Gay men hate femme gay men

[What About Us 1,499]

To be honest, I'm a masc guy myself, but I don't give a damn what kind of guy I date. I mean I do have certain preferences, but I don't mind whether I date a fem guy or a masc guy or someone who fluctuates in between. However, the fact that some people on here want to discriminate against feminine guys is repulsive. It's alright to have your preference, but it's not okay to say that fem guys give a bad rep to the LGBT+ community.

[Sepsami 20,953]

I mean me personally, I'm not really attracted to fem but I don't think they (we ) give a bad reputation wtf  

[Sepsami 20,953]

On 10-11-2017 at 5:22 AM, OracleMonster said:

Y’all need to stop paying attention to this and just be who you are. Whenever we acknowlege these type of articles we give them power. By power I️ mean what society wants us to be like. Be femme - be masculine who cares. Ultimately not everyone is going to be your cup of tea and neither will you be theres. 

T!

Not only this but seeing these kinds of articles makes me lose faith in the gay (male) community, we're supposed to be the pinnacle of acceptance  

[What About Us 1,499]

Just now, Sepsami said:

T!

Not only this but seeing these kinds of articles makes me lose faith in the gay (male) community, we're supposed to be the pinnacle of acceptance  

Agreed! We need to learn how to be more accepting of others.

[ZephyrInTheSky 1,235]

What a mess, i personally dont care about how femme or masc someone is, if i'm not attracted to you, we wont work. So ill take a sexy femme guy over a sloppy masc guy anyday. They tend to take better care of themselves anyway. 

[derpmonster 22,412]

Most such preferences do come from social conditioning. We are grown up thinking extreme masculinity (the fragile absolute kind) is desirable and we see that everywhere around us in pop culture, TV, movies. That is what makes us value one over the other. It is fine to have preferences as long as you don't completely write off a whole segment of people. No, there is NO such thing as being mascsexual. You may be attracted to masculine men more, fine. But you should be open to all kinds.

That being said, yes, it's disgusting so many people think femme gays bring shame to the community. You know, the community isn't about pleasing straight people. It isn't about fitting into the norms of the straight world. If you really want that, sorry, that's not gonna work. We are individual and we value our uniqueness. I'm not going to change myself just to look more palatable to cishet people.

And I say this as a person who is mostly masc and bisexual. My boyfriend didn't know I was gay until I told him before we started dating. But I am kind of genderfluid, so I sometimes dress in a traditionally feminine way. Depends on my mood that too -- it's usually in either extreme. I feel it too, don't get me wrong. I feel the pressure to conform to masculine standards of society. But it's important we don't internalize the homophobia and cave into it.

[Guest]

Here we go again with this topic 

I don't understand why masc gays are always putting down fem gays every chance they get. I also have a hard time believing that this site is all filled with a bunch of masc gays when every other thread is "is so and so a hunty", posts with yaaasss queen, talking about bussies, and wigs flying, and every other person's profile pic is of a pop star. 

There is so much hate within our own community and things like this make me glad I don't associate myself with a lot of it. Like what you like, but I don't get putting others down and announcing every chance you get that you're into manly men. It's so tiring. 

[LePetitGAGABLover 21,234]

I dont see the problem with this?

Some people's responses in this thread though 

edit: Wait. Hate? I take it back. 

[Bebe 17,289]

21 hours ago, Givenchy said:

I'm not taking it personally, and nowhere did I suggest that femme gays are repulsive. They're just not my type, and I don't find myself and them sexually compatible, and it has nothing to do with how nice they are. I know a hell lot of nice women, women I treasure, but there's no way anything sexual or emotional can happen between me and them. 

I'm simply against the idea that a person's interest in another person is a societal influence. I live in the middle east and a lot of these manly men you mention are either into women or femme gays. I can understand that, to them the "femme" features are a turn on and these men identify as top. So it feels like a compatibility thing more than anything. I'm not sure about the west, but a lot of people claim that "99% of gays are versatile" and I don't know where they even got that percentage from, but if everyone wants to be both top and bottom, it makes sense that they might look down on something that may likely only want to be bottom. Even though I'm not suggesting that every bottom is femme nor that every top has to be Schwarzneggar LOL.

