Beyoncé, Rihanna & more: 23 ways to killed if your black in America

July 19, 2016

2 hours ago, Harry said:

Well you've accused me and plenty of others of being sexist and anti-feminist so how isn't that the same thing? Hypocrite. And when we're having a conversation ABOUT RACE, it's kind of necessary to discuss RACE. I don't knee jerk if you criticise a black person because I'm not an idiot. But when the topic is racism and you're saying things about people to do with their race, yes I see some prejudice.

Okay you're still trying to deflect obvious racist killings. I needn't respond to ignorance that I've already addressed so I'm gonna let that one go.

Oh please... You've made it sound like I've launched a smear campaign against you. It's not my fault if people agree with my opinions, and I certainly don't have any kind of "influence" that would make it so. I sure as hell don't feel guilty about speaking my mind either so that guilt trip has failed, just FYI. Talking in Americanisms because we're discussing issues that are happening in..... America. I know how much you love to drive conversations off-topic (like you've done here) as you lack the ability to string together a coherent argument, but 'America' is literally in the title of this thread...

"...as a fellow Brit, you should have my back when it comes to talking about an American issue from a British perspective". No I shouldn't, and you telling me what I should do really pisses me off. I don't have to do anything because you've instructed me. How dare you? And you wonder why I think you're pompous? You literally tell me what to do... Why do you think you have authority over me? Because you have a few years on me? You're one of the last people on here that I'd take instructions from, so keep that mess for yourself next time you try to police me.

LMAO you are not 'complex'. When will you get off that high horse? You've already stated you'd rather focus on name calling than go deeper, what's so complex about that?

For the record, I don't think you're a full blown racist. I know I said that before but it's because your ignorant statements angered me and I couldn't be bothered to go on. But just because you like an album by a black person doesn't mean you don't hold certain racial prejudices. I don't know why you can't understand what I mean by this.

I thought we were getting somewhere in our PM convo too but you've reminded me why I gave up before. And by bringing how positive and progressive that conversation was, you defeat your own point of me always wanting to jump on you and accuse you of something no matter what. So I'm glad that I have this to refer back to next time you try and paint me out as a bully because you've acknowledged the truth, that I can be civil and pleasant with you aren't saying inflammatory things. Even though you'd love everyone to believe that I attack every word you say. Also great to see you finally admit that you thrive off of - and contribute to - negativity.

Because every time you tell me you "have a black friend" or whatever, you follow it up with something that sounds very prejudice? I have my own brain and I take things in my own way, and I express it. I don't care how much something is insisted... Would you rather I lie and say you changed my mind? Someone like Trump would probably say he's not sexist or racist, but given the evidence I'm inclined to disbelieve him regardless. So no, you're right, I do not apologise.

I haven't actually said "you're sexist" or "you're anti-female." I've merely said that you and some others have some sexism under the surface that you may not realise until someone points it out to you. Because sexism is very much an invisible problem and people think you're just being too sensitive when you bring it up, despite the fact that you know it's real and wonder why no one else can see it too. But I never flat out called anyone sexist or anti female. I shy away from extremes unless there's evidence beyond all doubt. Because ignorance and prejudice come before the most extreme examples. That is why it's not the same thing and that's why I'm not being a hypocrite. Yes, we're in a topic about race so of course we'll talk about race but that doesn't translate to "accuse people of racism." I'm not being racist, I'm critiquing how we view race and racial issues. Questioning a standard or a system doth not a racist make.

I'm not trying to deflect anything, just pointing things out. Pointing things out doesn't mean you're trying to change the subject. I'm trying to widen it, if anything. I don't understand why, the deeper and deeper I delve into my theory and simplify it more and more, you still don't get it.

Maybe not a smear campaign but you've certainly sown more than a few seeds of doubt and you have more influence than you think. The person I was talking about who believed your claims of racism towards me actually liked your post. I personally keep my views about people I don't like to myself unless they come for me. I don't even have to say something for you to start implying about "I'm sure someone will be along soon to say..." in the hopes of pushing my buttons and making me defend myself (which translates to you as nastiness) and make me look bad. I don't go around doing that to you - could you pay me the same courtesy? I've already explained all this to you before in a very emotional speech. I find it very threatening when you do this to me. Stop it. You can speak your mind, but just be civil and polite about it. And no, you're talking in Americanisms in the hope of making Americans see what you've written and agree with you because they understand the political references. Just because the topic's about America doesn't mean you accuse non-Americans of being Trump and Republican supporters. You know what you're doing, I know what you're doing. And for the record, I've always been an Obama supporter and I'm supporting Hillary now.

All I'm saying is that, as a Brit, you should understand my point of view because we share the same culture. I get that from other Brits here, when we put down Americans for their guns, creationism, lack of geographical knowledge, etc. We know what we mean by that, we know we mean no harm and are just trying to be helpful. I wish Americans would start taking the same attitude towards race as Britain does and I'm trying to introduce our way of thinking a little bit. You should realise what I'm doing and not call me a racist for it. It's just a natural Brits having each others backs thing. I'm not instructing you to do it, just wondering why you don't do it in the first place. And you've told me what to do before. Don't act like you haven't. It's funny when arrogant people think everyone else is arrogant. You'll probably say the same for me, but hey...

Now, here we find a clear misunderstanding of what I meant. I wasn't talking about me, I was saying we are ALL complex beings, as is the nature of humanity. It's not a boast, it's a fact. We should be proud of being complex. And wtf? When did I say "I'd rather focus on name calling than going deeper"? What the actual f**k? I said that racism is harder to prove when there's not name calling and you have to start looking deeper to find out the truth. That is not what you just said.

Well, if you don't think I'm a full blown racist (once again, another assumption you've got wrong about me), then maybe you should stop calling me names and bestowing labels on me until you're absolutely sure of what you're saying. Maybe ask me my views on race and ask me about specific racial issues to see what my take is on them. After all that, then you can decide if I deserve a racist label. And I guarantee you'll realise how bad you've made yourself look. Calling me a racist is like saying the grass is blue. It's just incomprehensible. I think there are 4 levels of racism - racial ignorance, racial prejudice, racism and extreme racism. I am none of them but I take big offence at the fact that you just ignored the first 2 possibilities and jumped straight to level 3 with me just because you didn't like what I had to say about one race issue. Oh, I perfectly understand what you mean when you say that liking an album by a black artist doesn't make you not racist. I know that there are people out there who like black music, have black friends and even date blacks but can still harbour racism, but it'll be ignorance and prejudice. If they were full blown racists, they wouldn't involve themselves in these behaviours because racists don't like anything to do with a race that isn't their own. I understand that. But I want you to understand that I'm not at any level of racism. I don't know how much proof I have to give you that I'm not. You just dismiss whatever evidence I give you anyway. I don't know why you can't understand that.

I curse myself now for quoting you in this thread because I should've known it would devolve into this just as we were making progress. Then you bail on me again, like you always do, just when we're finally getting somewhere. I spent a lot of time on that PM and I want you to reply to it at some point. I think we can get along so much better when we don't discuss in public. These moments have made me see, that yes, perhaps you can get along with me and you won't bring down everything I say. But when it's public, it's like you have something to prove, you take on a different character. And it's like you're not prepared to drop your first impression of me no matter what I say. I just wish you could start speaking to me publicly the way you do in your PMs. We were so relaxed there recently. And I didn't say I thrive off of and contribute to negativity (you do too, after all). I just said that most of the time, there's negative things in the media and as such, I'm forced into mostly being negative. But it's not like I want to be that way. If there's positive stuff, I'll be positive.

What did I follow up with that sounded prejudiced? Seriously, what? No, I'm asking you why, even after presenting endless evidence, do you still insist on calling me a racist? Even though you've defended yourself against accusations I made of you and I accepted your explanation and apologised? How come you won't pay me the same courtesy? I think it's very rude to keep calling someone something after they've repeatedly proved that they're not. And really, you think I'm on Trump territory? I'm not suggesting that Mexico needs to build a wall or Muslims shouldn't be allowed into the country. What he's saying is racism, there's clearly no denying that, whatever he says. But I'm against those policies. So, why are you still calling me a racist?

July 19, 2016

6 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I haven't actually said "you're sexist" or "you're anti-female." I've merely said that you and some others have some sexism under the surface that you may not realise until someone points it out to you. Because sexism is very much an invisible problem and people think you're just being too sensitive when you bring it up, despite the fact that you know it's real and wonder why no one else can see it too. But I never flat out called anyone sexist or anti female. I shy away from extremes unless there's evidence beyond all doubt. Because ignorance and prejudice come before the most extreme examples. That is why it's not the same thing and that's why I'm not being a hypocrite. Yes, we're in a topic about race so of course we'll talk about race but that doesn't translate to "accuse people of racism." I'm not being racist, I'm critiquing how we view race and racial issues. Questioning a standard or a system doth not a racist make.

I'm not trying to deflect anything, just pointing things out. Pointing things out doesn't mean you're trying to change the subject. I'm trying to widen it, if anything. I don't understand why, the deeper and deeper I delve into my theory and simplify it more and more, you still don't get it.

Maybe not a smear campaign but you've certainly sown more than a few seeds of doubt and you have more influence than you think. The person I was talking about who believed your claims of racism towards me actually liked your post. I personally keep my views about people I don't like to myself unless they come for me. I don't even have to say something for you to start implying about "I'm sure someone will be along soon to say..." in the hopes of pushing my buttons and making me defend myself (which translates to you as nastiness) and make me look bad. I don't go around doing that to you - could you pay me the same courtesy? I've already explained all this to you before in a very emotional speech. I find it very threatening when you do this to me. Stop it. You can speak your mind, but just be civil and polite about it. And no, you're talking in Americanisms in the hope of making Americans see what you've written and agree with you because they understand the political references. Just because the topic's about America doesn't mean you accuse non-Americans of being Trump and Republican supporters. You know what you're doing, I know what you're doing. And for the record, I've always been an Obama supporter and I'm supporting Hillary now.

All I'm saying is that, as a Brit, you should understand my point of view because we share the same culture. I get that from other Brits here, when we put down Americans for their guns, creationism, lack of geographical knowledge, etc. We know what we mean by that, we know we mean no harm and are just trying to be helpful. I wish Americans would start taking the same attitude towards race as Britain does and I'm trying to introduce our way of thinking a little bit. You should realise what I'm doing and not call me a racist for it. It's just a natural Brits having each others backs thing. I'm not instructing you to do it, just wondering why you don't do it in the first place. And you've told me what to do before. Don't act like you haven't. It's funny when arrogant people think everyone else is arrogant. You'll probably say the same for me, but hey...

Now, here we find a clear misunderstanding of what I meant. I wasn't talking about me, I was saying we are ALL complex beings, as is the nature of humanity. It's not a boast, it's a fact. We should be proud of being complex. And wtf? When did I say "I'd rather focus on name calling than going deeper"? What the actual f**k? I said that racism is harder to prove when there's not name calling and you have to start looking deeper to find out the truth. That is not what you just said.

Well, if you don't think I'm a full blown racist (once again, another assumption you've got wrong about me), then maybe you should stop calling me names and bestowing labels on me until you're absolutely sure of what you're saying. Maybe ask me my views on race and ask me about specific racial issues to see what my take is on them. After all that, then you can decide if I deserve a racist label. And I guarantee you'll realise how bad you've made yourself look. Calling me a racist is like saying the grass is blue. It's just incomprehensible. I think there are 4 levels of racism - racial ignorance, racial prejudice, racism and extreme racism. I am none of them but I take big offence at the fact that you just ignored the first 2 possibilities and jumped straight to level 3 with me just because you didn't like what I had to say about one race issue. Oh, I perfectly understand what you mean when you say that liking an album by a black artist doesn't make you not racist. I know that there are people out there who like black music, have black friends and even date blacks but can still harbour racism, but it'll be ignorance and prejudice. If they were full blown racists, they wouldn't involve themselves in these behaviours because racists don't like anything to do with a race that isn't their own. I understand that. But I want you to understand that I'm not at any level of racism. I don't know how much proof I have to give you that I'm not. You just dismiss whatever evidence I give you anyway. I don't know why you can't understand that.

I curse myself now for quoting you in this thread because I should've known it would devolve into this just as we were making progress. Then you bail on me again, like you always do, just when we're finally getting somewhere. I spent a lot of time on that PM and I want you to reply to it at some point. I think we can get along so much better when we don't discuss in public. These moments have made me see, that yes, perhaps you can get along with me and you won't bring down everything I say. But when it's public, it's like you have something to prove, you take on a different character. And it's like you're not prepared to drop your first impression of me no matter what I say. I just wish you could start speaking to me publicly the way you do in your PMs. We were so relaxed there recently. And I didn't say I thrive off of and contribute to negativity (you do too, after all). I just said that most of the time, there's negative things in the media and as such, I'm forced into mostly being negative. But it's not like I want to be that way. If there's positive stuff, I'll be positive.

What did I follow up with that sounded prejudiced? Seriously, what? No, I'm asking you why, even after presenting endless evidence, do you still insist on calling me a racist? Even though you've defended yourself against accusations I made of you and I accepted your explanation and apologised? How come you won't pay me the same courtesy? I think it's very rude to keep calling someone something after they've repeatedly proved that they're not. And really, you think I'm on Trump territory? I'm not suggesting that Mexico needs to build a wall or Muslims shouldn't be allowed into the country. What he's saying is racism, there's clearly no denying that, whatever he says. But I'm against those policies. So, why are you still calling me a racist?

