AlphaMonster 1,806 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 5 minutes ago, Derpplause said: Also on the same day as the referendum in Turkey, we are holding our own elections, so it's a very precocious strategy from Turkey's part to meddle in our own affairs...cuz this will definitely influence the outcome of the elections I think we are going in circles. That's why Turkish diplomats aren't allowed in the first place because ruling party is afraid of losing votes to PVV which is not a legit excuse to violate Vienna convention. 6 minutes ago, Derpplause said: Actually we did not breach the rules, you are really uninformed. First and foremost, there were diplomatic talks going on between the Netherlands and Turkey in regards to safety measures, the public meeting would have endangered public order and safety. While these talks were going on, Erdogan threatened us with sanctions,which the parliament there upon responded with withdrawing landing rights to Minister Cavusoglu in Rotterdam. At the same time another minister, Minister Kaya decided to enter the Netherlands by car from Germany. This was totally a mistake from the Turkey's part, on behalve of the parliament and mayor Aboutaleb of Rotterdam, the police from Rotterdam escorted this minister back to the german/dutch border. You just described it, similar meetings and rallies happened in the past countless times, we all know that there were no concern of security or whatsoever, such bs excuse was to cover up the fact that ruling party fears losing right wing votes to PVV if Turkey seemed to hold influence over Turks who live in Netherlands. It is funny because actions of current government failed left and right. Protests proved how much influence Turkey has over Turks of Europe which will shift votes to PVV as it was feared, this wouldn't get any decent media coverage in Netherlands if current government did not try to play titans of Europe protecting gates of Vienna from conquering Turks. Same goes for Turkey, Erdogan got chance to show how much influence he holds by being able to start riots in Central Europe which is also likely to shift right wing votes to Erdogan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaMonster 1,806 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Just now, The Fame Joanne said: Why should a democratic country help to promote dictatorship This isn't Star Wars where the world is divided into Rebels and The Empire. A diplomat of a country cannot be detained or revoked entry unless there is a legit excuse. Also technically Turkey is a democratic country, we call Erdogan a dictator because he breaches freedom of speech. Same goes for Netherlands, how democratic of them to not allow freedom of speech Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezrajones 587 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 14 minutes ago, AlphaMonster said: Gosh, stop being an idiot. Riots started because Netherlands breached international conventions on diplomacy and belittled Turkish ministers, not because of a political rally; there would be no riots if political rally was allowed as it has been million times in the past. >We won't riot as long as you do as we tell you. Gaga Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezrajones 587 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 16 minutes ago, AlphaMonster said: Lmao, you have no understanding of international rights or diplomacy. You cannot even realize that you approach to issues no different than Erdogan except for the fact that you are dutch, not turk. You just don't understand that Erdogan thinks exactly like you, do you ? Also, let me speak your language for a brief second: You get banned, you get retaliated. See the riots, could Netherlands do the same for Turkey ? No, that's how much you get to speak. Moreover, Turkey has the second biggest standing army in NATO which is also highly capable. Also Turkey is the most important US ally geo-strategically, where do you think US would launch operations to Mid East if not from Turkey ? You should open your eyes to see whom is more indispensable for NATO. LOL. Turkey is nothing to the USA. We care nothing for that awful place. Israel is our #1 mid east ally. We don't think of Turkey here. The Netherlands do not take orders from dictators and their sympathizers. Erdogan is not a Dutch citizen so he does not enjoy the same freedoms as the Dutch do. His free speech does not matter and will not matter. If he wants to speak diplomatically with the Dutch, he can do that without sanctioning them and threats. Otherwise he'll reap what he sows. Gaga Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaMonster 1,806 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, ezrajones said: >We won't riot as long as you do as we tell you. One last analogy than I will not respond to this stupidity: It is like you say that you are scared someone will beat you if you let them drink water from lake. It doesn't make sense right ? Then, they beat you because they are thirsty and you did not allow them to drink water, they were gonna do nothing if you did. That's how much "security threat" and your argument make sense. These political rallies have been held million times in the past, let's not act like they are anything novel. And again, again, again Dutch government fearing and election loss to PVV, and becoming Erdogan-like