RE: Rainbow addition

[Bebe 17,289]

4 hours ago, Simon said:

Should there be an addition for inter* people, non binary, Asiens, roma,  muslims, Jews etc. ? 

They are all marginalized, yet no one brings that to discussion 

They are absolutely marginalised, but it's unclear how much intersectionality there is - as I've shown LGBTQPOC are among the most disenfranchised and at-risk of our community and we can see how their LGBTQ status has an effect on this. It would be relevant to see how LGBTQ+ issues affect the communities you mentioned in such a significant and different way.

As I've shown in this thread LGBTQPOC are among the most disenfranchised and at risk in our community - they being killed at a higher rate, they are at a higher risk of violence, they are at higher risk of HIV infections, they are at a higher risk of homelessness, they are at a higher risk of incarceration and they face greater barriers when it comes to access to proper healthcare. These are major LGBTQ+ issues that people of colour face.

This is also something that's largely U.S based... Starting in Philadelphia, but due to it sparking such a huge response I believe there are plans to extend to some other US states, so we have to take into consideration that this isn't some worldwide change to the flag - This is largely to do with U.S LGBTQ+ people. I think it's important to recognise that... It was originally just a Philly thing and it's not some huge world wide official change to the flag... The outrage just seems a little overblown when you consider that... Two added stripes to better represent the people of one city and everyone kinda freaks out.

Nothings stopping anyone from waving the original flag around in any part of the world.

It's also true that LGBTQPOC have been a major part of this fight since Stonewall and beyond - which is a major reason that we have the "T" at the end of LGBT despite sexuality and gender expression being slightly different areas of concern. 

I don't mind further additions to be made for others though, as I made clear in the other topic on this. A couple of the groups you mentioned are actually supposed to be represented via the two stripes added though too, just so you know + Intersex people also are included already under the extended acronym LGBTI.

[Melech 9,900]

36 minutes ago, Bebe said:

They are absolutely marginalised, but it's unclear how much intersectionality there is - as I've shown LGBTQPOC are among the most disenfranchised and at-risk of our community and we can see how their LGBTQ status has an effect on this. It would be relevant to see how LGBTQ+ issues affect the communities you mentioned in such a significant and different way.

As I've shown in this thread LGBTQPOC are among the most disenfranchised and at risk in our community - they being killed at a higher rate, they are at a higher risk of violence, they are at higher risk of HIV infections, they are at a higher risk of homelessness, they are at a higher risk of incarceration and they face greater barriers when it comes to access to proper healthcare. These are major LGBTQ+ issues that people of colour face.

This is also something that's largely U.S based... Starting in Philadelphia, but due to it sparking such a huge response I believe there are plans to extend to some other US states, so we have to take into consideration that this isn't some worldwide change to the flag - This is largely to do with U.S LGBTQ+ people. I think it's important to recognise that... It was originally just a Philly thing and it's not some huge world wide official change to the flag... The outrage just seems a little overblown when you consider that... Two added stripes to better represent the people of one city and everyone kinda freaks out.

Nothings stopping anyone from waving the original flag around in any part of the world.

It's also true that LGBTQPOC have been a major part of this fight since Stonewall and beyond - which is a major reason that we have the "T" at the end of LGBT despite sexuality and gender expression being slightly different areas of concern. 

I don't mind further additions to be made for others though, as I made clear in the other topic on this. A couple of the groups you mentioned are actually supposed to be represented via the two stripes added though too, just so you know + Intersex people also are included already under the extended acronym LGBTI.

I never denied that there are issues within the LGBT community and that there is a high rate of violence etc. But I don't think the problem there lays within the LGBT community nessacary but also to the ethnic group the individuals belong to. Just blaming it on the LGBT community is just wrong. There are more than one reason. And by just changing the LGBT flag is in my opinion just not helpful and it's always quite weird that mainly white people discuss about it right now

And the inter* argument, yeah but inter* people face violence mostly directly by birth by changing their gender to one of the binary genders we have and often face misunderstanding in the LGBT community as well. Yet you are not in favor adding a strip color for them?  

[PartySick 174,762]

6 hours ago, Bebe said:

There was fustration when 'B' was added to LGB because they were seen as part time gays and anger when 'T' was added to LGBT because it was seen that sexuality and gender expression are different. 

But how long until we have a stripe and a letter for each minority "type" or oppressed group? When do we add a stripe and letter for the physically and mentally disabled? The uneducated and illiterate? The foreigners? The lower class? Or does it just stop here? Where's the line? When does the queer community become the "everyone who isn't white, male, straight, rich, native, educated, and healthy" community? 