Okay, well... I've merely said that you and some others have some racism under the surface that you may not realise until someone points it out to you. Because racism is very much an invisible problem and people think you're just being too sensitive when you bring it up, despite the fact that you know it's real and wonder why no one else can see it too. But I never flat out called anyone racist or anti black. I shy away from extremes unless there's evidence beyond all doubt. Because ignorance and prejudice come before the most extreme examples.

I can literally say the same back to you on this subject from my point of view. Okay, yeah I did flat out call you a racist but I already admitted in my last post that it was a bit extreme (even though you chose to misinterpret that here anyway, but oh well).

Well for starters it's not my fault if I'm influential. What do you want me to do, stop posting? You'd probably love it if I did but there's absolutely no reason I should be quiet about this. I haven't gone around whispering about you to anyone. If my posts bring attention to problematic things you say that other people pick up on, then it should ring alarm bells for you. Not for me. To me it just sounds like you're trying to bounce off any criticism towards you as illegitimate because you think you're perfect. When I criticise you, none of it's valid because I'm a nasty person who's just trying to drag you down. When people agree with me, it's because I've "planted seeds" and they couldn't possibly have their own opinion that has nothing to do with me. I'm not special and neither are you, and I think it's pretty rude of you to imply that people on this site are too dumb to make up their own minds about what you say. Though admittedly flattering that you think they'd give a **** about what I say to that degree...

I love how the bulk of your arguments to me are about "you don't know me!!!" "why don't you see the real me!!!" but then you constantly tell me about my own gains and psychology. "..in the hopes of pushing my buttons and making me defend myself" "you're talking in Americanisms in the hope of making Americans see what you've written and agree with you because they understand the political references". All bullsh*t. No offence to Americans here but why the hell would I want them specifically to agree with me? Wonderful if they do but certainly not a goal of mine to get anyone on my back. What a weird thing to say. My concern here is about calling out your prejudices and ignorance (which you're still trying to swerve away from, by the way), not a popularity contest. Seems to be very much on your mind, though. Funny that.

Sounds to me like you're just generalising Americans. Won't delve into that though as it'll drive us even further off topic, and I imagine you'll accuse me of pandering to them again. I don't understand your point of view because it's intolerant. Please don't label us as the same because we are not and I so badly don't want to be associated with you.

"racism is harder to prove when there's not name calling and you have to start looking deeper to find out the truth" well that I certainly do agree with and would actually apply to this conversation.

Are you actually stupid? I'm struggling now because I thought you were smart. I said you ARE NOT a full blown racist. Please re-read that part of what I said. "I take big offence at the fact that you just ignored the first 2 possibilities and jumped straight to level 3 with me" ... I literally said that I don't think you're a racist but you hold certain racial prejudices. Read what I say before you even think about trying to make me look bad.

You're making it sound like we have had nothing but pleasant conversations in PMs but I could quit easily prove that is an enormous lie. In fact the worst has probably occurred over PM. Again, you're trying to tell me about myself. As you just stated, YOU quoted me in this thread knowing full well the direction we go in when we discuss these things. I only get pissed off when people say ignorant things, you're no exception. I just find it hugely amusing how you play the victim when 9/10 you're the one that quotes me! You say I have a vendetta against you but you're the one who begins the discussion directly with me. You say things you must know I will disagree with because we've had this conversation of me. And if I ignored you, you'd accuse me of "bailing" on you because you made arguments that I apparently can't respond to. Make. Up. Your. F*cking. Mind.

I've already made the reasons I took issue with you in this thread very clear. If you really need me to repeat then you bear more prejudice than I thought as you think it's that insignificant. You haven't accepted anything I've said as you accused me of being sexist at the beginning of this very post, so where exactly is this "courtesy" that you speak of? No I don't think you're on Trump territory and I didn't say that. Once again your comprehension skills fail you. And I'll repeat again incase you choose to ignore for a third time; I don't think you're so simply a "racist".

July 19, 2016

31 minutes ago, Harry said:

Okay, well... I've merely said that you and some others have some racism under the surface that you may not realise until someone points it out to you. Because racism is very much an invisible problem and people think you're just being too sensitive when you bring it up, despite the fact that you know it's real and wonder why no one else can see it too. But I never flat out called anyone racist or anti black. I shy away from extremes unless there's evidence beyond all doubt. Because ignorance and prejudice come before the most extreme examples.

I can literally say the same back to you on this subject from my point of view. Okay, yeah I did flat out call you a racist but I already admitted in my last post that it was a bit extreme (even though you chose to misinterpret that here anyway, but oh well).

Well for starters it's not my fault if I'm influential. What do you want me to do, stop posting? You'd probably love it if I did but there's absolutely no reason I should be quiet about this. I haven't gone around whispering about you to anyone. If my posts bring attention to problematic things you say that other people pick up on, then it should ring alarm bells for you. Not for me. To me it just sounds like you're trying to bounce off any criticism towards you as illegitimate because you think you're perfect. When I criticise you, none of it's valid because I'm a nasty person who's just trying to drag you down. When people agree with me, it's because I've "planted seeds" and they couldn't possibly have their own opinion that has nothing to do with me. I'm not special and neither are you, and I think it's pretty rude of you to imply that people on this site are too dumb to make up their own minds about what you say. Though admittedly flattering that you think they'd give a **** about what I say to that degree...

I love how the bulk of your arguments to me are about "you don't know me!!!" "why don't you see the real me!!!" but then you constantly tell me about my own gains and psychology. "..in the hopes of pushing my buttons and making me defend myself" "you're talking in Americanisms in the hope of making Americans see what you've written and agree with you because they understand the political references". All bullsh*t. No offence to Americans here but why the hell would I want them specifically to agree with me? Wonderful if they do but certainly not a goal of mine to get anyone on my back. What a weird thing to say. My concern here is about calling out your prejudices and ignorance (which you're still trying to swerve away from, by the way), not a popularity contest. Seems to be very much on your mind, though. Funny that.

Sounds to me like you're just generalising Americans. Won't delve into that though as it'll drive us even further off topic, and I imagine you'll accuse me of pandering to them again. I don't understand your point of view because it's intolerant. Please don't label us as the same because we are not and I so badly don't want to be associated with you.

"racism is harder to prove when there's not name calling and you have to start looking deeper to find out the truth" well that I certainly do agree with and would actually apply to this conversation.

Are you actually stupid? I'm struggling now because I thought you were smart. I said you ARE NOT a full blown racist. Please re-read that part of what I said. "I take big offence at the fact that you just ignored the first 2 possibilities and jumped straight to level 3 with me" ... I literally said that I don't think you're a racist but you hold certain racial prejudices. Read what I say before you even think about trying to make me look bad.

You're making it sound like we have had nothing but pleasant conversations in PMs but I could quit easily prove that is an enormous lie. In fact the worst has probably occurred over PM. Again, you're trying to tell me about myself. As you just stated, YOU quoted me in this thread knowing full well the direction we go in when we discuss these things. I only get pissed off when people say ignorant things, you're no exception. I just find it hugely amusing how you play the victim when 9/10 you're the one that quotes me! You say I have a vendetta against you but you're the one who begins the discussion directly with me. You say things you must know I will disagree with because we've had this conversation of me. And if I ignored you, you'd accuse me of "bailing" on you because you made arguments that I apparently can't respond to. Make. Up. Your. F*cking. Mind.

I've already made the reasons I took issue with you in this thread very clear. If you really need me to repeat then you bear more prejudice than I thought as you think it's that insignificant. You haven't accepted anything I've said as you accused me of being sexist at the beginning of this very post, so where exactly is this "courtesy" that you speak of? No I don't think you're on Trump territory and I didn't say that. Once again your comprehension skills fail you. And I'll repeat again incase you choose to ignore for a third time; I don't think you're so simply a "racist".

I know what you're saying with that reverse paragraph. But in that case, do you think my sexism accusations were valid, then? But you undercut it when you said that you didn't flat out call me racist when you did and you most certainly do go to extremes. But no matter. You do admit that calling me a racist went too far, though? And I didn't misinterpret anything, actually.

Ok, you call me pompous and then say "it's not my fault I'm influential"? That's Gretchen from Mean Girls territory there. No, I'm not asking you to stop posting, just not to be shady and imply stuff and spread lies about me. I don't do it to you, why do you do it to me? You don't go around whispering (well, I'll take your word for that) about me, but you do publicaly imply and outright state bad things about me that people can read. Well, I've always been self-critical and I can conclude that most of the time, it's other people that's the problem, not me (though I have apologised on occasion for being overly rude to certain people). You should learn to be more self-critical about your own posts and realise how rude they can sound. I'm not the first person to complain about your behaviour, that should ring alarm bells for you. No, I don't think I'm perfect, not at all. I can assure you that you're completely wrong on that one. I've been very honest about my flaws. Trying to defend yourself and thinking you're perfect aren't the same thing. Your criticisms towards me are hardly ever phrased peacefully or respectfully, they're nearly always unnecessarily nasty, even when I said something completely neutral and didn't bring you down at all. I think people can indeed have their own opinion and I'm by no means saying that they're stupid but we sometimes lose sight of the way people around us influence us. If someone claims that someone else is a racist, you'll automatically become wary of that person and keep an eye on them, right? Little seeds of doubt is all it takes. And yes, you should take it as a compliment that I think people care about what you say to that degree. Don't underestimate how much presence you have on this forum. If you put down someone, it'll spread. And I'm willing to bet the people who see it don't see your follow up of "Ok, I don't actually think you're a full-blown racist."

Because the things you say are so obvious and then you tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Saying shady things about me publicly, heavily implying that it's me you're talking about is a deliberate aim to bait me into responding to you. I usually fall for it because that's just my personality, I just don't like people thinking that I'm too stupid to miss their shade or I'm too cowardly to respond to it. I think you're wanting Americans specifically to agree with you because there's a lot of them on this site, so you can get a lot of them on side by using Americanisms and so anyone reading your post addressed to me will understand your accusations. I'm trying to "swerve away from" my "prejudices and ignorance" because I don't have any, no matter what you might think. I don't know how much evidence I have to post to persuade you otherwise. You'd be better off adding me as somone to follow on GGD so you can see all the anti-racism stuff I post about that you clearly miss. I mean, have you seen the way I've defended the people who Azealia Banks has racially abused in the past?

No, I'm not generalising Americans, I'm trying to post examples of the things Brits and Americans differ, so there's tension there because of a cultural difference. So, you should understand where I'm coming from when I challenge a part of their culture, but instead you call BS on it. Seeing as I can discuss with fellow Brits the issues I just spoke about (guns, creationism, lack of geographical knowledge) without any bother whatsoever plus agreement, I find it very weird that as a Brit, you don't see where I'm coming from when I'm criticising a part of American culture. It's not about being the same as in personality, but being the same as in both having the same British culture and approaching subjects as Brits.

Now you're just taking my quote out of context and trying to apply it to me. Classy. Surely the fact that I said this quote is proof that I'm not as ignorant and prejudiced as you think?

Yes, I gather you've said a few times now that you take back your statement that I'm a racist, but you're still saying that I'm ignorant and prejudiced. It's that part of your view that I'm still determined to break. You have me completely wrong and dislike me because of a wrong impression and that is a major sore point with me. I don't like it when people get the wrong impression of me, I find it very upsetting actually. You know I have paranoia and social anxiety, right? False impressions really get to me because of it.

No, we did have unpleasant PM convos but I'm talking about the most recent one that you still haven't replied to (and I'm really anticipating your response to it). We're really making progress there and I want it to continue and I don't want this setback to put us back to square one and abandon a perfectly good conversation about something that means a lot to me. Yes, I did begin all this, I know. I just didn't think it would kick off as badly as it did. But as always, I misjudge it. I've accused you of bailing on me before because it's usually when I hit my stride with really good arguments (that I spend a lot of time thinking of and typing) for you just to abandon me with a one line goodbye message, therefore wasting all my time. It gives me the impression (note I said impression, I didn't say this is fact) that you don't like it when I show you arguments that prove that you got me wrong and just want to continue disliking me because you won't give up your first impression of me. I've tried and tried to find the good in you. I wish you would do the same for me.

No, I don't need you to repeat. All I can do at this point is give you a never ending list of evidence as to why I'm not ignorant or prejudiced. I didn't call you sexist at the beginning of the post, I said that (and I don't know if you still hold these views seeing as we haven't spoken about them in a while) you hold views that you don't realise are a bit ignorant in regards to womens struggles. That's it. I have never flat out called you sexist. EVER. I'm accusing you of what you are accusing me of right now - ignorance. Not that I don't think that will ever change, but certainly you've said enough that makes me think you don't understand feminism as well as you claim. And as a woman, you must think I have a right to say that due to you apparently supporting women's rights so much and that we know our struggle better than anyone else? I've already explained what this courtesy is but I'll say it again. The courtesy I'm speaking of is "if you accuse me of something but I passionately claim that I'm not what you think, you should accept what I say and believe me and apologise." That's what I did when I accused you of that stuff that you interpreted as homophobic. You defended yourself and said how offended you were by what I said. I accepted your explanation and apologised, admitting I got you wrong. And I had to keep on apologising and it took you a long time to come around. So, why won't you pay me the same courtesy after offending and upsetting me by calling me ignorant and prejudiced? Why won't you believe my claims to the contrary, accept them and apologise to me? Why is it one rule for me and a different rule for you? If you don't think I'm on Trump territory why did you say I came across like a fan of him? I don't think that's failed comprehension skills. And I know you don't think I'm simply a "racist." But you do still still think I'm ignorant and prejudiced and I'm trying desperately to make you see otherwise.

