Cultural Appropriation

[Oriane 21,116]

20 hours ago, stvn said:

Like only the people who "invented" something (music, fashion...) in the culture have the right to like it.

Nobody is saying they don't have the right to like it. If they're going to commoditize or fetishize or misrepresent something that they don't fully understand and haven't experienced then that can harm communities. Please read my previous comments where I talk more about this.

recently in OITNB, one of characters cries because a white girl plays a role in a musical that was originally by a black performer, and she says that white people stole black culture etc. But then when they want to do a black Hermione or a black James Bond they're all here for it ?

Okay, this is just ignorant. I'm not trying to be rude against you personally, but this is a fully ignorant statement. CONTEXT MATTERS.

1) Hermoine's race was never a central issue in the book, and in fact, her skin color was never mentioned.

2) Black actors are still to this day misrepresented and unrepresented and unfairly cast and treated, so giving a black actor a white (or what people perceive to be white) role is not the same in effect as giving a black role to a white performer. That doesn't mean that in ALL cases it's problematic for a white person to play a role previously played by a black person, but the context matters.

3) Dreamgirls is specifically a story about black women. That is central to the narrative -- the way black culture was, the way black people (and women especially) were treated -- this was what the story was about. If you can't empathize with a young black girl who is marginalized and living in a poor community for feeling like people like her are erased, that's kind of monstrous. The inability of some of you to put yourself in someone else's shoes and understand complex situations and different context is seriously mind-boggling.

Nobody is saying they don't have the right to like it. If they're going to commoditize or fetishize or misrepresent something that they don't fully understand and haven't experienced then that can harm communities. Please read my previous comments where I talk more about this.

Then you should see all the comments I see saying "oh white people who like rap and hip-hop are just stealing black culture". I remember last year on this site a guy who was saying that we couldn't use gifs of black people because it was appropriating black culture (I think he was half trolling, half serious, but he's certainly not the only one like this).

Of course when Hitler uses the svastika as a Nazi symbol, yes this is bad and harmful. But if you just want to use cultural things, clothes, symbols etc from another culture just because you like it, why couldn't you ? Why is there always a need to attach the cultural meaning to a simple object or visual ? I find geisha looks very beautiful for example, why not letting an artist use them just because they find them beautiful too ? Should only Japanese people have a right to use this, because they're supposed to know the meaning better ? Unless it's used as a way to mock the culture, I don't see how it's bad.

But it's not only a cultural matter, a lot of things have a meaning in people's mind, and it's unfortunate we can't change that. For clothes especially, we just can't wear any clothes we want because it will be associated with some meaning (casual clothes for chilling but more serious for a professional context and classy for a "serious" party...).

Okay, this is just ignorant. I'm not trying to be rude against you personally, but this is a fully ignorant statement. CONTEXT MATTERS.

1) Hermoine's race was never a central issue in the book, and in fact, her skin color was never mentioned.

2) Black actors are still to this day misrepresented and unrepresented and unfairly cast and treated, so giving a black actor a white (or what people perceive to be white) role is not the same in effect as giving a black role to a white performer. That doesn't mean that in ALL cases it's problematic for a white person to play a role previously played by a black person, but the context matters.

3) Dreamgirls is specifically a story about black women. That is central to the narrative -- the way black culture was, the way black people (and women especially) were treated -- this was what the story was about. If you can't empathize with a young black girl who is marginalized and living in a poor community for feeling like people like her are erased, that's kind of monstrous. The inability of some of you to put yourself in someone else's shoes and understand complex situations and different context is seriously mind-boggling.

Yes I can't empathize with this poor young black girl, I'm just a monster. Spoiler, I've never heard of that musical and had no idea what it was talking about, I just saw a white girl singing on stage and another crying because she wasn't black. So maybe you're right, I should check the story. But it doesn't change the fact that whenever a black character (whose color skin didn't matter to the story) would be then played by a white actor, the backlash would be worse than if it was the other way. 

[StrawberryBlond 14,881]

19 hours ago, ItsTommyBitch said:

I see.

I honestly thought you were trolling because with this topic people are often like "Well, if cornrows are appropriation, then what about *insert super white thing*? Black people use that" and its like they arent really trying or dont really get it and I was just tired of it. Sorry for jumping down your throat  

TO ME, Cultural Appropriation isnt the largest issue in the world for Social Justice, but it doesnt hurt to bring up when its appropriate (). Like, white women looking trendy for having natural hair styles for black women is imo always worth bringing attention to, because black women ARE persecuted, seen as unattractive, unprofessional, etc. for having natural hair and they are told by society that they have to have "white hair" to be taken seriously. Some black men even find black women unattractive because of their natural hair. It's actually a deeply politicized topic  And Katy wearing cornrows and eating watermelon in the "This is How We Do" video was just honestly racist, it was literally both her taking from black culture and using black stereotypes for comedy at the same time  

I think it's a reasonable point to make because appropriation is a two-way street or it should be, at least. Assimilation isn't a thing anymore, you can wear whatever you like. And you can even be laughed at for wearing that which is associated with your own culture, like white goths being teased by other white people. There's always going to be somebody who disagrees with how you're presenting yourself, whether you're their race or not.