Here's the thing, and let's put it bluntly like this. Someone likes to get ****ed hard, what can a femme guy who also likes to get ****ed do about it? Let's be logical here. I'm not saying femme guys cannot **** someone but they're most likely into the other sexual role. And biologically speaking, isn't sex more pleasurable when you're for example a bottom gay having sex with someone who's strong enough to contain you. If this is your desire, then you're definitely gonna need somebody who's best for that preference and that of course changes from one person to another, but I guess it has much deeper roots in sexual roles, in desires and overall preference. Not simply nor purely societal problem. I didn't choose my partner based on a societal norm, I chose him because he cares about me and turns me on.

This whole notion where some people claim that it's entirely something taught to us is nonsense. There's definitely a social influence, but ultimately the way our body reacts, the way our deep instincts function, it's who we are rather than what we're taught and a lot of people (not saying it's necessarily you) imply that you somehow owe the less desired people something or when some feminists complain that men are into big boobs and specific beauty standards and often claim that all that is because of the "evil fashion magazine beauty standards". I personally believe that these standards didn't just condition people, they were put in order to present the unachievable, to amplify what men desire in a woman or what people generally desire in one another and amplify that to become something magical rather than realistic, but it's still created based on what we desire, what we're wired to like.

Well, you seem to be taking it personally when you're accusing me of bullying you for pointing out a culture that works to uphold particular, harmful gender norms by shaming and ostracizing those who do not, or cannot, conform. There is a total difference between your sexuality and sexual preference - so that's just a false equivalency.

"I'm simply against the idea that a person's interest in another person is a societal influence"

And I think that's pretty naive. We see how people fetishise race and gender in countless studies and statistics. We see it with racial 'preferences'

and in studies like the one we are discussing we see it in gender performance.

"There's definitely a social influence, but ultimately the way our body reacts, the way our deep instincts function, it's who we are rather than what we're taught"

But we are what we are taught, we aren't born with inherent sexual preferences, these preferences don't develop within a bubble separate from our social conditioning in a culture that has complex relationships with race and gender roles. It's hard to overstate the significance that the culture we were born into has on our attitudes, our beliefs, our prejudices and our 'preferences'. 

The tops/bottoms conversation is, in my mind, pretty irrelevant. I don't think you become attracted to a person only when you find out whether they top/bottom, I think gay sexuality is more complex than a simple top/bottom binary and I don't think somebody's masculinity or femininity is always a great indicator of sexual preference. I also think the problem is far deeper though.

The idea that masculine people should be attracted to feminine people stems from heteronormative ideas about men and women – that masculine attracts feminine and vice versa. You would think these ideas might not influence queer relationships – but despite having our own subcultures we’re still very much influenced by the ideas about gender that we’ve been fed since birth.

You can see the same sort of thing I'm talking about when you analyse the most popular gay searches on p0rn sites:

"Straight" appears in the top 3 searches and is the word that appears the most. 

Similar for the U.S



3 of the top 5 searches include "straight" in some form.


I think these kind of statistics no doubt show we have a problem within our community (although, it's not exclusive to the LGBT community by any means) with self-hatred. With struggling with these cis-sexist, heteronormative masculine ideals. I think it's no doubt reflective of internalized homophobia and a desire to conform to the heteronormative masculine ideals we have been taught since birth.

If you think this can be explained by "well top/bottoms are going to be attracted to people they believe will top/bottom them and be uninterested on those who they believe won't" then I don't know how you explain this preoccupation with straight men who are obviously not likely to top or bottom any gay man.

I think the more reasonable explanation is that we live in a society that feeds us these cultural messages around gender roles and masculinity from birth and conditions us to behave in certain ways. When somebody is unable (or chooses not to) behave in a certain way then we are more likely to reject them because they seem strange and challenge our, often subconscious but deeply held, ideas about how men and women should and do act. Many gay men feel more repulsed by femme gay men because they challenge our culture's ideas on gender performance and conformity which makes people uncomfortable. Many gay men fetishise heterosexuality because they wish to be accepted and to be able to conform to that ideal of masculinity (which straight men represent) that they unavoidably cannot attain. 


 

[Chuckles 2,549]

On 09/11/2017 at 10:02 PM, GodofLove said:

I’m a gay man and my preference is manly men. Femme turn me off.. because I’m gay for a reason. I want a MAN. Not a feminine man. 

EDIT: not that I’m saying femme men aren’t men, they are the bravest people I know. It’s just a sexual preference of mine. 

I agree with this post, every gay man is brave but everyone knows what gets them going... and I am looking for a man. Not that I am the most masculine of all to be clear.