July 20, 2016

15 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I know what you're saying with that reverse paragraph. But in that case, do you think my sexism accusations were valid, then? But you undercut it when you said that you didn't flat out call me racist when you did and you most certainly do go to extremes. But no matter. You do admit that calling me a racist went too far, though? And I didn't misinterpret anything, actually.

Ok, you call me pompous and then say "it's not my fault I'm influential"? That's Gretchen from Mean Girls territory there. No, I'm not asking you to stop posting, just not to be shady and imply stuff and spread lies about me. I don't do it to you, why do you do it to me? You don't go around whispering (well, I'll take your word for that) about me, but you do publicaly imply and outright state bad things about me that people can read. Well, I've always been self-critical and I can conclude that most of the time, it's other people that's the problem, not me (though I have apologised on occasion for being overly rude to certain people). You should learn to be more self-critical about your own posts and realise how rude they can sound. I'm not the first person to complain about your behaviour, that should ring alarm bells for you. No, I don't think I'm perfect, not at all. I can assure you that you're completely wrong on that one. I've been very honest about my flaws. Trying to defend yourself and thinking you're perfect aren't the same thing. Your criticisms towards me are hardly ever phrased peacefully or respectfully, they're nearly always unnecessarily nasty, even when I said something completely neutral and didn't bring you down at all. I think people can indeed have their own opinion and I'm by no means saying that they're stupid but we sometimes lose sight of the way people around us influence us. If someone claims that someone else is a racist, you'll automatically become wary of that person and keep an eye on them, right? Little seeds of doubt is all it takes. And yes, you should take it as a compliment that I think people care about what you say to that degree. Don't underestimate how much presence you have on this forum. If you put down someone, it'll spread. And I'm willing to bet the people who see it don't see your follow up of "Ok, I don't actually think you're a full-blown racist."

Because the things you say are so obvious and then you tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Saying shady things about me publicly, heavily implying that it's me you're talking about is a deliberate aim to bait me into responding to you. I usually fall for it because that's just my personality, I just don't like people thinking that I'm too stupid to miss their shade or I'm too cowardly to respond to it. I think you're wanting Americans specifically to agree with you because there's a lot of them on this site, so you can get a lot of them on side by using Americanisms and so anyone reading your post addressed to me will understand your accusations. I'm trying to "swerve away from" my "prejudices and ignorance" because I don't have any, no matter what you might think. I don't know how much evidence I have to post to persuade you otherwise. You'd be better off adding me as somone to follow on GGD so you can see all the anti-racism stuff I post about that you clearly miss. I mean, have you seen the way I've defended the people who Azealia Banks has racially abused in the past?

No, I'm not generalising Americans, I'm trying to post examples of the things Brits and Americans differ, so there's tension there because of a cultural difference. So, you should understand where I'm coming from when I challenge a part of their culture, but instead you call BS on it. Seeing as I can discuss with fellow Brits the issues I just spoke about (guns, creationism, lack of geographical knowledge) without any bother whatsoever plus agreement, I find it very weird that as a Brit, you don't see where I'm coming from when I'm criticising a part of American culture. It's not about being the same as in personality, but being the same as in both having the same British culture and approaching subjects as Brits.

Now you're just taking my quote out of context and trying to apply it to me. Classy. Surely the fact that I said this quote is proof that I'm not as ignorant and prejudiced as you think?

Yes, I gather you've said a few times now that you take back your statement that I'm a racist, but you're still saying that I'm ignorant and prejudiced. It's that part of your view that I'm still determined to break. You have me completely wrong and dislike me because of a wrong impression and that is a major sore point with me. I don't like it when people get the wrong impression of me, I find it very upsetting actually. You know I have paranoia and social anxiety, right? False impressions really get to me because of it.

No, we did have unpleasant PM convos but I'm talking about the most recent one that you still haven't replied to (and I'm really anticipating your response to it). We're really making progress there and I want it to continue and I don't want this setback to put us back to square one and abandon a perfectly good conversation about something that means a lot to me. Yes, I did begin all this, I know. I just didn't think it would kick off as badly as it did. But as always, I misjudge it. I've accused you of bailing on me before because it's usually when I hit my stride with really good arguments (that I spend a lot of time thinking of and typing) for you just to abandon me with a one line goodbye message, therefore wasting all my time. It gives me the impression (note I said impression, I didn't say this is fact) that you don't like it when I show you arguments that prove that you got me wrong and just want to continue disliking me because you won't give up your first impression of me. I've tried and tried to find the good in you. I wish you would do the same for me.

No, I don't need you to repeat. All I can do at this point is give you a never ending list of evidence as to why I'm not ignorant or prejudiced. I didn't call you sexist at the beginning of the post, I said that (and I don't know if you still hold these views seeing as we haven't spoken about them in a while) you hold views that you don't realise are a bit ignorant in regards to womens struggles. That's it. I have never flat out called you sexist. EVER. I'm accusing you of what you are accusing me of right now - ignorance. Not that I don't think that will ever change, but certainly you've said enough that makes me think you don't understand feminism as well as you claim. And as a woman, you must think I have a right to say that due to you apparently supporting women's rights so much and that we know our struggle better than anyone else? I've already explained what this courtesy is but I'll say it again. The courtesy I'm speaking of is "if you accuse me of something but I passionately claim that I'm not what you think, you should accept what I say and believe me and apologise." That's what I did when I accused you of that stuff that you interpreted as homophobic. You defended yourself and said how offended you were by what I said. I accepted your explanation and apologised, admitting I got you wrong. And I had to keep on apologising and it took you a long time to come around. So, why won't you pay me the same courtesy after offending and upsetting me by calling me ignorant and prejudiced? Why won't you believe my claims to the contrary, accept them and apologise to me? Why is it one rule for me and a different rule for you? If you don't think I'm on Trump territory why did you say I came across like a fan of him? I don't think that's failed comprehension skills. And I know you don't think I'm simply a "racist." But you do still still think I'm ignorant and prejudiced and I'm trying desperately to make you see otherwise.

No I don’t think the specific accusations you made against me were valid. However, yes, I do think we all hold the potential to have subliminal prejudices that we aren’t aware of on a surface level. Yes I admit that calling you racist was a bit of a stretch, as I’ve said probably four times now. What is it with you and making me repeat myself? You spend enough time filling your post with irrelevant nonsense, it might be an idea to spend a little more reading the posts by people you’re talking to as well.

Are you actually serious with that point? I can’t tell because that’s wildly stupid. YOU are the one that said I don’t know how much influence I have, and I refuted that claim. The quote by me was not “It’s not my fault I’m influential”. How dare you so blatantly misquote me. I said IF - a hypothetical response to something that YOU were saying about me. How manipulative of you. Not gonna work. ACTUAL quotes from me - not lies - “I’m not special”, “…flattering that you think they’d give a **** about what I say”, “I certainly don’t have any kind of “influence that would make it so.” How dare you blatantly lie and misquote me to make me look bad. I made it very clear what I meant by that and I find it hilarious that you say that then accuse me of being shady and spreading lies in the next sentence. Massively low and laughable, even for you. Gretchen territory from me? Borderline illiterate and moronic territory for you. An actual word-for-word pompous quote from you there, though: “I can conclude that most of the time, it's other people that's the problem, not me”. Seriously?

I’ve always admitted when I’ve come across harsh. Anyone who knows me on this site knows that I’m very aware of how I come across and that I do occasionally become more hostile than I should. I’ve never been afraid of admitting that and apologise when I overstep the mark… I’ve even apologised to you and acknowledged when I’ve said something wrong - in this actual conversation for goodness sake. So once again, telling me what I “should” do, you can get out of here with that nonsense trash. Most of the people that harbour grudges against me I don’t care about because they aren’t worth it. I’ve had run-ins with people on here that I respect and have made amends with, but some people I simply don’t gel with. They have their opinion about me that I know I can’t change, but I definitely won’t lose sleep over it. Pretty sure you fall into that category.

Well if you’re that naive and easily swayed that you’d take someone else’s word for granted without having inspected the evidence for yourself, then that’s on you. Speak for yourself. Not everyone is that easy.

Lol obviously you’d use Azealia Banks as an example. Of course you’d criticise a black woman for obvious unacceptable languages but withhold your outrage - and even excuse - the racist murders by white cops. Obviously.

I have problems with attitudes towards race in general. Including yours. I don’t see it as American VS British. I’m not exactly an expert… I’m a white man. I’m doing my best to educate myself properly on the struggles faced by people of colour. Ignorance is a choice and prejudice isn’t different in different countries. I have problems with how some Americans handle it and I have problems with how some Brits handle it - like you. I don’t subscribe to a way of thinking just because of where I’m from. Like I said, I have my own viewpoint and my own set of morals, and I apply them to racism in all instances, whatever the country. Maybe you don’t have the ability to form your own set of standards and have had them fed to you - actually it’s pretty obvious that you have - but don’t assume I’m the same. I’m challenging myself to face up to a lot of things that are happening and I would recommend others do it too.

Again all I hear is that you want me to see you differently but I’m not gonna just take your word for it. I do still think you have prejudices in certain areas - as I’ve seen in this and a few other threads - but not in others. Also as someone who has battled with mental health I find it pretty gross that you’d bring up your paranoia and anxiety in an attempt to make me feel bad about disagreeing with you. How dare you play that card after trying to pull something as manipulative as your Gretchen comparison? But I don't wish to expand on that at all because it won't end well.

Whenever I’ve “bailed” on you it’s mostly because I’ve had enough of repeating myself. Based on the amount of back and forth we’ve have I think it’s interesting that you honestly think I’d back off because I don’t know what to say… We clearly both have a lot to say. I don’t hold grudges, as I’ve already said. Most of my dislike for you comes from that personal judgement you made against me and the way you try to manipulate what I say then play the victim. Sure your views on certain things rub me the wrong way, but I can separate that from personal feelings and it doesn’t factor into it that much. Although admittedly it does a little. So that wouldn’t make a difference to me. I don’t think you’re a bad person, and I think you do mean well with most things.

I don’t think what I’m guilty of is ignorance, especially as I’ve made such an effort to be educated on feminism. Just because you don’t agree with my perception of it, doesn’t mean I’m ignorant. I’ve had conversations with women (in real life and online) who have praised me for “getting it”. Yes I can never understand that struggle but I don’t know where you’ve seen my ignorance, especially when I have never said anything derogatory to or about women. Whereas you were saying a married mother in her 40s should be ashamed of flaunting her body and sexuality. You’ve said women should cover up if they don’t want to be raped. I wouldn’t dream of saying these things. I know that as a man I will not ever understand the true struggle of women, but in my goals to educate myself on feminism I do not seek the advice of someone who holds those opinions.

The difference between that homophobic incident - and I didn’t “interpret” it as jack sh*t, it WAS homophobic - and this incident is that you pulled that on me out of the blue. There was no evidence for your outrageous and offensive comment. You could’ve criticised my views on feminism but you instead resorted to my sexuality to dismiss what I had to say. I shouldn’t have had to defend myself in that situation because it was an attack, therefore shouldn’t have happened in the first place.

Here, you offered your thoughts directly into the conversation by quoting me. Saying that if these black people complied maybe they would be alive - criticising and blaming the actions of obvious victims rather than those who are actually responsible. Saying that blacks should “respect themselves and their community” to avoid being killed, using the “black-on-black crime” buzzphrase as aw ay to cover up the tracks of those responsible yet again, ignoring the fact that all races - including whites - are responsible for the most murders of their own. Yet none of those races are killed at the hands of police as frequently as black people. Saying that it’s down to guns and not racism, that all the victims were armed and dangerous when they were killed which is just a lie. All of these things I consider ignorant and prejudice, and you insisting “but I’m not prejudice!!!” doesn’t cancel out those things you said.

I don’t think I have the “wrong impression” of you. I think I have my own valid opinion of you and the things you’ve said and you just don’t like facing that criticism.

July 20, 2016

Since I noticed some members don't understand the experience, I would like to put in my two cents by listing some experiences that I have seen in my loved ones, some with police and some without.

My dad:
- Accused by police of being a drug dealer while picking up my uncle for their mother's funeral, dressed up and everything.
- Accused by police of stealing his own car while washing it outside of our house, who then held him up against the car even though his name, license, and registration matched.
- Denied service at a hotel in Florida regardless of the very obvious unoccupied rooms/parking lot/etc.
- Driving in Texas and asked a cop for directions, who then told him 'boy, you'd best turn around and get right out of this town'. My dad has never gone back to Texas since.
- Had to verify his identify to pick my sister and I up from school because his parentage was 'questionable', even with the same last name, and regardless of the fact that he was our primary parent, our emergency contact, and drove us daily. All of our teachers knew him more than they knew my mom. What the actual ****?

My gym buddy was held at gunpoint by police while walking to school. He was wearing his college shirt, bookbag, shorts, and sandals. He was texting while walking. The cop said, 'sorry, wrong guy' and left.

Blacks are perceived so negatively in the US and, even if you don't count police statistics, the different treatment has to stop.

July 20, 2016

5 hours ago, Harry said:

No I don’t think the specific accusations you made against me were valid. However, yes, I do think we all hold the potential to have subliminal prejudices that we aren’t aware of on a surface level. Yes I admit that calling you racist was a bit of a stretch, as I’ve said probably four times now. What is it with you and making me repeat myself? You spend enough time filling your post with irrelevant nonsense, it might be an idea to spend a little more reading the posts by people you’re talking to as well.

