Katy Presents New Look

[merlot 5,772]

20 hours ago, Mariah Carey said:

Hillbilly version maybe. I don't even care much for the Kardashians but they are much prettier than Katy.

[lordmaler 896]

6 hours ago, Bebe said:

I'm not butthurt  

I made a simple observation that a lot of people were running to this thread talking about how Katy is a Kim Kardashian wannabe or talking about how Brooke Candy should sue - like... these girls don't have a trademark on this style and they didn't make it trendy, they are just sporting black hair styles that have been popular for a very long time. It's weird to see people act like this is some unique hairstyle and that Katy is copying all these white girls... It's a popular hairstyle, black women have worn this style for a very long time - it's still a popular style. Kim/Brooke/Iggy didn't make this hair 'trendy' or popular... They didn't invent this style... You can't claim Katy is copying these people.

Your straight haired argument makes no sense - nobody is running into threads like "OMG Nicki is copying Beyonce with straight hair - Nicki should sue!" Nobody is out there acting like straight hair is some new trend because a bunch of black females have been seen sporting straight hair... Like I've said in every post here - I'm not saying black women 'own' this hairstyle, i'm not even saying white girls can't sport it - it's just bizarre seeing people act like this hair is some new trend and that Katy is ripping off the styles of all these white girls. This hair is nothing new, it's a style a whole lotta black women have worn since forever  

It's just about who pulls it in the right moment.

Usually Rihanna is the person who makes hairstyle trends. 

Bob hairstyle was always there but after Rihanna pulled it everyone started to cut their hair that way.

It's all about star power.

6 hours ago, Bebe said:

It would be bizarre to see people act like Beyonce is copying Rihanna by having straight hair, it would be bizarre to see people act like Beyonce is jacking Rihanna's style by rocking straight hair, it would be bizarre to be like "Rihanna should sue" because she rocked straight hair first, it would be bizarre to see people act like Rihanna has some kind of trademark on straight hair  

It wouldn't be so bizarre (or stupid, as you put it) for someone in that thread to be like "Errr, straight hair isn't a new thing though? It's kinda been popular for a long time... They can't trademark straight hair... It's a thing a lot of people have worn for a very long time from before these girls where even born until today".

To conclude you see posts like this because people hate Katy and want her to be sued, destroyed, flop and stuff..

[YCHofficial 5,293]

Why did she chop all her hair off just to add hair 

[Luc 4,775]

This screams Swedish pop icon to me  

[malazam 15,710]

Appealing.

[Bebe 17,094]

12 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

 

@Bebe

 

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I really think you are underestimating white people's intelligence and assuming their brains operate in a different way to black people's and in a less efficient way. Of course no two brains are the same but you seem to think that white minds and black minds are completely different entities that you can make blanket statements about.

Most of us associate something with the most recent example of it in our minds. I have not seen a single black celebrity wearing this style recently, just white celebrities, so naturally, my brain picked out the most current example from the filing cabinet. This is not to say that I am unaware of the origins of this style or erasing any examples of it from black people throughout history, I am merely associating a hairstyle a celebrity is wearing with the same hairstyles that other celebrities are wearing. Most celebrities take inspiration for their looks and art from other celebrities, not random civilians like you and I. They pick things that have proved to be popular recently among others of their celebrity status. So, I could totally believe that Katy got this idea through looking at the recent parade of white celebrities who have been wearing this style. When she cut her hair super short, people immediately said that she stole that look from Miley Cyrus and no one had a problem with that statement. Apparently, when a celebrity leaches onto any element of art or style that another celebrity is doing, they are copying that celebrity, fair and square but when what they're leaching onto has roots in black culture, they're not copying the celebrity in question, they're copying the originators of that look? Eh? Double standard.

When I see certain black hairstyles that are being made popular by black celebrities right now, I will associate with them. Bantu knots were just a hairstyle to me in the past, but ever since Rihanna started wearing them, I'd say that other celebrities wearing them now, black or white, were being inspired by her. So, how is this any different to comparing Katy's inspiration to other white celebrities who just so happen to be white, wearing braids? And you are free to make anything your trademark. Not official trademark, of course, style operates under a different kind of trademark, the kind that says: "Everyone else is free to look like me, but if you do, be prepared to be called out for where you got your inspiration from." You wouldn't be so militant to point out this stuff if it involved literally any other kind of style that is used by every culture on earth. Taylor Swift has made red lips her trademark, even though Xtina made this her trademark 6 years before her, yet I don't see anyone accuse her of stealing that off Xtina. Apparently, white women can trademark a red lipstick look with no problem, in fact, red lipstick has been associated with white women over many years...even though the first ever lip-staining started out in the middle east, followed by Greek, Egyptian, Mayan and Aboriginal cultures, basically cultures that were not white or weren't 'technically' white. Yet, I don't see any white women get accused of cultural appropriation by wearing lipstick or suggest that only women who come from the specific region of Spain where the first solid lipstick was invented should be considered the originators of the product. This is not because whites have selfishly stolen the look or stopped the originators of the culture from wearing it, lipstick has just taken over the culture of the entire world to a point where it doesn't 'belong' to anyone and there's no solid reasoning behind citing it as cultural appropriation. If we start militantly pointing out where each and every piece of style originally came from, we'll become insufferable.

Look, I'm Scottish. But if an American celebrity chooses to wear a kilt or dye their hair red, I don't care. Even if they started popularising it to the point where its Scottish heritage going back centuries isn't brought up, I still wouldn't care. In fact, considering that I have red hair myself, I would welcome any embracing and normalising of red hair, considering that it's still such a stigma to have it, even in this day and age. I love to see anyone being considered beautiful when they have red hair, whether it's natural or dyed, because then my natural appearance is closer to being accepted. Now, drawing on a parallel here, naturally, I would take issue with anyone who suggested that only dyed red hair is pretty, not the tone of natural red-haired people. But I write those people off as an ignorant isolation and have optimisim that not all people out there believe this.

Thing is, the solution to 'cultural appropriation' never makes sense. Look up the MTV decoded video about the topic and skip to the end where the question: "So can I not enjoy another culture?" comes up. The solution is that we should just ask someone from that culture if it's ok (even though this very idea was cited as not reliable enough earlier in the video) and that it's ok to indulge in the culture as long as we actually research that culture. But that's exactly what a lot of these so-called 'cultural appropriators' were already doing! And they were still told that they couldn't do it!

Finally, this all goes back to what I started with - assuming that all white people think the same way, they all have the same beliefs and motivations and draw the same conclusions. Some of these white people that you accuse of being ignorant and racist could in fact have a degree in sociology or history or simply have knowledge about cultures that you do not. I was the star pupil in my Modern Studies class at high school, studied sociology at university, have a degree with merit of Religious Studies from one of the best universities in the world and I have been a fan of and studying rap music for years, and that doesn't even touch on all the Hispanic culture I grew up on through my mother's job and love of Latin dance. Not all white people are ignorant to foreign culture and it's high time that those assumptions stop. For it to be suggested that I'm ignorant purely based on the colour of my skin is one of the most offensive things that has ever been said to me (and it only happened for the first time last year, which tells you something about how SJW culture has made race relations worse, not better). Start assuming that white people actually have intelligence, we're always being told about how we can afford the best education because we're all so rich, after all (doesn't that stereotype fall flat on its face when you really think about it?). Stop assuming that white people are idiots and once you've done that, you'll realise that the whole cultural appropriation thing is nonsense and was designed just to make white people feel like s**t. And because I said that, I'm not merely "a headstrong woman standing up for herself and the good people from her culture." I'm "a spoilt, selfish, ignorant racist white bitch with first world problems" through the eyes of an SJW.

 

 

"I really think you are underestimating white people's intelligence and assuming their brains operate in a different way to black people's and in a less efficient way."

Okay what??? I'm a white person?? I don't think white people and black people have different minds or that white people are less intelligent - this is crazy, insulting and really coming out of left field.

"Most of us associate something with the most recent example of it in our minds. I have not seen a single black celebrity wearing this style recently, just white celebrities, so naturally, my brain picked out the most current example from the filing cabinet."

That's fine  What? I haven't called anyone racist I haven't accused anyone of anything... I've simply said "Well, it's a popular hairstyle... Brooke Candy/Kim/Whoever can't trademark the style, it's not a unique style for them, you can't accuse Katy of biting Brooke's style, it's already been popular and trendy..." People can't act like these women own the look, when it's a popular look worn by women who wore it before any of these girls...

"This is not to say that I am unaware of the origins of this style or erasing any examples of it from black people throughout history, I am merely associating a hairstyle a celebrity is wearing with the same hairstyles that other celebrities are wearing. "

Okay?? Fine? But it's okay to be like "Yo, you can't accuse of her biting these people's style though... It's already a popular style and it has already been trendy since before any of those girls hopped on the trend - Katy Perry isn't bitting Brooke's style, she is just the latest to hop on the trend"

"Most celebrities take inspiration for their looks and art from other celebrities, not random civilians like you and I. They pick things that have proved to be popular recently among others of their celebrity status. So, I could totally believe that Katy got this idea through looking at the recent parade of white celebrities who have been wearing this style."

Okay...But that doesn't mean she is biting their style, these girls don't own the style, it's already been a popular style, black girls have been wearing their hair like that forever  Again, it would be silly to accuse Nicki of copying Beyonce by having straight hair... Like it's super popular to wear straight hair and has been since before any of them became famous? 

" When she cut her hair super short, people immediately said that she stole that look from Miley Cyrus and no one had a problem with that statement. Apparently, when a celebrity leaches onto any element of art or style that another celebrity is doing, they are copying that celebrity, fair and square but when what they're leaching onto has roots in black culture, they're not copying the celebrity in question, they're copying the originators of that look? Eh? Double standard."

What?  If people started pointing out that short hair was a popular look and trendy look that a whole lot of people have worn, if they pointed out that it had been popular since before Miley or Katy wore it then - that sounds fine to me? I haven't accused anyone of 'copying' black people though like... You're arguing against a point I'm not making. I haven't accused anyone of cultural appropriation I haven't accused anyone of stealing from black culture, i've repeatedly said that people can wear whatever hair they want.

