Armed police remove woman's clothes at beach in France

[Redstreak 6,653]

On 8/24/2016 at 11:42 AM, YourSweet666 said:

 

Where are all the feminist voices now? 

 

 

This has been spoken about by a ton of feminists? Defending her

[Luiz 4,253]

sorry if AP

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/burkini-ban-french-france-court-suspends-rule-law-forbidding-swimwear-worn-muslim-women-seriously-a7211396.html

Burkini ban suspended: French court declares law forbidding swimwear worn by Muslim women ‘clearly illegal’

[FATCAT 60,888]

4 minutes ago, YourSweet666 said:

 

People can be offended or annoyed by other people having tattoos all over their body, piercings, men wearing make-up and female clothes, metalheads, gothic style etc etc. where could this "I'm offended by what you're wearing" lead to? How is that affecting really anyone? 

Exactly!

[lego 44,165]

1 hour ago, River said:

but I can't support a cloth that covers the freedom of the woman, her body and her freedom to ****ing swim like a normal person, like how we're supposed to swim, with minimal clothes, especially to stay under the sun to tan our body.

 

That clothing was ironically created to give more freedom to women who want to practise their religion and still go to beach, they have a choice. It's their choice. And it's not up to men to decide. 

 

And it's very intolerant of you to not consider them a ****ing normal person, just because they don't dress like you.  

 

 

 

[Redstreak 6,653]

1 hour ago, River said:

I would forbid all the religious symbols and clothes and turn all the synagogues, mosques and churches into museums, but oh well.. I can only dream..

I can't support this law but I can't support the burkini, the law is stupid and it's purpose is just to piss off the muslims and the easy target is a woman, instead of dealing with the extremists and jail them.....

but I can't support a cloth that covers the freedom of the woman, her body and her freedom to ****ing swim like a normal person, like how we're supposed to swim, with minimal clothes, especially to stay under the sun to tan our body.

Please, buy a burkini and spend one hour with it inside the water and outside under the sun to take some tan, if it's possible.. they choose it, of course, they don't have any other choice, because they can't wear a bikini, and of course they'll say that it's their choice, because it's risky to say that it's not.. and the most annoying thing is that their husbands are shirtless.. **** you to all those men, cover yourselves!!!

And it's not only muslims women, I see those Jewish orthodox women, swimming with full clothes, with long skirts inside the water, ffs, it's not normal, it's humiliating, it's brainwashing and needs to stop!!

"god" didn't say cover yourself when you go to the beach, but a man said that and this action is too extremists.

 

 

 

 

Why are you assuming that the woman has no power in making her own choices? Believe it or not some women like, of their own accord, to be more covered up and has nothing to do with "removing their freedom". The clothing having religious connotations doesn't exclude her from having had the ability to make her own decisions for herself. I like to swim with my shirt on. Am I hindering my ability to make free choices?

[River 127,415]

6 minutes ago, YourSweet666 said:

 

That clothing was ironically created to give more freedom to women who want to practise their religion and still go to beach, they have a choice. It's their choice. And it's not up to men to decide. 

 

And it's very intolerant of you to not consider them a ****ing normal person, just because they don't dress like you.  

To choose how to go the beach between burkini or niqab/hijab/burqa it's not a choice, it's like to choose which shackles do you like the most before you go to jail..

It's too choose how do you want to oppress your body and to how to satisfy your oppressor..

Do they have a choice between bikini or burkini? no, they don't.

And just for the record, my complaint is not only to Islam but to any religion that oppressing women.. Islam is just the subject here..

**you are right, it was wrong to say that and I'm sorry, thanks for pointing it out!

12 minutes ago, Redstreak said:

Why are you assuming that the woman has no power in making her own choices? Believe it or not some women like, of their own accord, to be more covered up and has nothing to do with "removing their freedom". The clothing having religious connotations doesn't exclude her from having had the ability to make her own decisions for herself. I like to swim with my shirt on. Am I hindering my ability to make free choices?

