Netherlands to ban Burqa in public spaces

[lego 44,165]

There are many Jewish people who are for BDS and against Israeli state, are they antisemitic? Same question.

If people would re-read, I already said it's a minority. For some it's cultural thing, for some it's religious, burqa and niqab are not even same. It does go under religious freedom and/or women being free to wear whatever they want in democratic country. 

It is islamophobia when these policies mostly come from European far-right parties who target minority within Muslim minority. It affects them, not you. There were similar arguments on this site against burqinis in France, even they don't hide the face and they all come from the same source. 

No one will be safer because of this, these women will just stay in their homes or not pay fines and criminals will do what they always did. 

[Melech 9,900]

2 minutes ago, lego said:

There are many Jewish people who are for BDS and against Israeli state, are they antisemitic? Same question.

If people would re-read, I already said it's a minority. For some it's cultural thing, for some it's religious, burqa and niqab are not even same. It does go under religious freedom and/or women being free to wear whatever they want in democratic country. 

It is islamophobia when these policies mostly come from European far-right parties who target minority within Muslim minority. It affects them, not you. There were similar arguments on this site against burqinis in France, even they don't hide the face and they all come from the same source. 

No one will be safer because of this, these women will just stay in their homes or not pay fines and criminals will do what they always did. 

If a muslim family (tho their religion doesn't matter here) kicks out their kid because it is gay and that is against their religious views and people criticize that, are they islamophpbic?

[lego 44,165]

🙄 No. Irrelevant to the topic. 

[Edonis 28,974]

7 hours ago, ItsTommyBitch said:

Thank you for providing personal concrete testimony to all of this. I think for a lot of people who are not Muslim or from the Middle East that are trying to defend the religion and the people, its easy to just say "Obviously not all Muslims are ____", and you think that'd be enough, but hearing and reading things like this (and the rest of your comments in this thread) is quite eye-opening to the specifics that we can't know as well  

It's no trouble! I honestly see a lot of misinformation regarding Islam and the Muslim community and people often wonder about stances on various topics in the world, so I'm glad I could help! 

[Edonis 28,974]

6 hours ago, Whispering said:

We are on a forum with Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists, etc. It shouldn't be a chore to answer a simple question. I'm not really religious, but if someone asked a question about the religion I grew up in, I would gladly take the time to answer their question as best as I could.

This forum is a place for discussion, where those of us who have been here for years feel comfortable asking questions and can get information from our friends. You will learn that in time, Newbie. 

Sorry that I didn't quote you earlier, but if you go a few pages back I did a very brief lite history on Hijab/burqa/niqab if you'd like to look at that. Hope it helps! 

[Benji 20,113]

2 minutes ago, lego said:

If people would re-read, I already said it's a minority. For some it's cultural thing, for some it's religious, burqa and niqab are not even same. It does go under religious freedom and/or women being free to wear whatever they want in democratic country. 

It is islamophobia when these policies mostly come from European far-right parties who target minority within Muslim minority. It affects them, not you. There were similar arguments on this site against burqinis in France, even they don't hide the face and they all come from the same source. 

No one will be safer because of this, these women will just stay in their homes or not pay fines and criminals will do what they always did. 

I don't think you're getting it. Most western places in the world do not allow you to cover your face in certain buildings and public transport for security but for a long time people have been on the fence about whether that applies to people's religious garments too. The law has to apply to everyone, simple as that. I can't break the law and claim "well, I believe I can do this" and just be given a free pass, that's not how the law works.

[Melech 9,900]

2 minutes ago, Benji said:

I don't think you're getting it. Most western places in the world do not allow you to cover your face in certain buildings and public transport for security but for a long time people have been on the fence about whether that applies to people's religious garments too. The law has to apply to everyone, simple as that. I can't break the law and claim "well, I believe I can do this" and just be given a free pass, that's not how the law works.

Like imagine the outrage if people walk around totally naked

 

[lego 44,165]

When it comes to public transport, it's perfectly legal to sit or stand in metro or bus looking like this during winter. 

No cop would fine this lady or demand that she shows her face before entering the bus. 

Everyone knows why this law is brought up now, but you can all believe what you want. 

It doesn't affect you, it's easy to judge these women. 

 

[Benji 20,113]

1 minute ago, Melech said:

Like imagine the outrage if people walk around totally naked

 

I wouldn't even be against that... however weird it may be

The issue with face covering is really complicated.

1. Security wise, allowing people to cover their faces is not good. Normally a crime with a face covering results in the police trying to identify where said garment/s came from.

2. Are extreme beliefs that are forced onto other people ones we want present and acceptable in the West? Do we want families that force their women to dress a certain way believe it is acceptable?

3. It's human nature to automatically be fearful of people with their face covered. It's the reason why everyone's eyes dart across the room when someone new enters. We quickly try to find out if that person is a threat or not subconsciously. We need to quickly work out who they are and what they intend to do, both of which are hard if they are covering their face. Not being able to identify someone can be scary.

[Benji 20,113]

2 minutes ago, lego said:

When it comes to public transport, it's perfectly legal to sit or stand in metro or bus looking like this during winter. 

No cop would fine this lady or demand that she shows her face before entering the bus. 

Everyone knows why this law is brought up now, but you can all believe what you want. 

It doesn't affect you, it's easy to judge these women. 

 

The law can force her to show her face. Currently, the burqa and other face coverings for religions are a grey area in the law. So no, it's not related.

[Melech 9,900]

Just now, Benji said:

I wouldn't even be against that... however weird it may be

The issue with face covering is really complicated.