My problem isn't with comparisons  I don't mind people being like "She looks like Kim" BUT like I said, I think it's interesting - and for some disheartening - that people are coming out acting like these white girls own that hair style when so many black women wear braids... When people are saying she is a Kim wannabe or that Brooke Candy should sue, you kinda step back and go 'But black woman wear braids... This isn't a new trend that these girls own... It's been trendy and popular since before Brooke or Kim...'

People are aggressively accusing Katy of copying the style of these white women, but it's not 'their' style - it's already a popular style and has been for a long time. There are women walking around who have worn braids forever, whose friends wear braids, whose family wears braids who walk down their neighbourhood and see girls in these braids. I think for those people they feel like their style, fashion and contributions to culture are not valued until a white person co-opts it. Suddenly Kim rocks the style and anyone else who rocks the style is a 'Kardashian wannabe' but in reality it's been trendy for years.

If Katy Perry wore a ponytail and people started saying Ariana Grande should sue, wouldn't you kinda be like "But... Literally every girl I know has worn a ponytail at some point... It's a popular hairstyle not some trendy style that Ariana Grande created and owns"?

I wouldn't have a problem with anyone saying "She kinda looks like Ariana Grande" but I think it would be a bit extra to be like "Ariana Grande wannabe" and "Ariana should sue her". It's a popular hairstyle, it has been for a while, it's not something Ariana created, it's not a trend she started, a lot of people wear ponytails.

It's a similar thing here... Those braids are popular and have been for a while... It makes sense to be like "But... Literally so many women wear their hair like that... It's a popular hairstyle and not some trendy style that Brooke Candy/Iggy/Kim Kardashian created and own"

"When I see certain black hairstyles that are being made popular by black celebrities right now, I will associate with them. Bantu knots were just a hairstyle to me in the past, but ever since Rihanna started wearing them, I'd say that other celebrities wearing them now, black or white, were being inspired by her. So, how is this any different to comparing Katy's inspiration to other white celebrities who just so happen to be white, wearing braids?"

 You're missing my point and arguing against claims I'm not making. Firstly though, Bantu knots have been popular and relatively trendy since before Rihanna too. I would find that there is nothing wrong with being like "Yeah this is already a popular style". I would find that there is nothing wrong with being like "Rihanna doesn't own this look, Beyonce is free to wear her hair like that, she wouldn't be biting Rihanna's style if she did, Bantu knots have been a thing for a long time"


"You wouldn't be so militant to point out this stuff if it involved literally any other kind of style that is used by every culture on earth. Taylor Swift has made red lips her trademark, even though Xtina made this her trademark 6 years before her, yet I don't see anyone accuse her of stealing that off Xtina. Apparently, white women can trademark a red lipstick look with no problem, in fact, red lipstick has been associated with white women over many years...even though the first ever lip-staining started out in the middle east, followed by Greek, Egyptian, Mayan and Aboriginal cultures, basically cultures that were not white or weren't 'technically' white."

What are you doing? What are you talking about? Taylor Swift hasn't been accused of ripping off Xtina with red lipstick, because that would be crazy - it's a popular look that Xtina doesn't own  Similarly I think it's bizarre to accuse Katy of ripping off Kim/Brooke/Iggy when her hairstyle is a popular look and it's not one that any of those women own. Nobody has 'trademarked' red lipstick as their own personal style, a lot of people wear red lipstick. Your last point I don't understand at all, I really don't think you get the point I'm trying to make.

" I don't see any white women get accused of cultural appropriation by wearing lipstick or suggest that only women who come from the specific region of Spain where the first solid lipstick was invented should be considered the originators of the product. This is not because whites have selfishly stolen the look or stopped the originators of the culture from wearing it, lipstick has just taken over the culture of the entire world to a point where it doesn't 'belong' to anyone and there's no solid reasoning behind citing it as cultural appropriation."

What are you talking about??? Why are you acting as if I have accused any of the women I've talked about of Cultural Appropriation??? Why are you talking as if I'm focusing on how braids were popular in Ancient Africa???? Why are you acting like I've been saying that white women can't wear this style when since my first post, and in the ones that follow, I've said that I don't have a problem with that???

Literally, my point is: "Boxer braids/Double dutch braids are super popular and trendy already (like today - not ancient Africa), black women have worn their hair like this for so long.... Katy is jumping on a trend that's existed way before any of these white girls started doing their hair in this way. It's been trendy, for black girls, for a long time"


"Look, I'm Scottish. But if an American celebrity chooses to wear a kilt or dye their hair red, I don't care. Even if they started popularising it to the point where its Scottish heritage going back centuries isn't brought up, I still wouldn't care. "

Cool. Lets imagine that pony tails, as of now, are something that are super popular in Scotland right now. If Katy Perry started wearing pony tails and people started bringing up photos of Ariana Grande saying Katy is copying her, would you have a heart attack if I was like "Girls have been wearing their hair in a pony tail for a super long time... It's a popular hairstyle that Ariana doesn't own. Here, look at these photos, it's super trendy currently in Scotland right now!"?


"Thing is, the solution to 'cultural appropriation' never makes sense. "

Please stop talking as if I've criticised these women for wearing braids. None of this is relevant to what I've said.


"Finally, this all goes back to what I started with - assuming that all white people think the same way, they all have the same beliefs and motivations and draw the same conclusions. "


You're crazy if you think, that I think white people are less intelligent - Don't even try it. I'm offended that you would even accuse me of such a thing. I'm white as ghost and so is my entire family. It's obviously very clear to me that white people have different beliefs and motivations considering we're both white and we disagree  

"Some of these white people that you accuse of being ignorant and racist "

Please point out where I have accused someone of being 'ignorant and racist' in this thread. I haven't so please refrain from throwing all these accusations at me. 


"I was the star pupil in my Modern Studies class at high school, studied sociology at university, have a degree with merit of Religious Studies from one of the best universities in the world and I have been a fan of and studying rap music for years, and that doesn't even touch on all the Hispanic culture I grew up on through my mother's job and love of Latin dance. Not all white people are ignorant to foreign culture"

Doesn't seem relevant to anything I'm saying, haven't accused white people of being ignorant to foreign culture.

"For it to be suggested that I'm ignorant purely based on the colour of my skin is one of the most offensive things that has ever been said to me"

Yet here you are suggesting that I'm ignorant and think white people are stupid based on... What exactly?

"Start assuming that white people actually have intelligence.... Stop assuming that white people are idiots and once you've done that, you'll realise that the whole cultural appropriation thing is nonsense and was designed just to make white people feel like s**t."

Hi, I'm white -  I don't think white people are idiots and I also don't feel like s**t, there is no reason for you to feel like s**t, there is no grand conspiracy to make white people feel like s**t for some reason. I don't know why you are going on this rant. I haven't made any generalisations about white people, I haven't called anyone racist, ignorant or stupid. Stop accusing me of such nonsense.

[lilttlemonsta 10]

She soaked herself in oil.

[StrawberryBlond 14,872]

12 hours ago, Bebe said:

Hi, I'm white -  I don't think white people are idiots and I also don't feel like s**t, there is no reason for you to feel like s**t, there is no grand conspiracy to make white people feel like s**t for some reason. I don't know why you are going on this rant. I haven't made any generalisations about white people, I haven't called anyone racist, ignorant or stupid. Stop accusing me of such nonsense.

"Okay what??? I'm a white person?? I don't think white people and black people have different minds or that white people are less intelligent - this is crazy, insulting and really coming out of left field."

Maybe I misinterpreted something you said earlier when you said something about what "we" have to put up with. I was never sure of what race you were, but I did some interpretation there. But that still doesn't mean that white people can't be unnecessarily strict on their own race. I've encountered white people who have the most laughable white guilt who make it their role to lecture whites about everything they're doing wrong and think they're the cause of all ills. Not saying that you're like this, but just pointing out that this is what I'm reminded me of when fellow white people start getting a bit too offended over something that doesn't even affect them.

"That's fine  What? I haven't called anyone racist I haven't accused anyone of anything... I've simply said "Well, it's a popular hairstyle... Brooke Candy/Kim/Whoever can't trademark the style, it's not a unique style for them, you can't accuse Katy of biting Brooke's style, it's already been popular and trendy..." People can't act like these women own the look, when it's a popular look worn by women who wore it before any of these girls..."

You may not have actually used this words and accusations explicitly but whites have encountered this enough times to know the code. The implications are clear. And you just keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Here's the thing - no one owns anything to do with style. Style is free. Take it and use it as you see fit. If you're a big name who wears a certain style and others start following suit, you've made it trendy. You don't have to be the originator of something to make it trendy. How do you think trends start and go out of fashion and back into fashion? Different people pick it up and make it trendy again. Style is a cultural thing for which we all play a part. Any "trademark" I refer to is in just a cute way, not a literal trademark that you seem to be implying.

"Okay?? Fine? But it's okay to be like "Yo, you can't accuse of her biting these people's style though... It's already a popular style and it has already been trendy since before any of those girls hopped on the trend - Katy Perry isn't bitting Brooke's style, she is just the latest to hop on the trend"

But I've just been saying that it tends to be celebrities who make things trendy for the wider public, especially when it comes to hairstyles. I've seen hairstyles that have been worn for years suddenly get touted as the hottest trend in fashion magazines. Like I said before, fashion goes in cycles and as the saying goes 'the more things change, the more they stay the same.' Any kind of style can have a 'moment' where its super trendy.

"Okay...But that doesn't mean she is biting their style, these girls don't own the style, it's already been a popular style, black girls have been wearing their hair like that forever  Again, it would be silly to accuse Nicki of copying Beyonce by having straight hair... Like it's super popular to wear straight hair and has been since before any of them became famous?"

Well, since it's not a style you see everyday in the white community and in life in general, for most of the world, it's not outside the bounds of reason to wonder if she decided to be inspired by other celebrities sporting the look. As I said, celebrities aren't inspired by normal people, they are inspired by other celebrities. And straight hair is far more popular than these types of braids, particularly because in certain Asian countries, women's hair is naturally straight anyway and there's millions of them. You can't compare braids with straight hair. One is obviously far more popular to the point where no one's copying it.

