Spain to take over Catalonia after declaring independence

[Florian 20,017]

3 minutes ago, Melech said:

The referendum and independence wasn't democratic at all as well though. Not even 50% voted in the referendum and yet Catalonian lawmaker called for independence. That's not how it works. 

I never said it was lmao. 

And "that's not how it works" please give me 1 exemple of thing that works ?

Spain wouldn't modify the constitution to allow a referendum anyway so there is no legal way. Or the legal way is statu quo until someone say "oh maybe we should do something about Catalonia". That sentence should have been said 7 years ago. What do you expect? More waiting? You guys can barely wait 2 years for a Gaga album, so please let's not start on real social issues.

[Melech 9,900]

Just now, Florian said:

I never said it was lmao. 

And "that's not how it works" please give me 1 exemple of thing that works ?

Spain wouldn't modify the constitution to allow a referendum anyway so there is no legal way. Or the legal way is statu quo until someone say "oh maybe we should do something about Catalonia". That sentence should have been said 7 years ago. What do you expect? More waiting? You guys can barely wait 2 years for a Gaga album, so please let's not start on real social issues.

I don't really know how why you need to get personal right now? Because this is not how a discussion can work.

[Florian 20,017]

Just now, Melech said:

I don't really know how why you need to get personal right now? Because this is not how a discussion can work.

How a discussion works is not twisting words, read, and answer.

I added a bit of sass in my last sentence, no big deal.

As for getting personal I'm even more surprised by the side you chose in this mess. I know we both stand for a federal Europe and I wonder how you can accept the lack of communication within a country !! SO IMAGINE AT THE EU SCALE  I'm sorry but I don't want of a federal union where some parties aren't listened, where people go to jail for their politic ideas and where EU leaders don't call out Madrid for the police repression ! I've never been more disappointed in Macron and Merkel

[Melech 9,900]

Just now, Florian said:

How a discussion works is not twisting words, read, and answer.

I added a bit of sass in my last sentence, no big deal.

As for getting personal I'm even more surprised by the side you chose in this mess. I know we both stand for a federal Europe and I wonder how you can accept the lack of communication within a country !! SO IMAGINE AT THE EU SCALE  I'm sorry but I don't want of a federal union where some parties aren't listened, where people go to jail for their politic ideas and where EU leaders don't call out Madrid for the police repression ! I've never been more disappointed in Macron and Merkel

Yeah and that sass doesn't need to be added. 

I didn't take any side because you can't take any side in this conflict. Merkel and the German government are pushing for dialogue between Spain and Catalonia, which is the only sane thing to do right now. 

"Angesichts der Zuspitzung des Konflikts zwischen der Region Katalonien und der spanischen Zentralregierung hat die Bundesregierung "zum Dialog und zur Deeskalation" aufgerufen."

Due to the conflict between between Catalonia and the spanish central government the government of the federal [republic of germany] calls for a dialogue and de-escalation. 

 

[Florian 20,017]

5 minutes ago, Melech said:

"Angesichts der Zuspitzung des Konflikts zwischen der Region Katalonien und der spanischen Zentralregierung hat die Bundesregierung "zum Dialog und zur Deeskalation" aufgerufen."

And that sentence should have been said 2 weeks ago. If they weren't dumb they would have tried to find stability before the independence even happened.

I still wonder how Rajoy hasn't quit yet, he'll remain ine of the worst leader modern Spain has ever had

[Melech 9,900]

1 minute ago, Florian said:

And that sentence should have been said 2 weeks ago. If they weren't dumb they would have tried to find stability before the independence even happened.

I still wonder how Rajoy hasn't quit yet, he'll remain ine of the worst leader modern Spain has ever had

I think we need to wait for the elections. The independence is illegal, alone because the majority of Catalans didn't even vote. 

[Florian 20,017]

1 minute ago, Melech said:

I think we need to wait for the elections. The independence is illegal, alone because the majority of Catalans didn't even vote. 

I hope independentist will get an even bigger majority so they'll have leverage over Madrid.

Catalonia won't be independent, at this point they're just waiting to be offered a new status of economy. They're winner in both cases

[Melech 9,900]

7 minutes ago, Florian said:

I hope independentist will get an even bigger majority so they'll have leverage over Madrid.

Catalonia won't be independent, at this point they're just waiting to be offered a new status of economy. They're winner in both cases

Well, I hope it de-escalates and solution will be found diplomatically. Catalonia won't win if it actually gets independent  

I don't want Europe to go back to this:

 

[MonsterOfSpain 8,331]

37 minutes ago, Florian said:

I'm FRENCH, I'm not following any independentist media or association, I'm not driven by any independentist mantra. If Northern Catalonia was asking to join Catalonia as a state I would vote no   . I base my opinion on history and facts !

You're not READING what I'm saying. I'm talking about centuries of history and you're talking about the last few years. PUT THINGS IN CONTEXT !

Catalonia is in the top 20 of the NUT2 gdp ranking !!!  There are 276 NUT2 areas !! The EU can't let Catalonia go away. 

As for the 1500 that's complete propaganda. They didn't LEFT Catalonia, they moved their head offices (aka an address on a paper) and that's completely logical. Why would a company risk to lost the access to the 500 millions people of the EU. A company needs stability to grow. But be sure that if Catalonia became a better option in the future they'll move their head office back.