Your shirt doesn't have religious connotations, but burkini yes, it's a solution for a religious law.

Now to both of you, IF there was no religious law and nothing to tell them which cloths to wear, I would say nothing, I would even fight for their right to wear burqa in France.

 

 

[Redstreak 6,653]

4 minutes ago, River said:

To choose how to go the beach between burkini or niqab/hijab/burqa it's not a choice, it's like to choose which shackles do you like the most before you go to jail..

It's too choose how do you want to oppress your body and to how to satisfy your oppressor..

Do they have a choice between bikini or burkini? no, they don't.

And just for the record, my complaint is not only to Islam but to any religion that oppressing women.. Islam is just the subject here..

**you are right, it was wrong to say that and I'm sorry, thanks for pointing it out!

Your shirt doesn't have religious connotations, but burkini yes, it's a solution for a religious law.

Now to both of you, IF there was no religious law and nothing to tell them which cloths to wear, I would say nothing, I would even fight for their right to wear burqa in France.

 

 

But there are like a ton of religious laws that no one decides to follow even though they're very religious. To say anyone who wears this clothing is blanketed forced to do it is just off. I can't see how it's liberating to infantilize a woman and tell her she's not smart enough to make her own choices and then telling her what clothing she must (or not) wear to actually be empowered. 

[SKANK 14,288]

Forced into clothing by one culture, forced out of it by another.

[River 127,415]

2 minutes ago, Redstreak said:

But there are like a ton of religious laws that no one decides to follow even though they're very religious. To say anyone who wears this clothing is blanketed forced to do it is just off. I can't see how it's liberating to infantilize a woman and tell her she's not smart enough to make her own choices and then telling her what clothing she must (or not) wear to actually be empowered. 

Tell me if it's correct:

In some strongly jewish orthodox communities there is the "modesty squad", they check every women if they are covered well and by the law, is it correct? is it leaving any choice to them? if they are not covered enough they get a punishment, it's equal to the Islamic religious police

Now, do we really choose our religion or our parents teach it to us since we are born?

We never chose the religion, we never chose to practice, we were brainwashed since day 1.

There is a reason why in some Islamic countries women can't drive, can't leave the house without permission, can't go to the stadium to watch a football match and so on, it all starts with the basic thing in life: the choice to wear what you want.

Now, those poor women in France, I really feel bad for them, they are stuck in between 2 men, the police and their husband, what can they do? 1 tells them to cover and the other tells them to take off..

Nobody should force a person what to wear, not the ****ing police or a religion, nothing! it supposed to be 100% free will. as long as it's not, I will keep on fighting for this, for the right to choose what you want to wear with 100% freedom, no laws, religious or a country, to tell you that!

 

[TiphEret 1,320]

I got super angry with that. Also I don't know if you guys understood but those decisions and "law" passed where done by mayor in some cities, so not all cities are doing this and that's why it had to stop because it was ruled as illegal. The ground to forbid someone of such clothing was not legitimate at all and honestly it's a shame that in France some mayor think that doing this is acceptable.

I could be a man going wearing a ski suit and a hat, would they undress me? No! it's clearly stigmatization and discrimination. It disgusts me and this under the disguise of the state of emergency for our own safety! I tell you what would make me feel safe: not corrupted politicians, stop creating wars and engage ind dialogue, respect the immigrants and their children that come to our country and respect their culture. Maybe they would be willing to integrate if we weren't condescending and spitting on them like we do now. 

[Nicole 1,809]

5 hours ago, River said:

but I can't support a cloth that covers the freedom of the woman, her body and her freedom to ****ing swim like a normal person, like how we're supposed to swim, with minimal clothes, especially to stay under the sun to tan our body.

