Cultural Appropriation

[15jocart 2,305]

58 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

There's only one white rapper that the critics and public have ever truly respected and that's Eminem. Everyone else has tried and usually failed to get any sort of true acclaim or even stick around for long. If rap was truly whitewashed, there would be a lot more of them in the game.

When did I say rap, an art form created by black people, was whitewashed?

59 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I've got news for you - anyone can attack or silence someone. You don't have to be in a position of power to do it. The person who you're doing it to just needs to feel disrespected and like they're incapable of responding due to the lack of respect being shown to them and no longer welcome or comfortable in your company. That's all it takes to attack/silence someone.

Yeah, no sh*t. But the position of power (socially, in this case) is what creates oppression. That's the difference between racism, which can only be directed towards those with less power (i.e. white people to POC, men to women, straight people to queer folk) and discrimination/prejudice, which can occur between anyone.

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Why can't POC treat whites like individuals, get to know them before judging, refrain from making blanket statements and see if any challenges they make to any racial theories are valid? No one is immune to criticism.

When do they....not? You're literally missing the point and playing the victim again.  POC rights >>>> white feelings, and if you don't understand what that means, ask and I'll go point-by-point. White people don't treat POC people like individuals when they oppress them in much worse ways than an online Gaga forum (and I honestly don't know where half of the words you're putting into my mouth are coming from).

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I was the top student in my Modern Studies class at school (the only class that talked about racial issues in modern America)

That's......truly good for you.......  (also they only have...one class for that? This explains a lot.)

No offense, but I'd figure someone with this background would be more knowledgable about the history POC have faced in America and why movements such as BLM are popping up. In the United States, whiteness is seen as the default, which is a problem.

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Funny, you say I'm too focused on micro-issues when micro aggressions are seen as the utmost importance to highlight among the SJW community.

Also, I'd figure you'd know what a microaggression is, because it's not this...at all.... 

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

When you start saying certain groups are above criticism for any reason, you're going to encourage nothing but arrogance and delusion among the group and nothing but disrespect and contempt from anyone outside the group.

Nobody said that at all. Like I said above, criticize all you want: but what you're doing is painting a very broad brush about POC. Take BLM as an example: a movement made for black people by black people. Spaces like these were made because whiteness is everywhere you look. All-POC anything is look on as a novelty, even in 2017. Just a reminder: you do not, and will never, experience what POC experience. Me saying that isn't deflecting criticism, it's just that no matter how much you study, read, etc., you will always be able to go out and live your life without the various constraints of different POC.

News flash: as a white person, you don't get to say what is offensive/disrespectful to POC (just as men can't say what is disrespectful to women, etc.). What you can do, however, is listen when someone says something is problematic, realize why it is so, and go from there to not make that mistake again personally, or watch out for when people you know do. You sound resistant to that in a very "all lives matter" type of way, but trust me--you're not doing yourself any favors, especially if you're studying sociology.

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Don't try to live in an echo chamber. Don't just take people at their word without delving deeper. Don't be afraid to question.

Oh my, the irony...

Anyway, I hope that your education in this matter somehow serves you well, or at least better than it's being shown on here. Good luck 

[StrawberryBlond 14,880]

18 hours ago, 15jocart said:

When did I say rap, an art form created by black people, was whitewashed?

Yeah, no sh*t. But the position of power (socially, in this case) is what creates oppression. That's the difference between racism, which can only be directed towards those with less power (i.e. white people to POC, men to women, straight people to queer folk) and discrimination/prejudice, which can occur between anyone.

When do they....not? You're literally missing the point and playing the victim again.  POC rights >>>> white feelings, and if you don't understand what that means, ask and I'll go point-by-point. White people don't treat POC people like individuals when they oppress them in much worse ways than an online Gaga forum (and I honestly don't know where half of the words you're putting into my mouth are coming from).

That's......truly good for you.......  (also they only have...one class for that? This explains a lot.)

No offense, but I'd figure someone with this background would be more knowledgable about the history POC have faced in America and why movements such as BLM are popping up. In the United States, whiteness is seen as the default, which is a problem.

Also, I'd figure you'd know what a microaggression is, because it's not this...at all.... 