"What?  If people started pointing out that short hair was a popular look and trendy look that a whole lot of people have worn, if they pointed out that it had been popular since before Miley or Katy wore it then - that sounds fine to me? I haven't accused anyone of 'copying' black people though like... You're arguing against a point I'm not making. I haven't accused anyone of cultural appropriation I haven't accused anyone of stealing from black culture, i've repeatedly said that people can wear whatever hair they want."

No, I'm saying that people's first thought was of Miley when they saw that short hair which was understandable as she's the most recent celebrity to have this look. As celebrities tend to base their style on what other celebrities are doing right now, it was understandable that inspiration from Miley may have been present as opposed to celebrities who did it years before. And yes, you've said that people can wear whatever hair they want...but you insist on making clear that we know where the style originated from and state that we do not own it. When has any white person ever claimed to have invented a black hairstyle or claimed to literally own it? You should just be allowed to wear a hairstyle without having to state what it means and what you stand for when you wear it.

"My problem isn't with comparisons  I don't mind people being like "She looks like Kim" BUT like I said, I think it's interesting - and for some disheartening - that people are coming out acting like these white girls own that hair style when so many black women wear braids... When people are saying she is a Kim wannabe or that Brooke Candy should sue, you kinda step back and go 'But black woman wear braids... This isn't a new trend that these girls own... It's been trendy and popular since before Brooke or Kim...'

People are aggressively accusing Katy of copying the style of these white women, but it's not 'their' style - it's already a popular style and has been for a long time. There are women walking around who have worn braids forever, whose friends wear braids, whose family wears braids who walk down their neighbourhood and see girls in these braids. I think for those people they feel like their style, fashion and contributions to culture are not valued until a white person co-opts it. Suddenly Kim rocks the style and anyone else who rocks the style is a 'Kardashian wannabe' but in reality it's been trendy for years.

If Katy Perry wore a ponytail and people started saying Ariana Grande should sue, wouldn't you kinda be like "But... Literally every girl I know has worn a ponytail at some point... It's a popular hairstyle not some trendy style that Ariana Grande created and owns"?

I wouldn't have a problem with anyone saying "She kinda looks like Ariana Grande" but I think it would be a bit extra to be like "Ariana Grande wannabe" and "Ariana should sue her". It's a popular hairstyle, it has been for a while, it's not something Ariana created, it's not a trend she started, a lot of people wear ponytails.

It's a similar thing here... Those braids are popular and have been for a while... It makes sense to be like "But... Literally so many women wear their hair like that... It's a popular hairstyle and not some trendy style that Brooke Candy/Iggy/Kim Kardashian created and own""

No one is saying that these white women own these styles. Just that they're the ones are most associated with the style at the present moment. And it's becoming popular because a celebrity is doing it, just like everything else. Celebrities set the trends, the people follow them. I've brought up before why certain elements of foreign culture seem to become trendy when white people co-opt them. It's simply because, in most western countries anyway, whites outnumber minorities, sometimes by large amounts. So, if the white population likes something, it can easily become a huge trend and of course, companies will capitalise on that. It's all to do with population. It works in reverse as well. If something is mega popular in Asia, their huge populations can ensure it becomes the worldwide #1 brand, even if the rest of the world has never heard of it.

Ponytails are, like straight hair, too common to truly 'copy.' Yes, so many black hairstyle have been common too, but there's common and then there's common.

" You're missing my point and arguing against claims I'm not making. Firstly though, Bantu knots have been popular and relatively trendy since before Rihanna too. I would find that there is nothing wrong with being like "Yeah this is already a popular style". I would find that there is nothing wrong with being like "Rihanna doesn't own this look, Beyonce is free to wear her hair like that, she wouldn't be biting Rihanna's style if she did, Bantu knots have been a thing for a long time"

I'm not missing the point, I'm merely expanding on my point and how I'd look at it from other perspectives. I haven't seen any other prominent celebrity wearing this style, so I'd say Rihanna started something with it, even if she didn't invent it. I don't see why white girls can't do the same thing.

"What are you doing? What are you talking about? Taylor Swift hasn't been accused of ripping off Xtina with red lipstick, because that would be crazy - it's a popular look that Xtina doesn't own  Similarly I think it's bizarre to accuse Katy of ripping off Kim/Brooke/Iggy when her hairstyle is a popular look and it's not one that any of those women own. Nobody has 'trademarked' red lipstick as their own personal style, a lot of people wear red lipstick. Your last point I don't understand at all, I really don't think you get the point I'm trying to make."

But that's exactly my point. Lipstick isn't a problem, but hairstyle is. Why? They're all to do with appearance and enhancing physical features. Why does hair hold a borderline holy standard when it comes to who can wear it but other ways of changing the appearance do not? I treat all these things the same way. They're all there for the taking, you don't have to explain why you use them, you can make them your unofficial trademark, a distinguishing feature.

"What are you talking about??? Why are you acting as if I have accused any of the women I've talked about of Cultural Appropriation??? Why are you talking as if I'm focusing on how braids were popular in Ancient Africa???? Why are you acting like I've been saying that white women can't wear this style when since my first post, and in the ones that follow, I've said that I don't have a problem with that???

Literally, my point is: "Boxer braids/Double dutch braids are super popular and trendy already (like today - not ancient Africa), black women have worn their hair like this for so long.... Katy is jumping on a trend that's existed way before any of these white girls started doing their hair in this way. It's been trendy, for black girls, for a long time""

Because you're implying cultural appropriation even if you're not saying it. And you're alluding to hairstyles in the past as well as the present, which isn't relevant, especially as Katy has said before that she gets inspiration from things around her and what's trending. And your insistence on pointing out the origins of the style smack of the idea of "I don't mind whites doing this, but..." and then proceeding to list every reason why whites doing this is problematic and then providing a long list of rules that makes it really hard for whites to do it without looking like fools or do it at all, as the case may be. It all suggests that you have more of a problem than you claim. If you truly didn't have a problem, you wouldn't have come in this thread lecturing people about who truly 'owns' this style.

"Cool. Lets imagine that pony tails, as of now, are something that are super popular in Scotland right now. If Katy Perry started wearing pony tails and people started bringing up photos of Ariana Grande saying Katy is copying her, would you have a heart attack if I was like "Girls have been wearing their hair in a pony tail for a super long time... It's a popular hairstyle that Ariana doesn't own. Here, look at these photos, it's super trendy currently in Scotland right now!"?"

What do you mean by 'have a heart attack?' In a positive or negative way? And no, I would think your point made no sense because as I've repeated many times, celebrities rarely take inspiration from us normals. Sometimes, a style is even forced on them by their record label. They operate on a different plane to the rest of us. Celebrities can popularise looks as well. I know I didn't think about wearing my hair in a high ponytail until Ariana started rocking it so amazingly. I didn't think twice when I saw girls in the street wearing it but when a celebrity wears it so perfectly and has star power and magnetism in their image, it makes you want to wear it.

"You're crazy if you think, that I think white people are less intelligent - Don't even try it. I'm offended that you would even accuse me of such a thing. I'm white as ghost and so is my entire family. It's obviously very clear to me that white people have different beliefs and motivations considering we're both white and we disagree  

"Some of these white people that you accuse of being ignorant and racist "

Please point out where I have accused someone of being 'ignorant and racist' in this thread. I haven't so please refrain from throwing all these accusations at me.""

Well, I'm sorry that I've offended you but you have to realise the tone in which your comments were coming across. I've just had enough of whites being lectured to be mindful of everyone when non-whites aren't encouraged to do the same. It's even worse when this attitude is coming from other whites. I'm just letting you know that your words seem to have implications, at least in my mind. It may not be what you intend, but it's how it's coming across, so it's best that I let you know in case you say them somewhere else where someone gets really offended.

"Hi, I'm white -  I don't think white people are idiots and I also don't feel like s**t, there is no reason for you to feel like s**t, there is no grand conspiracy to make white people feel like s**t for some reason. I don't know why you are going on this rant. I haven't made any generalisations about white people, I haven't called anyone racist, ignorant or stupid. Stop accusing me of such nonsense."

Oh, trust me, I'm completely confident in my opinions, but I just find it sad that some other white people don't, they want to apologise for everything and think 'it's not my place to say.' There may not be a grand conspiracy to make whites feel bad but all the same, anti-white sentiment is stronger in a way that I have never known. I have started experiencing stuff last year that I've never experienced before and its caused me to turn defensive about my innocence, positions, intelligence, etc. as a white person. When I see suggestions that whites have to obey a different standard, I just lose it now. It doesn't always get me the best reception, but only by bringing it up can it hopefully be noticed and stop. And cultural appropriation arguments just really gets my goat. It might not be what you intended but it's how it's coming across.

[Bebe 17,094]

10 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

"Okay what??? I'm a white person?? I don't think white people and black people have different minds or that white people are less intelligent - this is crazy, insulting and really coming out of left field."

Maybe I misinterpreted something you said earlier when you said something about what "we" have to put up with. I was never sure of what race you were, but I did some interpretation there. But that still doesn't mean that white people can't be unnecessarily strict on their own race. I've encountered white people who have the most laughable white guilt who make it their role to lecture whites about everything they're doing wrong and think they're the cause of all ills. Not saying that you're like this, but just pointing out that this is what I'm reminded me of when fellow white people start getting a bit too offended over something that doesn't even affect them.

"That's fine  What? I haven't called anyone racist I haven't accused anyone of anything... I've simply said "Well, it's a popular hairstyle... Brooke Candy/Kim/Whoever can't trademark the style, it's not a unique style for them, you can't accuse Katy of biting Brooke's style, it's already been popular and trendy..." People can't act like these women own the look, when it's a popular look worn by women who wore it before any of these girls..."

