A sunset stroll with Lady Gaga

[Slayer 9,227]

5 hours ago, Majora said:

How do you guys feel about this? <3

I can't believe it's 8 months later and this is still the only thing she's told us about LG5. 

[Sara 1,128]

1 hour ago, Didymus said:

I don't either. But on the other hand observation is observation. She lied about a good many things, and whether or not that's human, it makes it doubtful (for me) that I can trust her now, and it influences my behavior towards her. That's something that would have an exact parallel if Gaga was a close friend of mine.

I get that this is a controversial topic, but Gaga is not just some person who didn't talk about her depression. She actively tied a fanbase to her to support her financially on the premise that she was a real artist who was 100% genuine, authentic, and cared about nothing but her artistry, and would never allow anyone to change that. That was the message that was supposed to be empowering, that was the image that led to thousands upon thousands of fans buying her products, and some more thousands to build an emotional relationship with her through social media (something Gaga is now bashing as disingenuine projection, which is true, but if she realized that back in 2010 she's nothing but a cold, manipulative trickster where her fans are concerned). That successful manipulation is the only reason fans are still here saying "aww, Gaga, I'm so glad you're happy!" instead of "this bitch ****ing lied to us for two eras straight", and not just a lie about how she was feeling, a lie that directly upped her bank account.

That's what it's about. Whether she's human or not, meant well or not, at a certain point people who support you through your bs are going to have enough when you keep contradicting the statements you routinely make to put yourself on a pedestal. That has nothing to do with "punishing" her for being human, that has everything to do with investing in a relationship where one side isn't being respected. This poisonous idea that fans want/have to emotionally support Gaga mainly through buying her products is the secret to Gaga's success (and a lot of other pop stars) but it's also unbearably hideous, and for someone who is notorious for saying she doesn't care about money it's been going on for ****ing long enough now.

 

Again, I can agree to some degree with this, but I think you are being a bit black and white, holding everything she said past and present as an absolute when it's really a continuum.  Sure, she probably didn't have as much control over her last album as she would have liked, but she made decisions that she thought were the best she could do at the time, and now she regrets some of those decisions.

And really I'm not sure what this discussion has to do with the OP, because those were just two pretty soft videos full of wonderful comments, and you narrowed in on some small piece apparently. 

Plus, what is coming across in your posts is a lot of anger, and I don't understand that either.  You feel like you've been lied to, whereas I just see the progression of an artist who has had a ton of struggles, but is still doing better than most artists in the world, and surely doing better than any of us could do, I don't know what it's like to be in that position, so who am I to judge?   It seems to me like being a pop star is an absolute battle between commercialism and authenticity, and it's going to be ugly no matter what. 

I think life is full of contradictions.  I have on many occasions said "I hate money, money is evil, etc" and then at the same time I'm the happiest person in the world when it comes pouring in.  It's both evil and powerful.   

 

 

[Slayer 9,227]

 

4 hours ago, Didymus said:

 

The point is: we can just never know if she's being real with us or not. She lied about so many important things so many times, that I'm just not buying this whole "now everything is going perfectly" current she's presenting rn. I'll buy it when I finally see it on the product and she doesn't completely go back on herself the next era when she has something new to sell.

For some reason I think she's being honest and is genuinely happy this time. I mean, she is seemingly doing the things she wants to do now (i.e. the jazz albums, AHS, TIHTY, A Star is Born). Nobody really wanted or expected those things, but she did them anyway, whereas with her pop albums she's bound to a contract and forced to make radio-friendly sounds with watered-down vocals. When she says she's in a better place now, I'm inclined to believe her. 

Then again, I don't know her personally and she could possibly be in a consistently miserable state of mind. Who knows. But I can completely understand your reluctance to believe her this time, because she has indeed lied on many occasions. I hate it when she refers to her previous work in a slightly negative way in order to promote her latest work. It's unnecessary.

[Didymus 33,414]

19 minutes ago, Sara said:

Again, I can agree to some degree with this, but I think you are being a bit black and white, holding everything she said past and present as an absolute when it's really a continuum.

