Whispering 18,865 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 18 minutes ago, Bebe said: I think a lot of Democrats, especially establishment democrats, are center right. I'm aware of the distinction between Republicans and Democrats - I'm also aware, as I've stated, that Hillary isn't conservative enough to be a Republican. With all of that said though - at this point in time - she is pretty conservative. You have said OnTheIssues have rated her as a hardcore liberal - I would disagree. On social issues like abortion of course she is 'liberal' - but on foreign policy she is sways pretty conservative (again I've defended her from being a neocon - but she is still pretty conservative like Obama and even Bill Clinton). The problem with OnTheIssue is that it rates politicians like Hillary based on where they place within the party - Clinton has consistently shifted left with the party however has a poor record of pushing the Democrats left. Clinton moved left on Gay Marriage as soon as 51 percent of Americans and around two-thirds of Democrats were in favor of gay marriage. When 57 percent of Americans favored a pathway to citizenship and 71 percent of Democrats favored a pathway to citizenship for illegal immigrants Hillary came out and supported a pathway to citizenship. On criminal justice reform Clinton called for rolling back mandatory minimum sentencing laws when 54 percent of Americans and 55 percent of Democrats agreed. Even after her primary with Bernie. Clinton started to voice her support for the nationwide “fight for $15,” even though she supported raising the federal minimum wage to $12 before. She flipped on the Trans-Pacific Partnership. On Marijuana legalization she still lags behind but is more supportive of the Democratic platform that calls for a reasoned pathway to future legalization of marijuana. Clinton has backed the death penalty in certain situations but now the platform of the democratic party is that it should be abolished. Based on the Democratic platform established after she won the nomination, Clinton is further to the right then what the Democratic platform advocates for. Clinton isn't one that generally fights for progress within the Democratic party - she has always just moved with it. As of now - according to the platform of the democratic party - she is right of those positions. "Establishment Democrats" are Democrats. You must not be, because you don't seem to understand that Democrats in the US are markedly different on a multitude of key issues from their Republican counterparts. Hillary's policies were to fortify the social safety net, strengthen regulation of industry, and bolster public services. To the extent these programs require new spending, the money would largely come from new taxes on the wealthy. All of that is liberal. Right...because she is a Democrat. Therefore, they are going to judge her within her party. That makes perfect sense. Clinton moved on gay marriage when Obama did. Before that, you couldn't get elected outside of a handful of super liberal states...and definitely not as President, if you stated otherwise. Same with pathway to citizenship. Welcome to politics 101! Everyone isn't running for office in the small, lily white, ultra liberal state of Vermont. Just like Bernie gave in to the NRA, other politicians in other areas move with the general consensus of their state or the Democratic Party. That's not flipping. That was adopting a more progressive policy agenda. She was working with Bernie to include his more progressive policies in the Democratic platform. That's working WITH others, not flip-flopping. Politicians should represent their constituents, and her constituency is the Democratic Party. Politicians are representatives for the people...they should reflect the people's wishes and evolve along with them. No, Hillary ran on the most progressive platform that we have seen from any Democratic Nominee. No way was that platform right of what the Democratic Party represents in the majority of the country. You are way, way off on that statement. That's absolutely incorrect. Maybe you think the Bernie supporters are the Democratic Party. They are not. There are Blue collar workers, the middle class, college graduates who have been in jobs for a decade, Minorities (which often are more conservative), etc. The Democratic Party right now is starting a refocus platform on blue collar workers, not on the super liberal college students...who failed to get themselves to the voting booth. If they want to become a force in the party, they have to show up to vote...every ****ing election! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bebe 17,289 Posted February 9, 2017 Author Share Posted February 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Whispering said: "Establishment Democrats" are Democrats. You must not be, because you don't seem to understand that Democrats in the US are markedly different on a multitude of key issues from their Republican counterparts. Hillary's policies were to fortify the social safety net, strengthen regulation of industry, and bolster public services. To the extent these programs require new spending, the money would largely come from new taxes on the wealthy. All of that is liberal. Right...because she is a Democrat. Therefore, they are going to judge her within her party. That makes perfect sense. Clinton moved on gay marriage when Obama did. Before that, you couldn't get elected outside of a handful of super liberal states...and definitely not as President, if you stated otherwise. Same with pathway to citizenship. Welcome to politics 101! Everyone isn't running for office in the small, lily white, ultra liberal state of Vermont. Just like Bernie gave in to the NRA, other politicians in other areas move with the general consensus of their state or the Democratic Party. That's not flipping. That was adopting a more progressive policy agenda. She was working with Bernie to include his more progressive policies in the Democratic platform. That's working WITH others, not flip-flopping. Politicians should represent their constituents, and her constituency is