You may not have actually used this words and accusations explicitly but whites have encountered this enough times to know the code. The implications are clear. And you just keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Here's the thing - no one owns anything to do with style. Style is free. Take it and use it as you see fit. If you're a big name who wears a certain style and others start following suit, you've made it trendy. You don't have to be the originator of something to make it trendy. How do you think trends start and go out of fashion and back into fashion? Different people pick it up and make it trendy again. Style is a cultural thing for which we all play a part. Any "trademark" I refer to is in just a cute way, not a literal trademark that you seem to be implying.

"Okay?? Fine? But it's okay to be like "Yo, you can't accuse of her biting these people's style though... It's already a popular style and it has already been trendy since before any of those girls hopped on the trend - Katy Perry isn't bitting Brooke's style, she is just the latest to hop on the trend"

But I've just been saying that it tends to be celebrities who make things trendy for the wider public, especially when it comes to hairstyles. I've seen hairstyles that have been worn for years suddenly get touted as the hottest trend in fashion magazines. Like I said before, fashion goes in cycles and as the saying goes 'the more things change, the more they stay the same.' Any kind of style can have a 'moment' where its super trendy.

"Okay...But that doesn't mean she is biting their style, these girls don't own the style, it's already been a popular style, black girls have been wearing their hair like that forever  Again, it would be silly to accuse Nicki of copying Beyonce by having straight hair... Like it's super popular to wear straight hair and has been since before any of them became famous?"

Well, since it's not a style you see everyday in the white community and in life in general, for most of the world, it's not outside the bounds of reason to wonder if she decided to be inspired by other celebrities sporting the look. As I said, celebrities aren't inspired by normal people, they are inspired by other celebrities. And straight hair is far more popular than these types of braids, particularly because in certain Asian countries, women's hair is naturally straight anyway and there's millions of them. You can't compare braids with straight hair. One is obviously far more popular to the point where no one's copying it.

"What?  If people started pointing out that short hair was a popular look and trendy look that a whole lot of people have worn, if they pointed out that it had been popular since before Miley or Katy wore it then - that sounds fine to me? I haven't accused anyone of 'copying' black people though like... You're arguing against a point I'm not making. I haven't accused anyone of cultural appropriation I haven't accused anyone of stealing from black culture, i've repeatedly said that people can wear whatever hair they want."

No, I'm saying that people's first thought was of Miley when they saw that short hair which was understandable as she's the most recent celebrity to have this look. As celebrities tend to base their style on what other celebrities are doing right now, it was understandable that inspiration from Miley may have been present as opposed to celebrities who did it years before. And yes, you've said that people can wear whatever hair they want...but you insist on making clear that we know where the style originated from and state that we do not own it. When has any white person ever claimed to have invented a black hairstyle or claimed to literally own it? You should just be allowed to wear a hairstyle without having to state what it means and what you stand for when you wear it.

"My problem isn't with comparisons  I don't mind people being like "She looks like Kim" BUT like I said, I think it's interesting - and for some disheartening - that people are coming out acting like these white girls own that hair style when so many black women wear braids... When people are saying she is a Kim wannabe or that Brooke Candy should sue, you kinda step back and go 'But black woman wear braids... This isn't a new trend that these girls own... It's been trendy and popular since before Brooke or Kim...'

People are aggressively accusing Katy of copying the style of these white women, but it's not 'their' style - it's already a popular style and has been for a long time. There are women walking around who have worn braids forever, whose friends wear braids, whose family wears braids who walk down their neighbourhood and see girls in these braids. I think for those people they feel like their style, fashion and contributions to culture are not valued until a white person co-opts it. Suddenly Kim rocks the style and anyone else who rocks the style is a 'Kardashian wannabe' but in reality it's been trendy for years.

If Katy Perry wore a ponytail and people started saying Ariana Grande should sue, wouldn't you kinda be like "But... Literally every girl I know has worn a ponytail at some point... It's a popular hairstyle not some trendy style that Ariana Grande created and owns"?

I wouldn't have a problem with anyone saying "She kinda looks like Ariana Grande" but I think it would be a bit extra to be like "Ariana Grande wannabe" and "Ariana should sue her". It's a popular hairstyle, it has been for a while, it's not something Ariana created, it's not a trend she started, a lot of people wear ponytails.

It's a similar thing here... Those braids are popular and have been for a while... It makes sense to be like "But... Literally so many women wear their hair like that... It's a popular hairstyle and not some trendy style that Brooke Candy/Iggy/Kim Kardashian created and own""

No one is saying that these white women own these styles. Just that they're the ones are most associated with the style at the present moment. And it's becoming popular because a celebrity is doing it, just like everything else. Celebrities set the trends, the people follow them. I've brought up before why certain elements of foreign culture seem to become trendy when white people co-opt them. It's simply because, in most western countries anyway, whites outnumber minorities, sometimes by large amounts. So, if the white population likes something, it can easily become a huge trend and of course, companies will capitalise on that. It's all to do with population. It works in reverse as well. If something is mega popular in Asia, their huge populations can ensure it becomes the worldwide #1 brand, even if the rest of the world has never heard of it.

Ponytails are, like straight hair, too common to truly 'copy.' Yes, so many black hairstyle have been common too, but there's common and then there's common.

" You're missing my point and arguing against claims I'm not making. Firstly though, Bantu knots have been popular and relatively trendy since before Rihanna too. I would find that there is nothing wrong with being like "Yeah this is already a popular style". I would find that there is nothing wrong with being like "Rihanna doesn't own this look, Beyonce is free to wear her hair like that, she wouldn't be biting Rihanna's style if she did, Bantu knots have been a thing for a long time"

I'm not missing the point, I'm merely expanding on my point and how I'd look at it from other perspectives. I haven't seen any other prominent celebrity wearing this style, so I'd say Rihanna started something with it, even if she didn't invent it. I don't see why white girls can't do the same thing.

"What are you doing? What are you talking about? Taylor Swift hasn't been accused of ripping off Xtina with red lipstick, because that would be crazy - it's a popular look that Xtina doesn't own  Similarly I think it's bizarre to accuse Katy of ripping off Kim/Brooke/Iggy when her hairstyle is a popular look and it's not one that any of those women own. Nobody has 'trademarked' red lipstick as their own personal style, a lot of people wear red lipstick. Your last point I don't understand at all, I really don't think you get the point I'm trying to make."

But that's exactly my point. Lipstick isn't a problem, but hairstyle is. Why? They're all to do with appearance and enhancing physical features. Why does hair hold a borderline holy standard when it comes to who can wear it but other ways of changing the appearance do not? I treat all these things the same way. They're all there for the taking, you don't have to explain why you use them, you can make them your unofficial trademark, a distinguishing feature.

"What are you talking about??? Why are you acting as if I have accused any of the women I've talked about of Cultural Appropriation??? Why are you talking as if I'm focusing on how braids were popular in Ancient Africa???? Why are you acting like I've been saying that white women can't wear this style when since my first post, and in the ones that follow, I've said that I don't have a problem with that???

Literally, my point is: "Boxer braids/Double dutch braids are super popular and trendy already (like today - not ancient Africa), black women have worn their hair like this for so long.... Katy is jumping on a trend that's existed way before any of these white girls started doing their hair in this way. It's been trendy, for black girls, for a long time""

Because you're implying cultural appropriation even if you're not saying it. And you're alluding to hairstyles in the past as well as the present, which isn't relevant, especially as Katy has said before that she gets inspiration from things around her and what's trending. And your insistence on pointing out the origins of the style smack of the idea of "I don't mind whites doing this, but..." and then proceeding to list every reason why whites doing this is problematic and then providing a long list of rules that makes it really hard for whites to do it without looking like fools or do it at all, as the case may be. It all suggests that you have more of a problem than you claim. If you truly didn't have a problem, you wouldn't have come in this thread lecturing people about who truly 'owns' this style.

"Cool. Lets imagine that pony tails, as of now, are something that are super popular in Scotland right now. If Katy Perry started wearing pony tails and people started bringing up photos of Ariana Grande saying Katy is copying her, would you have a heart attack if I was like "Girls have been wearing their hair in a pony tail for a super long time... It's a popular hairstyle that Ariana doesn't own. Here, look at these photos, it's super trendy currently in Scotland right now!"?"

What do you mean by 'have a heart attack?' In a positive or negative way? And no, I would think your point made no sense because as I've repeated many times, celebrities rarely take inspiration from us normals. Sometimes, a style is even forced on them by their record label. They operate on a different plane to the rest of us. Celebrities can popularise looks as well. I know I didn't think about wearing my hair in a high ponytail until Ariana started rocking it so amazingly. I didn't think twice when I saw girls in the street wearing it but when a celebrity wears it so perfectly and has star power and magnetism in their image, it makes you want to wear it.

"You're crazy if you think, that I think white people are less intelligent - Don't even try it. I'm offended that you would even accuse me of such a thing. I'm white as ghost and so is my entire family. It's obviously very clear to me that white people have different beliefs and motivations considering we're both white and we disagree  

"Some of these white people that you accuse of being ignorant and racist "

Please point out where I have accused someone of being 'ignorant and racist' in this thread. I haven't so please refrain from throwing all these accusations at me.""

Well, I'm sorry that I've offended you but you have to realise the tone in which your comments were coming across. I've just had enough of whites being lectured to be mindful of everyone when non-whites aren't encouraged to do the same. It's even worse when this attitude is coming from other whites. I'm just letting you know that your words seem to have implications, at least in my mind. It may not be what you intend, but it's how it's coming across, so it's best that I let you know in case you say them somewhere else where someone gets really offended.

"Hi, I'm white -  I don't think white people are idiots and I also don't feel like s**t, there is no reason for you to feel like s**t, there is no grand conspiracy to make white people feel like s**t for some reason. I don't know why you are going on this rant. I haven't made any generalisations about white people, I haven't called anyone racist, ignorant or stupid. Stop accusing me of such nonsense."

Oh, trust me, I'm completely confident in my opinions, but I just find it sad that some other white people don't, they want to apologise for everything and think 'it's not my place to say.' There may not be a grand conspiracy to make whites feel bad but all the same, anti-white sentiment is stronger in a way that I have never known. I have started experiencing stuff last year that I've never experienced before and its caused me to turn defensive about my innocence, positions, intelligence, etc. as a white person. When I see suggestions that whites have to obey a different standard, I just lose it now. It doesn't always get me the best reception, but only by bringing it up can it hopefully be noticed and stop. And cultural appropriation arguments just really gets my goat. It might not be what you intended but it's how it's coming across.