I honestly have struggled to find mass acceptance of white women in black hairstyles, the exact opposite, in fact. I've explained in my previous post why I've felt that my almost-waist length, natural, unruly red hair was unprofessional. Any hairstyle that isn't straight, swept back and neat is generally seen as unprofessional and that covers all races. And yes, while some black men dislike black women's natural hair, that is a problem among all races, white included. Everyone who has ever been nasty about my red hair has been white and whites are the only ones who can have red hair naturally. Other races have been all too kind about my hair (apart from this one black girl I once saw online saying it wasn't beautiful at all - she had natural black hair herself, how ironic). I'm actually starting to think there's some connection between black men and a like of red hair because that's where I see the majority of the praise coming from. But since there's no black people near me, I'm in with no chance on that front. I can't get a date, I've never had a date. So, I think the concept of a white woman having it made when it comes to finding romantic interest is pretty much shattered right there.

Katy was not eating watermelon in a racist way. It was a reference to her early image when she debuted, when she wore playsuits and had retro imagery, one of which was a playsuit decorated in watermelons. She even held one up to her mouth as the promo image on her debut tour. The watermelons and fruit motifs in general have been a big part of her early imagery and it was a nod to that. People just didn't do their research before speculating.

As humans, we're naturally inclined to separate ourselves needlessly. If we're all white, we'll find something else to separate us. That has been the story of my life. To this day, I still walk around feeling like I'm different to everyone else, I feel like everyone looks at me differently because of how I've been held up as different all throughout my life. Even though I think I look perfectly normal. My skin tone, my height, my glasses (which I no longer wear), my hair colour/length/consistency, my reserved personality. I just seem to be a magnet for people to pick on and I don't know why. It isn't just something limited to minorities.

19 hours ago, Wolf said:

Even though someone does not mean disrespect with appropriating a culture, doesn't mean the have the liberty to just wear anything they want. You need to know the line whether something is okay to be worn or not. 

People love to wear a cultural aesthetic without taking the time to learn and understand the meaning behind it. The thing is, Geisha culture dates back from 1700s. Women from Japan train since their childhood to become a Geisha and also gain their ranks throughout their lives. 

"From the way a Geisha does her makeup and hair to her clothing, its symbolism for something sacred. It is not a costume you can put on- like many other cultures, it’s something you have to earn." http://www.lappthebrand.com/2017/02/16/the-vogue-problem-with-cultural-appropriation/

It's not that people just want to hate Katy Perry. She's just absolutely wrong. A proper Geisha outfit should cover the legs BUT she made it look sexy. How do YOU think Japanese people would react? Would they just be okay with that? NO.

I can't with all of y'all in this thread. Clearly most of you are OBVIOUSLY white/privileged, cause you sound just like it. Obviously you don't know jack sh*t about other people disrespecting your own culture. Check your privilege.

Katy is not dressed as a geisha. Geishas don't wear anything like that. She is wearing a minidress with a traditional Asian print embroidered onto it. Nobody would give a damn if it came from a "white" country, was a paisley print or something. Literally nobody has a problem with a fashion garment until it didn't come from a white person's heritage. She's showing her legs because it's a minidress, not a geisha robe. What part are you not getting?

And believe that there are non-white people who are just as much against this nonsense. And plenty of white people have researched these claims and debunked them. Not agreeing doesn't equal uneducated. And my culture has been disrespected. You don't seriously believe that it's just non-white cultures that get stereotyped and made fun of, do you?

14 hours ago, 15jocart said:

No, it's not. Just because you're learning about something in 2017 doesn't make it new.

I just told you that I started hearing this 2 or so years ago. And I was aware of the concept before then but wouldn't have given it this term. It meant something a lot different before now and it wasn't the big deal it is now. Don't patronise me and assume I'm ignorant.

[Benji 20,113]

I'm glad this isn't really an issue in the U.K., it's tiring to read the same arguments and people getting extremely offended over it.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's bad when people mock another culture but showing appreciation for it is not a problem. It's called taste, you should know how to be respectful and take part in something. I suppose I'm lucky though, whilst there are racism issues here, we seem far more integrated in the UK and we all take part in each other's culture. For example, hundreds of people gathered for street celebrations in my city to mark the end of Ramadan, Muslims and non-Muslims.