Nah, I don't agree. I'm not slamming her for saying Yoü and I was her favorite song of her career and then she changed her mind This is about key statements about her artistry, her artworks, her career, and her moral values.

19 minutes ago, Sara said:

And really I'm not sure what this discussion has to do with the OP, because those were just two pretty soft videos full of wonderful comments, and you narrowed in on some small piece apparently. 

lol is anyone else discussing the full video? No. Someone in here writing "I'm so glad she's happy" is as much off-topic as my posts in that case

I narrowed in on the function of these video's: Gaga is presenting herself to the world now as an artist who struggled due to outside pressure, but found happiness, and is finally able to build on her newfound artistic authenticity. I zoomed in on the function of the video's, which is perfectly on-topic imo.

19 minutes ago, Sara said:

Plus, what is coming across in your posts is a lot of anger, and I don't understand that either. You feel like you've been lied to, whereas I just see the progression of an artist who has had a ton of struggles, but is still doing better than most artists in the world, and surely doing better than any of us could do, I don't know what it's like to be in that position, so who am I to judge? It seems to me like being a pop star is an absolute battle between commercialism and authenticity, and it's going to be ugly no matter what. 

I don't feel lied to, because I never bought into the whole "I love you, Little Monsters! Please buy all of my merch!" thing, but I know that lots of people have, and I feel a ridiculous sense of responsibility for them or whatever, I don't know, I just get really offended sometimes by how she treats her fanbase. Am I the only one who remembers she defended that awful contest where fans had to buy Applause multiple times to win a meet and greet with her? And that in the midst of an era that was supposedly about the "music, not the bling"?

That's not the progression or evolution of an artist or a person, that's disgusting, and I have no problem judging that despite not being in her position. I personally dislike the whole "she's a pop star" excuses, because she's not just a pop star. She was supposed to be the pop artist who would raise the standard by staying absolutely true to her artistic spirit and integrity. So when she literally says that she'd rather go back to singing in bars than change herself, and a year later dryly admits that she did cave in to outside pressure, that shows she has no problem with blatantly lying about pivotal subjects for opportunistic reasons (2014: to appear like the genuine artist amidst industry puppets; 2015: to act like ARTPOP wasn't really her fault, and her next projects/album will be a return to glory) to appear authentic. Which basically means we don't even know if she ever spoke the truth about anything.

You don't understand why that creates anger in me, I don't understand how it doesn't in everyone else tbh. This is not The Fame era where she was a quirky, ironic, and intentionally mysterious character. We're supposed to believe she's real and honest this time, and has a genuine connection with us. And yet she has never seemed more dishonest, self-contradicting, and manipulative (to me). And I don't like that. And, again, if her next work is as subpar as the ones supposedly ruined by her manager or her label, then I'm forced to conclude she's been a poser this entire time, and that won't be fun for me.

[Sara 1,128]

1 minute ago, Didymus said:

lol is anyone else discussing the full video? No. Someone in here writing "I'm so glad she's happy" is as much off-topic as my posts in that case

These videos do show her being happy and relaxed, especially the first one, so I don't see "I'm glad she's happy" as being so much off topic.  Whereas you are taking the opportunity of two short sweet videos to write another essay about authenticity, which you seem to be a bit obsessed with. 

If a movie star goes on the interview circuit to promote a movie that they know didn't turn out as well as they'd like, is that lying?  It's still their work, and they want it to do well, especially if they thought they were doing the best they could at the time but it just didn't work out because Michael Bay insisted on being heavy handed and won some arguments he shouldn't have.

I don't defend 100% of the things she has said, and the necessity of promotion in the entertainment industry.  But I'm not angered by it either.  It's just messy.   I understand you are angry on behalf of the fans who supported the promotion, and yet those fans aren't as angry as you are, so I really don't think you need to worry so much. 

 

 

[Didymus 33,414]

1 minute ago, Sara said:

another essay about authenticity, which you seem to be a bit obsessed with.

What?

I don't even remember the last time I wrote about this, so I'm pretty sure you don't either.