[God Control 2,181]

4 hours ago, Bebe said:

Well, you seem to be taking it personally when you're accusing me of bullying you for pointing out a culture that works to uphold particular, harmful gender norms by shaming and ostracizing those who do not, or cannot, conform. There is a total difference between your sexuality and sexual preference - so that's just a false equivalency.

"I'm simply against the idea that a person's interest in another person is a societal influence"

And I think that's pretty naive. We see how people fetishise race and gender in countless studies and statistics. We see it with racial 'preferences'

and in studies like the one we are discussing we see it in gender performance.

"There's definitely a social influence, but ultimately the way our body reacts, the way our deep instincts function, it's who we are rather than what we're taught"

But we are what we are taught, we aren't born with inherent sexual preferences, these preferences don't develop within a bubble separate from our social conditioning in a culture that has complex relationships with race and gender roles. It's hard to overstate the significance that the culture we were born into has on our attitudes, our beliefs, our prejudices and our 'preferences'. 

The tops/bottoms conversation is, in my mind, pretty irrelevant. I don't think you become attracted to a person only when you find out whether they top/bottom, I think gay sexuality is more complex than a simple top/bottom binary and I don't think somebody's masculinity or femininity is always a great indicator of sexual preference. I also think the problem is far deeper though.

The idea that masculine people should be attracted to feminine people stems from heteronormative ideas about men and women – that masculine attracts feminine and vice versa. You would think these ideas might not influence queer relationships – but despite having our own subcultures we’re still very much influenced by the ideas about gender that we’ve been fed since birth.

You can see the same sort of thing I'm talking about when you analyse the most popular gay searches on p0rn sites:

"Straight" appears in the top 3 searches and is the word that appears the most. 

Similar for the U.S



3 of the top 5 searches include "straight" in some form.


I think these kind of statistics no doubt show we have a problem within our community (although, it's not exclusive to the LGBT community by any means) with self-hatred. With struggling with these cis-sexist, heteronormative masculine ideals. I think it's no doubt reflective of internalized homophobia and a desire to conform to the heteronormative masculine ideals we have been taught since birth.

If you think this can be explained by "well top/bottoms are going to be attracted to people they believe will top/bottom them and be uninterested on those who they believe won't" then I don't know how you explain this preoccupation with straight men who are obviously not likely to top or bottom any gay man.

I think the more reasonable explanation is that we live in a society that feeds us these cultural messages around gender roles and masculinity from birth and conditions us to behave in certain ways. When somebody is unable (or chooses not to) behave in a certain way then we are more likely to reject them because they seem strange and challenge our, often subconscious but deeply held, ideas about how men and women should and do act. Many gay men feel more repulsed by femme gay men because they challenge our culture's ideas on gender performance and conformity which makes people uncomfortable. Many gay men fetishise heterosexuality because they wish to be accepted and to be able to conform to that ideal of masculinity (which straight men represent) that they unavoidably cannot attain. 


 

I'm not taking any more personally than it really is. If you're going to generalize that every person who has strict preferences in terms of sex, dating or anything else, even food, is somehow part of the problem, that IS personal in and of itself because it's like you're telling somebody that the reason why they don't want to date someone else is causing a problem, like you somehow owe other people to prefer them and that if they don't lie within your scope of preference, you're somehow conditioned to feel that way, but god forbids you relate a man's effeminate behavior or a woman's masculine behavior to the way they're raised, and all hell would break loose, accusing you of being ignorant and homophobic and that you need to "educate yourself" because they're "born this way" and "being who they are" and are "brave".

As for the heteronormative behavior, I don't see any problem with it. In fact, most of what you're calling a problem is something I wouldn't consider a problem at all. A lot of gay people told me that I'm wrong to want a monogamous relationship, why? because they consider that "being heteronormative". Well how about letting people choose what they want? When I wanna be monogamous for example, it's not because I wanna feel like a straight person or feel normal, it's because I don't want to share my partner. Simple as that and I believe it is instinctual to feel jealousy when your partner is flirting with someone else, and it's independent from one's sexuality or gender or even cultures.

Regarding the web searches for straight **** and your statement regarding a straight person cannot be gay, I have to disagree because a lot of people who consider themselves to be straight for a very long portion of their lives, may suddenly have an encounter that changes that, and it happens a lot. As for searching for straight men's first time being gay in ****, I believe it's always about achieving the unachievable, some form of self-esteem thing. Like "I turned this straight man gay" and a lot of gay men say that and some claim that they find it hot that a guy likes girls too. My point isn't only whether this is purely cultural influence or not, but also that even if it is, I don't think it's a problem at all. 