The real problem isn't Catalonia ! The real problem is how Madrid has handled things for almost a decade. The only responsibles for this mess are the people in charge of the Moncloa for the past 7 years !!

It's also funny how you only answer to 10% of my message. But well, it's hard to face the truth.

Since you love talking about "facts", I'll give you the facts:

- Independestist parties got 47% of the popular vote in the 2015 elections, they only got a majority in the parliament because of the electoral system which favors the smaller, independentist provinces over the most populated ones (to get a seat in Lleida you need like 3 times less votes than in Barcelona).

- To change the Catalan Statute of Autonomy, the most important Catalan law, you need 2/3s of the Parliament (that would be 90 out of 135). The DUI was supported by 70 MP's yesterday.

- On September 6, the Catalan government passed the Referendum law in a totally authoritarian way, without giving the chance to opposition parties to present amendments or participate at all during the debate.

- The referendum was declared inconstitutional by the Spanish Constitutional Court, the highest legal body of the State.

- Only 42% of the census voted in the October 1st referendum. The results were declared by the Generalitat itself, not by an independent source. People were seen voting multiple times as there was absolutely no control for some parts of the day. Although I condemn the use of violence by the Spanish police, he list of +1000 injured during that day is completely innacurate and fake.

- Such an important decision was taken with a secret vote. They weren't brave enough to take responsibility and assume their vote cause at the end of the day the know the Spanish courts would impute them, even if they had declared their wonderful republic.

- The president (now ex-president) who led this whole process wasn't voted by the Catalan people at all it was handpicked to avoid the repetition of the elections.

And you still want to make it look like it's something democratic and legitimate? Oh please.

[Florian 20,017]

2 minutes ago, MonsterOfSpain said:

And you still want to make it look like it's something democratic and legitimate? Oh please.

Once again you're not READING. Please learn to do that first !

You're skipping my ENTIRE argumentation to argue on a point that I haven't even stated, or maybe you're not reading  At least you're consistent

 

 

[Florian 20,017]

7 minutes ago, Melech said:

Well, I hope it de-escalates and solution will be found diplomatically. Catalonia won't win if it actually gets independent  

I don't want Europe to go back to this:

As I stated above, Catalonia won't be let out of EU, their economy is too strong and important for the Union. I definitelly see them being part of Schengen and paying to have access to the market. Realpolitik always win at the end, for the best and the worst

[MonsterOfSpain 8,331]

6 minutes ago, Florian said:

Once again you're not READING. Please learn to do that first !

You're skipping my ENTIRE argumentation to argue on a point that I haven't even stated, or maybe you're not reading  At least you're consistent

 

 

I do agree that PP's tragic government has largely contributed in a growth of independentists. Indeed, most of people want to become independent from the PP, not from Spain itself. But it's still highly hipocrytical that CDC (now renamed PdeCAT), the party who leads the whole independence process, was founded by Jordi Pujol, one of the most corrupt politicians in democratic Spain who hid tens of millions of euros in Andorra for decades while he was the president of Catalonia. And he was the same one who supported PP governments year after year in the Spanish parliament so he could get privileges for Catalonia. And what I find even more outrageous is the fact that so-called leftist like ERC or even the antisystem CUP allied with this corrupt party to become independent. Catalonia can't give any lessons about corruption, if they really think independence is gonna end corruption they couldn't be further from truth.

[Florian 20,017]

1 minute ago, MonsterOfSpain said:

I do agree that PP's tragic government has largely contributed in a growth of independentists. Indeed, most of people want to become independent from the PP, not from Spain itself. But it's still highly hipocrytical that CDC (now renamed PdeCAT), the party who leads the whole independence process, was founded by Jordi Pujol, one of the most corrupt politicians in democratic Spain who hid tens of millions of euros in Andorra for decades while he was the president of Catalonia. And he was the same one who supported PP governments year after year in the Spanish parliament so he could get privileges for Catalonia. And what I find even more outrageous is the fact that so-called leftist like ERC or even the antisystem CUP allied with this corrupt party to declare independent. Catalonia can't give any lessons about corruption, if they really think independence is gonna end corruption they couldn't be further from truth.

Your entire politic world is corrupted in Spain, let's not try to play the "mine is less corrupted than yours". Rajoy has been reelected after his corruption issues, so let's not.

[MonsterOfSpain 8,331]

3 minutes ago, Florian said:

As I stated above, Catalonia won't be let out of EU, their economy is too strong and important for the Union. I definitelly see them being part of Schengen and paying to have access to the market. Realpolitik always win at the end, for the best and the worst

The thing is that all the member countries have to agree so they can go in, and Spain, Germany, France, Italy and all countries with nationalist regions would never allow it! Catalonia would have to negotiate treaties with every country from 0. It would be an economic tragedy.

[MonsterOfSpain 8,331]

Just now, Florian said:

Your entire politic world is corrupted in Spain, let's not try to play the "mine is less corrupted than yours". Rajoy has been reelected after his corruption issues, so let's not.

But the thing is Catalonia is filled with corruption aswell! So why do they wanna become independent? The rise of the whole independent process was due to the corruption cases coming to light tbh, Artur Mas used to say that his party wasn't favorable of independence yet when cases about his party started appearing he changed his mind from one day to another. It's honestly so insulting to the Catalan people.

And as I said before I'm absolutely against Rajoy's government, but the thing is Catalan parties had a chance back in 2016 to support a PSOE-led government yet they refused to (same as left-wing PODEMOS btw).