As for obsession, I care about people I appreciate being real with me. If that's called an obsession now, so be it, but then your attitude can only be described as apathy.

4 minutes ago, Sara said:

I don't defend 100% of the things she has said, and the necessity of promotion in the entertainment industry. But I'm not angered by it either. It's just messy. I understand you are angry on behalf of the fans who supported the promotion, and yet those fans aren't as angry as you are, so I really don't think you need to worry so much. 

This is a pattern with you. You'll quote me to start a conversation, and then the rest of the conversation is just: "I don't see it that way. ... I don't see it that way. ... I really don't see it that way." If you don't agree then why quote me at all? I mean, there's literally nothing you're adding here, except that you're not angered by the things I'm angered by (and I have to say, you're not even bringing good counterarguments, you especially seem to ignore my crucial ones too). Well, I am, so.. **** that I'm entitled to my own expression, and I don't need people like you to extend my post into an unnecessary repetition just to slap me a couple more times with "I don't agree". I don't care that you don't agree. Sorry.

[Sara 1,128]

3 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Well, I am, so.. **** that I'm entitled to my own expression, and I don't need people like you to extend my post into an unnecessary repetition just to slap me a couple more times with "I don't agree". I don't care that you don't agree. Sorry.

I thought "I don't agree" was a perfectly valid use of the quote mechanism, especially if I can provide some counter points or considerations.  The fact that my arguments aren't any more compelling to you than your arguments are to me isn't something I can control.  I'm posting just to present another point of view which I think is valid and in sync with what many fans also believe.

I have no idea where you got the impression that I said you weren't entitled to your own expression.  I'm not sure how I've ever "slapped" you either.   Yet in this sentence you posted I'm feeling both a slap and a reprimand for expressing myself. 

 

 

[Ronlop 6,882]

5 hours ago, Didymus said:

 

So the point is: she always has this "I was unhappy, but now I'm not" narrative when she's promoting something lately, and it's just suspicious (to me), especially because every single time she uses it to validate her work.

 

While you are extremely right about this, this time it feels like it's coming from a genuine place. Maybe she managed to trick me too? I don't know. 

But you could've kinda tell she was sick of everything back in 2013 even though she kept repeating: "I'm so excited to be here. I love ARTPOP".

I mean... I do feel like she's alot more in control than she ever was. And even if she claimed she was in control back in 2008, it doesn't mean she really was in control. 

She obviously lied...alot. But I actually think she's being herself now in every way possible.

 

[Didymus 33,414]

19 minutes ago, Sara said:

I thought "I don't agree" was a perfectly valid use of the quote mechanism, especially if I can provide some counter points or considerations. The fact that my arguments aren't any more compelling to you than your arguments are to me isn't something I can control. I'm posting just to present another point of view which I think is valid and in sync with what many fans also believe.

Ok, let's have a look at your argumentation then.

1. Other people do it too!
2. She does care about success so she has to lie during promotion!
3. Her contradictions about being happy are due to depression!
4. You're being black and white!
5. You're being off-topic!
6. We have to blame the pop star game, not Gaga!
7. Contradicting yourself is natural!
8. You don't need to be angry about this!

Did I or did I not respond to every single one of those points, and did you or did you not immediately ignore those responses in favor of attacking the issue in a fresh direction (or just repeating the same thing as if I didn't clarify that that had nothing to do with my posts)? Read back the discussion if you're not sure, 'cause the posts speak for themselves.

So in truth, none of your argumentation stands up after I clarified what I meant/contradicted your claims about what I said. Your "counterarguments" aren't valid because they'd only function if I was talking about something else. I'm charging Gaga with a very specific crime here, and you consistently try to minimize it by pretending I'm talking about her promoting ARTPOP. I'm talking about how she presents herself as an artist in general, and how there are clear waves of contradictions that have nothing to do with depression or label pressure, but with opportunism and inauthenticity on her part (and inauthenticity because she systematically counters the things that have built up her image as a genuine artist, and which she keeps using to sustain it in a way that's incomparable to daily life because she is using that image to bank on fans).