Nobody said that at all. Like I said above, criticize all you want: but what you're doing is painting a very broad brush about POC. Take BLM as an example: a movement made for black people by black people. Spaces like these were made because whiteness is everywhere you look. All-POC anything is look on as a novelty, even in 2017. Just a reminder: you do not, and will never, experience what POC experience. Me saying that isn't deflecting criticism, it's just that no matter how much you study, read, etc., you will always be able to go out and live your life without the various constraints of different POC.

News flash: as a white person, you don't get to say what is offensive/disrespectful to POC (just as men can't say what is disrespectful to women, etc.). What you can do, however, is listen when someone says something is problematic, realize why it is so, and go from there to not make that mistake again personally, or watch out for when people you know do. You sound resistant to that in a very "all lives matter" type of way, but trust me--you're not doing yourself any favors, especially if you're studying sociology.

Oh my, the irony...

Anyway, I hope that your education in this matter somehow serves you well, or at least better than it's being shown on here. Good luck 

Whitewashing is ultimately what you were insinuating with what you said. Any theory of white artists doing a black art form and having more success than a black person is always inevitably followed by claims of whitewashing, whether it's said explicitly or not. And it is thought of, subconsciously or not.

You talk about racism as if nothing has changed, as if laws haven't been introduced to stop it. It is illegal to refuse to hire someone based on their race, it's illegal to throw racist abuse at someone and broadcasting feelings of racism in media can be enough to get you suspended/sacked. That doesn't mean that every case of it gets dealt with accordingly, but the point is, it's there. Let me tell you, getting people to believe claims to sexism is a lot harder than is to make them believe racism. Go to your HR department and say that someone was sexually harassing you? You're told to sweep it under the rug (sometimes advised by other females, ironically). This is something I've actually got evidence for. But go to HR with a claim of racism? The perpretrator is usually fired in an instant. As they should, but why is one form of oppression dealt with so much more seriously than the other? And even if any black on white racism is dealt with quickly, well, the reverse would be treated even more seriously. I read a story once about a white girl who said she was racially ostracised in her school playground by black girls, they told her she was white and couldn't come round their area. She reported it and the girls got told off and suspended. Guaranteed if that were white kids being racist to black classmates, they would have been outright expelled, as such they should. Discrimination is discrimination. Prejudice is an umbrella term for any act of discrimination.

Um...a lot of POC now are being really unreasonable to white people. Not all, but some. They're making blanket statements about them being racist, saying that all white people are racist to some degree, assuming that all whites have no education about black struggle, just overall being extremely hostile and judgemental. It's gotten to the point now where I'm concerned about what any POC sees in me when I walk down the street. I don't care if it's seen as a "just desserts for years of oppression" or what. No one should be made to feel like they're being unfairly judged and have to defend themselves over untrue perceptions which will never be truly trusted. "Playing the victim" is a weak defence, we've already been over this. It's what people say when they've got no real point to make (not to mention, a serious lack of empathy). No, I do understand what you mean when you say "POC rights > white feelings" but I don't think you truly realise how upsetting that sounds. You can support the rights of an oppressed group while simultaneously respecting the feelings of dominant groups. Treat everyone as you'd like to be treated. Because if you don't, don't be surprised when they treat you badly. Certain white people don't care about POC's feelings when they oppress them. But other white people care about those feelings. Direct your anger at the known oppressors, not the entire white race.

Well, that wasn't condescending in the slightest. There was only one class for that because I'm not American. I live in Scotland. We barely have any black people here. Like other countries, we learn about our own country the most of all, so to have a class that concentrated on American issues of any kind was unusual. I don't think there are any classes in American schools that teach about life in Britain right? (would explain why so many of its citizens still think we're living in the dark ages, but I digress). How dare you make that "that explains a lot" statement implying that I'm basically ignorant because there was only one class available to me at school to teach me about issues outside my country. By the way, how many classes in schools offer teaching about social issues in the outside world? I'm pretty sure it's only one at most. Think about what you're saying for a minute?

No, actually, I do take massive offence to your statement. Because I do know about the things you've talked about. I haven't said one word against any sort of civil rights moment or given you any indication that I had no idea about black history. You've just completely assumed my character based on my belief that cultural appropriation is a bad theory.

