Ohio Gov. John Kasich Signs 20-Week Abortion Ban

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

2 minutes ago, Morphine Prince said:

20 weeks seems more reasonable than some of these other laws going around. 

That seems to be their intention to make it seem relatively more reasonable, but its still outrageous; It's not even at a decent point of viability (only 20-35% of fetuses survive @ 23 weeks on average; 50-70% at 24 weeks) Further, even that viability point doesn't address the root of the problem. The limits on when abortion should be illegal are all arbitrary when we consider why abortion should be a right in the first place. Even if some of these dates hide under the guise of "morality" (hence bills like the heartbeat bill  ) or others on misinterpretations of the science, its all flawed thinking.

Why make it 6 weeks? 20 weeks? 24 weeks? 30 weeks? 35 weeks? 35 weeks and 6 days?  At what point does the fetuses alleged "rights" supersede that over the mothers and why should it at all? If we believe women and people with uteruses should have true bodily autonomy and agency then this honestly doesn't matter, regardless of how morally reprehensible groups of people have tried to politicize this issue  

[Anastasia 6,093]

2 hours ago, ShockPop said:

If you haven't decided at 5 months then....

Idk a lot about pregnancy and such, but if at five months they find out there are very strong possibilities of serious health risks to the baby and/or the child, shouldn't the choice be there to not go through with it?

[Goosey 3,017]

1 hour ago, ItsTommyBitch said:

The war on women wages on  

War on women or war on babies? 

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

1 minute ago, Goosey said:

War on women or war on babies? 

Considering the war on women is much more multi-faceted than simply "Abortion" and Babies specifically are not a disenfranchised group of people (and in this case, fetuses aren't even "people" or persons in the first place  ) ...

Gonna have to go with Women. Pretty Easily  

[Goosey 3,017]

Just now, ItsTommyBitch said:

Gonna have to go with Women. Pretty Easily  

You said above there shouldn't be 'arbitrary' limits on abortion. So when is the limit? Live birth abortion? Because a baby doesn't appear out of thin air. It's in the womb for a good while—not a fetus, a fully-formed baby.

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

29 minutes ago, Goosey said:

You said above there shouldn't be 'arbitrary' limits on abortion. So when is the limit? Live birth abortion? Because a baby doesn't appear out of thin air. It's in the womb for a good while—not a fetus, a fully-formed baby.

Placing a limit at 6 weeks is based on emotion ("heartbeat!") and really just results in forcing women to give birth to babies they don't want to give birth to...Which is going against the rights of women to control their own bodies. Lots of women dont even know they are pregnant at 6 weeks  Placing a limit at 20 is less obvious an effect and more women may well be able to have abortions within that time frame that wish, but it also still harms late term abortions which are real and necessary for lots of reasons (also notoriously hard to acquire; so hard it should be illegal  ) Also... The number is still arbitrary; if you're going off of "organs! all the organs!" or "viable!" or "just a good number", the fact is not all fetuses will survive at that point. Not even all fetuses will survive at 24, 25, 26, 27 weeks in, even if the chances increase. It just becomes more controversial, but it shouldn't. People see abortion as an issue of the "baby's" rights versus the woman's rights, but fetuses aren't people and women's rights to their bodies should be absolute and not interfered with by the government and thats how I see it.

There's also really no slippery slope to indicate that late term or 3rd trimester abortions would become even remotely more "popular" if we removed bans on them. The vast majority of people with uteruses still have abortions early, but banning them later does nothing but stigmatize those who do and impede the process. The number of surgeons who even perform abortions past like 28 weeks are countable with your fingers in America and its not a vastly more popular set of skills to have even in Canada where there is not a limit. Finally, the reasons those who do have them later than 20 or 24 weeks or whatever are just as valid as those that have them on week 7 or week 2 or take abortion pills and medication early, etc. The funny thing is that if America could stop restricting access to abortion and women's reproductive care in general and begin to educate our public on sex education (which includes contraception  ) there would be even less abortion. Banning it doesn't prevent it, it just makes it less safe.

Oh and "live birth abortions" aren't a thing and "partial birth abortion" is a phrase meant to tug at the heartstrings and incite fear, outrage, and disgust  I'm not sure where you were going with this point.

I don't think there should be a limit at all basically.