There is literally no point in talking to you if you're just going to say stuff like:

"But that still doesn't mean that white people can't be unnecessarily strict on their own race."

"I've encountered white people who have the most laughable white guilt who make it their role to lecture whites about everything they're doing wrong and think they're the cause of all ills."

"I've just had enough of whites being lectured to be mindful of everyone when non-whites aren't encouraged to do the same. It's even worse when this attitude is coming from other whites. I'm just letting you know that your words seem to have implications"

This is totally BS - what I'm talking about has nothing to do with white people, it has nothing to do with 'white guilt'. I haven't generalised white people, I haven't implied white people are evil or stupid, I haven't said or implied white people can't wear braids. It's pure craziness and it's insulting.

You've also kept up posts like:

"But that's exactly my point. Lipstick isn't a problem, but hairstyle is. Why? They're all to do with appearance and enhancing physical features. Why does hair hold a borderline holy standard when it comes to who can wear it but other ways of changing the appearance do not?"

"You may not have actually used this words [cultural appropriation] and accusations [of racism and ignorance] explicitly but whites have encountered this enough times to know the code." (BTW, this is crazy and you are again acting like... I'm not white?)

Which is just arguing against a point I'm not making - I'm not applying some sort of special standard when it comes to who can wear the hairstyle... So you making that point against me makes no sense... I'm still not sure what point you are trying to make against me.

In response to me saying I'm not accusing anyone of 'cultural appropriation' or 'stealing. In my first post in this thread I wrote:

"I don't want to get into fights with people like "But black people don't own a hair style!!!" cause that's not even what I'm saying - I just think it's interesting that Katy Perry wears a style popular in the black community and everyone starts saying she is copying other white girls and acting like those girls own that style"

In my second post I highlight:

"To be clear, everyone can rock french braids, extensions, cornrows, and candy-colored hair, but let’s not buy into the idea that this “trend” is new, or that these celebrities made it hot."


You have built this huge strawman of an argument around what I'm saying and even when I make myself clear, and it make it super clear to you what I'm talking about you just ignore it like: 

"Oh... Well maybe you didn't explicitly say that you don't think white people should wear braids, in fact you actually said they could, but it's clear that you are implying white people are evil/racist and can't wear a certain hairstyle!!"

I'm not going to spend paragraph after paragraph continuously having to defend myself from accusations that I'm saying things that I'm not saying. I'm not going to spend paragraph upon paragraph constantly reiterating what my position and argument is as you continue to ignore it and build a false strawman out of my argument.




I will respond to these points because they either engage with something I've actually said or allow me to clarify your misunderstandings of what my position is:

"No one is saying that these white women own these styles. Just that they're the ones are most associated with the style at the present moment."

Firstly, you keep ignoring my posts on this - there are users here saying Brooke Candy should sue! There are people here accusing her of 'copying' Kim Kardashian and Iggy  While I don't think users seriously think Brooke Candy has a actual trademark over the hair, it still implies some sort of ownership, it implies that this is some sort of trendy style because of these women. That's simply not true... The hairstyle is already popular and always has been  

Maybe these are celebrities that YOU and many others associate the style with, but there are a whole lot of women thinking... "I've worn this style, my friends and family have worn this style, I went to school with people who rocked this style, I walk through my neighbourhood and see people rocking this style..."

"Because you're implying cultural appropriation even if you're not saying it. And you're alluding to hairstyles in the past as well as the present, which isn't relevant"

It is relevant if you understood my point..... In order to show that a hairstyle is popular, I showed pictures of people wearing it - the style is popular in African American communities, so I naturally pointed that out  I'm sorry that the fact it's from an African American community triggers you so much - but I'm really not sure what I can do about that? 

If I pointed out that ponytails are a popular trend and have been for a long time you wouldn't be accusing me of saying these girls can't wear ponytails and you wouldn't be accusing me of crying cultural appropriation. You take my point for what it is "These girls haven't made this hair trendy, it's always been trendy. None of these girls can claim some kind of trademark or own this hairstyle" even if you disagreed with my point, you would clearly understand it.

"your insistence on pointing out the origins of the style smack of the idea of "I don't mind whites doing this, but..." and then proceeding to list every reason why whites doing this is problematic and then providing a long list of rules that makes it really hard for whites to do it without looking like fools or do it at all, as the case may be"

Firstly... I haven't even really talked about the 'origins' of the style in terms of its links to Ancient Africa or anything like that  I've literally never provided any list of how it becomes 'problematic' if white people wear that hair nor have I provided any lists that makes it hard for any white person to wear their hair in braids... I've just said "It's a popular hairstyle in the black community and has been for a long time". How that makes white people look like fools if they wear their hair in braids I don't know.

I don't know why you are so triggered by me saying something so completely non-controversial and factual but whatever.

"Ponytails are, like straight hair, too common to truly 'copy.' Yes, so many black hairstyle have been common too, but there's common and then there's common."

Yeah, and braids are common... This has been a popular style for a long time... I think really, the problem is that blacks are a minority... I mean that genuinely must be it and that's what's frustrating to people. Within the black community braids are common they are popular - but that doesn't matter. Kim Kardashian also starts wearing it and it's a trend that she started?  It's a common hairstyle within the African American community, black girls have been braiding their hair since forever - it's nothing new. Just because it isn't a common style within white communities doesn't mean Kim Kardashian or Brooke Candy can take credit for making it trendy. It seems like trendy can only mean "When something is new for white people" because this has been a popular African American hairstyle for a long time.

You literally said "Celebrities set the trends, the people follow them." but people are not following the trend of cornrows.... It's already a trendy look and was one before Kim... As I keep pointing out, this is just one of the ways black women have always styled their hair... It's not something that became trendy because Kim rocked it - it's only something that's perceived to be new and trendy by a white audience that doesn't generally style their hair in that manner  For a black audience, this is nothing unique, it's not some new trend - it's how they style their hair...

None of these white women started the trend though, that's very clear, they took a popular African American hairstyle (cornrows, plaits, double dutch braids, banana braids, boxer braids - whatever you want to call them) and rocked it themselves  

I feel like at this point I need to again reiterate that I don't have a problem, personally, with any of these girls rocking that hairstyle - I just think it's extra to refer to it as some new 'trend' or to act like these other white girls who have worn it have some sort of trademark on it (and no I'm not using that literally either lmao, I'm not pretending users actually think Brooke can sue - but I am suggesting that it implies this is some unique look that Brooke/Kim/Iggy have some sort of ownership of - which is ridiculous because it's a popular style).

"I would think your point made no sense because as I've repeated many times, celebrities rarely take inspiration from us normals."

Really? Where do you think these celebrities would have gotten the idea of a pony tail from? Of course celebrities get ideas from other celebrities and from runway fashion trends and the like, but they also still live on the planet Earth.

Ponytails have been popular forever, they don't need to see another celebrity to wear a ponytail before going "OMG THAT'S HOW I CAN WEAR MY HAIR!!"

Where do you think Kim Kardashian got the 'inspiration' behind the boxer braids from? Where do you think Brooke Candy got the inspiration from? Clearly from urban culture.... Clearly from the African American community where it has been a go-to and popular style for a long time. It didn't just pop out of nowhere.

And that's fine  but lets not pretend they started the trend and lets not act like others are biting their style when they wear the same hairstyle  It's been a popular hairstyle, it is a popular hairstyle - it isn't the genius of Kim Kardashian or Brooke Candy that started this trend, it was the millions of (living) African American girls that have worn the style way before them and continue to wear them.

It's not the first time Katy has worn popular African American hairstyles either featuring them heavily in her MV for This is How We Do and in red carpet appearances 

She rocked like 3 popular African American hairstyles in one video - I mean obviously she was inspired by African American culture  She is obviously taking inspiration from non-celebrity black women, I mean that first picture is also her doing the 'sassy black woman' thing - but I don't want to go too deeply into that - i'm just using it to point out the fact that she is clearly not being inspired by Kim Kardashian here... She is rocking popular, trendy African American hairstyles. Same for Kim K and same for Brooke Candy.

Katy isn't biting Kim's style or Brooke's style or Iggy's style - they don't own that style they didn't play a role in making African American braids 'trendy'. Katy and the rest of them can't own such a popular look.

 

If you want to continue to have a conversation fine, but drop the silly 'white guilt - white people are evil!!' and the 'white people shouldn't wear their hair in braids!!' stuff. Either stop replying or argue against what I'm saying and the points I'm making.

[StrawberryBlond 14,872]

"Which is just arguing against a point I'm not making - I'm not applying some sort of special standard when it comes to who can wear the hairstyle... So you making that point against me makes no sense... I'm still not sure what point you are trying to make against me."

The point I'm trying to make is - why is it necessary to bring up the background of every hairstyle that isn't from the wearer's race? It's like we don't know. Only an idiot would think these hairstyles originated with whites. So, we know where the hairstyle comes from, now what? What more is there to say? And also, you can have a cute little trademark when you're famous. If you want to be remembered, you have to stand out, so it's natural to feel annoyed if you see other celebrities doing a look that people associated with you. People say "That's ___'s trademark" in reference to some element of their style all the time and everyone knows what they mean - it's their USP. You don't have to have invented the style, the style doesn't need to be something that only you wear, it just has to be something that's fairly unique to you as a celebrity. The reason why I'm finding all this difficult to explain is because I've never had to explain this before. I just thought this concept was something that everyone understood.

"In response to me saying I'm not accusing anyone of 'cultural appropriation' or 'stealing. In my first post in this thread I wrote:

"I don't want to get into fights with people like "But black people don't own a hair style!!!" cause that's not even what I'm saying - I just think it's interesting that Katy Perry wears a style popular in the black community and everyone starts saying she is copying other white girls and acting like those girls own that style"

In my second post I highlight:

"To be clear, everyone can rock french braids, extensions, cornrows, and candy-colored hair, but let’s not buy into the idea that this “trend” is new, or that these celebrities made it hot.""