Please, buy a burkini and spend one hour with it inside the water and outside under the sun to take some tan, if it's possible.. they choose it, of course, they don't have any other choice, because they can't wear a bikini, and of course they'll say that it's their choice, because it's risky to say that it's not.. and the most annoying thing is that their husbands are shirtless.. **** you to all those men, cover yourselves!!!

And it's not only muslims women, I see those Jewish orthodox women, swimming with full clothes, with long skirts inside the water, ffs, it's not normal, it's humiliating, it's brainwashing and needs to stop!!

"god" didn't say cover yourself when you go to the beach, but a man said that and this action is too extremists.

You say we're "supposed" to swim with minimal clothes - a "normal" person swims with minimal clothes, but in 1907 an Australian swimmer was arrested in the US for wearing a one-piece without long sleeves on a beach. A bikini was declared as "sinful" by a past Pope (1940s I think). You are acting as if bikinis have been history's one and only choice of swimwear, when in fact it has only really become the most "common" in recent times. And if the purpose of the beach is also to spend time in the sun to tan, I hope you're also condemning people who cover up with pants and long sleeve shirts - even rash shirts in the water - so they don't burn - how dare they not do what a normal person does at the beach? 

You can't support a "cloth that covers the freedom of women" but giving Muslim women (and anyone who wishes to dress modestly) freedom is exactly what it's designed to do: 

"When I invented the burkini in early 2004, it was to give women freedom, not to take it away...when I was a girl I missed out on sport – we didn’t participate in anything because we chose to be modest, but for my niece I wanted to find something that would adapt to the Australian lifestyle and western clothing but at the same time fulfil the needs of a Muslim girl...It was about integration and acceptance and being equal and about not being judged. It was difficult for us at the time, the Muslim community, they had a fear of stepping out. They had fear of going to public pools and beaches and so forth, and I wanted girls to have the confidence to continue a good life. Sport is so important, and we are Australian! I wanted to do something positive – and anyone can wear this, Christian, Jewish, Hindus. It’s just a garment to suit a modest person, or someone who has skin cancer, or a new mother who doesn’t want to wear a bikini, it’s not symbolising Islam...This negativity that is happening now and what is happening in France makes me so sad. I hope it’s not because of racism. I think they have misunderstood a garment that is so positive – it symbolises leisure and happiness and fun and fitness and health and now they are demanding women get off the beach and back into their kitchens? This has given women freedom, and they want to take that freedom away? So who is better, the Taliban or French politicians? They are as bad as each other." - Aheda Zanetti, designer of the Burkini. 

 

 

[uo111 5,282]

Did something happen about France being liberal?

They seem to be a more conservative country than their European neighbors.

[River 127,415]

8 hours ago, Nicole said:

You say we're "supposed" to swim with minimal clothes - a "normal" person swims with minimal clothes, but in 1907 an Australian swimmer was arrested in the US for wearing a one-piece without long sleeves on a beach. A bikini was declared as "sinful" by a past Pope (1940s I think). You are acting as if bikinis have been history's one and only choice of swimwear, when in fact it has only really become the most "common" in recent times. And if the purpose of the beach is also to spend time in the sun to tan, I hope you're also condemning people who cover up with pants and long sleeve shirts - even rash shirts in the water - so they don't burn - how dare they not do what a normal person does at the beach? 

You can't support a "cloth that covers the freedom of women" but giving Muslim women (and anyone who wishes to dress modestly) freedom is exactly what it's designed to do: 