I'll be honest, the US seems quite in the past but SJW's take everything to an extreme to try and compensate for it but it just goes too far.

[Hurem 17,800]

2 minutes ago, Benji said:

Don't get me wrong, I think it's bad when people mock another culture but showing appreciation for it is not a problem.

This, this, this!  

[HANZ 4,380]

I'm mexican and I could care less when white and black people wear sombreros or marichi suits and eat tacos and burritos

actually I'm flattered that they appreciate my culture that much that they want to wear, celebrate and eat all of that

there's a difference between mocking and appreciation

some queens need to chil about cultural appreciation

 

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

2 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I honestly have struggled to find mass acceptance of white women in black hairstyles, the exact opposite, in fact. I've explained in my previous post why I've felt that my almost-waist length, natural, unruly red hair was unprofessional. Any hairstyle that isn't straight, swept back and neat is generally seen as unprofessional and that covers all races. And yes, while some black men dislike black women's natural hair, that is a problem among all races, white included. Everyone who has ever been nasty about my red hair has been white and whites are the only ones who can have red hair naturally. Other races have been all too kind about my hair (apart from this one black girl I once saw online saying it wasn't beautiful at all - she had natural black hair herself, how ironic). I'm actually starting to think there's some connection between black men and a like of red hair because that's where I see the majority of the praise coming from. But since there's no black people near me, I'm in with no chance on that front. I can't get a date, I've never had a date. So, I think the concept of a white woman having it made when it comes to finding romantic interest is pretty much shattered right there.

Katy was not eating watermelon in a racist way. It was a reference to her early image when she debuted, when she wore playsuits and had retro imagery, one of which was a playsuit decorated in watermelons. She even held one up to her mouth as the promo image on her debut tour. The watermelons and fruit motifs in general have been a big part of her early imagery and it was a nod to that. People just didn't do their research before speculating.

As humans, we're naturally inclined to separate ourselves needlessly. If we're all white, we'll find something else to separate us. That has been the story of my life. To this day, I still walk around feeling like I'm different to everyone else, I feel like everyone looks at me differently because of how I've been held up as different all throughout my life. Even though I think I look perfectly normal. My skin tone, my height, my glasses (which I no longer wear), my hair colour/length/consistency, my reserved personality. I just seem to be a magnet for people to pick on and I don't know why. It isn't just something limited to minorities.

 

First of... yes, assimilation is a thing still what  Secondly, all I see is you trying to find reasons to be like "but we're all the same!" when these are specifically racially charged incidents that require focused discussion. It's derailing. I don't care about romantic relationships here, its not why I brought up black men finding black women's hair unattractive, it was to highlight that societal images about beauty are that powerful, and things like cultural appropriation of hair contribute to the problem.

About Katy (well, things in general), Intent < Effect. Not meaning to be racist doesn't make you not  The watermelon is also hardly the only problematic thing about the video. Beyond that, not trying to be rude, but your personal experiences don't have much to do with this issue.

[JesseBabe 837]

While I do think that there is a fine line between appreciating a person's culture and appropriating it, I also think it's a little bit excessive to say that if a person wants to wear or do something that is influenced by another culture they need to be fully educated on everything with said culture. Like I don't expect Katy to give me a full on history lesson on Japanese culture if she wants to wear a dress. 

But at the same time, knowing her past and how sheltered she was growing up it makes sense as to why she is unaware of some of the things she does. 

[Ziggy 11,870]

Unless it impacts you I don't think it's your place to comment on it. I let those who feel marginalized tell me if it's right or wrong. Like, cultural appropriation is not my place to wager an opinion as I'm a white guy.

From what I hear, though, people aren't okay with it because they feel like people will take bits and pieces of other cultures' without actually giving recognition or appreciation of said culture. It's empty. People are bothered by it because they are oppressed every day for being themselves but then others wear their braids or robes and it's "cool" or "exotic" and fetishized. Like, it's only cool when white people do it, but minority figures do it and people shame them for it.

[StrawberryBlond 14,881]

18 hours ago, ItsTommyBitch said:

First of... yes, assimilation is a thing still what  Secondly, all I see is you trying to find reasons to be like "but we're all the same!" when these are specifically racially charged incidents that require focused discussion. It's derailing. I don't care about romantic relationships here, its not why I brought up black men finding black women's hair unattractive, it was to highlight that societal images about beauty are that powerful, and things like cultural appropriation of hair contribute to the problem.