But that's what I'm trying to point out - nobody owns a hairstyle, not even the ones who started wearing it. Fashion is for everyone. They're not saying anyone else owns these styles literally, just that they're the personal trademark of certain celebrities or certain celebrities have brought these styles to the forefront recently. And I've already explained why they associated them with white celebrities - because big name white celebrities are the only ones that have sported the style recently (and by recently, I mean in the last year). And this style is a current trend among celebrities. We're referring to the trend among celebrities, not everyone in general.

"You have built this huge strawman of an argument around what I'm saying and even when I make myself clear, and it make it super clear to you what I'm talking about you just ignore it like: 

"Oh... Well maybe you didn't explicitly say that you don't think white people should wear braids, in fact you actually said they could, but it's clear that you are implying white people are evil/racist and can't wear a certain hairstyle!!"

I'm not going to spend paragraph after paragraph continuously having to defend myself from accusations that I'm saying things that I'm not saying. I'm not going to spend paragraph upon paragraph constantly reiterating what my position and argument is as you continue to ignore it and build a false strawman out of my argument."

It's because you keep repeating the same thing and aren't paying attention to or aren't understanding my insights, so I have to make my points clearer. And you keep insisting that this isn't a cultural appropriation argument when that is the undertone of what you're saying, even if it's subconscious.

"Firstly, you keep ignoring my posts on this - there are users here saying Brooke Candy should sue! There are people here accusing her of 'copying' Kim Kardashian and Iggy  While I don't think users seriously think Brooke Candy has a actual trademark over the hair, it still implies some sort of ownership, it implies that this is some sort of trendy style because of these women. That's simply not true... The hairstyle is already popular and always has been  

Maybe these are celebrities that YOU and many others associate the style with, but there are a whole lot of women thinking... "I've worn this style, my friends and family have worn this style, I went to school with people who rocked this style, I walk through my neighbourhood and see people rocking this style...""

But like I've said, celebrities do have a cute trademark on some things. That's why accusations of copying are so huge in regards to everything celebrities do. I doubt you'd be making this point about "this has been popular and always has been" if it had been literally any other kind of style. And saying that it's how ordinary people style their hair...again, I've already repeated several times that celebrities don't take inspiration from the normals. Celebrities make all different kinds of things trendy, even things that have been popular among civilians for years. But we don't point that out because the real world and the celebrity world operate on different rules.

"It is relevant if you understood my point..... In order to show that a hairstyle is popular, I showed pictures of people wearing it - the style is popular in African American communities, so I naturally pointed that out  I'm sorry that the fact it's from an African American community triggers you so much - but I'm really not sure what I can do about that? 

If I pointed out that ponytails are a popular trend and have been for a long time you wouldn't be accusing me of saying these girls can't wear ponytails and you wouldn't be accusing me of crying cultural appropriation. You take my point for what it is "These girls haven't made this hair trendy, it's always been trendy. None of these girls can claim some kind of trademark or own this hairstyle" even if you disagreed with my point, you would clearly understand it."

The fact it comes from a black community doesn't 'trigger' me, it's the idea that this has to even be said that annoys me. Celebrities don't walk about the streets, looking to see what everyone is wearing, they base their style on what other celebrities are wearing. And like I said before, there are certain hairstyles that are so common, that can be worn with any hair type, that you can do yourself, that there is no way of copying it.

"Firstly... I haven't even really talked about the 'origins' of the style in terms of its links to Ancient Africa or anything like that  I've literally never provided any list of how it becomes 'problematic' if white people wear that hair nor have I provided any lists that makes it hard for any white person to wear their hair in braids... I've just said "It's a popular hairstyle in the black community and has been for a long time". How that makes white people look like fools if they wear their hair in braids I don't know.

I don't know why you are so triggered by me saying something so completely non-controversial and factual but whatever."

"You're saying that it originated among blacks, so that's basically describing the origins of the style. And you've mentioned how it's problematic by saying that people could start to associate the style with whites and think they invented it (who on earth is going to do that, by the way?). And making white people feel like they have to explain their intentions, reasoning and inspirations any time they wear anything that didn't originate from their race is definitely a way that white people can struggle to wear whatever they want. By 'looking like fools,' I meant "They'll come across like an insufferable twit who has no confidence in their choices if they have to go around announcing what they meant by wearing a certain style."

"Yeah, and braids are common... This has been a popular style for a long time... I think really, the problem is that blacks are a minority... I mean that genuinely must be it and that's what's frustrating to people. Within the black community braids are common they are popular - but that doesn't matter. Kim Kardashian also starts wearing it and it's a trend that she started?  It's a common hairstyle within the African American community, black girls have been braiding their hair since forever - it's nothing new. Just because it isn't a common style within white communities doesn't mean Kim Kardashian or Brooke Candy can take credit for making it trendy. It seems like trendy can only mean "When something is new for white people" because this has been a popular African American hairstyle for a long time.

You literally said "Celebrities set the trends, the people follow them." but people are not following the trend of cornrows.... It's already a trendy look and was one before Kim... As I keep pointing out, this is just one of the ways black women have always styled their hair... It's not something that became trendy because Kim rocked it - it's only something that's perceived to be new and trendy by a white audience that doesn't generally style their hair in that manner  For a black audience, this is nothing unique, it's not some new trend - it's how they style their hair...

None of these white women started the trend though, that's very clear, they took a popular African American hairstyle (cornrows, plaits, double dutch braids, banana braids, boxer braids - whatever you want to call them) and rocked it themselves  

I feel like at this point I need to again reiterate that I don't have a problem, personally, with any of these girls rocking that hairstyle - I just think it's extra to refer to it as some new 'trend' or to act like these other white girls who have worn it have some sort of trademark on it (and no I'm not using that literally either lmao, I'm not pretending users actually think Brooke can sue - but I am suggesting that it implies this is some unique look that Brooke/Kim/Iggy have some sort of ownership of - which is ridiculous because it's a popular style)."

Not common enough, though. You can't seriously believe people wear braids just as much as ponytails. No, it's not the fact that they're a minority, it's that you're not separating the celebrity world and real world here. No one thinks blacks wearing them is a problem, this isn't the point of our conversation - the issue is with celebrities copying one another. And actually, something being popular among a racial community is actually a very common thing that doesn't just involve white people. If you introduce anything that isn't native to a group of people, they'll treat it as new. Whoever is from their community who put it forward will be treated as the one who made it trendy among them. This isn't limited to whites whatsoever.

"Where do you think Kim Kardashian got the 'inspiration' behind the boxer braids from? Where do you think Brooke Candy got the inspiration from? Clearly from urban culture.... Clearly from the African American community where it has been a go-to and popular style for a long time. It didn't just pop out of nowhere.

And that's fine  but lets not pretend they started the trend and lets not act like others are biting their style when they wear the same hairstyle  It's been a popular hairstyle, it is a popular hairstyle - it isn't the genius of Kim Kardashian or Brooke Candy that started this trend, it was the millions of (living) African American girls that have worn the style way before them and continue to wear them."

Not all celebrities come up with hairstyles by themselves. They get suggested to them by their stylists. But if they got the idea from the urban community, it was still their idea. If no other white person was doing it before them, their notion of doing this, is within their community, new. And if other people get the idea from them, then they have made it trendy. Let's put it this way...essentially, what I'm trying to say is: "This look of 'white girl wearing blonde braids' has been done by other white celebrities recently, so it's likely Katy has got her inspiration from them." If a black celebrity wore the same style, I wouldn't think they were copying from anyone as the style won't look the same on them as it does on a white person and they likely got the idea from their own community. Does that sound better to you?

"She rocked like 3 popular African American hairstyles in one video - I mean obviously she was inspired by African American culture  She is obviously taking inspiration from non-celebrity black women, I mean that first picture is also her doing the 'sassy black woman' thing - but I don't want to go too deeply into that - i'm just using it to point out the fact that she is clearly not being inspired by Kim Kardashian here... She is rocking popular, trendy African American hairstyles. Same for Kim K and same for Brooke Candy.

Katy isn't biting Kim's style or Brooke's style or Iggy's style - they don't own that style they didn't play a role in making African American braids 'trendy'. Katy and the rest of them can't own such a popular look."

Yes, I'm not denying that. I was even referring to that last picture in my original post, but back then, she had black braids, which provided a very different look. But this 'white girl with blonde braids' look, as I mentioned above, has been common among white celebrities lately, so it's likely where she got it from.

[Bebe 17,094]

12 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

 

"The point I'm trying to make is - why is it necessary to bring up the background of every hairstyle that isn't from the wearer's race?"

But you keep ignoring the fact that it just simply is a popular hairstyle in the african american community and that therefore when my argument is 'these celebrities didn't start this trend they don't own the style' you kinda have to be like 'No these celebrities didn't start this trend, because THIS community started the trend and it's already a popular look in this community and has been for a while"

"So, we know where the hairstyle comes from, now what? What more is there to say?"

 Yeah so we know that the hairstyle was already hugely popular and trendy before Brooke/Kardashian started wearing their hair like that - Now hopefully people people find it a little ridiculous to accuse Katy of 'stealing' a style that's already hugely popular...

" you can have a cute little trademark when you're famous. If you want to be remembered, you have to stand out, so it's natural to feel annoyed if you see other celebrities doing a look that people associated with you. People say "That's ___'s trademark" in reference to some element of their style all the time and everyone knows what they mean - it's their USP. You don't have to have invented the style, the style doesn't need to be something that only you wear, it just has to be something that's fairly unique to you as a celebrity. The reason why I'm finding all this difficult to explain is because I've never had to explain this before. I just thought this concept was something that everyone understood."