the Democratic Party. Politicians are representatives for the people...they should reflect the people's wishes and evolve along with them. No, Hillary ran on the most progressive platform that we have seen from any Democratic Nominee. No way was that platform right of what the Democratic Party represents in the majority of the country. You are way, way off on that statement. That's absolutely incorrect. Maybe you think the Bernie supporters are the Democratic Party. They are not. There are Blue collar workers, the middle class, college graduates who have been in jobs for a decade, Minorities (which often are more conservative), etc. The Democratic Party right now is starting a refocus platform on blue collar workers, not on the super liberal college students...who failed to get themselves to the voting booth. If they want to become a force in the party, they have to show up to vote...every ****ing election! "Establishment Democrats" are Democrats. " Well aware of that "You must not be, because you don't seem to understand that Democrats in the US are markedly different on a multitude of key issues from their Republican counterparts. " No, I perfectly understand - hence why I'm not calling Hillary a Republican and haven't throughout the thread.... I've consistently reiterated that I don't think Hillary is a Republican or Neo-conservative. But you keep pretending as if I'm arguing that Hillary is a Republican.... "Right...because she is a Democrat. Therefore, they are going to judge her within her party. That makes perfect sense. " Err.. You are missing my point - I'm calling Hillary a conservative Democrat... When she hasn't been a progressive within the Democratic party and has been consistently been moved left by the party she is a conservative Dem.... When the standard for 'super liberal' is aligning yourself with the vast majority of policies supported by the 'liberal' Democratic party - and you are constantly moving left with the Democratic party - you are going to be considered a super liberal. Hillary has been, now more then ever, resistant to that push left. "Clinton moved on gay marriage when Obama did. Before that, you couldn't get elected outside of a handful of super liberal states...and definitely not as President, if you stated otherwise. Same with pathway to citizenship. Welcome to politics 101! Everyone isn't running for office in the small, lily white, ultra liberal state of Vermont. Just like Bernie gave in to the NRA, other politicians in other areas move with the general consensus of their state or the Democratic Party." I've called Obama late too - I wasn't suggesting Hillary move towards supporting gay marriage in 2004 though - by 2009/2010/2011/2012 if she had any balls as a social progressive she should have stood up for gay marriage 2013 is late. She didn't even have to say she would push for gay marriage - she could have said "I support gay marriage, but I think it's a state issue" but she didn't even do that! She literally waited until it was 51% of voters that supported gay marriage.... Let's be clear though - Gay Marriage was just one of the examples of Hillary only moving left when the majority of voters and the democratic party have moved left. She is resistant to change - she doesn't generally push for progressive change within the Democratic party - because she is a conservative Democrat. "That's not flipping. That was adopting a more progressive policy agenda. She was working with Bernie to include his more progressive policies in the Democratic platform. That's working WITH others, not flip-flopping." The only time I said she 'flipped' was on TPP and even then I didn't mean she flip flopped - I meant that she moved left.... Yeah she worked with Bernie to include progressive policies into the Democratic platform - she worked with him... What's your point? I'm not calling her a phony or saying she flip flops. I'm just saying that now, more then ever, she is clearly right of the Democratic platform She is a conservative Democrat. "No, Hillary ran on the most progressive platform that we have seen from any Democratic Nominee. No way was that platform right of what the Democratic Party represents in the majority of the country. You are way, way off on that statement." Yes she ran on the most progressive platform that we have seen from any Democratic Nominee... I agree with that. She ran on the most progressive platform AFTER being pushed left by Bernie - the Democratic platform included $15-an-hour minimum wage, Marijuana legalization, specific Wall Street reform, eradication of the death penalty and a carbon tax - all things Hillary had opposed throughout her career and throughout the primary. She was pushed left though... That's not Hillary, that's Hillary making concessions (which to be clear, it's great to make concessions and work with people - but that's irrelevant to what we are discussing). "Maybe you think the Bernie supporters are the Democratic Party. They are not. There are Blue collar workers, the middle class, college graduates who have been in jobs for a decade, Minorities (which often are more conservative), etc. The Democratic Party right now is starting a refocus platform on blue collar workers, not on the super liberal college students...who failed to get themselves to the voting booth. If they want to become a force in the party, they have to show up to vote...every ****ing election! " No I don't - it's just clear as day that Hillary has constantly been pushed left by her party - and even now is ideologically right of the Democratic platform She is a conservative Democrat... Bernie supporters are not the Democratic party, but they are a part of it. They would be the progressive wing of the party and Hillary along with many Establishment democrats (and the majority of Democrats) belong to the more conservative wing of the Democratic Party. A conservative Democrat is obviously still more liberal than a Republican, which is why from my first post (Other than OP that was just the video) I've said that I wouldn't call her a Republican or a Neo-Con but would call her a conservative Dem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