The only problem there is for me is when a person goes out of their way to shame someone else, to insult someone else, to belittle and humiliate others, and I don't believe that preferring a "straight-acting" man or a macho man or a top only to be something insulting to anybody, nor does it need to change.

Regarding the top/bottom thing, while you may still like somebody regardless of their sexual role, and you definitely don't need to know their sexual role to be attracted to them for the first time, yet there are countless instances when a relationship fails simply because both men lean more towards being bottom or top, so it definitely is a factor, and the reason why I brought that up is because it's more likely for a person who is effeminate to be more of a bottom, and it's common sense for someone who leans more towards being a bottom to look elsewhere before trying to get involved with them and end up not being able to feel what they want to feel with them. Regarding gender roles, I personally don't believe that those are entirely social. Of course, anyone can choose whatever they want to do in life, but there's no question that there are biological and psychological factors that played a huge part in assigning these roles for the majority of people and the maybe the reason why people prefer the "normal" thing, is because it's a thing for the majority, something that is big enough that it feels normal, that it feels right. That's not to say it's wrong to be different, but it's not necessarily out of sheer ignorance nor fear and hatred to want to be the "norm".

It seems to me that a lot of people would rather put the blame on the other side rather than facing reality. If you tell someone that they're not your type, some say "your loss" as if you're really losing something when you don't even want it, or if you say it to someone of a different race, some say "you're just saying this because I'm from X race" and in this case, some femme gays are relating it to the fact that there's a problem with society rather than certain people are simply not interested and they don't owe them any explanation nor any solution. At the end of the day, no one is everyone's cup of tea, and it's really biased and offensive to consider someone suffering from a problem or are part of a bigger problem simply because they don't want a date you and that their feelings aren't genuine, while at the same time, they do everything to prove to the world that their different lifestyle is genuine and not made up or taught.

[Bebe 17,289]

5 minutes ago, Givenchy said:

I'm not taking any more personally than it really is. If you're going to generalize that every person who has strict preferences in terms of sex, dating or anything else, even food, is somehow part of the problem, that IS personal in and of itself because it's like you're telling somebody that the reason why they don't want to date someone else is causing a problem, like you somehow owe other people to prefer them and that if they don't lie within your scope of preference, you're somehow conditioned to feel that way, but god forbids you relate a man's effeminate behavior or a woman's masculine behavior to the way they're raised, and all hell would break loose, accusing you of being ignorant and homophobic and that you need to "educate yourself" because they're "born this way" and "being who they are" and are "brave".

As for the heteronormative behavior, I don't see any problem with it. In fact, most of what you're calling a problem is something I wouldn't consider a problem at all. A lot of gay people told me that I'm wrong to want a monogamous relationship, why? because they consider that "being heteronormative". Well how about letting people choose what they want? When I wanna be monogamous for example, it's not because I wanna feel like a straight person or feel normal, it's because I don't want to share my partner. Simple as that and I believe it is instinctual to feel jealousy when your partner is flirting with someone else, and it's independent from one's sexuality or gender or even cultures.

Regarding the web searches for straight **** and your statement regarding a straight person cannot be gay. I have to disagree because a lot of people who consider themselves to be straight for a very long portion of their lives, many suddenly have an encounter that changes, and it happens a lot. As for searching for straight ****, I believe it's always about achieving the unachievable, some form of self-esteem thing. Like "I turned this straight man gay" and a lot of gay men say that and some claim that they find it hot that a guy likes girls too. My point isn't only whether this is purely cultural influence or not, but also that even if it is, I don't think it's a problem at all. 

The only problem there is for me is when a person goes out of their way to shame someone else, to insult someone else, to be little and humiliate others, and I don't believe that preferring a "straight-acting" man or a macho man or a top only to be something insulting to anybody.

Regarding the top/bottom thing, while you may still like somebody regardless of their sexual role, there are countless instances when a relationship fails simply because both men lean more towards being bottom or top, so it definite is a factor, and the reason why I brought up that factor is that it's more likely for a person who is effeminate to be more of a bottom, and it's common sense for someone who leans more towards being a bottom to look elsewhere before trying to get involved with them and end up not being able to feel what they want to feel with them.