Everyone understands that concept, but when a look is already popular you can't trademark it  You can't be like "This girl was wearing denim jeans??? OMG I wear that all the time! Copycat..." because jeans are already widely popular. You can't be like "OMG This person was wearing a pony tail??? OMG I wear that! Copycat..."  because it's a widely popular style and people can't be like "OMG This person was wearing double plaits??? OMG I wear that! Copycat..."  because although they may not be AS popular as jeans and pony tails, braids have for decades been a popular and trendy look in a certain community... (i'll switch to *certain community* to try and avoid you weirdness when it's mentioned this community is black)

It's a popular hairstyle... There are a group of women that are very familiar with the style, have rocked the style, have had family that rock the style, that walk down the street and see women rock the style, who went to school with people that rock the style... You can't have a trademark on that  

"Celebrities don't walk about the streets, looking to see what everyone is wearing, they base their style on what other celebrities are wearing."

Celebrities live in the world with everyone else - of course some stylings come from other celebrities and runway trends, but nobody imagined double plait braids out of thin air one day  Obviously it came from black women who wear their hair like that...

" And you've mentioned how it's problematic by saying that people could start to associate the style with whites and think they invented it"

No I didn't lmao

" making white people feel like they have to explain their intentions, reasoning and inspirations any time they wear anything that didn't originate from their race is definitely a way that white people can struggle to wear whatever they want."

I'm not doing that my GOD -Why would white people have to explain their intentions, reason and inspirations when they wear braids??? I don't expect these girls to be wandering around like "I KNOW THIS IS A BLACK HAIRSTYLE!!! IT ORIGINATED WITH BLACK PEOPLE" I'm not accusing them of doing anything wrong - I'm just saying they are not the trend setters here  They haven't set any popular trends, It's popular already.



"like I said before, there are certain hairstyles that are so common, that can be worn with any hair type, that you can do yourself, that there is no way of copying it."

What? This makes no sense. Braids are so common - why does it matter that it's generally worn by people with another hair type? 


"Not common enough, though. You can't seriously believe people wear braids just as much as ponytails. No, it's not the fact that they're a minority, it's that you're not separating the celebrity world and real world here"

Not common enough? Probably because Black women are a minority because within the black community they are rather common... I'm not pretending that people wear braids as much as ponytails, it's just that ponytails where a good example of a common hairstyle I'm sure you would have worn before. Braids are very, very common still - it's very common in the black community - and they still matter. Celebrities live in the real world... Their hairstylists live in the real world...Where do you think Brooke/Kim/Iggy got the idea of this style from? Of course celebrities still wear trends that are popular in the real world.

"If you introduce anything that isn't native to a group of people, they'll treat it as new. Whoever is from their community who put it forward will be treated as the one who made it trendy among them.This isn't limited to whites whatsoever."

But it's not a new trend in the U.S... That's my point... The media might call it a new trend but that's totally forgetting that it's not actually new and that it's already been trendy... It's just making out that something can ONLY be trendy if a white person wears it   Beyonce has worn double plaits - doesn't matter. Rihanna has worn double plaits - doesn't matter. Ciara has worn plaits - doesn't matter, Zendaya has worn double plaits - doesn't matter. FKA Twigs has worn double plaits - doesn't matter. Black women in general commonly wear braids - doesn't matter.

Kim wears braids and it's a new trend!! It's suddenly popular!! Other white celebrities that try it are jacking her signature look!!

I don't know why it's so hard for you to admit that double plaits have been trendy since before these white women tried them out - but you keep going back to this "NO! Because celebrities get inspired by OTHER celebrities" stuff like... Of course they do, but they don't live on mars and it doesn't change the fact that this hairstyle never went out of style a lot of people never stopped rocking it. Kim Kardashian can't start a trend if millions of people already rock that style  

"Not all celebrities come up with hairstyles by themselves. They get suggested to them by their stylists. But if they got the idea from the urban community, it was still their idea."

What? I mean the point about not all celebrities coming up with hairstyles themselves is irrelevant and of course it would be the hairstylists idea to do that hair but they didn't create the idea of plait braids lol

"If no other white person was doing it before them, their notion of doing this, is within their community, new. And if other people get the idea from them, then they have made it trendy."

 But hold on - this means that apparently things only become trendy when white people do it. Millions of black people can wear it but a famous white person does it and BOOM! Trend alert!!

If it was already popular within the 'white community' you wouldn't be calling it a trend Kim started, because it was already popular and trendy... But the style was already popular in the black community and that doesn't matter... If you can't see the problem with that then I really don't know what to say to you....

"essentially, what I'm trying to say is: "This look of 'white girl wearing blonde braids' has been done by other white celebrities recently, so it's likely Katy has got her inspiration from them."

Maybe she did but it's totally irrelevant  those girls still didn't make braids trendy or popular.... Where do you think these 'other' white celebrities got their inspiration from? A mysterious group of other white celebrities who got inspired by an even more mysterious group of white celebrities and so on? Of course they got the style from the black community where braids never stopped being popular or trendy.

"If a black celebrity wore the same style, I wouldn't think they were copying from anyone as the style won't look the same on them as it does on a white person and they likely got the idea from their own community. Does that sound better to you?"

No it sounds crazy lmao. Why are you pretending that white people can't get inspired by black people? Why are you pretending that black people can't start trends? 

You're so desperate to deny that black women didn't start the trends that Kim/Brooke/Iggy rocked that you're like

"No... But you see - because they have a different skin colour and different hair it's actually new and they started a trend. If a black celebrity wore their hair like that then sure, I'll give it to the black girls - but there is no way in hell that these white girls got inspired by trends in the black community because when they do their hair in that style it's different"

It's just nonsensical and based on weird and bizarre arbitrary standards. Your position kinda makes more sense to me now though. So your position is basically:

"So Brooke/Kim/Iggy have started this trend with this hairstyle that all these white girls are following. If a black celebrity wore her hair like this though - I would mercifully not say they were inspired by those three women because this difference in skin colour and hair would make it different and because technically the trend was kinda (but not really!) started by black women (but that's irrelevant!) who have worn their hair like this for a very long time (But there is no reason to bring that up unless it's to make white people feel bad!).

I'm okay with saying that black celebrities are inspired by their community, but the white celebrities got inspired by other white celebrities who got inspired by... doesn't matter - white celebrities get inspired by white celebrities, they are the trendsetters.

The reason Brooke/Kim/Iggy have started this trend, and not black women, is because they are white and this is new to white people, and that's all that matters. Being trendy = introducing something 'new' and cool to white people. Now black girls have worn their hair like that for a long time and black celebrities - including big names like Beyonce and Rihanna - have worn their hair like this before BUT they have a different skin colour and different hair so that makes it different somehow... So in this instance they are not trend setters and didn't inspire anyone."

It's funny I was sitting here wondering why you were making such a big deal over how I must be 'attacking white people' and making it seem like I have some complex over race... But it's you that has a weird complex.

I pointed out something I thought was very inoffensive and factual:

"These people can't have started this trend and they can't claim this look as their own because it's already super popular within this group"

The point is clear - these people couldn't have started a trend - it was already a trend before they tried it.

You've spent this whole time like "Why did you have to mention this other group though??? Why are they relevant??? Why is it necessary to bring up the fact that this style was popular with this group??? So, we know where the hairstyle comes from, now what? What more is there to say? Just because these girls don't belong to that group doesn't mean they can't wear that hair!!! "

And I've spent my time like "What?? It's not my fault that the style is popular with this group... It's just a fact. My point is that the style is popular and trendy already and I just pointed out what group the style is popular with??"

You're defensiveness over me mentioning that it was a popular hairstyle in the black community confused me. I didn't realise you had this weird thing where you segregate white people and black people in your mind...

You say "If a black celebrity wore the same style... they likely got the idea from their own community." So you don't have a problem saying that a black celebrity who rocks this hair likely got it from the black community but you have this cognitive dissonance where you don't want to admit that white celebrities who rock this hair no doubt also got inspired from the black community... Instead you insist that they got the style from other white celebrities and when asked where those other white celebrities got the style from you say "Not all celebrities come up with hairstyles by themselves. They get suggested to them by their stylists. But if they got the idea from the urban community, it was still their idea."

Come on  You have to admit that's just bizarre and contradictory. 

"But this 'white girl with blonde braids' look, as I mentioned above, has been common among white celebrities lately, so it's likely where she got it from."

It still doesn't mean that these white girls started a trend  It's still been popular and trendy - it never wasn't... It's just for some reason doesn't seem to matter to you because it was popular with black women and not white women.... You also seem to want to stop going back once we reach the 'first white woman' and claim that they are the trend setter but get indignant when you take one more step and go "But who where they influenced by? Oh the millions of black women who wear braids?" This is what I meant when I said:

"it's only something that's perceived to be new and trendy by a white audience that doesn't generally style their hair in that manner  For a black audience, this is nothing unique, it's not some new trend"

Your response was:

"But if they got the idea from the urban community, it was still their idea. If no other white person was doing it before them, their notion of doing this, is within their community, new. And if other people get the idea from them, then they have made it trendy."

and

"If you introduce anything that isn't native to a group of people, they'll treat it as new. Whoever is from their community who put it forward will be treated as the one who made it trendy among them.This isn't limited to whites whatsoever."

But you are making an implicit assumption that 'white culture' is the overriding 'correct' culture. It basically implies that the contribution black culture makes to the wider culture don't matter. Can you see that? Think about it.

Instead of saying "Yeah, this was a trendy look already - the black community have worn it forever. This trend was created by the black community" you are saying "It became trendy when a white person also wore their hair in this style and other white people followed suit. That's when it became relevant and trendy."

You're assuming black people are not included as part of the wider culture... Like black people are some fringe irrelevant group and that white people own, control and grow their own culture with no input from black people.

Black people may have worn this style for ages, but it was Kim Kardashian who made the style trendy because she brought this 'new' style to the overriding, important culture that whites control and she influenced white people. 

Like... I'm not saying Brooke/Kim/Iggy shouldn't wear this hair, I'm just saying let's not credit them for making it trendy when they didn't  stop cutting black women out of the story as if they are an irrelevant and irritating side note.

[Katsuki Bakugo 9,788]

On 22/04/2017 at 9:00 AM, Dolce Vita said:

This look SCREAMS "2015 Basic Instagram Wannabe Kardashian Thot" but it's cute 

Her "WokePop" era didn't last very long did it 

Shorter than gaga's personal country era... 