No, I do understand what a micro-aggression is, you just haven't understood what I implied by it. A micro-aggression is a piece of discriminatory behaviour which, although seeming small and insignificant, can actually have a big impact on an oppressed person's feelings of worth and self-esteem. So, when you used the term micro-issue, it was like a throwback to that term. Micro, meaning small, would translate "micro-issue" as "small issue." You were criticising me for focusing on small issues. I pointed out that this was ironic given that micro-aggressions (small aggressions, i.e. small issues) are seen as something that should be taken with more importance. I get this kind of argument all the time when I discuss feminism. Asking why I'm focusing on the small stuff. You of all people, with talk of micro-aggressions, should be aware of how important it is to focus on the small stuff.

I'm painting POC with a very broad brush? I go out of my way to ensure that I phrase my criticisms in a way that gets across that I'm only talking about certain members of a community. It is POC who are painting white people with a very broad brush. There just doesn't seem to be any concern for how it's coming across. It's hard-wired into me use phrases like "some," "a small percentage of," "while most are good, there are some bad ones giving the group a bad name," and suchlike. There is nowhere near enough of that when talking about racist whites. I have no problem with whites being criticised so long as these respectful phrases are in place. But click on the average video online aiming to educate whites and I feel like every single criticism is aimed at me personally because they're making little to no distinction about what kind of white people they're talking about. It's all very well to say: "Why does this get to you? If you're not racist, you know this video isn't aimed at you." Well, I wouldn't feel like it was aimed at me if they made better distinctions! I'm fully on the side of POC wanting their rights and respect, but they don't have to disrespect me and other decent white people, to get it.

I have told you over and over that I do listen and take in POC's opinions. I always have. Just today, I had to reprimand my dad for speaking another one of his bizarre theories where he said that certain black people are more tribal and not fully human because certain parts of Africa have not devloped and progressed to the level of the West. I told him that what he's saying is atrocious and can't be scientifically proven and that he gets onto very dangerous territory when he starts to say that certain people are like a different species. I enjoyed watched Hidden Figures this year. I expressed disgust at that young Nazi girl who made Hitler support videos on YouTube. Many black rights anthems over the years have got me teary eyed. I have spoken against any time I've heard racist stereotyping or unreasonable statements. I've even seen a racial angle to things that others do not see. I am fully open to anyone from another race who wants to be friends with me or date me. But what do you know about all this? Nothing. Nor does anyone else on this site who has ever doubted my intentions, empathy and compassion. I am tired of being implied to be problematic when I'm one of the most accepting, tolerant people you will ever meet. Even though I grew up in an all-white neighborhood and don't remember ever being taught not to be racist, I still took an anti-racist stance. Picking on some for being different to me has never been in my DNA. Considering I've been bullied so many times in my life, I'd never do it to someone else. But instead of asking me what my stance is on certain racial issues to gauge what kind of person I am, you just took one thing I disagreed with and used it to form your entire judgement of me.

Don't use claims of irony against me when you've been the worst for it. Don't take my university degree lightly. I have expressed myself very well, thank you very much. If anyone has come off badly from this, it's you, for being took quick to judge and assuming you know everything about me.

[15jocart 2,305]

2 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

You talk about racism as if nothing has changed, as if laws haven't been introduced to stop it. It is illegal to refuse to hire someone based on their race, it's illegal to throw racist abuse at someone and broadcasting feelings of racism in media can be enough to get you suspended/sacked. That doesn't mean that every case of it gets dealt with accordingly, but the point is, it's there.

That doesn't mean racism doesn't exist. Racism is about systemic power, which is still held in the hands of white people.

2 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Direct your anger at the known oppressors, not the entire white race.

The thing is, the white race is the oppressor. That does not mean that every single white person is racist/bigoted, but it does mean that being white in America (which is what we're talking about here) gives you automatic privileges not afforded by other races. Just because you're personally taking offense to it, doesn't mean we're out to get you as an individual.

2 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I live in Scotland. We barely have any black people here.

........but please DO tell me about how POC make you unhappy

2 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

By the way, how many classes in schools offer teaching about social issues in the outside world? I'm pretty sure it's only one at most.

I mean my school has entire departments devoted to this, but I digress.

2 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

A micro-aggression is a piece of discriminatory behaviour which, although seeming small and insignificant, can actually have a big impact on an oppressed person's feelings of worth and self-esteem.