You have failed to adequately deal with that issue, so yeah, I am gonna say you're just trying to drag this out and evade the real subject so I can look like the unnecessarily worked up fan and you the understanding, realistic one who is in touch with what's really going on, all the while without offering good arguments (because they don't respond to what I'm saying, not because they're not of good quality).

[Yo GagaGaga 6,541]

She bought that house in 2014

"If you can't write music to that sunset, something's wrong with you"

[Didymus 33,414]

17 minutes ago, Ronlop said:

While you are extremely right about this, this time it feels like it's coming from a genuine place. Maybe she managed to trick me too? I don't know. 

But you could've kinda tell she was sick of everything back in 2013 even though she kept repeating: "I'm so excited to be here. I love ARTPOP".

I mean... I do feel like she's alot more in control than she ever was. And even if she claimed she was in control back in 2008, it doesn't mean she really was in control. 

She obviously lied...alot. But I actually think she's being herself now in every way possible.

I think she's been happy in her personal life more than ever, but she's still playing the part to the world. Which is perfectly logical, obviously. The difference with her early era's (for me) is that she's acting like.. herself She's acting like a normal person instead of this larger than life art persona. And that's where it's easier for me to take offense with her contradictions because we can't fit them in an ironic, artistic frame. She's just contradicting herself and these times it's often about something important.

But yeah, that's why it'll be so interesting to see LG5. The make or break it era. She's been building up this "now I'm finally free!" aura so much, she has a choice between really just doing what she wants for this record or again trying to cater to what the audience expects that freedom to sound like. I have no idea which one she'd choose because it's like I don't even know her anymore. And I never knew her as a person, but I thought I knew her as an artist, and I just don't. And I don't like that.

But I get that people see it differently. I just don't like it when people use the "she's human though" argument. If you knew a friend who contradicted herself so much up to the point where she takes all the money she claimed to only want to spend on something that was meant for both of you, and moves into a mansion in an area she despised for being filled to the brim with fakery, then you're not gonna tell me you'd be like "well she's just growing up as a person".

Above all, I care about the work, about the art, so that's probably why I'm so worked up. She's been promising a big return to artistic superiority (again) and if she fails this time I just don't know what I'll conclude and that makes me sad.

[Lord Temptation 11,209]

58 minutes ago, Sara said:

These videos do show her being happy and relaxed, especially the first one, so I don't see "I'm glad she's happy" as being so much off topic.  Whereas you are taking the opportunity of two short sweet videos to write another essay about authenticity, which you seem to be a bit obsessed with. 

If a movie star goes on the interview circuit to promote a movie that they know didn't turn out as well as they'd like, is that lying?  It's still their work, and they want it to do well, especially if they thought they were doing the best they could at the time but it just didn't work out because Michael Bay insisted on being heavy handed and won some arguments he shouldn't have.

I don't defend 100% of the things she has said, and the necessity of promotion in the entertainment industry.  But I'm not angered by it either.  It's just messy.   I understand you are angry on behalf of the fans who supported the promotion, and yet those fans aren't as angry as you are, so I really don't think you need to worry so much. 

 

 

In my experience, those who are obsessed with authenticity are the least authentic people around. They call Gaga inauthentic now because it's THEIR last shot. Not Gaga's. That's all they've got left. Everyone knows Gaga is talented, creative and above all else a kind heart and force for good in this despicable world. It's a predictably pretentious way of putting her down - to act like they know her better than she knows herself! They don't know sh*t.

Funny how seeing someone (Gaga) happy can trigger such disgust in someone else (no names mentioned lol).

 

[Sara 1,128]

5 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Ok, let's have a look at your argumentation then.

1. Other people do it too!
2. She does care about success so she has to lie during promotion!
3. Her contradictions about being happy are due to depression!
4. You're being black and white!
5. You're being off-topic!
6. We have to blame the pop star game, not Gaga!
7. Contradicting yourself is natural!
8. You don't need to be angry about this!