which is PVV-like to not lose elections is the whole topic here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bette Davis 12,742 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Sounds like he needs to brush up on Turkish history.. Cold as ice cream, but still as sweet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezrajones 587 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, AlphaMonster said: One last analogy than I will not respond to this stupidity: It is like you say that you are scared someone will beat you if you let them drink water from lake. It doesn't make sense right ? Then, they beat you because they are thirsty and you did not allow them to drink water, they were gonna do nothing if you did. That's how much "security threat" and your argument make sense. These political rallies have been held million times in the past, let's not act like they are anything novel. And again, again, again Dutch government fearing and election loss to PVV, and becoming Erdogan-like which is PVV-like to not lose elections is the whole topic here. You just don't like that The Netherlands told Turkey to kick rocks. Deal with it. They control their country. Why are turks not in Turkey? Why do they think they can tell other countries what to do? Tough cookies. And crocodile tears from Erdogan... We see through the propaganda. Gaga Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsterMum 2,532 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 It doesn't matter if the PVV loses or wins. We have a coalition government with 2, 3, 4 sometimes more parties if we have to to get a majority. Nobody wants to rule with the PVV and even if they win it doesn't make Wilders automatically head of state. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fame Joanne 5,985 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 19 minutes ago, AlphaMonster said: This isn't Star Wars where the world is divided into Rebels and The Empire. A diplomat of a country cannot be detained or revoked entry unless there is a legit excuse. Also technically Turkey is a democratic country, we call Erdogan a dictator because he breaches freedom of speech. Same goes for Netherlands, how democratic of them to not allow freedom of speech The excuse is, that the minister wanted to promote the undemocratic plans of Erdogan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromatislaps 34,854 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 28 minutes ago, AlphaMonster said: I think we are going in circles. That's why Turkish diplomats aren't allowed in the first place because ruling party is afraid of losing votes to PVV which is not a legit excuse to violate Vienna convention. Actually no, this won't shift the votes to the PVV, this will be in favor of the ruling party VVD. Even Wilders himself said a few days ago that if he was in the position of Prime Minister Rutte, he would have arrested and sent back anyone lobbying for a dictator on Dutch soil. So basically he would have done the same as Prime minister Rutte.... in that regard this situation would not shift the votes to PVV. Then again, Wilders is all talk, no deeds. he always avoids debate with opposition parties, and he never has solutions to the problems he presents. Again, we did not violate the Vienna convention because Turkey broke their own laws (Turkish law prohibits campaigning abroad) and they undermined our domestic affairs, which brings us to another (international) law they broke (non-intervention principle). After we denied access to the Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs, our government was misled by Turkey by sending another diplomat, Minister Kaya (which had nothing to do with foreign affairs, so was not immune to the actions of our government). The Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs would have had that immunity. 28 minutes ago, AlphaMonster said: It is funny because actions of current government failed left and right. Protests proved how much influence Turkey has over Turks of Europe which will shift votes to PVV as it was feared, this wouldn't get any decent media coverage in Netherlands if current government did not try to play titans of Europe protecting gates of Vienna from conquering Turks. Same goes for Turkey, Erdogan got chance to show how much influence he holds by being able to start riots in Central Europe which is also likely to shift right wing votes to Erdogan. For your information, the demonstrations were relatively small, approx 200-250 people in Amsterdam. The crowd next to the Turkish consulate was a lot smaller in Rotterdam yesterday. There are 400.000~500.000 Turks in the Netherlands, of which most live near the big cities, if they truly did not condone the actions of the parliament, the demonstrations would have been way bigger. I'm not sure what your news source is, but these protests are blown out of proportions. Also there was no demonstration in Rotterdam today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaMonster 1,806 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, ezrajones said: LOL. Turkey is nothing to the USA. We care nothing for that awful place. Israel is our #1 mid east ally. We don't think of Turkey here. The Netherlands do not take orders from dictators and their sympathizers. Erdogan is not a Dutch citizen so he does not enjoy the same freedoms as the Dutch