It seems to me that a lot of people would rather put the blame on the other side rather than facing reality. If you tell someone that they're not your type, some say "you're loss" as if you're really losing something when you don't even want it, or if you say it to someone of a different race, some say "you're just saying this because I'm from X race" and in this case, some femme gays are relating it to the fact that there's a problem with society rather than certain people are simply not interested and they don't owe them any explanation nor any solution. At the end of the day, no one is everyone's cup of tea, and it's really biased and offensive to consider someone suffering from a problem or are part of a bigger problem simply because they don't want a date you and that their feelings aren't genuine, while at the same time, they do everything to prove to the world that their different lifestyle is genuine and not made up or taught.

"If you're going to generalize that every person who has strict preferences in terms of sex, dating or anything else, even food, is somehow part of the problem, that IS personal in and of itself because it's like you're telling somebody that the reason why they don't want to date someone else is causing a problem"

I've said time and time again in this thread that I don't care about anybodies personal preferences, what I'm concerned about is the aggregate. With that said, of course each individual ends up contributing to the aggregate .

"but god forbids you relate a man's effeminate behavior or a woman's masculine behavior to the way they're raised, and all hell would break loose, accusing you of being ignorant and homophobic"

That's just nonsense  

"As for the heteronormative behavior, I don't see any problem with it. In fact, most of what you're calling a problem is something I wouldn't consider a problem at all. A lot of gay people told me that I'm wrong to want a monogamous relationship, why? because they consider that "being heteronormative""

You're putting words in my mouth here... That's not my position - the only problem I see with heteronormativity when it comes to monogamous relationships is the shaming of relationships that don't fit the standard of a hetereosexual monogomous relationship.  Heteronormativity in mainstream society creates a "sex hierarchy" that graduates sexual practices from morally "good sex" to "bad sex." The hierarchy places reproductive, monogamous sex between committed heterosexuals as "good" and places any sexual acts and individuals who fall short of this standard lower until they fall into "bad sex." Specifically, this places long-term committed gay couples and promiscuous gays in between the two poles. A monogamous homosexual relationship is not heteronormative even if monogamy is. There is nothing wrong with straight couples in a 'heteronormative' monogamous relationship - the problem is that this is the standard and the ideal. Everything else is treated as lesser.

"Regarding the web searches for straight **** and your statement regarding a straight person cannot be gay. I have to disagree because a lot of people who consider themselves to be straight for a very long portion of their lives, many suddenly have an encounter that changes, and it happens a lot. As for searching for straight ****, I believe it's always about achieving the unachievable, some form of self-esteem thing."

While I'm sure that's a part of the equation, it just simply doesn't equate for the fetishisation on this kind of scale. While 'lesbian' is top of most **** searches for straight men, the term only appears twice in the top 12 U.S searches. For gay men it appears four times in the top 12 U.S searches and other categories within (such as "married", "college roommate", "caught" and "locker room" to name a few) often overlap into the 'straight' category too. There is clearly some kind of sociological phenomenon going on - and when we combine those statistics with statistics like this one, and a hundreds of other studies done on this topic we can build a theory that seemingly perfectly explains this phenomenon....

"Regarding the top/bottom thing, while you may still like somebody regardless of their sexual role, there are countless instances when a relationship fails simply because both men lean more towards being bottom or top, so it definite is a factor"

No, it's a different discussion  It's not relevant to the masc/femme conversation - it's just something you are trying to loop in by relying on stereotypes of masc/femme people.

"It seems to me that a lot of people would rather put the blame on the other side rather than facing reality."

What 'other side'?  and I'm talking about statistics, studies and sociology... This isn't an emotional thing for me - it's just clear that when 71% of gay men prefer certain qualities, there must be a sociological reason behind that. You seem to be pretending like it's random preference, like randomly the vast majority of gay men just have a preference for a certain type and another 41% just randomly believe they give off a bad reputation... No, that's as clear as it could possibly be that society has a problem with femme men, and specifically femme gays and that gay men also have a problem with femme men. Individuals didn't just reach that conclusion randomly void from any influence from the culture they live in - they were influenced by these heteronormative, cis-sexist gender roles that are pushed upon all of us, and enforced from birth.