"When I invented the burkini in early 2004, it was to give women freedom, not to take it away...when I was a girl I missed out on sport – we didn’t participate in anything because we chose to be modest, but for my niece I wanted to find something that would adapt to the Australian lifestyle and western clothing but at the same time fulfil the needs of a Muslim girl...It was about integration and acceptance and being equal and about not being judged. It was difficult for us at the time, the Muslim community, they had a fear of stepping out. They had fear of going to public pools and beaches and so forth, and I wanted girls to have the confidence to continue a good life. Sport is so important, and we are Australian! I wanted to do something positive – and anyone can wear this, Christian, Jewish, Hindus. It’s just a garment to suit a modest person, or someone who has skin cancer, or a new mother who doesn’t want to wear a bikini, it’s not symbolising Islam...This negativity that is happening now and what is happening in France makes me so sad. I hope it’s not because of racism. I think they have misunderstood a garment that is so positive – it symbolises leisure and happiness and fun and fitness and health and now they are demanding women get off the beach and back into their kitchens? This has given women freedom, and they want to take that freedom away? So who is better, the Taliban or French politicians? They are as bad as each other." - Aheda Zanetti, designer of the Burkini. 

 

 

ok if we are talking about history, our natural way to swim is naked and without any piece of clothes, like the rest of the animals on the planet, during the prehistoric times and during the bronze age we, human, swam totally naked, from the beginning of the homo sapiens, the Greeks, the Romans and so on. it started to change when religion became extreme and we were ordered to be more modest and to hide our body and the first to effected by it it's the women, not only at the beach but at the daily life..

It's easy to give examples from 1907, it's the year were gays couldn't come out and had no rights and there were slaves in America.. so I don't buy this excuse.

Now about the designer of the burkini.. she's using a nice brainwashing speech.

if you clearly read the word when she says "it was to give women freedom, not to take it away" she's not talking about freedom of choice, but the feeling of swimming freely without heavy and wet clothes to disturb you, it's very tricky and she's smart enough to use this sentence to make people think about freedom of choice.

"it’s not symbolising Islam" - so why to call it Burkini in the first place? why to associate it to Islamic burqa?

but, I think this one is important - "They had fear of going to public pools and beaches and so forth, and I wanted girls to have the confidence" with this I totally agree with her and it's a shame that they need to fear to go to the beach, also another reason why it's makes me angry all those modesty laws in all the religions..

look, I don't know if you read the rest of my posts, but I'm not against to burkini as a clothes, I'm against the background behind, there's no different between burkini and a diving suite, it's the same.. it's just the fact that there is a man behind who declared a law that forbid a woman to show her body, her hair, in extreme places even their eyes, for this I'm fighting!

[Redstreak 6,653]

38 minutes ago, River said:

ok if we are talking about history, our natural way to swim is naked and without any piece of clothes, like the rest of the animals on the planet, during the prehistoric times and during the bronze age we, human, swam totally naked, from the beginning of the homo sapiens, the Greeks, the Romans and so on. it started to change when religion became extreme and we were ordered to be more modest and to hide our body and the first to effected by it it's the women, not only at the beach but at the daily life..

It's easy to give examples from 1907, it's the year were gays couldn't come out and had no rights and there were slaves in America.. so I don't buy this excuse.

Now about the designer of the burkini.. she's using a nice brainwashing speech.

if you clearly read the word when she says "it was to give women freedom, not to take it away" she's not talking about freedom of choice, but the feeling of swimming freely without heavy and wet clothes to disturb you, it's very tricky and she's smart enough to use this sentence to make people think about freedom of choice.

"it’s not symbolising Islam" - so why to call it Burkini in the first place? why to associate it to Islamic burqa?

but, I think this one is important - "They had fear of going to public pools and beaches and so forth, and I wanted girls to have the confidence" with this I totally agree with her and it's a shame that they need to fear to go to the beach, also another reason why it's makes me angry all those modesty laws in all the religions..

look, I don't know if you read the rest of my posts, but I'm not against to burkini as a clothes, I'm against the background behind, there's no different between burkini and a diving suite, it's the same.. it's just the fact that there is a man behind who declared a law that forbid a woman to show her body, her hair, in extreme places even their eyes, for this I'm fighting!

Stop

****ing

infantilizing 

women

 

You're so wrapped up in some savior complex you can't even fathom you're own hypocrisy. "Women should be empowered to make their own choices as long as I agree with the choice she's making! I also somehow know her better than she does  and have determined she is trapped under an oppressive regime just by her clothing style!"