About Katy (well, things in general), Intent < Effect. Not meaning to be racist doesn't make you not  The watermelon is also hardly the only problematic thing about the video. Beyond that, not trying to be rude, but your personal experiences don't have much to do with this issue.

How is it still a thing? What laws are in place telling people what they can and can't wear or what culture they can and can't engage in if they are not a native of the country they live in? Laws telling people they'll be fined or jailed for doing these things? Exactly - there are none. There are anti-discrimination laws in place to stop this kind of stuff. We live in a multicultural society, so you can't tell people what they can and can't do when it comes to culture. It's the first rule of modern society. And I'm trying to tell you the opposite ironically using those words that you just said - what annoys me is that so many claims of racial struggle nowadays are not racially charged and are something that we all go through. I'm fine if people want to talk about genuine racial struggle for minorities, as in, struggles that don't exist for white people or won't affect them to the same degree. But lately, I have seen so many claims that certain struggles just happen to minorities when it's clearly not true and I don't know what alternate dimension these people are living in to think otherwise. That is the stuff I'm protesting against, not real racial struggle. My intent is not to derail, it's to point out obvious flaws. I'm actually trying to help these people make better arguments by informing them that some of their claims are baseless and maybe they should drop them in favour of focusing on the stuff that actually affects them and only them so people will take them seriously. And I brought up how white people find certain specific white traits unappealing to point out that this is a problem in all racial communities. Every race has some level of desire to have attributes that they can't naturally have and have some level of dislike for some of their own natural traits. Humans are weird like that. If white traits are considered the most beautiful, then how come I, as a white, blue-eyed, red-haired women, can't get a date and have white men make fun of my hair colour? According to the beauty standard checklist, I have every physical trait that is exclusive to white people who are supposedly considered the most beautiful, so why aren't men breaking my door down to date me? Because attraction is so much more complex than SJWs would like to believe it is. If thin bodies are the ideal beauty standard then why are so many girls who already thin believing that they're still not good enough? Why are the majority of anorexia patients white females? Why are white women tanning their skin and blowing up their lips, breasts and behinds is white skin and a slim body all over are the traits considered most attractive? Why are so many beautiful white girls believing that they're not pretty? Again, complexities. It doesn't matter what standards you put on people. Even people who match all of it still don't think they're good enough. The funny thing is, I thought the idea was to demolish all idea of beauty standards. But no, SJWs think beauty standards are just fine...as long as they're not white ones. Therein lies the problem. It's the standards in themselves that are a problem, not what the standards involve.

Yes, not intending to be racist doesn't make you not racist but to completely dismiss this fact and not apply any intelligence to the reasoning behind the fact is unacceptable. You know, see when something appears racist but then I see the reasoning behind it that makes me realise that it was just read wrong or bad timing or whatever, I just say ok and move on. I don't claim that this has *dramatic voice* an effect on future generations to come! Accept it wasn't racist and move on. Honestly, I've watched the video many times and each time, I actually find it less problematic. It's just pure sensationalising. A black basketball player - so what, we can't have non-white racial representation in music videos? And we can't accurately portray the high number of basketball players who are black? Traditional black hairstyles - no one owns a hairstyle, there's no mocking down of it, it's fine. A girl called Jessica Thot - this insult isn't directed at just black women, it started out as that but is used to describe any woman now, plus no one owns slang terms. A picture of Aretha Franklin - this was actually brought up by the black girl who played Rue in The Hunger Games, she said she "inexplicably cuts to a picture of Aretha Franklin," well, no, considering that she shouts "respect" when she does it and Aretha is the image that jumps into most people's heads when they hear this word. A fruit emoji twerking - is a f**king fruit. The only thing that is truly problematic is the line about "getting our nails did all Japanesy" accompanied with Katy in stereotypical Japanese dress. This was always the line in the song that people rightfully complained about before the video came out but the video got released and suddenly, that was a side issue and the topic became dominated by the supposedly poor representation of black people. Once again proving my point that black people have the second best representation and voice after white people. Asians are always at the second bottom or bottom. When it comes to race issues, it's always unfairly slanted towards just black people and that is a problem that not enough people are addressing.

My personal experiences had everything to do with this issue, which is why I brought them up. This is the common refrain every time I bring my own experience to the table. Repeatedly I am told that my problems don't mean s**t, my experiences are sidelined and ignored or considered "completely different", my voice is silenced. A white voice doesn't mean anything in racial debate anymore, even when it's relaying the exact same experiences as minorities. A white voice in racial debate is never seen as a voice of education, relation or sympathy, but purely a force for silencing and judging. It's all about unique struggle now, no one likes it when someone can relate to them anymore, no one likes it when someone points out how they're not the only one with a certain problem or their opinion could do with some outside enrichment. This entitled, self-centered generation, I swear.