"If you tell someone that they're not your type, some say "you're loss" as if you're really losing something when you don't even want it, or if you say it to someone of a different race, some say "you're just saying this because I'm from X race" and in this case, some femme gays are relating it to the fact that there's a problem with society rather than certain people are simply not interested and they don't owe them any explanation nor any solution"

Well actually, considering the statistics we have both seen in this thread, it's probably fair for femme men and people of colour to think that there is a problem with society. If you stopped thinking about it in terms of trying to defend your personal preferences and instead tried to see it from the aggregate and the larger picture, maybe you would see the problem. I also think it's imperative of all of us to find a solution to the clear and obvious discriminatory biases we see running through our society. This is a symptom of a huge problem. I genuinely don't know how you cannot see a problem with 41% of gay men saying femme men give them a bad name and 71% of gay men being sexually repulsed by gay men. If you can't see a problem with those numbers and don't see how that relates to a society and culture that promotes and enforces unrealistic and harmful heteronormative, cis-sexist gender norms by rewarding gender normative behaviour and ostracising those who do not or cannot conform - then I don't think we can have a conversation. We just clearly have very two different worldviews.

"At the end of the day, no one is everyone's cup of tea, and it's really biased and offensive to consider someone suffering from a problem or are part of a bigger problem simply because they don't want a date you"

Nobody is claiming everyone should be, or is going to be, everyone's cup of tea'. I think it's pretty biased and offensive to ignore how this is a problem on an aggregate level because you're suddenly insecure about your preferences. I don't consider myself femme by the way and I'm guilty of problematic sexual fantasies and biases in the same way basically everyone on the planet is. Nobody's in the clear just because they would date a femme guy - we all work, often subconsciously, to enforce these same harmful ideals in a number of ways - as I keep trying to stress this is a problem on a societal level, not a personal one. It just helps to be less defensive and more reflective when it comes to these issues and right now I think you're just hung up on rationalising and defending your own preferences, which you were conditioned into having without much (if any) conscious agency anyway.

[God Control 2,181]

47 minutes ago, Bebe said:

"If you're going to generalize that every person who has strict preferences in terms of sex, dating or anything else, even food, is somehow part of the problem, that IS personal in and of itself because it's like you're telling somebody that the reason why they don't want to date someone else is causing a problem"

1. I've said time and time again in this thread that I don't care about anybodies personal preferences, what I'm concerned about is the aggregate. With that said, of course each individual ends up contributing to the aggregate .

"but god forbids you relate a man's effeminate behavior or a woman's masculine behavior to the way they're raised, and all hell would break loose, accusing you of being ignorant and homophobic"

2. That's just nonsense  

"As for the heteronormative behavior, I don't see any problem with it. In fact, most of what you're calling a problem is something I wouldn't consider a problem at all. A lot of gay people told me that I'm wrong to want a monogamous relationship, why? because they consider that "being heteronormative""

3. You're putting words in my mouth here... That's not my position - the only problem I see with heteronormativity when it comes to monogamous relationships is the shaming of relationships that don't fit the standard of a hetereosexual monogomous relationship.  Heteronormativity in mainstream society creates a "sex hierarchy" that graduates sexual practices from morally "good sex" to "bad sex." The hierarchy places reproductive, monogamous sex between committed heterosexuals as "good" and places any sexual acts and individuals who fall short of this standard lower until they fall into "bad sex." Specifically, this places long-term committed gay couples and promiscuous gays in between the two poles. A monogamous homosexual relationship is not heteronormative even if monogamy is. There is nothing wrong with straight couples in a 'heteronormative' monogamous relationship - the problem is that this is the standard and the ideal. Everything else is treated as lesser.

"Regarding the web searches for straight **** and your statement regarding a straight person cannot be gay. I have to disagree because a lot of people who consider themselves to be straight for a very long portion of their lives, many suddenly have an encounter that changes, and it happens a lot. As for searching for straight ****, I believe it's always about achieving the unachievable, some form of self-esteem thing."

4. While I'm sure that's a part of the equation, it just simply doesn't equate for the fetishisation on this kind of scale. While 'lesbian' is top of most **** searches for straight men, the term only appears twice in the top 12 U.S searches. For gay men it appears four times in the top 12 U.S searches and other categories within (such as "married", "college roommate", "caught" and "locker room" to name a few) often overlap into the 'straight' category too. There is clearly some kind of sociological phenomenon going on - and when we combine those statistics with statistics like this one, and a hundreds of other studies done on this topic we can build a theory that seemingly perfectly explains this phenomenon....