Are you actually serious with that point? I can’t tell because that’s wildly stupid. YOU are the one that said I don’t know how much influence I have, and I refuted that claim. The quote by me was not “It’s not my fault I’m influential”. How dare you so blatantly misquote me. I said IF - a hypothetical response to something that YOU were saying about me. How manipulative of you. Not gonna work. ACTUAL quotes from me - not lies - “I’m not special”, “…flattering that you think they’d give a **** about what I say”, “I certainly don’t have any kind of “influence that would make it so.” How dare you blatantly lie and misquote me to make me look bad. I made it very clear what I meant by that and I find it hilarious that you say that then accuse me of being shady and spreading lies in the next sentence. Massively low and laughable, even for you. Gretchen territory from me? Borderline illiterate and moronic territory for you. An actual word-for-word pompous quote from you there, though: “I can conclude that most of the time, it's other people that's the problem, not me”. Seriously?

I’ve always admitted when I’ve come across harsh. Anyone who knows me on this site knows that I’m very aware of how I come across and that I do occasionally become more hostile than I should. I’ve never been afraid of admitting that and apologise when I overstep the mark… I’ve even apologised to you and acknowledged when I’ve said something wrong - in this actual conversation for goodness sake. So once again, telling me what I “should” do, you can get out of here with that nonsense trash. Most of the people that harbour grudges against me I don’t care about because they aren’t worth it. I’ve had run-ins with people on here that I respect and have made amends with, but some people I simply don’t gel with. They have their opinion about me that I know I can’t change, but I definitely won’t lose sleep over it. Pretty sure you fall into that category.

Well if you’re that naive and easily swayed that you’d take someone else’s word for granted without having inspected the evidence for yourself, then that’s on you. Speak for yourself. Not everyone is that easy.

Lol obviously you’d use Azealia Banks as an example. Of course you’d criticise a black woman for obvious unacceptable languages but withhold your outrage - and even excuse - the racist murders by white cops. Obviously.

I have problems with attitudes towards race in general. Including yours. I don’t see it as American VS British. I’m not exactly an expert… I’m a white man. I’m doing my best to educate myself properly on the struggles faced by people of colour. Ignorance is a choice and prejudice isn’t different in different countries. I have problems with how some Americans handle it and I have problems with how some Brits handle it - like you. I don’t subscribe to a way of thinking just because of where I’m from. Like I said, I have my own viewpoint and my own set of morals, and I apply them to racism in all instances, whatever the country. Maybe you don’t have the ability to form your own set of standards and have had them fed to you - actually it’s pretty obvious that you have - but don’t assume I’m the same. I’m challenging myself to face up to a lot of things that are happening and I would recommend others do it too.

Again all I hear is that you want me to see you differently but I’m not gonna just take your word for it. I do still think you have prejudices in certain areas - as I’ve seen in this and a few other threads - but not in others. Also as someone who has battled with mental health I find it pretty gross that you’d bring up your paranoia and anxiety in an attempt to make me feel bad about disagreeing with you. How dare you play that card after trying to pull something as manipulative as your Gretchen comparison? But I don't wish to expand on that at all because it won't end well.

Whenever I’ve “bailed” on you it’s mostly because I’ve had enough of repeating myself. Based on the amount of back and forth we’ve have I think it’s interesting that you honestly think I’d back off because I don’t know what to say… We clearly both have a lot to say. I don’t hold grudges, as I’ve already said. Most of my dislike for you comes from that personal judgement you made against me and the way you try to manipulate what I say then play the victim. Sure your views on certain things rub me the wrong way, but I can separate that from personal feelings and it doesn’t factor into it that much. Although admittedly it does a little. So that wouldn’t make a difference to me. I don’t think you’re a bad person, and I think you do mean well with most things.

I don’t think what I’m guilty of is ignorance, especially as I’ve made such an effort to be educated on feminism. Just because you don’t agree with my perception of it, doesn’t mean I’m ignorant. I’ve had conversations with women (in real life and online) who have praised me for “getting it”. Yes I can never understand that struggle but I don’t know where you’ve seen my ignorance, especially when I have never said anything derogatory to or about women. Whereas you were saying a married mother in her 40s should be ashamed of flaunting her body and sexuality. You’ve said women should cover up if they don’t want to be raped. I wouldn’t dream of saying these things. I know that as a man I will not ever understand the true struggle of women, but in my goals to educate myself on feminism I do not seek the advice of someone who holds those opinions.

The difference between that homophobic incident - and I didn’t “interpret” it as jack sh*t, it WAS homophobic - and this incident is that you pulled that on me out of the blue. There was no evidence for your outrageous and offensive comment. You could’ve criticised my views on feminism but you instead resorted to my sexuality to dismiss what I had to say. I shouldn’t have had to defend myself in that situation because it was an attack, therefore shouldn’t have happened in the first place.

Here, you offered your thoughts directly into the conversation by quoting me. Saying that if these black people complied maybe they would be alive - criticising and blaming the actions of obvious victims rather than those who are actually responsible. Saying that blacks should “respect themselves and their community” to avoid being killed, using the “black-on-black crime” buzzphrase as aw ay to cover up the tracks of those responsible yet again, ignoring the fact that all races - including whites - are responsible for the most murders of their own. Yet none of those races are killed at the hands of police as frequently as black people. Saying that it’s down to guns and not racism, that all the victims were armed and dangerous when they were killed which is just a lie. All of these things I consider ignorant and prejudice, and you insisting “but I’m not prejudice!!!” doesn’t cancel out those things you said.

I don’t think I have the “wrong impression” of you. I think I have my own valid opinion of you and the things you’ve said and you just don’t like facing that criticism.

Well, if you think you're within your rights to refute claims of minor moments of sexism made by a female, do you think I'm also within my rights to refute claims of minor moments of racism made by another white person? I can take your opinion a bit better if you at least think I have a right to challenge it because it might not be true. Believe me, I don't think I'm a perfect person who harbours no dislike. I have certain prejudices, yes, but not ones connected to race, gender or sexual orientation. There's lots of ways we can be prejudiced and I'm flawed like anyone else but honestly, I have no prejudice within these 3 sub-sections. That doesn't mean that I don't criticise these groups if I think there's a just reason for it (all the while making it clear that I don't think everyone from this group is like that) but I don't have any hatred towards these groups or harbour any stereotypes or prejudice or hatred for them. And I know you're taking back the racist accusation and no, you don't have to keep repeating yourself. I just pointed out that you included the racist accusation when you reversed what I originally said and that you should have left it out. That's all. And I tend to see it more as you who's making me repeat myself but I think we've always accused each other of the same sins, right? I do read your posts intently, you don't realise that sometimes, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they've skimmed over what you're said or haven't read it correctly.

I didn't misquote you, I read something into it that you perhaps didn't mean, that's all. The inclusion of the word "if" didn't change anything about the sentence for me. Surely you can see why I thought what I did? I'm not trying to be manipulative, I thought you meant one thing when you really meant another. Simple. I don't deliberately lie and misquote because I know you always get found out if you do that, so no, that's not what I intended. Just be aware that things are not always as clear as you make them out to be (I get that all the time too, you're not alone) and it doesn't have to mean that you're borderline illiterate or moronic to get it. I said that quote about "it's everyone else with the problem, not me" because every time I get hate thrown at me, I've never been outright mean to anyone or said anything out of line. I read through what I said and can't find anything objectionable in it, a lot of the time, people simply can't handle a different opinion. Then they start shouting, swearing and calling me names when I did nothing to them and don't retaliate in that way either. Again, another reason to make me believe that they're just touchy and rude.

I do realise that you've been self-aware. And I do acknowledge that you've apologised to me. I appreciate that you've been real about this. Nothing more to say there.

I didn't say that I was one of those naive and easily swayed people, I was talking about others.

Yes, I use Azealia as an example because she's definitely a racist and she's the only overt racist in the industry right now. It's not because she's a black woman saying it that gets me more annoyed (although racism towards her own race is very weird and unacceptable), it's because I find her racism offensive. She said that she didn't date black men because they don't know how to treat women. She told a black girl to bleach her skin and go pick cotton. She called Zayn Malik a sand n****r. That's offensive no matter who's saying it. Saying that I got uber offended by it because she's black is exactly the kind of assuming about me you do that I cannot stand. And for the last time, I'm not excusing the white cops and I am outraged by what they do. Just because I choose to analyse the situation afterwards doesn't mean I support them.

All I'm saying is that surely you can understand the viewpoint of someone coming from your culture and know when they're being malicious or when they just mean well? Well, just like you, I also have my own viewpoint and morals and I apply it to racism in all instances, whatever the country. I find it funny though, that you claim this, when you've said before that we've got to switch our way of thinking when we're talking about an American issue. And I do have my own set of standards, actually, and I'm always the one saying that we need to forget what viewpoint the media's feeding us and look at the truth through un-biased eyes and then base your opinion on that. and I most certainly can face up to things that are happening, they're just different to yours.

I don't expect you to just my word for it. But I do wish you'd take into account my long list of reasons why I'm not racist instead of just saying that "this, this and this mean nothing to me." Because then it just seems like I can't win and nothing I say will be good enough evidence for you. And like I said before, I admit to having prejudices, just not in the race, gender and sexual orientation realms. And no, I wasn't trying to make you feel guilt tripped, I was alerting you to something about me that you might not be aware of. I wanted to make you realise that my annoyance at your comments towards me wasn't me just being a silly, childish brat who didn't like being told the truth...but rather, I have a serious reason for feeling defensive when people get the wrong idea about me. I had enough malicious rumours about me spread in high school. I don't want it online as well.

You don't think I get sick of repeating myself as well? I think you do well with all our back and forths, but I notice that you have a habit of abandoning me just as I've made my best argument that I hoped was going to convince you. It's like you don't want to keep on arguing for fear of being made to look like I've got the upper hand or I've made you realise that your perception of me was wrong. Like you just want to keep thinking of me as horrible because you don't like to go back on your first impression. From the way you imply things about me in some of your posts, I think it shows that you do hold a bit of a grudge. I gather that a lot of your dislike for me comes from perceived judgement I made against you but please understand that that's what it was, perceived. It was a genuine theory that I asked you about and you denied it and I accepted and apologised. I hope we'll get past it completely one day. Neither do I manipulate what you say, I just call it as I personally see it and I don't make myself out to be the victim unless it's actually true. For someone who's against victim blaming, you sure do dismiss me for supposedly taking on a victim's attitude in certain situations and seem to pick and choose when someone is or isn't a victim. Well, I'm glad that you admit that your personal feelings towards me factor into things a little, no matter how minor. And I'm so pleased that you've admitted that I'm not a bad person and I do mean well most of the time. That's precisely how I want people to think of me. I never mean ill, I'm always looking for solutions to things and sometimes that gets seen as something more than it is when I'm just trying to help.

Well, I think the word "ignorant" is very harsh, so I try to avoid using it and I don't think you're ignorant on feminism, exactly, but I just think there's so many aspects of feminism that you've never considered. And for a feminist, you see women in a very simplistic way and seem to think they only have one reason and motivation behind everything they say and do (just my perception, I'm not saying it's a fact). While some women will agree with what you say about feminism, there are lots who will criticise you for it because we all think differently. And just because some members of an oppressed group agree with you doesn't mean what you've said is universally ok. Well, suffice to say, I have seen you say some derogatory things about women that you may not have even realised. But I don't think it's respectful to you to go into public detail about the ignorance I've seen you display but if you want to discuss it privately, we can. Now, please note that I never said a woman in her 40's should be ashamed of her sexuality or that a woman should cover up to avoid being raped (I've completely misinterpreted me on both counts, but that's another thing to be discussed privately). I wish you would pay proper attention to what I'm saying in regards to those things because you get the wrong conclusion from them so easily. Please carefully inspect what I'm saying and pay attention to the specific wording and realise if I didn't say something explicitly, then I didn't mean it.

Look, I admit that what I said was sprung on you and you were very offended by it. But please understand that in my perception, it seemed like there was evidence for it and it wasn't meant in a homophobic way (honestly, I was just referring to a select few members of the gay community who cause some trouble, which you admitted do exist). I can see why it might have been interpreted like that but it wasn't what I meant. But I admitted that I got you wrong and apologised. I really regret even taking it there in the first place because I realise that not only did I get you wrong but also, it permanently ruined your perception of me and by your own admission, made you lose respect for me, so it was like everything I said to you after that just wasn't good enough in your eyes. I've had to do a lot to rebuild things after that and I know you haven't properly forgiven me for it. I wasn't using your sexuality to dismiss your opinions on feminism, I was just pointing out that some gay men claim to be feminists when their behaviour to women says otherwise (you even admitted that there are gays like this). Surely you must realise this possibility creeped into my mind, however wrong it was? I just didn't have a clue why you hated me so much at that point despite me not doing anything to you, so my mind started going down the road less travelled to try to find a reason why. Criticising your views on feminism were getting me nowhere, so I had to look deeper at your character to try to find an answer which clearly ended in a stab in the dark. Once again, I admit I got it all wrong, I stepped out of line and misinterpreted things and I'm sorry I offended you and made you feel attacked. Truly, I am.