[Muscletank 410]

Americans are out there. No one will ever tell me how to have my hair, what clothes to wear, what music I can listen to and what food I can eat. I'm mixed race and all of this **** is completely American centric. This is literally not an issue in Australia and Europe: areas with large multicultural populations. It does nothing but cause division. I really don't see the purpose of it.

[Muscletank 410]

On ‎6‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 11:35 PM, sipthistea said:

I think people are too sensible about everything nowadays. 

Instead of making a big deal about a popstar who wore a japanese costume or who used dreadlocks, we should be raising our voices against social injustice, terrorism, violence and intolerance. 

On the contrary. People have lost all forms of sensibilities.

[Benji 20,113]

15 minutes ago, Muscletank said:

Americans are out there. No one will ever tell me how to have my hair, what clothes to wear, what music I can listen to and what food I can eat. I'm mixed race and all of this **** is completely American centric. This is literally not an issue in Australia and Europe: areas with large multicultural populations. It does nothing but cause division. I really don't see the purpose of it.

It undermines the real issues America must eventually deal with regarding Racism. You can't fight division with more division, they need to embrace and celebrate their differences.

[Muscletank 410]

1 minute ago, Benji said:

It undermines the real issues America must eventually deal with regarding Racism. You can't fight division with more division, they need to embrace and celebrate their differences.

Agreed. I've had people be extremely racist to me in the past, but never once did I think that allowing the girl next door to backcomb her hair and have a blond afro was racist or stealing my culture. Nor did I think that would help heal social and cultural wounds. I was more concerned about the bogans and yobbos shouting **** to me in the street when they were drunk and trying to cause aggro, than I was young girls/guys trying to look like their idols.

 

People need a severe reality check. To progress attitudes in society, you need allies and people on board. You don't do that by alienating and ostracising innocent people who appreciate or are fans of black culture.

[Ziggy 11,870]

Of course it is American-centric (though it has roots in British history and colonialism as well) lol but so are so many other improper behaviors and historical trends. That doesn't mean it's a made up phenomenon, it just means you need to examine it within the context of American culture. Why does it exist? How does it function?

The best way I can describe it is a lack of appreciation and understanding for a given minority culture, but a willingness to adopt certain attributes of it anyway. The problem with it is specific to the fact that they're minority cultures. If you think of it in terms of corn rows or "boxer braids" as they're so affectionately labeled when a white person wears them, black people where them and people think they look "hood". A white person wears them and changes the name and all of the sudden it's hip and cool. Essentially, as far as I see it, it is an oppressive act by the very nature of the fact that it's someone of majority status stealing and "appropriating what isn't their's to the detriment of those they stole it from.

 

In Katy Perry's case and that stupid music video, it's not the watermelon that's the problem. The problem is that contextually the video is showing her in various efforts of coolness and one of those happens to be her with grills and braids. She doesn't see any cultural significance to what she's wearing, just that it's "cool". It's the same issue of the Oriental that has plagued those of Asian (not Indian, Bangladeshi, etc.) descent for decades. People fetishize these very specific features of a culture but won't try to understand why it exists or why it's important to that culture. It's insensitive. It isn't a war crime, but it's insensitive. It feels like mockery.

 

Truthfully, if you ask me idk why people get themselves worked up defending themselves. If you offend someone why would you go out of your way to tell them why they're wrong and you're right? It isn't about that. It's about how someone feels and it shouldn't matter if you qualify it as valid or not. If you're not on the receiving end of it, I don't see how it's your place to lay claim or dictate how someone should be feeling.

 

If it doesn't bother you then that's awesome, but just because one black person wasn't offended by Katy Perry doesn't mean you should treat every black person identically. They don't have a hive mind or something lol

[Ziggy 11,870]

9 minutes ago, Benji said:

It undermines the real issues America must eventually deal with regarding Racism. You can't fight division with more division, they need to embrace and celebrate their differences.

Which appropriation doesn't do. It makes me think about Cinco de Mayo. Everyone has a "Mexican" party and sugar skulls from Target and all of that. How is that celebrating difference when you know absolutely nothing about the culture that it comes from. If people did their research then I'd have no issue, but they don't. It seems more like people feel entitled to try on whatever they like and then discard it when it loses its cool credibility. That isn't celebrating a culture, that's shallowly adopting the aesthetics of it which shows a blatant disregard for said culture. America does need to celebrate its diversity and differences, but ignorance of action is not the way to do it.