[Goosey 3,017]

7 minutes ago, ItsTommyBitch said:

Oh and "live birth abortions" aren't a thing and "partial birth abortion" is a phrase meant to tug at the heartstrings and incite fear, outrage, and disgust  I'm not sure where you were going with this point.

I don't think there should be a limit at all basically.

There's no sudden difference in the baby when it pops out of there. The baby doesn't magically change on contact with the air. So what would be the difference between 'live birth abortion' (ie, murder) and an extreme late term abortion?

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

40 minutes ago, Goosey said:

There's no sudden difference in the baby when it pops out of there. The baby doesn't magically change on contact with the air. So what would be the difference between 'live birth abortion' (ie, murder) and an extreme late term abortion?

Whether or not something is "murder" is not determined by how humanlike the fetus looks or how viable it is outside of the womb at the end of the day; but by personhood. Fetuses become "babies" upon birth. They do not (and should not) have personhood.

Late term abortions, let's say 24-35 even are just that; abortions. The method of performing it also has no impact on whether its "murder" or not, in all cases of abortions, the fetus dies. That is a given. There are several ways that 3rd trimester or late term abortions are handled, but the ones I know of off of the top of my head would take several days to perform and essentially result in stillborn births (as the fetus must be removed from the womb); Not murder. It would also take even longer to travel to find a doctor who would perform them. Last I checked, there were still under 10 doctors in the United States that will perform extremely late term abortions (there were only 4 at some point in 2013) and its not like you can just walk into their office 9 months pregnant and say "get this thing out of me". At that point, I would imagine its medically and practically impossible for some people based on the sometimes unpredictable nature of pregnancy for someone to schedule an abortion at this point, in which case we are talking of hypotheticals upon hypotheticals upon hypotheticals  

Which is why we should provide women with all of the support and resources to be able to choose to have abortions as early and freely and safely as possible. We shouldn't try to shame women with mandatory ultrasound and sonograms or make them wait X time before going through an abortion, we shouldn't have doctors make personal remarks trying to patronize them for their decisions (Yes, there are laws that require this kind of behavior in America  )

But we also shouldn't demonize and stigmatize women who don't realize they need an abortion until the 20th-30th week. Or those who realize they have to have one for medical reasons, or even those who realize at the last moment that they are not ready to be parents. 

[Goosey 3,017]

1 hour ago, ItsTommyBitch said:

Whether or not something is "murder" is not determined by how humanlike the fetus looks or how viable it is outside of the womb at the end of the day; but by personhood. Fetuses become "babies" upon birth. They do not (and should not) have personhood.

Nonsense.

You're telling me it's okay to kill the baby 5 minutes before it's born, but after it's born it's taboo? Absurd. It's the exact same person, it just moved from one place to another. 

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

17 minutes ago, Goosey said:

Nonsense.

You're telling me it's okay to kill the baby 5 minutes before it's born, but after it's born it's taboo? Absurd. It's the exact same person, it just moved from one place to another. 

No. I'm telling you that stories about killing the fetus 5 minutes before its "born" are just that. Stories. It doesn't happen for lots of reasons; mostly medical and practical reasons, along with lots of political barriers that shouldn't exist and do more to harm women and their babies than help them... Shouldn't you know about this? Canada is one of the few places on earth where there are not limitations to abortion based on arbitrary time periods. And shocker, there is is still not a noteworthy increase of late term abortions or stories of women deciding 5 minutes before the birth to have an abortion.

Spoiler

This is also not a "thing" at all either. Most methods of late term abortion again take several days to fully execute and if the woman is giving birth in literally 5 minutes or even several hours, its way too far to stop this process; Some drugs can delay birth for up to 24 hours but then we risk infection post water break, etc. etc, its complicated. Basically, this results in a process of removal of what is essentially a stillborn baby.

There is still a kind of cultural frowning upon extremely late term abortions that discourages this, but that's to be expected.

That being said, A fetus goes through a lot of small but  important changes in the last trimester (28 weeks+) things like certain functions of organs, brain development, and fat deposits that increase the fetus's weight (and give it that real "baby" look ) but yeah, these things are objectively arbitrary in determining the validity of a woman's right to her own body and legally whether or not its murder. And for the last time, fetuses are not legally persons. Laws that have tried to give them even the semblance of personhood have been ruled unconstitutional before and are often being challenged by the ACLU even today.