You are correct in that a microaggression is defined as such; however, small issue is not synonymous with this. A microaggression (touching a black person's hair, asking someone where they're "really from," etc. is different from a micro-issue. I understand what you're getting at here, but the terminology is off. Either way, I do get what you're saying about the whitewashing of black art (i.e. hip-hop and rock). Nobody is saying white people cannot enjoy it, participate in it, etc. What is problematic is when white people jump on the bandwagon, use it for personal gain without actually learning about the history of it, and then dispose of it when no longer needed (like Miley in 2013 or Katy now).

2 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I have no problem with whites being criticised so long as these respectful phrases are in place. But click on the average video online aiming to educate whites and I feel like every single criticism is aimed at me personally because they're making little to no distinction about what kind of white people they're talking about.

The thing is: respectability politics and the like have gotten POC nowhere in past decades, so white people ONLY start to listen if they think they are being targeted. It's been proven. A rule of thumb from activists is this: if it does not apply to you, (like I don't actually think you're a racist person, you just are stubborn), don't speak on it. You're only going to do yourself dirty if you jump in on something not directed at you. If you don't think you're the problem, live and let live. But again, if someone criticizes you for something problematic, the correct thing to do is apologize and ask what the issue is.

2 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

If anyone has come off badly from this, it's you, for being took quick to judge and assuming you know everything about me.

You're dong the exact same thing but ok. Good luck, as I said before. I think this has dragged on enough.

[StrawberryBlond 14,880]

On 02/07/2017 at 11:56 PM, 15jocart said:

That doesn't mean racism doesn't exist. Racism is about systemic power, which is still held in the hands of white people.

The thing is, the white race is the oppressor. That does not mean that every single white person is racist/bigoted, but it does mean that being white in America (which is what we're talking about here) gives you automatic privileges not afforded by other races. Just because you're personally taking offense to it, doesn't mean we're out to get you as an individual.

........but please DO tell me about how POC make you unhappy

I mean my school has entire departments devoted to this, but I digress.

You are correct in that a microaggression is defined as such; however, small issue is not synonymous with this. A microaggression (touching a black person's hair, asking someone where they're "really from," etc. is different from a micro-issue. I understand what you're getting at here, but the terminology is off. Either way, I do get what you're saying about the whitewashing of black art (i.e. hip-hop and rock). Nobody is saying white people cannot enjoy it, participate in it, etc. What is problematic is when white people jump on the bandwagon, use it for personal gain without actually learning about the history of it, and then dispose of it when no longer needed (like Miley in 2013 or Katy now).

The thing is: respectability politics and the like have gotten POC nowhere in past decades, so white people ONLY start to listen if they think they are being targeted. It's been proven. A rule of thumb from activists is this: if it does not apply to you, (like I don't actually think you're a racist person, you just are stubborn), don't speak on it. You're only going to do yourself dirty if you jump in on something not directed at you. If you don't think you're the problem, live and let live. But again, if someone criticizes you for something problematic, the correct thing to do is apologize and ask what the issue is.

You're dong the exact same thing but ok. Good luck, as I said before. I think this has dragged on enough.

I never said that racism doesn't exist. I simply pointed out that there are systems in place to deal with it when it happens. That's literally saying that something exists. And yet you accuse me of putting words into your mouth?

Now, we're really getting wild here when you're saying that the white race is the oppressor. It's no wonder that we can't get past racism when oppressed groups have this kind of thinking. Let me get this straight - you can make sweeping statements about the white race but woe betide you if you do it to any other group? Excuse me? That is not equality. I've said it time and time again that you have to treat people as you wish to be treated. You've contradicted yourself by immediately following up your statement by saying that not every white person is racist/bigoted. If it's some, not all, then you can't make sweeping statements about an entire group of people. That's what drummed into us as regards every group except white people. That is not fair and if you're all about respecting everyone, then you should think it's unfair too. But as I've witnessed throughout this discussion, you don't care if white people feel they're being treated unfairly. You flat-out said that white people's feelings don't matter. Again, you've displayed double standards when you've said that I shouldn't assume that I'm getting targeted when any white criticism is made...yet if anyone tries to criticise any kind of racial theory, they are accused of insulting all POC. The "I wasn't talking about people like you" defence only seems to work one way, I've found.