Sexuality and gender identity go hand in hand and that's a perfect stopping point. Our community is spread across dozens, hundreds even, of other communities, races, creeds, and backgrounds. Why does one of those groups get a special shout out?

PoC can face racial discrimination and they can also face sexual/gender discrimination if they're queer. Though those issues can overlap somewhat, I don't think it's necessary to mash the two together into one racial/queer minority group and then push that idea to the forefront of an entire community  It's just an ironic way to divide us under the guise of "inclusion".

I still think this whole thing is ridiculous just for the simple fact that race issues =/= queer issues even though some people can face both at the same time.

Like...

Red - Life
Orange - Healing
Yellow - Sunlight
Green - Nature
Blue - Peace
Purple - Spirit
Black and brown - Black people

What?  It's just so unnecessary.

[Bebe 17,289]

21 minutes ago, Simon said:

I never denied that there are issues within the LGBT community and that there is a high rate of violence etc. But I don't think the problem there lays within the LGBT community nessacary but also to the ethnic group the individuals belong to. Just blaming it on the LGBT community is just wrong. There are more than one reason. And by just changing the LGBT flag is in my opinion just not helpful and it's always quite weird that mainly white people discuss about it right now

And the inter* argument, yeah but inter* people face violence mostly directly by birth by changing their gender to one of the binary genders we have and often face misunderstanding in the LGBT community as well. Yet you are not in favor adding a strip color for them?  

Nobody is saying the problem lays within the LGBT community  Nobody is blaming anything on the LGBT community... While there are problems that I mentioned about inclusivity and discrimination within the LGBT community itself I was largely talking about how the wider world experiences LGBTQPOC and how POC have different experiences with their gender and sexuality...

I'm not sure that you are actually reading what I'm writing...

I never said I was totally against Intersex people having a color if an argument was made for them  I'm not sure how much sense it makes though... There are no stripes for lesbian people, gay people, bisexual people or trans people specifically - Intersex people are included in the LGBTI label... People of colour are not, however changing the flag makes it clear that the issues facing POC who are also gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans, intersex or that fall into any other LGBTQ+ labels are taken seriously and included in the main goals of the community  

[REALITY 80,323]

14 minutes ago, PartySick said:

But how long until we have a stripe and a letter for each minority "type" or oppressed group? When do we add a stripe and letter for the physically and mentally disabled? The uneducated and illiterate? The foreigners? The lower class? Or does it just stop here? Where's the line? When does the queer community become the "everyone who isn't white, male, straight, rich, native, educated, and healthy" community? 

Sexuality and gender identity go hand in hand and that's a perfect stopping point. Our community is spread across dozens, hundreds even, of other communities, races, creeds, and backgrounds. Why does one of those groups get a special shout out?

PoC can face racial discrimination and they can also face sexual/gender discrimination if they're queer. Though those issues can overlap somewhat, I don't think it's necessary to mash the two together into one racial/queer minority group and then push that idea to the forefront of an entire community  It's just an ironic way to divide us under the guise of "inclusion".

I still think this whole thing is ridiculous just for the simple fact that race issues =/= queer issues even though some people can face both at the same time.

Like...

Red - Life
Orange - Healing
Yellow - Sunlight
Green - Nature
Blue - Peace
Purple - Spirit
Black and brown - Black people

What?  It's just so unnecessary.

Everything you said was perfect. We can face and deal with both issues at the same time, and while they're both not mutally exclusive, the point of having our communities is to celebrate our differences and to recognize that groups like the LGBTQ+ community and the Black community are marganilized groups.

I don't think anyone's saying that there isn't a issue about the misrepresentation of minority races, but adding the black and brown stripes would be so unnecessary in my opinion. The original colors of the flag, which you've already stated, have absolutely nothing to do with race, and again, while there is not denying the fact that minority races are misrepresented, it has no place in a community where race shouldn't be an issue.

The LGBTQ+ community is a community full of people of different sexual orientations, gender identities, etc., and making it about race is so f*cking stupid.

[Bebe 17,289]

22 minutes ago, PartySick said:

But how long until we have a stripe and a letter for each minority "type" or oppressed group? When do we add a stripe and letter for the physically and mentally disabled? The uneducated and illiterate? The foreigners? The lower class? Or does it just stop here? Where's the line? When does the queer community become the "everyone who isn't white, male, straight, rich, native, educated, and healthy" community? 

Sexuality and gender identity go hand in hand and that's a perfect stopping point. Our community is spread across dozens, hundreds even, of other communities, races, creeds, and backgrounds. Why does one of those groups get a special shout out?