[StrawberryBlond 14,872]

12 hours ago, Bebe said:

Let me condense all this down:

No, I don't segregate whites and blacks in my mind, it's just that it's obvious when certain inspiration came from certain communities. When we see a hairstyle that isn't naturally meant for us on the community who it's meant for, we tend to think: "Maybe this hairstyle isn't for me or won't suit me." But then you see someone of your own race with your hair type and hair colour wearing it and think: "Hmm, maybe I could look good after all. But will it be accepted?" Then you see more people like you doing it and think it can officially be ok. Generally, that's how it works. It can work across races too. If a person from a remote African village went to a majority white country and came back with their hair straightened and everyone in the village liked it and copied it, what would that mean? That the black person who came back with new hair gave them the idea and made it trendy in their group. It doesn't matter that straightening your hair is a common practice worldwide, the point is, it wasn't the done thing in this group until a fellow citizen of their kind made it ok and desirable. This is kinda what I'm saying here. I once saw a program where a white woman spent time with a tribe in a part of Africa where the women are topless. They saw her wearing a bra to support and protect her breasts and decided they wanted bras too. Naturally, this white woman did not invent bras or make them popular, but in this tribe who had never seen a bra before? In their eyes, she did. It's all about what is relevant in your community and what is tradition and what was the done thing before now.

And no, I'm pointing out that black hairstyles won't have the same impact on the white community because we are under the impression that these styles won't suit us or we'll be picked apart for cultural appropriation or because it's too expensive to get it done and maintain it. Therefore, seeing it on a fellow white person is what might inspire the them to go for it because they've got some idea of how they themselves could look. I'm saying white people made it trendy within their own race, not all races in general. I've said on this forum before about why something appears to become a trend when white people do it - because in a majority white country, they have the population monopoly over whether something becomes big or not. A piece of culture can only become so relevant and trendy when only a small percentage of the country is on board, but if the majority of the populace is on board? Instant trend. Ed Sheeran had only been noticed in Europe when he started out and had limited success overseas but the minute America, with it's almost 400million population heard about him? Worldwide superstar. When it comes to making something a trend, it's all about population, nothing else.

It's not about cutting black people out the story. It's about looking at the logistics of how a trend took off. I never denied that black people have been wearing this style for years and made it trendy...but within their own community. I'm just saying it had limited impact on those who weren't black. When a hairstyle gets labelled " a black thing," it makes it seem off-limits to anyone who isn't black, after all.

[Bebe 17,094]

3 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Let me condense all this down:

No, I don't segregate whites and blacks in my mind, it's just that it's obvious when certain inspiration came from certain communities. When we see a hairstyle that isn't naturally meant for us on the community who it's meant for, we tend to think: "Maybe this hairstyle isn't for me or won't suit me." But then you see someone of your own race with your hair type and hair colour wearing it and think: "Hmm, maybe I could look good after all. But will it be accepted?" Then you see more people like you doing it and think it can officially be ok. Generally, that's how it works. It can work across races too. If a person from a remote African village went to a majority white country and came back with their hair straightened and everyone in the village liked it and copied it, what would that mean? That the black person who came back with new hair gave them the idea and made it trendy in their group. It doesn't matter that straightening your hair is a common practice worldwide, the point is, it wasn't the done thing in this group until a fellow citizen of their kind made it ok and desirable. This is kinda what I'm saying here. I once saw a program where a white woman spent time with a tribe in a part of Africa where the women are topless. They saw her wearing a bra to support and protect her breasts and decided they wanted bras too. Naturally, this white woman did not invent bras or make them popular, but in this tribe who had never seen a bra before? In their eyes, she did. It's all about what is relevant in your community and what is tradition and what was the done thing before now.

And no, I'm pointing out that black hairstyles won't have the same impact on the white community because we are under the impression that these styles won't suit us or we'll be picked apart for cultural appropriation or because it's too expensive to get it done and maintain it. Therefore, seeing it on a fellow white person is what might inspire the them to go for it because they've got some idea of how they themselves could look. I'm saying white people made it trendy within their own race, not all races in general. I've said on this forum before about why something appears to become a trend when white people do it - because in a majority white country, they have the population monopoly over whether something becomes big or not. A piece of culture can only become so relevant and trendy when only a small percentage of the country is on board, but if the majority of the populace is on board? Instant trend. Ed Sheeran had only been noticed in Europe when he started out and had limited success overseas but the minute America, with it's almost 400million population heard about him? Worldwide superstar. When it comes to making something a trend, it's all about population, nothing else.

It's not about cutting black people out the story. It's about looking at the logistics of how a trend took off. I never denied that black people have been wearing this style for years and made it trendy...but within their own community. I'm just saying it had limited impact on those who weren't black. When a hairstyle gets labelled " a black thing," it makes it seem off-limits to anyone who isn't black, after all.

"When we see a hairstyle that isn't naturally meant for us on the community who it's meant for, we tend to think: "Maybe this hairstyle isn't for me or won't suit me." But then you see someone of your own race with your hair type and hair colour wearing it and think: "Hmm, maybe I could look good after all. But will it be accepted?" Then you see more people like you doing it and think it can officially be ok. Generally, that's how it works. "

Really?   

Anyway... You are still stuck in this mindset of this "white culture" being the dominant and overriding culture that black people can't contribute too. The U.S is a multicultural country and we live in a globalised multicultural world. Different cultures develop and ideas are transferred between them. 

"If a person from a remote African village went to a majority white country and came back with their hair straightened and everyone in the village liked it and copied it, what would that mean? That the black person who came back with new hair gave them the idea and made it trendy in their group"

hold on  You are talking about totally isolated groups and cultures here - it's not the same as in a place like the U.S that is a mix of ethnicities and cultures that can contribute to one wider culture.

In the 'remote' African village - the white people are foreign and not part of the wider culture. You talk about this one person influencing the rest of this small, isolated group. In this situation we are talking about a multicultural and connected country (and world) where people from all different backgrounds, ethnicities and cultures all contribute to the wider culture.

You can't segregate 'black culture' and 'white culture' in a way that ignores the fact that the two groups constantly intermingle, that these two groups live in the same country under the same laws and contribute to a wider culture. These are not two isolated and segregated groups of people with limited contact with each other, these are people that share the same space, marry each other, share the same language, share holidays, share laws and customs and live very similar lives.

"This is kinda what I'm saying here. I once saw a program where a white woman spent time with a tribe in a part of Africa where the women are topless. They saw her wearing a bra to support and protect her breasts and decided they wanted bras too. Naturally, this white woman did not invent bras or make them popular, but in this tribe who had never seen a bra before? In their eyes, she did. It's all about what is relevant in your community and what is tradition and what was the done thing before now."

This is again what I mean though when I say that you just happily assume that white people own the culture and that only they can contribute to it... It's white supremacy... The fact is that a lot of ethnic groups and cultures make up the U.S and contribute to the culture.

"I'm saying white people made it trendy within their own race, not all races in general. I've said on this forum before about why something appears to become a trend when white people do it - because in a majority white country"

And that race is the default race... Very clearly  It's also just not true that white people made it trendy for white people? Again do you so stubbornly refuse to take that extra step and just say "White people adopted a trend from the black community"? White people in the U.S did not start a trend, black people did and white people adopted it  

You also contradict yourself... I previously said:

"Yeah, and braids are common... This has been a popular style for a long time... I think really, the problem is that blacks are a minority... I mean that genuinely must be it and that's what's frustrating to people. Within the black community braids are common they are popular - but that doesn't matter. Kim Kardashian also starts wearing it and it's a trend that she started?  It's a common hairstyle within the African American community, black girls have been braiding their hair since forever - it's nothing new. Just because it isn't a common style within white communities doesn't mean Kim Kardashian or Brooke Candy can take credit for making it trendy. It seems like trendy can only mean "When something is new for white people" because this has been a popular African American hairstyle for a long time."

 

and in response you wrote:

"No, it's not the fact that they're a minority, it's that you're not separating the celebrity world and real world here."

and now you write:

"I've said on this forum before about why something appears to become a trend when white people do it - because in a majority white country"

"I'm saying white people made it trendy within their own race, not all races in general. I've said on this forum before about why something appears to become a trend when white people do it - because in a majority white country, they have the population monopoly over whether something becomes big or not. "

So I was right? It is because they are a minority. Because they are a minority their contributions to culture can be ignored, their contribution to trends within the culture can be dismissed  That's not the position I take.

It means what I've said throughout this conversation, which you have denied, is actually true. Black women cannot create trends  only white people can make trends... Something can only become trendy when a white person rocks it... You're literally admitting that it doesn't matter if millions of African American women wore the style first, it just doesn't matter and their contributions to the culture can be dismissed because they are a minority.

Here is the thing, there are over 38 million African Americans in the U.S. That's larger than Australia. African Americans make up 17% of the population - that's a significant percentage of the country.

Let's pretend a certain hairstyle became popular in Australia (with a population of 24 million). Something like this:

It's this weird trend where people have these bald patches in their hair and it becomes super cool in Australia for some reason. 

Now, if after a while Kim Kardashian and a few other U.S celebrities end up styling her hair like this, would it be outrageous to say "This trend started in Australia"? Or would you refuse to concede that these celebrities took inspiration from Australians, refuse to concede that Australian's started the trend and instead claim that Kim Kardashian and these U.S celebs started the trend?

"It's not about cutting black people out the story. It's about looking at the logistics of how a trend took off. I never denied that black people have been wearing this style for years and made it trendy...but within their own community."

The logistics of how the trend took of is that millions of African American women wore the style for a long time, black celebrities have been seen sporting the look for a while, Kim/Brooke/Iggy liked the style and also wore it and a couple of other noteworthy white people wore it. 

Seems to me that African American women started the trend unless you cut the "millions of African American" part out as if they are not 'logistically' relevant to the story...

" I'm just saying it had limited impact on those who weren't black."

Hmm, clearly not because the style even ended up reaching white celebrities like Brooke/Iggy/Kim Kardashian who are not black. I mean it reached a huge celebrity like Kim Kardashian and you don't think it had an impact on white people? 

[hausofkc 2,530]

She looks amazing