"Regarding the top/bottom thing, while you may still like somebody regardless of their sexual role, there are countless instances when a relationship fails simply because both men lean more towards being bottom or top, so it definite is a factor"

5. No, it's a different discussion  It's not relevant to the masc/femme conversation - it's just something you are trying to loop in by relying on stereotypes of masc/femme people.

"It seems to me that a lot of people would rather put the blame on the other side rather than facing reality."

6. What 'other side'?  and I'm talking about statistics, studies and sociology... This isn't an emotional thing for me - it's just clear that when 71% of gay men prefer certain qualities, there must be a sociological reason behind that. You seem to be pretending like it's random preference, like randomly the vast majority of gay men just have a preference for a certain type and another 41% just randomly believe they give off a bad reputation... No, that's as clear as it could possibly be that society has a problem with femme men, and specifically femme gays and that gay men also have a problem with femme men. Individuals didn't just reach that conclusion randomly void from any influence from the culture they live in - they were influenced by these heteronormative, cis-sexist gender roles that are pushed upon all of us, and enforced from birth.

"If you tell someone that they're not your type, some say "you're loss" as if you're really losing something when you don't even want it, or if you say it to someone of a different race, some say "you're just saying this because I'm from X race" and in this case, some femme gays are relating it to the fact that there's a problem with society rather than certain people are simply not interested and they don't owe them any explanation nor any solution"

7. Well actually, considering the statistics we have both seen in this thread, it's probably fair for femme men and people of colour to think that there is a problem with society. If you stopped thinking about it in terms of trying to defend your personal preferences and instead tried to see it from the aggregate and the larger picture, maybe you would see the problem. I also think it's imperative of all of us to find a solution to the clear and obvious discriminatory biases we see running through our society. This is a symptom of a huge problem. I genuinely don't know how you cannot see a problem with 41% of gay men saying femme men give them a bad name and 71% of gay men being sexually repulsed by gay men. If you can't see a problem with those numbers and don't see how that relates to a society and culture that promotes and enforces unrealistic and harmful heteronormative, cis-sexist gender norms by rewarding gender normative behaviour and ostracising those who do not or cannot conform - then I don't think we can have a conversation. We just clearly have very two different worldviews.

"At the end of the day, no one is everyone's cup of tea, and it's really biased and offensive to consider someone suffering from a problem or are part of a bigger problem simply because they don't want a date you"

8. Nobody is claiming everyone should be, or is going to be, everyone's cup of tea'. I think it's pretty biased and offensive to ignore how this is a problem on an aggregate level because you're suddenly insecure about your preferences. I don't consider myself femme by the way and I'm guilty of problematic sexual fantasies and biases in the same way basically everyone on the planet is. Nobody's in the clear just because they would date a femme guy - we all work, often subconsciously, to enforce these same harmful ideals in a number of ways - as I keep trying to stress this is a problem on a societal level, not a personal one. It just helps to be less defensive and more reflective when it comes to these issues and right now I think you're just hung up on rationalising and defending your own preferences, which you were conditioned into having without much (if any) conscious agency anyway.

1. But we should be able to tell the difference between each "contribution". The fact that manly men turn me on and not others simply because I like manly men and wild sex, is different from thinking that femme gays give a bad reputation to LGBT people. They may both end up making other people feel bad about themselves or feel less desired but it's not my problem to make someone else feel desirable.

2. Please elaborate, because if you claim that gender roles and manly behaviors are taught and acquired and not something you're born with then the same thing goes for feminine features. If you're implying that I only 'act' manly because I was taught to act manly then someone who acts in a feminine way is probably that way because they somehow acquired it in their upbringing. The sword swings both ways.

3. I didn't suggest that you said that, I'm just saying that this is an example of things that people have told me and other people before, and I simply shed light on it and expressed my disagreement with it. Again, not every person who doesn't prefer a specific gender is doing so because they think someone else is lesser. A man who desires Asian women doesn't necessarily feel that way because he thinks white and black women are lesser than asian women. Sometimes it is indeed just preference.

4. Since we're talking statistics, everything seems to be based on US measures. There's a whole world beyond the United States, billions more people than the 320,000,000 population of the U.S., many of which are open and closeted gay men, lesbians, bisexual people, curious, transgender, straight... you name it, that may live by different principles or prefer a different type of people and behaviors than the U.S. So I think it's kinda biased to base something on one nation only, and these numbers only show us what the people are seeing, not their reasons for seeing what they're seeing, just like the simulated rape **** or the brutal sex in **** videos that is created to look like it's forced, doesn't necessarily mean that it's directed for an audience of rapists, because a lot of people simply like the idea and the fetish of being controlled and forced, so I think of it more as a fetish than anything.

