Lady_Godga 40 Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 Anyone who is considering voting for a racist and mysoginist like Trump, who initially supported Sanders, is no progressive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adakam 2 Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 4 hours ago, JbGaga said: Did Gaga teach you that? And thats how you defend yourself? SCORE! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc 4,776 Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 On 3-6-2016 at 7:11 PM, Didymus said: Not sure. All I know is there are a lot of political models out there that should at least be considered. I resent the "democracy is ****, but it's the best **** you'll find" argument. Made up fantasy by lazy idiots who never tried to find an alternative. There are loads. The only way I imagine people will start to care about those alternatives is if the absolute absurdity of representational democracy and its capitalist overlay is exposed once and for all, probably (and sadly) in the most explosive manner. Trump winning would send a shock wave through Europe (which is eventually what I care about, obviously) and inspire many to take a serious look at all the amount of thinking and experimenting that's already been going on, largely unnoticed, about making a serious change in our political system for the well-being of the individual. Maybe in the U.S. the same can happen. Many philosophers have considered many types of government throughout the years... yet only few have stood the test of time, proving to be efficient: autocracy (DPRK, absolute monarchies), semi-autocracy (Turkey) and representative democracy (basically all wealthy countries). Unless you see the goal of a government as very different than most people do, which is to stimulate the economy and thus allow for an increase in consumption, while sustaining peace, I don't really see how you could have such big doubts about representative democracy. It works, basically. Though in theory a democracy shouldn't work, because the unreasonable are given too much of a say, it is the most practical and efficient so far I also think you tend to make people's opinions out to be more important, radical and susceptible to change than they really are. Trump winning would not send a shock wave throughout Europe, just like how PiS and Kaczynski winning didn't, Erdogan winning didn't and Syriza winning didn't. Next to that, people don't really doubt the system as a whole anymore. Some wish for small changes (like changing the people allowed to donate in the US), but nothing radical (like becoming a communist state, absolute monarchy, aristocracy, etc.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus 34,380 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 10 hours ago, Luc said: Many philosophers have considered many types of government throughout the years... yet only few have stood the test of time, proving to be efficient And most aren't even tested. 10 hours ago, Luc said: I don't really see how you could have such big doubts about representative democracy. It works, basically. It works but I don't like how it works and I'm not alone Politicians don't try to represent the people and that's entirely logical. Political leaders become an option because they want to lead, not because they're fit to lead. So the sea the people can fish in is extremely limited, and in the case of representative democracy the fish control the tides to a massive degree as well, defeating the very idea of a democratic election. Post-election those politicians can do anything they want, and the public is completely left out, swallowing whatever comes even though they voted for something else. That's not how democracy ruled in ancient times, and that's not how it should now. 10 hours ago, Luc said: I also think you tend to make people's opinions out to be more important, radical and susceptible to change than they really are. Trump winning would not send a shock wave throughout Europe, just like how PiS and Kaczynski winning didn't, Erdogan winning didn't and Syriza winning didn't. Next to that, people don't really doubt the system as a whole anymore. Some wish for small changes (like changing the people allowed to donate in the US), but nothing radical (like becoming a communist state, absolute monarchy, aristocracy, etc.) As if the US can be equated to Greece or Turkey. Really? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jojuun 4,159 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 I can't believe anyone who's got more than 2 IQ points would even consider Trump as a serious presidential candidate. I'd rather vote a hot dog into office. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc 4,776 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 5 hours ago, Didymus said: And most aren't even tested. It works but I don't like how it works and I'm not alone Politicians don't try to represent the people and that's entirely logical. Political leaders become an option because they want to lead, not because they're fit to lead. So the sea the people can fish in is extremely limited, and in the case of representative democracy the fish control the tides to a massive degree as well, defeating the very idea of a democratic election. Post-election those politicians can do anything they want, and the public is completely left out, swallowing whatever comes even though they voted for something else. That's not how democracy ruled in ancient times, and that's not how it should now. As if the US can be equated to Greece or Turkey. Really? Would you prefer a direct democracy? There is a real punishment for politicians, which is the next election. If they don't do what was asked from them, they won't get a majority afterwards and thus aren't in the function they were anymore, with opposition probably being in that function instead. Other than that, I don't see how you would actually prefer people to decide over things than politicians. It's for the good that politicians are more reasonable than the general population. I wonder how Also, if it works, it should be good don't see how a revolution would be necessary for something symbolic like power of the people, where each person has about 1/1000000 of the power. And finally, I think Syriza, AKP, PiS, FN, etc. actually have a bigger impact on how people view democracy in Europe than a Trump presidency would. Trump is, even by many nationalists in Europe, viewed as some kind of disease. Trump is a good argument against democracy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus 34,380 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 20 minutes ago, Luc said: Also, if it works, it should be good don't see how a revolution would be necessary for something symbolic like power of the people, where each person has about 1/1000000 of the power. I never said I wanted that so I just said alternatives were out there and they should be taken seriously for the sake of people's well-being, which I think is at a dramatic low. That's all, I don't know what you're trying to say, I think you're just being resistant on purpose no matter what I'll say, you know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whispering 18,865 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 On June 8, 2016 at 11:02 PM, mcoop said: Currently blocking all the racist supporters in this thread. Thanks for making that easy. I've noticed a direct correlation over the past few months here. For the most part, the people who are supporting a racist are the ones who have had comments here that tend to sound prejudiced in some way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartySick 172,545 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Surprised this hasn't been locked yet tbh Whimsical bitch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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