Note that I never said if "these black people" had complied, I was referring to anyone who'd ever been shot by a cop, regardless of race. I just think so many people react wrong in the heat of the moment and in the eyes of a lot of cops, they see it as a threatening action or an admission of guilt. I was thereby criticising the cops for taking this line as a reason to shoot. And that if better gun control was implemented, cops would maybe stop being so trigger happy because less people would seem like a threat to them and they'd have to find better ways of handling conflict than resorting to shooting. Does that make sense? I didn't say that blacks had to "respect themselves and their community to avoid being killed," but rather that if black on black crime was reduced, there would be less stereotyping of blacks and less black on black crimes for cops to be called to, thereby reducing the amount of black lives on the line. I'm not using the term as a buzzphrase, I also use "white on white" as well as its equivalent in other races. it's a standard piece of jargon and it's not to cover up anything. As I showed above, black on black crime and blacks being shot is interlinked because if cops are called to the scene of a black on black crime, there's multiple lives that could be lost but if there was no crime going on in the first place, there wouldn't be lives in danger and stereotypes would start to die out. I never ignored the fact that most murders go on within the murderer's race, I actually admitted that point outright, suggesting that it isn't the opposite race you need to be concerned about all the time. Hell, I'm more afraid of white people than anyone else and I'm white! Usually, the biggest threat is within our own communities (a significant proportion of victims of crimes know the perpetrator, after all). I never said racism is never to blame, I just say that it's too simplistic to say that's the ONLY reason. When white people get shot by cops, nobody says anything. But when a black person is shot by a cop, it's assumed to be racism. Don't you think there's a double standard there? Is the suggestion that there is always multiple reasons for a white person to be shot but if it's a black person, it's can be simplified as racism, case closed? Can't a cop just be an all-round horrible person who wants any excuse to shoot someone, of any race? There's usually multiple reasons behind everything we do. I say that I'm not prejudiced at the end of all this because saying that there could be more than one reason behind a choice seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

Oh, trust me, I can take criticism. I am very self critical. But I think I have a right to defend myself when I think someone has me wrong and I think they should do the respectful thing and really take my opinion into account.

4 hours ago, AyaKara said:

Since I noticed some members don't understand the experience, I would like to put in my two cents by listing some experiences that I have seen in my loved ones, some with police and some without.

My dad:
- Accused by police of being a drug dealer while picking up my uncle for their mother's funeral, dressed up and everything.
- Accused by police of stealing his own car while washing it outside of our house, who then held him up against the car even though his name, license, and registration matched.
- Denied service at a hotel in Florida regardless of the very obvious unoccupied rooms/parking lot/etc.
- Driving in Texas and asked a cop for directions, who then told him 'boy, you'd best turn around and get right out of this town'. My dad has never gone back to Texas since.
- Had to verify his identify to pick my sister and I up from school because his parentage was 'questionable', even with the same last name, and regardless of the fact that he was our primary parent, our emergency contact, and drove us daily. All of our teachers knew him more than they knew my mom. What the actual ****?

My gym buddy was held at gunpoint by police while walking to school. He was wearing his college shirt, bookbag, shorts, and sandals. He was texting while walking. The cop said, 'sorry, wrong guy' and left.

Blacks are perceived so negatively in the US and, even if you don't count police statistics, the different treatment has to stop.

I'm very sorry that those close to you have gone through those things. Please note that I'm not defending any of this stuff, no matter how I've criticised issues in this thread. What you are describing is 100% racism and I know what it is when I hear about it. I am simply criticising over-simplified responses to every blacks vs cops issue when there can be all manner of reasons behind these cops choices that actually could apply to any race. And police brutality towards all people is a massive issue. But yes, there is unquestionably negative perceptions of blacks in America and it has to be changed as there are plenty of cops who can take stereotypes to heart, especially if our culture justifies those stereotypes.

July 20, 2016

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Well, if you think you're within your rights to refute claims of minor moments of sexism made by a female, do you think I'm also within my rights to refute claims of minor moments of racism made by another white person? I can take your opinion a bit better if you at least think I have a right to challenge it because it might not be true. Believe me, I don't think I'm a perfect person who harbours no dislike. I have certain prejudices, yes, but not ones connected to race, gender or sexual orientation. There's lots of ways we can be prejudiced and I'm flawed like anyone else but honestly, I have no prejudice within these 3 sub-sections. That doesn't mean that I don't criticise these groups if I think there's a just reason for it (all the while making it clear that I don't think everyone from this group is like that) but I don't have any hatred towards these groups or harbour any stereotypes or prejudice or hatred for them. And I know you're taking back the racist accusation and no, you don't have to keep repeating yourself. I just pointed out that you included the racist accusation when you reversed what I originally said and that you should have left it out. That's all. And I tend to see it more as you who's making me repeat myself but I think we've always accused each other of the same sins, right? I do read your posts intently, you don't realise that sometimes, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they've skimmed over what you're said or haven't read it correctly.

I didn't misquote you, I read something into it that you perhaps didn't mean, that's all. The inclusion of the word "if" didn't change anything about the sentence for me. Surely you can see why I thought what I did? I'm not trying to be manipulative, I thought you meant one thing when you really meant another. Simple. I don't deliberately lie and misquote because I know you always get found out if you do that, so no, that's not what I intended. Just be aware that things are not always as clear as you make them out to be (I get that all the time too, you're not alone) and it doesn't have to mean that you're borderline illiterate or moronic to get it. I said that quote about "it's everyone else with the problem, not me" because every time I get hate thrown at me, I've never been outright mean to anyone or said anything out of line. I read through what I said and can't find anything objectionable in it, a lot of the time, people simply can't handle a different opinion. Then they start shouting, swearing and calling me names when I did nothing to them and don't retaliate in that way either. Again, another reason to make me believe that they're just touchy and rude.

I do realise that you've been self-aware. And I do acknowledge that you've apologised to me. I appreciate that you've been real about this. Nothing more to say there.

I didn't say that I was one of those naive and easily swayed people, I was talking about others.

Yes, I use Azealia as an example because she's definitely a racist and she's the only overt racist in the industry right now. It's not because she's a black woman saying it that gets me more annoyed (although racism towards her own race is very weird and unacceptable), it's because I find her racism offensive. She said that she didn't date black men because they don't know how to treat women. She told a black girl to bleach her skin and go pick cotton. She called Zayn Malik a sand n****r. That's offensive no matter who's saying it. Saying that I got uber offended by it because she's black is exactly the kind of assuming about me you do that I cannot stand. And for the last time, I'm not excusing the white cops and I am outraged by what they do. Just because I choose to analyse the situation afterwards doesn't mean I support them.

All I'm saying is that surely you can understand the viewpoint of someone coming from your culture and know when they're being malicious or when they just mean well? Well, just like you, I also have my own viewpoint and morals and I apply it to racism in all instances, whatever the country. I find it funny though, that you claim this, when you've said before that we've got to switch our way of thinking when we're talking about an American issue. And I do have my own set of standards, actually, and I'm always the one saying that we need to forget what viewpoint the media's feeding us and look at the truth through un-biased eyes and then base your opinion on that. and I most certainly can face up to things that are happening, they're just different to yours.

I don't expect you to just my word for it. But I do wish you'd take into account my long list of reasons why I'm not racist instead of just saying that "this, this and this mean nothing to me." Because then it just seems like I can't win and nothing I say will be good enough evidence for you. And like I said before, I admit to having prejudices, just not in the race, gender and sexual orientation realms. And no, I wasn't trying to make you feel guilt tripped, I was alerting you to something about me that you might not be aware of. I wanted to make you realise that my annoyance at your comments towards me wasn't me just being a silly, childish brat who didn't like being told the truth...but rather, I have a serious reason for feeling defensive when people get the wrong idea about me. I had enough malicious rumours about me spread in high school. I don't want it online as well.

You don't think I get sick of repeating myself as well? I think you do well with all our back and forths, but I notice that you have a habit of abandoning me just as I've made my best argument that I hoped was going to convince you. It's like you don't want to keep on arguing for fear of being made to look like I've got the upper hand or I've made you realise that your perception of me was wrong. Like you just want to keep thinking of me as horrible because you don't like to go back on your first impression. From the way you imply things about me in some of your posts, I think it shows that you do hold a bit of a grudge. I gather that a lot of your dislike for me comes from perceived judgement I made against you but please understand that that's what it was, perceived. It was a genuine theory that I asked you about and you denied it and I accepted and apologised. I hope we'll get past it completely one day. Neither do I manipulate what you say, I just call it as I personally see it and I don't make myself out to be the victim unless it's actually true. For someone who's against victim blaming, you sure do dismiss me for supposedly taking on a victim's attitude in certain situations and seem to pick and choose when someone is or isn't a victim. Well, I'm glad that you admit that your personal feelings towards me factor into things a little, no matter how minor. And I'm so pleased that you've admitted that I'm not a bad person and I do mean well most of the time. That's precisely how I want people to think of me. I never mean ill, I'm always looking for solutions to things and sometimes that gets seen as something more than it is when I'm just trying to help.

Well, I think the word "ignorant" is very harsh, so I try to avoid using it and I don't think you're ignorant on feminism, exactly, but I just think there's so many aspects of feminism that you've never considered. And for a feminist, you see women in a very simplistic way and seem to think they only have one reason and motivation behind everything they say and do (just my perception, I'm not saying it's a fact). While some women will agree with what you say about feminism, there are lots who will criticise you for it because we all think differently. And just because some members of an oppressed group agree with you doesn't mean what you've said is universally ok. Well, suffice to say, I have seen you say some derogatory things about women that you may not have even realised. But I don't think it's respectful to you to go into public detail about the ignorance I've seen you display but if you want to discuss it privately, we can. Now, please note that I never said a woman in her 40's should be ashamed of her sexuality or that a woman should cover up to avoid being raped (I've completely misinterpreted me on both counts, but that's another thing to be discussed privately). I wish you would pay proper attention to what I'm saying in regards to those things because you get the wrong conclusion from them so easily. Please carefully inspect what I'm saying and pay attention to the specific wording and realise if I didn't say something explicitly, then I didn't mean it.

Look, I admit that what I said was sprung on you and you were very offended by it. But please understand that in my perception, it seemed like there was evidence for it and it wasn't meant in a homophobic way (honestly, I was just referring to a select few members of the gay community who cause some trouble, which you admitted do exist). I can see why it might have been interpreted like that but it wasn't what I meant. But I admitted that I got you wrong and apologised. I really regret even taking it there in the first place because I realise that not only did I get you wrong but also, it permanently ruined your perception of me and by your own admission, made you lose respect for me, so it was like everything I said to you after that just wasn't good enough in your eyes. I've had to do a lot to rebuild things after that and I know you haven't properly forgiven me for it. I wasn't using your sexuality to dismiss your opinions on feminism, I was just pointing out that some gay men claim to be feminists when their behaviour to women says otherwise (you even admitted that there are gays like this). Surely you must realise this possibility creeped into my mind, however wrong it was? I just didn't have a clue why you hated me so much at that point despite me not doing anything to you, so my mind started going down the road less travelled to try to find a reason why. Criticising your views on feminism were getting me nowhere, so I had to look deeper at your character to try to find an answer which clearly ended in a stab in the dark. Once again, I admit I got it all wrong, I stepped out of line and misinterpreted things and I'm sorry I offended you and made you feel attacked. Truly, I am.

Note that I never said if "these black people" had complied, I was referring to anyone who'd ever been shot by a cop, regardless of race. I just think so many people react wrong in the heat of the moment and in the eyes of a lot of cops, they see it as a threatening action or an admission of guilt. I was thereby criticising the cops for taking this line as a reason to shoot. And that if better gun control was implemented, cops would maybe stop being so trigger happy because less people would seem like a threat to them and they'd have to find better ways of handling conflict than resorting to shooting. Does that make sense? I didn't say that blacks had to "respect themselves and their community to avoid being killed," but rather that if black on black crime was reduced, there would be less stereotyping of blacks and less black on black crimes for cops to be called to, thereby reducing the amount of black lives on the line. I'm not using the term as a buzzphrase, I also use "white on white" as well as its equivalent in other races. it's a standard piece of jargon and it's not to cover up anything. As I showed above, black on black crime and blacks being shot is interlinked because if cops are called to the scene of a black on black crime, there's multiple lives that could be lost but if there was no crime going on in the first place, there wouldn't be lives in danger and stereotypes would start to die out. I never ignored the fact that most murders go on within the murderer's race, I actually admitted that point outright, suggesting that it isn't the opposite race you need to be concerned about all the time. Hell, I'm more afraid of white people than anyone else and I'm white! Usually, the biggest threat is within our own communities (a significant proportion of victims of crimes know the perpetrator, after all). I never said racism is never to blame, I just say that it's too simplistic to say that's the ONLY reason. When white people get shot by cops, nobody says anything. But when a black person is shot by a cop, it's assumed to be racism. Don't you think there's a double standard there? Is the suggestion that there is always multiple reasons for a white person to be shot but if it's a black person, it's can be simplified as racism, case closed? Can't a cop just be an all-round horrible person who wants any excuse to shoot someone, of any race? There's usually multiple reasons behind everything we do. I say that I'm not prejudiced at the end of all this because saying that there could be more than one reason behind a choice seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

Oh, trust me, I can take criticism. I am very self critical. But I think I have a right to defend myself when I think someone has me wrong and I think they should do the respectful thing and really take my opinion into account.

Regarding your racial prejudices that I have mentioned, we clearly just disagree and I don't know what else to say. Nothing you say is making me think any less of it. I will literally just be repeating myself so I honestly don't know what to tell you about that.

And no, you did misquote me and you pulled it out of context. Don't try and wriggle out of it now that I've made a big deal out of it. You tried to paint me in a bad light and I'm not gonna accept that wishy-washy bullsh*t excuse. No way. I cannot see why you thought I did as YOU were the one who brought up my perceived "influence" and I was just responding to your point and phrasing, when I literally said on my other post about it:

On 7/19/2016 at 5:41 PM, Harry said:

I certainly don't have any kind of "influence"

And I even dismissed the idea in the same post that you compared me to a Mean Girls character. So either 1) you actually haven't read and comprehended my posts correctly despite insisting that you do, or 2) you're trying to manipulate and twist what I've said. You choose. I could believe either.