5. Absolutely not. I personally am a bottom, and I don't see myself being in bed with someone who is too petite or delicate, mainly because I love the idea of someone being larger and stronger than me taking control, being rough and passionate..etc. and no, it's not self-hatred either because I'm perfectly fine with who I am and I'm neither closeted nor ashamed of who I am, I simply feel turned on by this image for as long as I can remember. I can't see myself being versatile either, so I wouldn't fool myself into being with someone who doesn't fit my ideal image of a relationship nor someone who, instead of giving me what I want, wants exactly what I want. People may think this is me trying to be the "woman" in my relationship and him being "the man", but I honestly don't care what the world thinks of it as long as it feels right for me.

But generally speaking, I don't think a very femme gay man would likely be interested in being top and other gays know it or assume it, therefore, if they have similar desires, they will stay away from dating this type because they know very well that their interests aren't gonna make their relationship work very well. This is why it's relevant. You can continue to tell me that it doesn't fit the discussion, but it does because this is just how I see it just like you you chose to see it as hate and shame.

6. The other side is the side that is complaining and thinking that every person who doesn't want to date them is ashamed of them, just like how many feminists who don't look in the "typical" feminine way think that there's something wrong with men who aren't attracted to them, and that's not true, because if someone likes the typical features of a female, so what?

7. They're free to think that there's a problem with society. It's up to them, and there are problems indeed. It's not like there aren't people who feel other people are less than they are. But just immediately assuming that anyone who doesn't wanna date you is ashamed of you further amplifies the rift people and emphasizing on the hatred between people.

As for the statistics, I'm curious to see the source of these numbers, how did they survey these people? did they interview every gay man in the world or a good sample of people from all over the world or is it just from the US? how reliable are these numbers and how do these people express that "repulsion" or "shame". Like does someone go out of their way to shame someone else or it's more of an internal thing? because that changes a lot of things.

I'm pretty sure that shaming and attacking others is a problem. No one should be judged just because of their outlook or behavior, and no one should be judged for the type of partner they want to be and no one owes the world an explanation for who they are and what they want. My whole point was that while there may be problems of such practices, people are simply preferring one thing over another isn't the problem itself and not every person who prefers something normal is doing so because they're conditioned to do so, some people genuinely like certain stuff just like how some people prefer specific foods, specific outfits, specific genres of music. At least that's just how I see it. 

8. You keep mentioning that these desires are "harmful ideas", and insist that I was conditioned to feel that way without even knowing me personally or where I grew up, what I've been through. I disagree with that and I explained why in the paragraphs above. To make the perspective clearer for you, imagine a femme gay man being told that the reason why he's femme is because he was raised "the wrong way". Would that be acceptable? because again, if upbringing can make you idolize the manly man and being manly yourself because it's "right" then upbringing can also make you the opposite. For example, maybe being raised in a house full of girls will make the only boy have girly interests? would that be acceptable for you? because if you accept the other side, you really need to accept this too. It works both ways.

What's really a huge problem for me is that there are gays around the world who are forced to marry women to avoid suspicion of being gay because they could get shunned, disowned or even prisoned or killed for it while other gays are so worried about why no one is dating them because of their femme behavior, and none of these prides and marches or any of these organizations is doing any effort to help those people in other places. What breaks my heart is that so many Iraqi and Syrian gay men are shamed as refugees and considered "Muslim invasion" when they simply wanna live a peaceful life in an accepting society. I think if there's such thing as a gay community, than that community should encompass all gays around the world, not gays in one country and that such cases should be prioritized because they're matters of life and death. But that's a whole different discussion for a whole different thread.

 

[Popo 3,781]

On 10/11/2017 at 1:57 PM, Luk said:

i might go assexual this days, men can disgust me even more every single day.

Implying that you cab change your sexuality, turn into a unicorn while you're at it

[Claymore 671]

I'm gay because I'm attracted to male identifying people and the male body. Being feminine is perfectly fine with me. It's just a facet of one's personality.

I don't get the '' I'm gay so it doesn't make sense to hook up with feminine guys because I want a MAN''.

You're just attracted to a bunch of traits that in your mind makes up a MAN. In my mind as long as you have a penis (or don't, I've dated trans guys)  and consider yourself to be a man than you're a man and that's enough for me.