1. Security wise, allowing people to cover their faces is not good. Normally a crime with a face covering results in the police trying to identify where said garment/s came from.

2. Are extreme beliefs that are forced onto other people ones we want present and acceptable in the West? Do we want families that force their women to dress a certain way believe it is acceptable?

3. It's human nature to automatically be fearful of people with their face covered. It's the reason why everyone's eyes dart across the room when someone new enters. We quickly try to find out if that person is a threat or not subconsciously. We need to quickly work out who they are and what they intend to do, both of which are hard if they are covering their face. Not being able to identify someone can be scary.

I don't know how it is in UK, but we have here nudity lakes and beaches 

And I do agree with the rest!

[Benji 20,113]

5 minutes ago, Melech said:

I don't know how it is in UK, but we have here nudity lakes and beaches 

And I do agree with the rest!

We have nudist woods and all sorts too  My mum brought back a pamphlet for this weird nudist holiday cottage thing before because she found it quite funny

[Nicole 1,809]

7 hours ago, Melech said:

White savior complex? Let's see what actual Muslims say about this in my country for example. In this case Ahmad Mansour, an arab muslim psychologist: 

"Die Burka ist kein religionsfreiheitliches Symbol, wie Kanzlerin Angela Merkel meint, und sie gehört nicht zur Vielfalt in der Gesellschaft. Sie ist nichts anderes als ein Unterdrückungsmechanismus Frauen gegenüber. Es ist eine Schande, dass die Burka auf europäischen Straßen geduldet wird. Sie muss unbedingt verboten werden, weil es genauso frauenverachtend ist, sie zu dulden."

"the burqa is not a religious symbol as Chancellor Merkel said and it doesn't belong into the diversity of our society. It is nothing else than a oppression mechanism against a woman. It's a shame that it is allowed in european streets. It should be urgent banned because it's against woman to allow it" 

There is rather a white savior complex to support this kind of stuff and think that Muslims/Islam can't deal with criticism. 

 

Also should it also be respected to kill gays because of religious beliefs? Or even homophobia? 

Anyone can find anyone in their country that supports a particular motion for their community. I'd imagine there are also Muslim's in your country that do not agree With Mansour. Also, this discussion isn't about killing gay people and you cannot equate choosing to wear a burka to such actions. 

I'm sure there are many Muslim's who do agree however with Mansour, and thus choose not to wear them. That's their choice. However, there are many Muslim's who choose to wear it and are willing to wear it because of the symbolic/religious gesture they put on it. Most of my Muslim friends are now wearing some kind of religious headpiece (mostly hijabs), and they honestly could not wait. They were not forced to put it on, and only did so when they were physically/mentally/spiritually ready. For them and their family, the hijabs and burkas (that their mothers often wear) is not a symbol of oppression. Perhaps in other countries where would be forced to, it is - but not in Western countries. 

Supporting freedom of religion is not a white saviour complex - justifying further oppression because "Saudi Arabia demands burkas it so any woman wearing a burka outside Saudi Arabia must also be opressed" is a white saviour complex. The Muslim community is extremely aware of the outdatedness of their religious readings, just like Christian's are, Catholics etc. The world has made that very clear.

All in all, just because some won't wear it, doesn't mean others shouldn't. If someone was going to steal something or planning some attack on someone/people, the illegality of burka's isn't gonna stop them from finding some way to cover their face. The law is not efficient, it's that simple.

[mic 1,415]

6 hours ago, lego said:

Idk why is it that usually MEN who open these topics and it's often MEN who are arguing so passionately about what Muslim WOMEN should and should not wear. They're not that different from the theocratic countries' leaders they like to criticize. 

The hypocrisy when feminist guy gives argument for abortion (for example) - "women should be allowed to do whatever they want with their bodies", but in the same breath he'll say "women should not be allowed to dress however they want because "liberal Europe, makes people uncomfortable, female slavery, safety reasons" - all buzz words to hide own islamophobia. And some even say it doesn't exist or that it's justified. 

If there would be a trend for some criminals to dress like ultra orthodox Jews and rob a bank, no one would campaign for ban of their religious garments and those little side curls. Minority of Muslim women in the West who want to wear niqabs are not a threat to safety.

These laws are only made to keep them inside four walls and further isolate them, instead of helping them integrate. 

Quoting Daniel Pipes about anything related to Muslims is like quoting someone from Stormfront about anything related to Jews. These people have a clear agenda. 

Far-right leaders in Europe have this as one of their most important policies, 'cause it's important to erase anything islamic from Christian Europe. That's why they are against mosques too. Burqinis and hijabs are next, maybe even beards. It's interesting how liberals can sound a lot like far right radicals. 

Don't bother to quote me. This thread is just full of hate and ignorance. This law won't prevent any criminal activity of those who want to harm people, it's painfully obvious. 

 

Ok mr. obvious I have decided to quote your smart thoughts anyway. I get your point that these laws may isolate the muslim women even more. However, their culture is what builds borders more than anything else really. When the people's security is at stake, the government needs to choose between the options which are all not necessarily good. And it's not like these women choose to live like this in many cases. By allowing this to be standard they wouldn't help these women either. You may say anything and quote 4346462462 people and throw 35523426534265 terms, however this is modern time slavery to me and I will never support this.

[Goosey 3,017]

8 hours ago, Melech said:

No one in this thread is against Muslims. If a Christian or a Jew would wear something like a Burqa people would also be against it. 

In the winter sometimes I wear this:

So what? Quit worrying.

Strange how right-wing parties and Islamophobia are very connected with these "burqa bans". Hm.