do. His free speech does not matter and will not matter. If he wants to speak diplomatically with the Dutch, he can do that without sanctioning them and threats. Otherwise he'll reap what he sows. You are no one and nothing, your opinions do not matter, you do not represent interests of US in anyways. Israel is not even in NATO, and Israel cannot communicate with muslim majority countries at a cultural level. Israel is more of a US protege, not exactly an ally from which US benefits. If you doubt how important Turkey is for US, know that Turkey still holds half of Cyprus. Also Erdogan did not want to talk to Dutch citizens. What are you even talking about ? Why would Erdogan hold a political rally for Dutch citizens ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaMonster 1,806 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, The Fame Joanne said: The excuse is, that the minister wanted to promote the undemocratic plans of Erdogan There will be a democratically held Referendum. And you think it is undemocratic because Turkish intellectuals say so; on the paper, proposed Turkish constitutions do not give more powers to the president than US president holds... This is what we call media prejudice. Again, I am saying all this as a person who is against the proposed constitution but there is no point in mindless fanaticism by calling it undemocratic. Proposed constitution is simply presidential democracy instead of Parliamentary democracy. What is undemocratic is how the laws applied in any condition regardless of the constitution itself, and 3rd countries cannot diplomatically be judge of that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezrajones 587 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, Derpplause said: Actually no, this won't shift the votes to the PVV, this will be in favor of the ruling party VVD. Even Wilders himself said a few days ago that he would arrest and send back anyone lobbying for a dictator on Dutch soil. So basically he would have done the same as Prime minister Rutte.... in that regards it would not shift the votes to PVV in that sense. Again, we did not violate the Vienna convention because Turkey broke their own laws (Turkish law prohibits campaigning abroad) and they undermined our domestic affairs, which brings us to another international law they broke (non-intervention principle). After we denied access to the Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs, our government was misled by Turkey by sending another diplomat, Minister Kaya (which had nothing to do with foreign affairs, so was not immune to the actions of our government). The Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs would have had that immunity. For your information, the demonstrations were relatively small, approx 200-250 people in Amsterdam. The crowd next to the Turkish consulate was a lot smaller in Rotterdam yesterday. There are 400.000~500.000 Turks in the Netherlands, of which most live near the big cities, if they truly did not condone the actions of the parliament, the demonstrations would have been way bigger. I'm not sure what your news source is, but these protests are blown out of proportions. Also there was no demonstration in Rotterdam today. The lies exposed Erdogan desperately wants to be in the EU. It's never going to happen with all his human rights abuses. He's like a modern day Sadam. He runs his country like a mafia king. The only reason anyone tries to stay on his good side in Europe is because he threatens to unleash legions of migrants onto Europe from the mid east Gaga Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromatislaps 34,854 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, ezrajones said: The lies exposed Erdogan desperately wants to be in the EU. It's never going to happen with all his human rights abuses. He's like a modern day Sadam. He runs his country like a mafia king. The only reason anyone tries to stay on his good side in Europe is because he threatens to unleash legions of migrants onto Europe from the mid east Actually, I think Erdogan is preparing Turkey to never be a part of the EU, because with this referendum he basically changes the bicameral democracy Turkey has at this moment to a monocameral democracy, which gives any president and government in power more control (and gives way to possibly authocracy). That in turn will disqualify them for becoming an EU member. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezrajones 587 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Just now, Derpplause said: Actually, I think Erdogan is preparing Turkey to never be a part of the EU, because with this referendum he basically changes the bicameral to a monocameral democracy, which gives any president and government in power more control (and gives way to possibly authocracy). That in turn will disqualify them for becoming an EU member. Turkey has wanted to be in the EU for a while. They always get rejected because of their Saudi Arabia level human rights abuses and oppressive government. The way they go after Kurds in their country is so vile. Journalists, politicians, etc. all jailed and some killed. The nerve of them to complain (after threatening the Dutch) about political free speech is astonishing. Gaga Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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