Solange blasts Grammys after Beyonce lost AOTY

[StrawberryBlond 14,923]

19 minutes ago, Harry said:

So you can say that I'm twisting your words but the minute I say it to you I'm "assuming the worst"? When you actually were completely misquoting me and making an entire point out of that false claim? Even when I corrected you once or twice and you still insisted without bothering to check? Seems a bit dumb to me.

Well I don't think that's true. I don't think I've quoted you in a long time. I normally try and avoid these conversations between us because they go nowhere. I perfectly understand your ways of thinking and I hear them loud and clear, they just aren't revolutionary or new to me and I just generally don't like them. I think you're a bit more traditional than me.

I didn't admit the criticism was valid. I said that sexism is indeed rampant within the community of gay males - not that it isn't with straight males as well, but in a different ways. But it had nothing to do with that conversation that we were having. You decided to bring it up as a way to shut down and dismiss my argument. To me that's the same as me accusing you of homophobia if you disagreed with me on a conversation completely unrelated to sexuality. Ironically it reminds me of the kind of argument you've been making in regards to the original subject matter of this thread, the whole "race card" thing. Feels like you were pulling a certain card to me just to shut me up a bit, and yes it felt homophobic. You talk to me about double standards and operating under a different rule system, but you dismiss my issue with your homophobic comment as plainly as "of course I like gays, I'm on a Lady Gaga forum, aren't I!?", well... If I was so sexist would I be on a Lady Gaga forum? Would I be conversing with you? Would most of my close relationships be with women? Apparently that's sufficient evidence to prove oneself as non-prejudice in your eyes, so I must be in the clear now - right?

Well you know what as much as it's an unfortunate position, that's really not up to me to deal with. It's you. You say you wanted to be treated the same, then say in the very same passage that actually you don't want to be treated the same. You do want to be treated slightly better. No. That's not equality. I understand that kind of relationship with men, and I am not "yelling" at you, nor am I "mindlessly trashing" you. Sounds harsh but I feel like if you currently see women as weaker and less than men - which is totally what it sounds like - then that's on you and it's your perspective that might need a review... I don't feel that way, it's not my perspective. I understand that generally that is how society sees it, but I hardly think perpetuating that idea by sugar-coating everything specially for women is the answer. I'm actually really surprised that you said that as that doesn't seem to be very feminist at all, and now suddenly all your conservative views make sense to me.

Well yes it wasn't brought up with much tact, I can - and already have - admit that. And apologised for it. I don't expect you to be cool with it as per your reaction but there we go. I can see why you thought it was sexist but as someone that looks as sexuality and gender pretty fluidly, I don't really see the matter of virginity as a man/woman/sexism kinda deal and that's really what it comes down to for me. It was regretful that you didn't react well to that but I naturally assumed that you were happy to discuss it since I'd seen you bring it up fairly casually several times. But like I say, I can see now why it would come across that way to you but it really wasn't meant as a dig but a genuine explanation.

Oxymoron? Perhaps, but not really. Why is it? There are so many different definitions of feminism it seems today, many subsections that I disagree with - clearly we butt heads on it, for example you want women to be treated with an extra layer of respect and sensitivity whereas my belief is pretty simple and can be summed up in a word - equals.

Well we do know each other. I meant that in relation to you sharing your sob stories at every opportunity at a bid for sympathy whilst I don't. But it's not black and white, we don't know each other too well but we clearly do to an extent. Enough to have a dislike for each other.

Like I said, I'm not twisting words intentionally. Twisting words requires intent. I made an honest mistake and got a bit caught up in repetition of words, that's all. And when you become so sure of something, you can't remember it any other way, so don't feel the need to check. But you, on the other hand, are always trying to catch me out and make me look bad over the most minute things. It's exhausting and like walking on eggshells. This is a casual forum. You need to stop being so authoritarian. And using words like 'dumb.'

The last time you quoted me was in that topic about Frozen which touched on the topic of asexuality. That wasn't all that long ago. Then I quoted you in a completely friendly way in the topic of Gaga's SB performance and I threw a like your way yesterday. You may not have seen the full extent of my opinions (certainly regarding feminism, I keep a lid on a lot of it, but I could write a book on it, I just don't make topics about it). Some of them definitely are a new way of thinking, I just haven't put them here yet. But with most of my views in general, I don't always aim to be new or revolutionary, but just simply to put forward a way of thinking that seems sane in all the insanity. I may be a bit more traditional than you but I can assure you that I'm a liberal. My conservative ideologies weave their way in but I think political labels are so old fashioned, particularly as they can turn people against each other. My views come from all avenues, I mould them together to form something that makes sense to me.