I never said Azealia hasn't made vile comments in the past so I don't need an essay on her wrongdoings. I'm up to date. Just thought it was interesting that of all people to criticise of racism in this particular discussion you chose to single out a black individual.

I've never said that we have to switch our way of thinking when we're talking about American issues. Wtf?

"But I do wish you'd take into account my long list of reasons why I'm not racist" - I swear to god if you make me repeat myself about this one more time... I don't f*cking get it. You've even said in this post that you know I don't think you're pure racist and you aren't trying to make me repeat it, so what the f*ck is this? Are you taking the piss? If you display such a blatant disregard for my posts one more time then I'm done.

"you see women in a very simplistic way and seem to think they only have one reason and motivation behind everything they say and do" simply wrong. In conversations with many people and even with you several times I've defended every woman's right to choose and be who they are without judgement in the same way a man can. To say I think of women as simplistic is a downright lie. For what it's worth I actually think women in general are a lot more interesting than men are, possibly through all their struggles and having a wider viewpoint. Obviously not applicable in all cases, but yeah, you're wrong on that massively. "just because some members of an oppressed group agree with you doesn't mean what you've said is universally ok" that's literally the exact point I was making. I know that it's a complicated subject and no one will think exactly the same as the next person. HOWEVER you seem to feel you have the authority to override all of that and tell me I'm flat out wrong and ignorant about feminism when, by your own admission, it's not as black and white as one person from that group "approving" your opinion. I'm very aware of that.

Yes I admitted that those kind of gay people exist but I'm not sure why you think it's exclusive to gays. Yes there are gay men that say problematic things about women but I can't comprehend why the sexuality has anything to do with it... It's a male problem in general. I think straights are worse actually, on the whole. I have seen gays say some gross things about women but I can't recall a time where I've seen rape/murder threats coming from them. No I didn't realise that it would creep into your mind which is why I was so shocked at the time and which is why I still can't really forgive you for it. You're upset that I was offended and that I called you out on it so heavily, that I called you out on saying something offensive. If I said "yeah ur right us fagz just can't be trusted with women issues lolz" you absolutely would not have given it a second thought. We certainly wouldn't still be discussing it now. And even though you've apologised many times, you're still trying to justify that comment - "surely you must realise...". No. Why must I? Why is it sure? I won't stand for any prejudice or intolerant views/pre-conceived ideas.

I know I said I wouldn't respond to any of the content of this post I found to be racially prejudice as I'd just be repeating myself, but this bit pissed me off. "black on black crime and blacks being shot is interlinked because if cops are called to the scene of a black on black crime, there's multiple lives that could be lost but if there was no crime going on in the first place, there wouldn't be lives in danger and stereotypes would start to die out" No. It. Isn't. Because if murders within a community (black on black, white on white etc) heightened the percentage of those races murdered by cops, then white people would be getting murdered by cops at the same frequency as blacks. But guess what? THEY AREN'T. It also sounds like you're implying that all of the innocent black people who have been shot recently were involved in black on black crimes which simply isn't true and I'm pretty sure you know that. What the hell do stereotypes have to do with it? There is honestly no logic in this point. You're well and truly scraping the barrel now.

Please answer this question plainly for me. No diversions, no extended paragraph. Just give me a simple answer. Why - proportionally to population - are black people almost four times more likely than white people to be killed by police officers in America?

July 21, 2016

51 minutes ago, Harry said:

Regarding your racial prejudices that I have mentioned, we clearly just disagree and I don't know what else to say. Nothing you say is making me think any less of it. I will literally just be repeating myself so I honestly don't know what to tell you about that.

And no, you did misquote me and you pulled it out of context. Don't try and wriggle out of it now that I've made a big deal out of it. You tried to paint me in a bad light and I'm not gonna accept that wishy-washy bullsh*t excuse. No way. I cannot see why you thought I did as YOU were the one who brought up my perceived "influence" and I was just responding to your point and phrasing, when I literally said on my other post about it:

And I even dismissed the idea in the same post that you compared me to a Mean Girls character. So either 1) you actually haven't read and comprehended my posts correctly despite insisting that you do, or 2) you're trying to manipulate and twist what I've said. You choose. I could believe either.

I never said Azealia hasn't made vile comments in the past so I don't need an essay on her wrongdoings. I'm up to date. Just thought it was interesting that of all people to criticise of racism in this particular discussion you chose to single out a black individual.

I've never said that we have to switch our way of thinking when we're talking about American issues. Wtf?

"But I do wish you'd take into account my long list of reasons why I'm not racist" - I swear to god if you make me repeat myself about this one more time... I don't f*cking get it. You've even said in this post that you know I don't think you're pure racist and you aren't trying to make me repeat it, so what the f*ck is this? Are you taking the piss? If you display such a blatant disregard for my posts one more time then I'm done.

"you see women in a very simplistic way and seem to think they only have one reason and motivation behind everything they say and do" simply wrong. In conversations with many people and even with you several times I've defended every woman's right to choose and be who they are without judgement in the same way a man can. To say I think of women as simplistic is a downright lie. For what it's worth I actually think women in general are a lot more interesting than men are, possibly through all their struggles and having a wider viewpoint. Obviously not applicable in all cases, but yeah, you're wrong on that massively. "just because some members of an oppressed group agree with you doesn't mean what you've said is universally ok" that's literally the exact point I was making. I know that it's a complicated subject and no one will think exactly the same as the next person. HOWEVER you seem to feel you have the authority to override all of that and tell me I'm flat out wrong and ignorant about feminism when, by your own admission, it's not as black and white as one person from that group "approving" your opinion. I'm very aware of that.

Yes I admitted that those kind of gay people exist but I'm not sure why you think it's exclusive to gays. Yes there are gay men that say problematic things about women but I can't comprehend why the sexuality has anything to do with it... It's a male problem in general. I think straights are worse actually, on the whole. I have seen gays say some gross things about women but I can't recall a time where I've seen rape/murder threats coming from them. No I didn't realise that it would creep into your mind which is why I was so shocked at the time and which is why I still can't really forgive you for it. You're upset that I was offended and that I called you out on it so heavily, that I called you out on saying something offensive. If I said "yeah ur right us fagz just can't be trusted with women issues lolz" you absolutely would not have given it a second thought. We certainly wouldn't still be discussing it now. And even though you've apologised many times, you're still trying to justify that comment - "surely you must realise...". No. Why must I? Why is it sure? I won't stand for any prejudice or intolerant views/pre-conceived ideas.

I know I said I wouldn't respond to any of the content of this post I found to be racially prejudice as I'd just be repeating myself, but this bit pissed me off. "black on black crime and blacks being shot is interlinked because if cops are called to the scene of a black on black crime, there's multiple lives that could be lost but if there was no crime going on in the first place, there wouldn't be lives in danger and stereotypes would start to die out" No. It. Isn't. Because if murders within a community (black on black, white on white etc) heightened the percentage of those races murdered by cops, then white people would be getting murdered by cops at the same frequency as blacks. But guess what? THEY AREN'T. It also sounds like you're implying that all of the innocent black people who have been shot recently were involved in black on black crimes which simply isn't true and I'm pretty sure you know that. What the hell do stereotypes have to do with it? There is honestly no logic in this point. You're well and truly scraping the barrel now.

Please answer this question plainly for me. No diversions, no extended paragraph. Just give me a simple answer. Why - proportionally to population - are black people almost four times more likely than white people to be killed by police officers in America?

Well, please just see it as a disagreement and nothing more. I live in hope that one day, you will realise I have no racial prejudices. So, let's just leave it at that.

I didn't intend to pull it out of context. I know you were responding to my point and phrasing, but then it sounded like you were believing it a bit too much. One minute, you were saying you had no influence, the next, that you couldn't help it if you were influential. Pardon me for seeing it that as a bit weird. But I'm willing to drop it. I got it wrong, I'm sorry, let's move on. I do read what you say and take it in. I think we're both guilty of thinking that the other one is deliberately mis-reading and mis-quoting us. I think that's an issue we have to work out. I don't manipulate and twist things, that's not my style.

Like I said, the only reason I criticised Azealia is because it's so rare to see a racist be so open with their views in the music industry. Most racists stay hidden. So, if one shows themselves and wears their hate so proudly, you can bet I'll say something about it. It has NOTHING to do with her race. I'd go just as hard if she were white or any other race, for that matter. I don't accept racism from anyone, especially someone who claims to stand up for oppressed people while simultaneously perpetuating stereotypes about them and insulting their fans from those groups.

You once said something about how as we're discussing American issues, we need to adjust our cultural leanings or something. Not in this thread, but you said it once before.

When I said "why I'm not racist," I meant "ignorant and prejudiced." It's just such a mouthful that I took the shorter route. Whatever you think I'm prejudiced about, it's not true, basically. There was nothing deeper to read into. I'm not taking the piss, I swear. I just went for quicker phrasing.

Well, when you've claimed to know the reasons behind my feminist views, it's always very simplistic and stereotypical. You've even said it to other people: "Don't listen to her, she's just jealous about any woman who's confident with her sexuality." Time and time again, you think any criticism I have for women is due to my jealousy and insecurity, which is such a basic judgement to make for a woman's criticism of another woman and its been used to shut down genuine criticism for decades. And when I try to claim otherwise, you insist it's still down to jealousy. Have you any idea how hurtful that is? Women have fought for centuries to be have their thoughts taken seriously and now we have that platform and men still think our motivations come solely from "womanly" emotions like jealousy and insecurity? Is our criticism never justified? Are we not intelligent beings with more than one reason behind why we say and do certain things? And the thing is, you and a lot of other men, don't realise how much this offends and angers us. I totally accept the fact that you are compassionate towards women and their struggles but there's a lot of glaring aspects that you seem to bypass without a second thought. I don't think I have the authority to override your thoughts on feminism, I'm just trying to help you widen your views, have you open up to things you never considered and it'll get you respected by the feminist community as a whole.

No, I don't think the issue is exclusive to gays in a general sense, but what I'm talking about in particular is men who are feminists and in particular, gay feminists reaction to women. Gay men usually get along with women for all manner of reasons, so it makes sense that a lot of them are feminists. But here's the thing - they claim to love, respect and support us, but if they come across a woman who doesn't agree with them on something, some of them can be vicious and completely ruin their feminist stance by taking her down the same way a straight man would. Some of them also only seem to support raunch feminism (a lot of the LGBT community are very pro-sex, after all) and have no time to listen to anyone who they deem prudish, thinking that the best way for a woman to be is overtly sexual, failing to see how damaging this lifestyle is for a lot of women. Some of them even objectify women the same way as straights. This is what I mean when I say the sexual orientation comes into it. Straight male feminists are different. They seem more open to different branches of feminism and while a lot of them are supporters of raunch feminism too, they tend to be more open minded towards other viewpoints. When a woman disagrees with them, they try to respectfully disagree and don't resort to cheap shots. Note I'm talking about straight male feminists, not straight men who don't claim feminism. If we're just talking about straight men in general, then yeah, I totally get your point about how they can say worse things, but at least they don't come off as hypocrites since they never claimed to support women. But if you're going to be a guy and openly support feminism, then you have to be respectful to women at all times, even when you disagree. And I've unfortunately seen too many gay men insult women without a second thought and it really upsets me. But I took it all back for your case and admitted that you weren't one of them. I never wanted you to demean yourself by shaming yourself and sucking up to me, all I hoped for was that you would calmly and respectfully say that you didn't realise that you were offending me so much and that you'd be mindful about what you say in future. I don't expect ass kissing apologies, I just want a genuine claim to change. I really think you need to try harder to understand why people think what they do and where pre conceived ideas come from. If someone starting picking on you for no reason, would you seriously think it was because of something you'd said, or would you start to assume they were prejudiced towards you for whatever reason? That's where the "surely you must realise" comes from.

But whites are being shot at a proportional rate to their crime rates, just like blacks are. But because there are less blacks, it's a bigger percentage of them overall being killed. But it's not to do with population, it's about who's committing crime. The disproportionate rates are because blacks commit more crime than whites per capita and are therefore more likely to get into fatal altercations. So, if black crime rates are reduced, the number of cops shooting blacks will likely go down, it's just common sense. I'm bringing up the stereotypes in reference to officers targeting blacks due to racial profiling and what apparently constitutes suspicious activity in minorities. It's well known that you're more likely to be pulled over if you're black when wearing a hoodie or you're in a car with a lot of other blacks in a bad neighbourhood. This is due to stereotypes of blacks in this attire and this set up are going to commit crime (and because it's true in some cases, cops start to think everyone like this is up to no good). But if black crime rates were reduced, the sight of blacks in hoodies or travelling in cars with other blacks would no longer be seen as suspicious or a reason to stop them. Thus, there could be less cases of cops shooting blacks after pulling them over for reasons that amount to no more than stereotyping and all hell breaking lose from there.

Black people are more likely to be killed because the police are more likely to see blacks as potential troublemakers, due to overwhelmingly negative black stereotypes in US culture. Especially in rural and more conservative states, cops are more likely to treat blacks unfairly as they are seen as a threat to their mostly white community. In cases where the black person is armed, white cops are more likely to see them as someone about to commit a planned crime whereas they tend to view a white person with a gun as either someone just exercising their right to free carry or (if they start firing with the gun) that they're 'just having a bad day.' It is clear that, if cops are going to continue to use guns, that they are thoroughly retrained to drill on them on the downside of racial profiling, what constitutes appropriate reasons to pull someone over, what constitutes acceptable reasons to fire at a suspect and how to respect its citizens and truly understand the notion of 'serve and protect.'