PoC can face racial discrimination and they can also face sexual/gender discrimination if they're queer. Though those issues can overlap somewhat, I don't think it's necessary to mash the two together into one racial/queer minority group and then push that idea to the forefront of an entire community  It's just an ironic way to divide us under the guise of "inclusion".

I still think this whole thing is ridiculous just for the simple fact that race issues =/= queer issues even though some people can face both at the same time.

Like...

Red - Life
Orange - Healing
Yellow - Sunlight
Green - Nature
Blue - Peace
Purple - Spirit
Black and brown - Black people

What?  It's just so unnecessary.

"But how long until we have a stripe and a letter for each minority "type" or oppressed group? When do we add a stripe and letter for the physically and mentally disabled? The uneducated and illiterate? The foreigners? The lower class? Or does it just stop here? Where's the line? When does the queer community become the "everyone who isn't white, male, straight, rich, native, educated, and healthy" community?"

Well like I've said, we can point to statistics that show us that LGBTQPOC brunt the majority of homicides against LGBT people, the brunt the majority of violence directed at LGBT people, face the highest rates of homelessness, face the highest risks of HIV/AIDS infections, face the highest risks of incarcerations and so on. What's clear is that LGBTQPOC are currently one of the, if not the, most persecuted of our community. It's also clear that LGBTQPOC experience their queer and/or trans status in a unique way and face unique problems.

We also need to balance that with the fact that issues relevant to LGBTQPOC have largely been ignored by the wider LGBTQ+ community. They are often seen as niche problems or unimportant problems, many POC advocates have been fighting for more visibility and more attention to the unique issues that face their communities for decades to no avail. Changing the flag is an obvious way to gain the visibility they desperately need.

While there are many intersectional issues to do with "physically and mentally disabled" LGBTQ people and so on - I haven't seen any data that suggests they are facing the same sort of discrimination at the same sort of scale.

"PoC can face racial discrimination and they can also face sexual/gender discrimination if they're queer. Though those issues can overlap somewhat, I don't think it's necessary to mash the two together into one racial/queer minority group and then push that idea to the forefront of an entire community"

I don't think anybody is suggesting that every issue that faces LGBTQPOC be pushed to the forefront  Just that their issues actually get recognised, get included in the fight and are seen as important. The LGBTQ+ community is a diverse group of people with diverse issues relating to their queer/trans status - I think if we are truly united and inclusive we need to recognise and address the problems all LGBTQ+ people face.

"I still think this whole thing is ridiculous just for the simple fact that race issues =/= queer issues even though some people can face both at the same time."

But black gay and transgender people fall through the cracks when lumped under either a gay or black umbrella. Such categorical thinking ignores the fact that black gay and transgender people are at once both gay and transgender and black. As a result they experience complex vulnerabilities that stem from the combination of racial bias and discrimination due to their sexual orientation and/ or gender identity.

If we are truly an inclusive community then I think we ought to recognise that POC have different experiences with their sexuality and gender and face unique challenges due to their status as black and gay/trans. 

The stripes just mean to indicate that the unique issues of LGBTQPOC are recognised as important and recognised as part of the communities fight - and I think that's important when these issues are not only so serious, are not only some of the most urgent and important issues facing LGBTQ+ people but are also deal with LGBTQ+ issues that continue to be swept under the rug and ignored - There are a lot of people who can't afford to have these issues ignored any longer.

Also - Black and brown actually represents not only POC but the values of inclusivity and diversity something that only seems to strengthen the original values of the flag imo.

[Fingerella 3,170]

Omg why is everyone so butthurt about a fücking flag just put the colors in and stfu there are more important things to talk about rather than a small flag there are people dying and terrorists killing innocent children all over the world and y'all are arguing on a piece of cloth like it's the cure for aids. 

[Melech 9,900]

32 minutes ago, Bebe said:

Nobody is saying the problem lays within the LGBT community  Nobody is blaming anything on the LGBT community... While there are problems that I mentioned about inclusivity and discrimination within the LGBT community itself I was largely talking about how the wider world experiences LGBTQPOC and how POC have different experiences with their gender and sexuality...

I'm not sure that you are actually reading what I'm writing...

I never said I was totally against Intersex people having a color if an argument was made for them  I'm not sure how much sense it makes though... There are no stripes for lesbian people, gay people, bisexual people or trans people specifically - Intersex people are included in the LGBTI label... People of colour are not, however changing the flag makes it clear that the issues facing POC who are also gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans, intersex or that fall into any other LGBTQ+ labels are taken seriously and included in the main goals of the community  

Now you accuse me of things without considering that maybe there are language barriers

 

Yeah there are no stripes for lesbian, gay, trans* or bi people. So why suddenly make it for races? I mean you wrote why you think that, but I simply disagree. The LGBT flag has nothing to do with races and I don't think it would make sense to discuss you with any further considering you got personal as well. 

