinking an artist paying homage or referencing elements from a different culture in their art is wrong or "appropriative" to be effing stupid. All cultures are supposed to mix, respect and reference each other, that has always been the base of humanity, multiculturality and interchange of ideas and experiences. Saying that wearing dreadlocks or kimonos has to be exclusive to a certain race or ethnic group is xenophobic and idiotic in my opinion. There are many more issues to voice in this world that saying somebody is racist for taking elements from another culture lmao.