 

And then what happens when you fight and "enlighten" these women (because apparently they aren't smart enough without your help) and they continue to want to dress like that? Do you concede that it's their choice by design or do you simply scapegoat to some different form of covert theocracy?

 

Now of course, there are absolutely a ton of cases and countries where women legitimately have no choice in what they would like to wear, but your inability to recognize that that doesn't apply to everybody is going to lead into some really problematic territories.

 

Maybe instead of trying to assume you know what's best for these women, you behave in the same way you claim to want the "authoritative male/religion in her life" to behave, by not trying to have a hand in how these women carry themselves; too modest for you or not

 

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/modesty-misogyny

[Nicole 1,809]

24 minutes ago, River said:

ok if we are talking about history, our natural way to swim is naked and without any piece of clothes, like the rest of the animals on the planet, during the prehistoric times and during the bronze age we, human, swam totally naked, from the beginning of the homo sapiens, the Greeks, the Romans and so on. it started to change when religion became extreme and we were ordered to be more modest and to hide our body and the first to effected by it it's the women, not only at the beach but at the daily life..

It's easy to give examples from 1907, it's the year were gays couldn't come out and had no rights and there were slaves in America.. so I don't buy this excuse.

Now about the designer of the burkini.. she's using a nice brainwashing speech.

if you clearly read the word when she says "it was to give women freedom, not to take it away" she's not talking about freedom of choice, but the feeling of swimming freely without heavy and wet clothes to disturb you, it's very tricky and she's smart enough to use this sentence to make people think about freedom of choice.

"it’s not symbolising Islam" - so why to call it Burkini in the first place? why to associate it to Islamic burqa?

but, I think this one is important - "They had fear of going to public pools and beaches and so forth, and I wanted girls to have the confidence" with this I totally agree with her and it's a shame that they need to fear to go to the beach, also another reason why it's makes me angry all those modesty laws in all the religions..

look, I don't know if you read the rest of my posts, but I'm not against to burkini as a clothes, I'm against the background behind, there's no different between burkini and a diving suite, it's the same.. it's just the fact that there is a man behind who declared a law that forbid a woman to show her body, her hair, in extreme places even their eyes, for this I'm fighting!

On naming it the "burkini": "When I named it the burkini I didn’t really think it was a burqa for the beach. Burqa was just a word for me – I’d been brought up in Australia all my life, and I’d designed this swimsuit and I had to call it something quickly. It was the combination of two cultures – we’re Australians but we are also Muslim by choice. The burqa doesn’t symbolise anything here, and it’s not mentioned in the Qur’an and our religion does not ask us to cover our faces, it’s the wearer’s choice to do so. Burqa is nowhere in any Islamic text. I had to look the word up, and it was described as a kind of coat and cover-all, and at the other end you had the bikini, so I combined the two."

About the background you're saying you disagree with - the "control" that so many people seem to be worried about isn't as concerning as people make it out to be, among most Muslim communities anyway (talking about Westernised countries). I live in a predominately Arab/Middle-Eastern populated suburb, officially, Islam is the predominating religion in my suburb. I have friends who have celebrated the day where they see themselves ready to start wearing the hijab. They're proud to wear it. They'd never, ever been forced. To many, it's a journey. One of my friends personally refuses to wear one because she knows she's not ready for the commitment. Her finance has no problem with it. Many older Muslim women I know in my community have even taken theirs off, their husbands have had no problem with it. I'm not saying their aren't some men who may insist women wear it - I've seen them too - but people spend far too much time nitpicking Muslim women with some idea that every one of them need saving when in fact majority are quite happy the way they are living, probably more happy than the people that spend every minute of their time trying to find reasons to oppress them.

Until they - or anyone in any religion - say they need "help", people should stop trying to save them.