[Melech 9,900]

7 hours ago, Uncle ARTPOP said:

I like this better than just adding the bars. I really hate to sound like "THAT" guy but two of my closest friends are TransPOC. My boyfriend is a POC. 

There is a gross undertone of racism in the Gay community. No blacks, Femmes, or Asians. I saw someone have NO TERRORISTS! 

In a world where gays for Trump exist it should make sense to anyone who hears this debate why it is Happening.

There is a problem and the previous symbol of pride doesn't hold pride for them because it's been confiscated by the men who have exiled them from being able to feel like people. In the gay community black men are fetishized or ignored.

So please, quit with the fake woke "the flag isn't about race" BS

I think no one is denying that there is racism in the community, but not much will change with changing the flag. 

And if you already bring this in my boyfriend is PoC as well (Latino) and he thinks that whole flag thing is just stupid.  It won't make the community less racist/sexist. 

[Bebe 17,289]

8 minutes ago, Simon said:

Now you accuse me of things without considering that maybe there are language barriers

 

Yeah there are no stripes for lesbian, gay, trans* or bi people. So why suddenly make it for races? I mean you wrote why you think that, but I simply disagree. The LGBT flag has nothing to do with races and I don't think it would make sense to discuss you with any further considering you got personal as well. 

I didn't accuse you of anything, I just clarified what I kept writing and said that I don't think you are properly reading what I am writing...

There are no stripes for lesbian, gay, bisexual or trans people because the flag is for the LGBT movement... The flag already represents these people. The black and brown were added to make it clear that the movement was inclusive and cares about LGBTQ+ issues of all people, not just the white LGBT community...

The black and brown were added because thousands of black queer people march in a separate pride every year because they don't feel that the main pride represents them and don't feel they focus on their unique issues. The black and brown was added because the black community feel marginalized and less a part of the whole gay community in participation, organization and administration.

It's an attempt at unity and inclusivity and an attempt to communicate that LGBTQPOC issues are regarded as important, part of the overall fight for LGBTQ+ people and to communicate that pride is a safe space for all LGBT+ people including LGBTQPOC. 

[Bebe 17,289]

Can I also point out that, this was a Philadelphia thing... A community where there has been racial tensions within the LGBT community:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/10/14/racial-slur-in-video-ignites-tensions-in-philadelphia-gay-community.html

They added the colours to their flag for their pride as a way to show they are working towards inclusivity...

It's also a city where here is a black pride parade held every year because LGBTQPOC don't feel represented, they don't feel like they belong and they don't feel like their unique issues are being addressed.. 

http://www.phillyblackpride.org/

[Liza 618]

3 hours ago, PartySick said:

Red - Life
Orange - Healing
Yellow - Sunlight
Green - Nature
Blue - Peace
Purple - Spirit
Black and brown - Black people

What?  It's just so unnecessary.

[Trepadation 5,566]

12 hours ago, Uncle ARTPOP said:

I like this better than just adding the bars. I really hate to sound like "THAT" guy but two of my closest friends are TransPOC. My boyfriend is a POC. 

There is a gross undertone of racism in the Gay community. No blacks, Femmes, or Asians. I saw someone have NO TERRORISTS! 

In a world where gays for Trump exist it should make sense to anyone who hears this debate why it is Happening.

There is a problem and the previous symbol of pride doesn't hold pride for them because it's been confiscated by the men who have exiled them from being able to feel like people. In the gay community black men are fetishized or ignored.

So please, quit with the fake woke "the flag isn't about race" BS

Yeah I was thinking we should have it in the middle instead of lines, great flag idea

[Trepadation 5,566]

10 hours ago, Simon said:

Should there be an addition for inter* people, non binary, Asiens, roma,  muslims, Jews etc. ? 

They are all marginalized, yet no one brings that to discussion 

I assume that's what the brown is for 

[Monster34 974]

This discussion has been getting more and more ignorant. Let alone all arguments regarding how rainbow flag is not about race; 

Rainbow Flag is a universal symbol, time to wake up and realize "brown" & "black" are not the universally accepted symbolizers of skin color of the "marginalized people of color".

What will Rainbow Flag mean in Japan, Greece, South Africa, Sweden, India with those colors ? NOTHING, here you have your answer in the context of the bs explanation this video brings.