Does that answer your question?

July 21, 2016

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Gaga Monster said:

It is not as big of a problem as people make it out to be. Most people who get killed either attack the police or don't follow directions. Most police are good people who just want to help people

Not following directions is not an okay to be executed on the spot.

July 21, 2016

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Oh SB, I only read the first few pages of the thread before I posted, I hadn't gotten to yours yet. I saw the repeated pattern of people essentially denying the racism issue, so I commented. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

Thank you for responding, I appreciate it. I agree, there are some people who do provoke the police, but there are many who are innocent and wrongfully killed as well. I do think our cops need to be trained better in disarming as well as in conflict resolution -- these techniques are very effective in the UK and Europe.

July 21, 2016

2 hours ago, AyaKara said:

Oh SB, I only read the first few pages of the thread before I posted, I hadn't gotten to yours yet. I saw the repeated pattern of people essentially denying the racism issue, so I commented. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

Thank you for responding, I appreciate it. I agree, there are some people who do provoke the police, but there are many who are innocent and wrongfully killed as well. I do think our cops need to be trained better in disarming as well as in conflict resolution -- these techniques are very effective in the UK and Europe.

Oh, that's good, then. After you posted where you did, I didn't know if what you were saying was a subtle reference to me seeing as I'd caused a bit of controversy with the stuff I'd said. I didn't mind, I just feared that I'd maybe offended you and wanted to show that I do indeed have support for cases like the ones you listed.

Indeed, cops needs to be retrained ASAP. It's appalling that they see a simple non-compliance as a reason to shoot a lot of the time. An unarmed person refusing to put their hands up when asked is seen as a reason to shoot at them in their eyes and they need to learn how to respond to conflict better than deadly force. But until that gets done, I see no harm with encouraging people to just be as compliant as possible, even when they're innocent. Maybe living in the US all your life makes you immune to hearing orders from armed cops or you block it out or something but as a UK citizen, the sound of those orders would terrify me into submission. if an American cop asked me to stop and put my hands up, I'd do it immediately, anything to protect my life, as I know how trigger happy they can be. But I see so many reports of police shooting perfectly innocent people who simply refused to follow police orders. If you're innocent, why are you resisting arrest? I don't understand it. Cops see non-compliance as a reason to shoot. It's wrong, but it's just the way things are. And until they get coaxed out of that way of thinking, citizens needs to start thinking of the best ways to keep themselves safe.

July 21, 2016

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Don't worry, I'm not like that. I only spoke broadly since there were multiple members and it would make no sense quoting everyone since I was speaking generally anyway.

I think people get scared and they're not sure how to react. Unfortunately, there are times where people do comply and still get shot anyway, if not disrespected in other ways.

(I had no idea you were from the UK, I think I was projecting your Lana avi on you )

July 21, 2016

5 minutes ago, AyaKara said:

Don't worry, I'm not like that. I only spoke broadly since there were multiple members and it would make no sense quoting everyone since I was speaking generally anyway.

I think people get scared and they're not sure how to react. Unfortunately, there are times where people do comply and still get shot anyway, if not disrespected in other ways.

(I had no idea you were from the UK, I think I was projecting your Lana avi on you )

Yeah, some people see the American flag part and assume that I'm American, but no, my spellings kinda give it away. I naturally have a British take on a lot of things. We look at race and deal with race differently here and I always say that America could take a leaf out of our book on that front. The culture difference is why I can run into some tension with people when this stuff comes up because as a Brit, you feel like you're going crazy when it comes to how Americans react to issues in their country because it's just not the way we would do it. And by giving this perspective, you're seen as intolerant when you're actually doing the opposite. It's not intolerant, just different.

True, fear can indeed cause you to react in a way that you normally wouldn't in hindsight. But seriously, if you have a gun pointed at you, what other reaction is there to do but stand still, put your hands up and beg for mercy? Advancing towards them or running away is only going to make things worse, then you've really given them a reason to shoot. But yes, there are indeed times when innocent people comply and get shot anyway. It's those ones that BLM should be focusing on, not the ones where there was clearly a crime being committed. I don't understand why so many people make a big deal about how bad it is when a black person who was committing a crime is shot by a cop...but when a white person is shot for committing a crime, it's not widely reported, nobody cares and anyone who does comment on it says they got what was coming to them. This is what ultimately gets me about this 23 ways video. It's telling outright lies. They simplify it all right down and tell you that these people were shot for just going about their normal business. About 4 or 5 of these cases involved genuinely innocent people. The rest of them were either committing crime or didn't respond properly to cops orders. This guy did this fantastic video, breaking down all these cases and explaining the real story behind each one. Some of the truth is absolutely shocking:

His criticism of the 12 year old is still a bit too strict for my taste, but I get his point. If you Google all these cases, you'll find the truth. For these celebrities to act like all these people were completely innocent, they are unknowingly encouraging people to hate on cops based on a lack of extensive explanation. They are encouraging people not to research. But the ironic thing is that by not encouraging research, it made people do just that and call BS on the whole thing. It just shows that you have to look deeper than what the media feeds to you as part of an agenda. We want facts, not misleading race-baiting. Show me 23 legitimately innocent victims of cop shootings and you have a researched, legit piece of information that can be used to make a case. But a video where almost all of them weren't innocent by any means? That's practically false advertising.

July 21, 2016

20 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Well, please just see it as a disagreement and nothing more. I live in hope that one day, you will realise I have no racial prejudices. So, let's just leave it at that.

I didn't intend to pull it out of context. I know you were responding to my point and phrasing, but then it sounded like you were believing it a bit too much. One minute, you were saying you had no influence, the next, that you couldn't help it if you were influential. Pardon me for seeing it that as a bit weird. But I'm willing to drop it. I got it wrong, I'm sorry, let's move on. I do read what you say and take it in. I think we're both guilty of thinking that the other one is deliberately mis-reading and mis-quoting us. I think that's an issue we have to work out. I don't manipulate and twist things, that's not my style.

Like I said, the only reason I criticised Azealia is because it's so rare to see a racist be so open with their views in the music industry. Most racists stay hidden. So, if one shows themselves and wears their hate so proudly, you can bet I'll say something about it. It has NOTHING to do with her race. I'd go just as hard if she were white or any other race, for that matter. I don't accept racism from anyone, especially someone who claims to stand up for oppressed people while simultaneously perpetuating stereotypes about them and insulting their fans from those groups.

You once said something about how as we're discussing American issues, we need to adjust our cultural leanings or something. Not in this thread, but you said it once before.

When I said "why I'm not racist," I meant "ignorant and prejudiced." It's just such a mouthful that I took the shorter route. Whatever you think I'm prejudiced about, it's not true, basically. There was nothing deeper to read into. I'm not taking the piss, I swear. I just went for quicker phrasing.

Well, when you've claimed to know the reasons behind my feminist views, it's always very simplistic and stereotypical. You've even said it to other people: "Don't listen to her, she's just jealous about any woman who's confident with her sexuality." Time and time again, you think any criticism I have for women is due to my jealousy and insecurity, which is such a basic judgement to make for a woman's criticism of another woman and its been used to shut down genuine criticism for decades. And when I try to claim otherwise, you insist it's still down to jealousy. Have you any idea how hurtful that is? Women have fought for centuries to be have their thoughts taken seriously and now we have that platform and men still think our motivations come solely from "womanly" emotions like jealousy and insecurity? Is our criticism never justified? Are we not intelligent beings with more than one reason behind why we say and do certain things? And the thing is, you and a lot of other men, don't realise how much this offends and angers us. I totally accept the fact that you are compassionate towards women and their struggles but there's a lot of glaring aspects that you seem to bypass without a second thought. I don't think I have the authority to override your thoughts on feminism, I'm just trying to help you widen your views, have you open up to things you never considered and it'll get you respected by the feminist community as a whole.

No, I don't think the issue is exclusive to gays in a general sense, but what I'm talking about in particular is men who are feminists and in particular, gay feminists reaction to women. Gay men usually get along with women for all manner of reasons, so it makes sense that a lot of them are feminists. But here's the thing - they claim to love, respect and support us, but if they come across a woman who doesn't agree with them on something, some of them can be vicious and completely ruin their feminist stance by taking her down the same way a straight man would. Some of them also only seem to support raunch feminism (a lot of the LGBT community are very pro-sex, after all) and have no time to listen to anyone who they deem prudish, thinking that the best way for a woman to be is overtly sexual, failing to see how damaging this lifestyle is for a lot of women. Some of them even objectify women the same way as straights. This is what I mean when I say the sexual orientation comes into it. Straight male feminists are different. They seem more open to different branches of feminism and while a lot of them are supporters of raunch feminism too, they tend to be more open minded towards other viewpoints. When a woman disagrees with them, they try to respectfully disagree and don't resort to cheap shots. Note I'm talking about straight male feminists, not straight men who don't claim feminism. If we're just talking about straight men in general, then yeah, I totally get your point about how they can say worse things, but at least they don't come off as hypocrites since they never claimed to support women. But if you're going to be a guy and openly support feminism, then you have to be respectful to women at all times, even when you disagree. And I've unfortunately seen too many gay men insult women without a second thought and it really upsets me. But I took it all back for your case and admitted that you weren't one of them. I never wanted you to demean yourself by shaming yourself and sucking up to me, all I hoped for was that you would calmly and respectfully say that you didn't realise that you were offending me so much and that you'd be mindful about what you say in future. I don't expect ass kissing apologies, I just want a genuine claim to change. I really think you need to try harder to understand why people think what they do and where pre conceived ideas come from. If someone starting picking on you for no reason, would you seriously think it was because of something you'd said, or would you start to assume they were prejudiced towards you for whatever reason? That's where the "surely you must realise" comes from.

But whites are being shot at a proportional rate to their crime rates, just like blacks are. But because there are less blacks, it's a bigger percentage of them overall being killed. But it's not to do with population, it's about who's committing crime. The disproportionate rates are because blacks commit more crime than whites per capita and are therefore more likely to get into fatal altercations. So, if black crime rates are reduced, the number of cops shooting blacks will likely go down, it's just common sense. I'm bringing up the stereotypes in reference to officers targeting blacks due to racial profiling and what apparently constitutes suspicious activity in minorities. It's well known that you're more likely to be pulled over if you're black when wearing a hoodie or you're in a car with a lot of other blacks in a bad neighbourhood. This is due to stereotypes of blacks in this attire and this set up are going to commit crime (and because it's true in some cases, cops start to think everyone like this is up to no good). But if black crime rates were reduced, the sight of blacks in hoodies or travelling in cars with other blacks would no longer be seen as suspicious or a reason to stop them. Thus, there could be less cases of cops shooting blacks after pulling them over for reasons that amount to no more than stereotyping and all hell breaking lose from there.

Black people are more likely to be killed because the police are more likely to see blacks as potential troublemakers, due to overwhelmingly negative black stereotypes in US culture. Especially in rural and more conservative states, cops are more likely to treat blacks unfairly as they are seen as a threat to their mostly white community. In cases where the black person is armed, white cops are more likely to see them as someone about to commit a planned crime whereas they tend to view a white person with a gun as either someone just exercising their right to free carry or (if they start firing with the gun) that they're 'just having a bad day.' It is clear that, if cops are going to continue to use guns, that they are thoroughly retrained to drill on them on the downside of racial profiling, what constitutes appropriate reasons to pull someone over, what constitutes acceptable reasons to fire at a suspect and how to respect its citizens and truly understand the notion of 'serve and protect.'

Does that answer your question?

Is this a conversation about the music industry though? This is a political/social issue. Just thought it was interesting that out of people with clear racial prejudices that actually have position of influence like Donald Trump and Nigel Farage, you’d go for a widely hated, unsigned female black musician. But whatever, it’s not a massive point I’m raising. It’s not really relevant to this convo just thought it was a strange but interesting example, that’s all.

I never said anything close to “adjusting our cultural learnings”… We don’t have to talk like Americans to discuss issues having in America, but the situation is largely different - i.e. worse - there, and you can’t seem to grasp that. That was the only point I’ve ever been making about the differences. And once again it distracts from the actual important conversation, as though you’re trying to drag me away from broadcasting my opinion about how awful that is because I’m a Brit? Makes no sense. Don’t see why it’s hard to understand.

So when I use the word “racist” it’s jumping to extremes and have to adjust my phrasing but when you do it’s for convenience? It actually just makes me look bad for accusing you of something much larger than I actually am. What am I allowed to say?

Okay, see here is where I can hear and understand you. Even though I mostly disagree. I understand, when you say it like that, that those kinds of comments by me could be considered in a sexist way even though that is not my intention. I hear that and know that in that particular kind of conversation, it could be construed in that way. However I would argue that when it comes to prudishness I’d probably have that inclination - even if it is possibly unfair - whether it be a man or a woman making a judgement. Lord knows I’ve said to many men that they aren’t comfortable or secure about sexuality when they judge certain women for behaving how they choose. I don’t think I would’ve ever accused you specifically of jealousy in the past as I think it’s a weak argument and stupid on my behalf as I’m not comfortable with my body anyway. BUT this is where it’s interesting. Because you took what I said as a sexist comment, and having been exposed to that accusation I can feel - as a man - that I didn’t consider the impact it would have when read by a woman. I can consider now how it may come across when I probably phrased it pretty carelessly. I’m happy to say this now because I want to educate myself. You won’t do the same for racism. As a white person, you won’t listen to black people who experience these things that happen to them all the time for no reason, and they know it’s racist. Those comments that I and others have made to you could and have been made to men, yet despite that it’s clear that those kind of accusations are historically sexist. But you just say “how do you know it’s racism?” which is completely disrespectful and dismissive to the struggles of black people, especially as you or I will never ever ever fully understand because we’re white.