I did see you say once that the criticism was valid, that's the word you used. Not the criticism applying to you, but the criticism in general. I don't know how many times I have to say that. Yes, it wasn't directly related to the conversation but it was something that I just needed to say, even if it was related or not. I couldn't think of a better time to say it. I wasn't trying to shut down and dismiss your argument, I was just explaining why your way of talking to me was making me so angry. I wasn't using the feminism card as a trump card in an "I'm right, you're wrong" kinda way, it was just an addition, a reminder to you that you may be putting forward some ways of speaking that aren't coming off well that you may not realise. That's all. Essentially, I was saying: "Can you correct your way of speaking to something more respectful and then we can continue with this argument." I dismiss your statement of homophobia because I know it's not true. Making a criticism of an oppressed group is not necessarily prejudice. I make criticism of feminism all the time because I believe that in order to move our cause forward, we need to self-reflect and realise we aren't perfect, that there's some issues that need straightening out. But as I've so often found, many oppressed groups don't want to admit that there's in-house problems or don't want to face up to any of these problems within themselves. If we claim that every single criticism is prejudice, we're never going to get anywhere. And no, I don't think you're sexist. For all the reasons you just listed. But that doesn't mean that you don't embody elements of subtle sexism that you don't realise. Just like how you think I embody elements of subtle racism that I don't realise (this isn't true and I'd happily confirm at length of why it isn't but we don't have the time).

No, I do not see women as weaker or less than men. I actually use this as a reason for why I think it's ok to be a feminist and criticise other women - I say that I believe women are strong enough to handle it. But the criticism has got to be done respectfully. No shouting, no swearing, no name-calling, no insulting her intelligence, no unnecessary nastiness. And like I said, I apply the same theory to men. I don't think anyone should have to put up with being disrespected in a debate unless they say something unquestionably evil. You should notice that I never shout, swear or call you names. It's an innate part of my being to respect everyone, even when you're not keen on them. What I find awful is when you tell someone that they're making you uncomfortable with how they're speaking to you and they still keep going regardless. I don't think asking a man to stop treating a woman in a way that's making her uncomfortable is akin to offering women special treatment. I'd advocate the same thing for men. If you are a feminist, you should listen to a woman telling you that your way of speaking to her is making her uncomfortable and amend it. What kind of feminist are you if you don't listen to women's point of view? I have no problem with you arguing with me but the way you go about talking to me really puts me on edge.

Considering that the women who you said it to responded by saying that you shouldn't speak like that about a woman and you responded with a 'lol' didn't exactly help your case. Even when another woman said that you shouldn't be saying these things about me, you still wouldn't listen. Maybe your view on virginity isn't tinged with sexism but written as it was, you have to realise how it came across. Suggesting that a virgin isn't worth listening to and that they are nothing but jealous of those who have what they haven't got isn't something that can leave much room for interpretation. I don't know how you wrote that thinking it was ok considering that you once said that you'd support a woman making the decision to become a nun. I'm ok with discussing virginity but not in ways that paints it as a pathetic, negative thing, seeing how I feel that way enough as it is.

It's an oxymoron because if you respect the views of a community, that must naturally mean that you like the people and therefore, you strive acceptance and respect from that community. If you actively don't look to engage with the community, why would you like their ideals in the first place? That's like somebody saying that they like black culture but don't want to have anything to do with black people. That view rightfully doesn't fly. Feminism doesn't work if your 'feminist' views aren't female approved. Yes, there are many subsections of feminism, some I agree with, some not so, but this is ok. Feminists have made it clear that you are allowed to choose your own brand of it, as long as you embody basic core values all the same. As I said previously, I don't think women should be treated with an extra layer of respect and sensitivity because I think everyone should have a basic layer of respect. Equal respect.

I don't do 'sob stories,' I put forward 'stories' in order to make a point and to make people understand me better and my motivations. You need examples of a person's life to truly get to know a person. And I don't do it at every opportunity. I don't like doing it, actually, but it's sometimes necessary to drive a point home because some people won't understand it any other way. And point is, I think our dislike of each other is stupid and baseless. It started out of pointlessness and is still going strong and from what? An disagreement over Justin Bieber's chance of a comeback. Priorities.