En_Sabah_Nur 9,366 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Bebe said: I wasn't suggesting Hillary move towards supporting gay marriage in 2004 though - by 2009/2010/2011/2012 if she had any balls as a social progressive she should have stood up for gay marriage 2013 is late. She didn't even have to say she would push for gay marriage - she could have said "I support gay marriage, but I think it's a state issue" but she didn't even do that! She literally waited until it was 51% of voters that supported gay marriage.... You do know that from 2009 - 2012/13 she was Secretary of State right?! So she was not supposed to comment on political matters, especially very controversial ones such as gay marriage at the time... 🤦♂️ Egypt. W Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
En_Sabah_Nur 9,366 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 3 hours ago, Bebe said: Political compass puts her at center right, and she is in a lot of issues. Most Democrats are in comparison to the rest of the world. Obama was pretty center right too, although would be closer left than Hillary. I am TRULY appalled by this graph! How DARE they put ANY democrat within the same block/hemisphere of Alan Keyes!!! That man is truly the closest thing to evil that you can get! He is truly a nut job who makes Mike Pence, Ted Cruz & **** Cheney look moderate & reasonable... After seeing this, I would trust FOX News(to get & source my information from) before I would EVER trust this disgusting appalling unconscionable website! Ugh! SMFH Egypt. W Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katharine Hepburn 4,607 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 At least she would have been competent xoxo Joanne Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whispering 18,865 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 6 hours ago, En_Sabah_Nur said: I am TRULY appalled by this graph! How DARE they put ANY democrat within the same block/hemisphere of Alan Keyes!!! That man is truly the closest thing to evil that you can get! He is truly a nut job who makes Mike Pence, Ted Cruz & **** Cheney look moderate & reasonable... After seeing this, I would trust FOX News(to get & source my information from) before I would EVER trust this disgusting appalling unconscionable website! Ugh! SMFH This! This graph is a complete joke, if Obama, Biden and Hillary are in the same block as the conservatives listed. They are miles apart! Hillary has been a moderate to liberal Democrat for fifty years, end of story! She was going to go as liberal as her party and constituents would let her go! I don't think people that haven't ever lived here truly understand that going from Arkansas or Tennessee to Vermont is like going to a completely different country! Lol The President has to consider all their people, not just the lily white ultra liberals from Vermont. That's actually why Democrats being more moderate and having the blue collar base is what puts them in office. The Democrats will have to pull back to the center to get some of their base back, if they want to try to get the Senate back and the White House...which is what I see them currently doing even now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan 0 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 13 hours ago, Bebe said: It's not too much of a stretch though. She would approach US-Russian relations and US-Chinese relations far differently to neocons. She is more interested in diplomatic relations than many republicans. With that said - she is probably as conservative as Democrats get. Slow on social progress, she was dragged into supporting Gay Marriage pretty late, her vote on Iraq, her praises of Henry Kissinger, she was sounds like a moderate Republican when she speaks on Iran and Cuba, her corporatism and ties to Wall Street. She says President Obama was wrong not to launch missile strikes on Syria in 2013, she pushed hard for the overthrow of Qadaffi in 2011, she supported the coup government in Honduras in 2009, she has backed escalation and prolongation of war in Afghanistan, she does not hesitate to back the use of drones for targeted killing, she has advocated for arming fighters in Syria, she has the financial support of the arms makers and many of their foreign customers, she waived restrictions at the State Department on selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates, Oman, and Qatar, she has consistently backed the military initiatives of Israel. That's why Neocon groups where holding campaign fundraisers for Clinton during the election rather than Trump: http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/24/neocon-robert-kagan-set-to-hold-major-fundraiser-for-hillary-clinton/ I wouldn't go as far as saying she is a Republican or Neocon, but she isn't that far off. She would be a 'progressive' Republican if she ran Republican - but she is a pretty conservative Democrat now. omg I am reading and barely understand anything. Damn I need to brush up on politics cause it all sounds like random jargon lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eighteen 5,430 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 not true. the republicans as a whole (save a few) have taken a 1 way ticket to crazy right wing/alternative universe land. even recently, mitch mcconnell (the senate majority leader) said a couple of days ago that there is a high level of satisfaction regarding donald trump. idk how you could get any more delusional than that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
En_Sabah_Nur 9,366 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 11 hours ago, 18 said: not true. the republicans as a whole (save a few) have taken a 1 way ticket to crazy right wing/alternative universe land. even recently, mitch mcconnell (the senate majority leader) said a couple of days ago that there is a high level of satisfaction regarding donald trump. idk how you could get any more delusional than that? He must have been drinking again... Egypt. W Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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