This is why I have a problem with you. You demand everyone be understanding and cooperative with the issue that faces you - sexism - but you are the exact same way with race issues. I’m glad that this whole off-topic discussion of sexism came up because it proves how passionate you are about something when it affects you and how angry you are when someone from the “opposing” group - men - can’t instantly relate. Like I said before, I’m a white male. The only thing I have going against me is being gay but all things considered I’m pretty damn privileged and the least I can do is be sensitive and open to hearing about the struggles of other groups. I wouldn’t knowingly dismiss a distressing social experience you described as sexist as being anything else, because I don’t know what that is like. How can’t you see that you’re on the flip side of that argument in a racial discussion like this? If someone discriminates against me, I know when it’s because of my sexuality rather than me as a person.

When someone discriminates against you, you know when it’s because of your gender. When someone discriminates against a black person, they know when it’s because of their race. It’s always specific types of prejudice for each group. If you aren’t open to listening and being respectful of the experiences described by anyone in a differing oppressed group, then you are part of the problem.

Your whole paragraph about black crime illustrates perfectly how you in fact do not understand institutionalised racism or the prejudices faced by others. Black people are set up to fail, and yes we are talking about America specifically again. Please read over that paragraph you just wrote and understand how it comes across as victim blaming. Regardless of these statistics, there is absolutely NO excuse for racial profiling let alone innocent murders. I don’t have that prejudice. You insist that you don’t have it either, but you’re here saying it makes sense that more blacks get killed and that they are the ones that should do something to stop it? It’s honestly the same as telling a girl who got raped that she should’ve covered her body up a bit more that night and had a little less to drink. You really don’t understand why anyone would read that and find it troubling coming from a white person? The fact you are so desperately trying to deny any racial motivations behind police killings when an innocent man was held down on the ground and shot six times last week is disgusting to me. He was a father. Imagine if that was your father, or even the father of a friend. You wouldn’t be making the same excuses/explanations as you are right now. You would be mortified. That’s what I consider to be hypocritical and ignorant.

Yes. It does answer my question. Yet it’s confusing to me that you acknowledge these negative (and ultimately fatal) stereotypes, but earlier in your post you seem to blame black people themselves for it. Gross.

July 21, 2016

58 minutes ago, Harry said:

Is this a conversation about the music industry though? This is a political/social issue. Just thought it was interesting that out of people with clear racial prejudices that actually have position of influence like Donald Trump and Nigel Farage, you’d go for a widely hated, unsigned female black musician. But whatever, it’s not a massive point I’m raising. It’s not really relevant to this convo just thought it was a strange but interesting example, that’s all.

I never said anything close to “adjusting our cultural learnings”… We don’t have to talk like Americans to discuss issues having in America, but the situation is largely different - i.e. worse - there, and you can’t seem to grasp that. That was the only point I’ve ever been making about the differences. And once again it distracts from the actual important conversation, as though you’re trying to drag me away from broadcasting my opinion about how awful that is because I’m a Brit? Makes no sense. Don’t see why it’s hard to understand.

So when I use the word “racist” it’s jumping to extremes and have to adjust my phrasing but when you do it’s for convenience? It actually just makes me look bad for accusing you of something much larger than I actually am. What am I allowed to say?

Okay, see here is where I can hear and understand you. Even though I mostly disagree. I understand, when you say it like that, that those kinds of comments by me could be considered in a sexist way even though that is not my intention. I hear that and know that in that particular kind of conversation, it could be construed in that way. However I would argue that when it comes to prudishness I’d probably have that inclination - even if it is possibly unfair - whether it be a man or a woman making a judgement. Lord knows I’ve said to many men that they aren’t comfortable or secure about sexuality when they judge certain women for behaving how they choose. I don’t think I would’ve ever accused you specifically of jealousy in the past as I think it’s a weak argument and stupid on my behalf as I’m not comfortable with my body anyway. BUT this is where it’s interesting. Because you took what I said as a sexist comment, and having been exposed to that accusation I can feel - as a man - that I didn’t consider the impact it would have when read by a woman. I can consider now how it may come across when I probably phrased it pretty carelessly. I’m happy to say this now because I want to educate myself. You won’t do the same for racism. As a white person, you won’t listen to black people who experience these things that happen to them all the time for no reason, and they know it’s racist. Those comments that I and others have made to you could and have been made to men, yet despite that it’s clear that those kind of accusations are historically sexist. But you just say “how do you know it’s racism?” which is completely disrespectful and dismissive to the struggles of black people, especially as you or I will never ever ever fully understand because we’re white.

This is why I have a problem with you. You demand everyone be understanding and cooperative with the issue that faces you - sexism - but you are the exact same way with race issues. I’m glad that this whole off-topic discussion of sexism came up because it proves how passionate you are about something when it affects you and how angry you are when someone from the “opposing” group - men - can’t instantly relate. Like I said before, I’m a white male. The only thing I have going against me is being gay but all things considered I’m pretty damn privileged and the least I can do is be sensitive and open to hearing about the struggles of other groups. I wouldn’t knowingly dismiss a distressing social experience you described as sexist as being anything else, because I don’t know what that is like. How can’t you see that you’re on the flip side of that argument in a racial discussion like this? If someone discriminates against me, I know when it’s because of my sexuality rather than me as a person.

When someone discriminates against you, you know when it’s because of your gender. When someone discriminates against a black person, they know when it’s because of their race. It’s always specific types of prejudice for each group. If you aren’t open to listening and being respectful of the experiences described by anyone in a differing oppressed group, then you are part of the problem.

Your whole paragraph about black crime illustrates perfectly how you in fact do not understand institutionalised racism or the prejudices faced by others. Black people are set up to fail, and yes we are talking about America specifically again. Please read over that paragraph you just wrote and understand how it comes across as victim blaming. Regardless of these statistics, there is absolutely NO excuse for racial profiling let alone innocent murders. I don’t have that prejudice. You insist that you don’t have it either, but you’re here saying it makes sense that more blacks get killed and that they are the ones that should do something to stop it? It’s honestly the same as telling a girl who got raped that she should’ve covered her body up a bit more that night and had a little less to drink. You really don’t understand why anyone would read that and find it troubling coming from a white person? The fact you are so desperately trying to deny any racial motivations behind police killings when an innocent man was held down on the ground and shot six times last week is disgusting to me. He was a father. Imagine if that was your father, or even the father of a friend. You wouldn’t be making the same excuses/explanations as you are right now. You would be mortified. That’s what I consider to be hypocritical and ignorant.

Yes. It does answer my question. Yet it’s confusing to me that you acknowledge these negative (and ultimately fatal) stereotypes, but earlier in your post you seem to blame black people themselves for it. Gross.

No, I'm just commenting on someone in the music industry specifically because on this forum, that is where the majority of our conversation goes and as I obviously review music, I'm very much into what people in the industry are saying. Racism sticks out in such a racially diverse business, so naturally, I'll want to comment on it. Of course, in politics, there's a lot of racists but I don't devote too much of my time to politicians as I can't stand them and find it hard to show support for any of them. So, if one of them's racist, I acknowledge it, but I won't bother stating it everywhere I go. But music, the industry that I'm actually passionate about, if someone's racist in that, I'll really have something to say. I'll rant about Trump or Farage (plus any number of Republicans) if pushed but I'd still rather not as politicians aren't my favourite topic. Mostly everyone knows what they're about and hates them anyway, so what new insight could I provide? As, by your own admission, Azealia is an indie artist, so knowledge about the extent of her racism is lost on a lot of people, so I aim to call it out for what it is and make people wake up to it if they haven't already.

Of course I realise that the situation is worse in America and that's why I suggest our British ways as a potential solution to the problem, seeing as we seem to handle things better. Sometimes other countries do stuff better and we can learn from them. It makes sense to ponder: "This issue that we have isn't as big in this country, let's see what it is they're doing that could cause things to be the way it is and try to replicate it?"

Ok, good point. I'll go easier on you for your choice of words in this case.

Thank you for acknowledging your previous comments and now seeing how they could be misconstrued. I really appreciate that. To hear you say "I hear and understand you" is so good to hear. And now comes the bit that I wondered if you'd say next - the concept that I won't educate myself on racism. I assure you, I've been doing that extensively for a good number of years. That's why I could quote statistics. I do listen to black people and acknowledge their way of looking at things but I'm also not blind to facts either. I think every cause should be looked at fairly. I critique feminism all the time and point out holes in certain feminist theories and call out women who are saying something that seems ironically anti feminist. Because I believe that you've got to strike the right balance and be fair and an oppressed group cannot rise if it can't address problems within itself. If I see something within feminism that's halting our progress, I call it out. I just apply the same idea to race issues. I'm sure you can agree that a cause can benefit from outsider opinion. You're a male feminist, after all. Knowing what men think of our movement can be a good test of how the world in general sees us and makes us acknowledge any problems in our community that could be addressed. In order for us all to get along, we've got to merge all our opinions from all sides and wade in on discussion. Notice that while I've pointed out things that you could be unknowingly sexist about, I've never denied you the right to critique anything in feminism? Because I value men's opinions just as much as women's and they have every right to question things to do with feminism, so long as they promise to be respectful about it. I see no problem with critiquing certain issues in an oppressed group, so long as you go about it as respectfully as possible. That's what I think I'm doing with race issues. Just because I'm addressing harsh realities doesn't mean that I don't have compassion. No, I will never truly experience what it's like to be black but that doesn't mean that I have no right to put forward an opinion even so.

Please understand that I am 100% supportive of issues that don't directly affect me. Naturally, I am very vocal about issues that do. That's the birthright of everyone. But I am happy to discuss issues affecting everyone, I do it all the time in my own head, even if I don't put it online. Other people fascinate me, I want to question their personalities and motives and work out what their deal is and I also have compassion for any struggles. Going through some of my own, I don't want other people to go through them either. I am not dismissing negative experiences from the black community, I'm just offering a different perspective on the issue. That doesn't make me cold hearted or racist or just not getting it. The world relies on people thinking differently, that's how we can come up with solutions to problems. But you make a good point when you say that we can tell when someone's discriminating against us for a specific reason. However, we sometimes get it wrong. You've told me that when I accused you of sexism that I was wrong. Doesn't that just undercut what you were saying about if the person involves says discrimination happened, then it did? You said so yourself that I've misunderstood your comments as sexist before. So, you're acknowledging that our gut feelings of discrimination can sometimes be wrong? That there can be other ways to interpret it? Why does this theory no longer apply when there's a racism accusation?

I do understand institutionalised racism and the prejudices faced by others, I was just quoting official crime statistics. Whatever we think of them, they're the facts. You can just pick and choose facts that suit your beliefs. But admittedly, I'd really like to be educated on something - please inform me of why blacks are apparently set up to fail (specifically in education). Because no matter how much research I've done, I can't find any evidence of this, considering that racism is a crime in educational institutions and there are programs that help minorities like affirmative action. And you can be refused a job for the most trivial of reasons, no matter your race. So, I am always baffled when people say blacks are set up to fail. But if you can educate me about this, I'm all ears. I am not trying to victim blame, honestly. And I already said that I'm against racial profiling and innocent murders. And I really don't think comparing the situation to rape is the same thing. If crime is high, how does it get reduced? When people stop doing crime. When will gun crime go down? When tighter gun control is in place. Yes, I do realise why some people find this kind of thing troubling coming from a white person, but that's just the thing. I'm sure people would be a lot more accepting if it came from someone of colour. As if the opinion is more credible when it comes from them even though it's the exact same. For what it's worth, I'd give the exact same response to whites that are getting shot by police - stop committing crime and you'll be statistically less likely to be shot. So, why is that opinion so bad when it's sad about blacks? The double standard gets to me. I want equal treatment for all and that's why I hold everyone to the same standard. That doesn't mean that we can't tackle racist perceptions simultaneously. Surely advocating for change on both sides: "blacks - stop committing crime, cops - stop shooting blacks for no reason" would result in a much better outcome than just focusing on ending one side of the problem? Look, I feel for all these people who got shot, regardless of the situation. I don't want anyone to be shot. But that doesn't mean that I just shut myself off to the realities of their situations, so matter how harsh they are. Look at the post I made above yours and watch the video of the guy who breaks down the reasons behind the black killings listed in the 23 ways video. This proves that there was more motivations behind what the cops did rather than just racism. Could it have partly played a role? Maybe. But clearly, it wasn't the only one.

I knew you'd probably find my response confusing. But that's because you still seem to struggle with this concept of having a complex opinion and juggling between compassion and facing up to harsh reality. You can be caring while still admitting facts. You can also brush the facts aside for a moment and just focus on the caring. You can do both. I think everyone should pitch in with this problem of racial oppression. It is not just white's problem to fix. We're sharing a country, contributing to a culture, contributing to stereotypes. Altogether, we've played a role in making oppression carry on. By working together, we can end it. I think the solution to this is not in shaming whites but talking about situations calmly and fairly and weighing everything up between us and all and deciding how we, as a country, will fix it. That goes for everyone, oppressed and privileged.

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Beyoncé, Rihanna & more: 23 ways to killed if your black in America

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