There you go again putting words in my mouth. Where have I said that POC make me unhappy? Did you not read the list of anti-racist things I had to list I had to use to defend myself (I should just have my defence ready to copy and past whenever I need it)? You seem very blind to the things I'm saying. It's like you're just seeing what you want to see and even deliberately misinterpreting things to make me look bad. POC are fine with me. But, just like any other group in this world, some are problematic. There's sh***y people in every group, as I'm sure you know well. But, apparently, you can't call out the bad ones when they're an oppressed group. Or, more specifically, from a racially oppressed group. If you want to call out a problematic woman or gay person, that's fine. But a black person? No, for then you get accused of racism. It scares me how some people can't even see the obvious special treatment angle that exists here.

I don't know how old you are but I went to school up until 2007. So, obviously, in a decade, things will have changed and my old school was actually knocked down and re-built shortly after I left and has been refreshed with whole new subjects and teachers but I don't know the extent of it, obviously. It depends what school you went to and what classes it was equipped to teach. Considering how my school was inner city, was hanging by a thread with funds and couldn't really stretch past the basics, we didn't exactly have every subject at our fingertips. But sure, continue to insult my upbringing and my environment. I bet you'd think very differently if I criticised a black person's upbringing and environment.

Are you really arguing what "micro" means now? How is it different? And my terminology is off? It's your terminology I was criticising! Personally, I don't have much of a problem with some concepts that the SJWs have but I just can't stand the terms they use for them. It's like they've been deliberately engineered to annoy us. I agree that micro aggressions are a problem...I just wouldn't use the term. But that doesn't mean I don't believe in it. And hold on a minute, are you saying that a white artist cannot experiment with different genres? When a black artist indulges in genres that aren't their own, they get praised for pushing boundaries and taking a risk. But when a white person does it, they're exploiting the genre for success and are ignorant about it? That is an insult to the entire notion of art. There should be no limits on what an artist wants to express. Even if it's just for a one-off. Art is about expressing what's in your head and heart in that moment, even if you don't stick with that concept forever. Once again, it is assumed that white people know nothing of the genre they have entered or have any desire to educate themselves. But somehow, no other race does this or if they do, are not criticised for it. Don't get me wrong, I've criticised Miley and Katy for these things before but they are the exception. Most white artists know better. Don't let a couple of bad apples sour the whole batch.

Oh, so being nice and respectable gets to nowhere now? Don't talk such nonsense, you're just excusing the arrogance and delusion I spoke of earlier. Do you realise how dangerous it is to say that some people should be allowed to be nasty and aggressive while others should just shut up and take it? Angering decent white people is having the exact opposite effect - joking or not, I have seen countless "this video has made me racist" or "I swear SJWs aim is to make us racist," or some variety of that on so many YouTube videos about any kind of overblown and under-researched racial theory and viewpoint. I don't provoke unless bitten. I'm not used to criticising POC or any other oppressed group because I've never had to do it until now. They were never giving me any bother. They were just decent people trying to get their rightful equality. But then this SJW thing started. Now white people are being told that they do not know what oppression is, that we're all inherently racist even if we think we're not, that we're uneducated about anything to do with race. And then there's nutjobs claiming stuff like how milk is racist (look it up, I'm not kidding), but thankfully they're a special case. I have never felt attacked for being white in my life, which is a part of white privilege, not going to lie. Even when I learned about slavery, I didn't feel attacked for being white. But black people making a video saying all whites should pay reparations, even if they never played a part in slavery? Now I'm offended. Because they are targeting any white person, not the ones doing wrong. Excuse me, I was listening to black people black people before it was even actively encouraged. How dare you try to say that white people only start to listen when they think they're being targeted. I'm not defending myself against these accusations, I'm defending other decent white people who haven't seen the accusation. I'm trying to stop the hatred at the root before it spreads. Anyone who makes a sweeping generalisation about a group of people will always be called out for me. Even if it's not my group because I'm empathetic. No one in real life calls anything I do racially problematic. It's only on the super-sensitive internet that some people seem to have a problem. That tells you all you need to know.

When have I assumed anything about you? I didn't assume how educated you were or what you knew and didn't know or made sweeping generalisations about you or called you stubborn or insulted your intelligence. But you have done that to me. You started off this entire debate saying that I seemed like I nice person outside this talk. Maybe you don't think the same now. But I've certainly come away with a bad taste in my mouth about you.