Did I or did I not respond to every single one of those points, and did you or did you not immediately ignore those responses in favor of attacking the issue in a fresh direction? Read back the discussion if you're not sure, 'cause the posts speak for themselves.

So in truth, none of your argumentation stands up after I clarified what I meant/contradicted your claims about wh

Hmmmm, you have summed up my points somewhat accurately, although you added exclamation marks to all of my points.  (It's minor, but tone does matter to me.  I almost never use exclamation points or curse words in my posts.  If I find myself getting angry in a debate, I really need to stop debating.)

I think you did respond to all of my points.  But I disagreed with some aspect of your responses, or at least felt that you still did not understand my point of view, so I threw out some additional thoughts and an analogy.   If you thought I offered zero new information, then you simply aren't seeing/feeling the situation the same way I am, at all, and that's okay too of course.

[Didymus 33,414]

6 minutes ago, Lord Temptation said:

In my experience, those who are obsessed with authenticity are the least authentic people around. Funny how seeing someone (Gaga) happy can trigger such disgust in someone else (no names mentioned lol).

Did it ever occur to you that she wasn't happy when she was saying she was from 2011 to the end of 2013? I'm sure you would've written the same thing to me too then when I would've been right about her not being open about the truth.

I don't care about her personal life, I care about her work. And statements about her artistry belong to the work. When they are in conflict, I see a problem, especially when those conflicts seem to be inspired by financial opportunism. That's what's triggering me.

And I know you don't care, and you'll ignore this so you can not mention my name in another thread, but for everyone else reading this thing that might be a useful post

[Ronlop 6,882]

41 minutes ago, Didymus said:

I think she's been happy in her personal life more than ever, but she's still playing the part to the world. Which is perfectly logical, obviously. The difference with her early era's (for me) is that she's acting like.. herself She's acting like a normal person instead of this larger than life art persona. And that's where it's easier for me to take offense with her contradictions because we can't fit them in an ironic, artistic frame. She's just contradicting herself and these times it's often about something important.

But yeah, that's why it'll be so interesting to see LG5. The make or break it era. She's been building up this "now I'm finally free!" aura so much, she has a choice between really just doing what she wants for this record or again trying to cater to what the audience expects that freedom to sound like. I have no idea which one she'd choose because it's like I don't even know her anymore. And I never knew her as a person, but I thought I knew her as an artist, and I just don't. And I don't like that.

But I get that people see it differently. I just don't like it when people use the "she's human though" argument. If you knew a friend who contradicted herself so much up to the point where she takes all the money she claimed to only want to spend on something that was meant for both of you, and moves into a mansion in an area she despised for being filled to the brim with fakery, then you're not gonna tell me you'd be like "well she's just growing up as a person".

Above all, I care about the work, about the art, so that's probably why I'm so worked up. She's been promising a big return to artistic superiority (again) and if she fails this time I just don't know what I'll conclude and that makes me sad.

You're right. That's probably the best way to describe her 2015 transformation. I don't really see her as "Lady Gaga" anymore, I see her as Stefani using her brand name. 

Her transition from crazy outfits on a daily basis to a t-shirt and jeans is not "because I dress crazy when I feel wild". I don't believe that ****. She dressed crazy because she knew that's what people wanted from her or what she was known for, at least. So her "freeing" herself from that image is what kind of convinced me she's really going to be herself this time around. 

You've brought up your disagreement with the "she's human" argument and I have to say that if there is one thing I've realized this year, it's that she really is just a human being. Leave that! I realized she's not that different from any average 30 years old American woman out there if you take away her talent & her being famous which was hard for me to digest at first because as you've well mentioned, I've always seen her as this larger than life art persona. 

So if you look at her decisions in her private life from a perspective of a famous 30 years old American woman who just wants to be safe and have some sort of privacy, you can understand why she contradicted her past statements and bought a 24m mansion in LA. I can totally get why you'd be disappointed though because I am as well. Especially because her contradictions have to do with something that is connected with us, the fans,  so she owes us some kind of explanation... 

 

Edit: I kind of went off-topic  sorry