Madonna blasts Age Gracefully group

[SoldierDown 49]

On 5/6/2016 at 0:11 AM, StrawberryBlond said:

That's the thing - men can be sexy while keeping their clothes on. Someone once said 1D are sexualised more than any girlband but because they're fully clothed, we think they're not being sexualised. Boybands are more sexual than girlbands because how they make money is by being objects of lust for straight females. But girlbands make money through being role models and like cool big sisters to other females. Yet, they're visually sexualised. Why? If their main market is straight females, why are they so sexualised?

Men don't have to put up with being sexualised in their outfits because being the most powerful gender grants them that respect. Society doesn't respect women enough to not sexualise them regardless of what they're wearing. Don't you think that's sexism? I say that if men can be sexy with their clothes on, why can't women? Point is, society wants women to be sexy, so why is conforming to what society wants from you challenging the status quo?

A lot of those scantily clad younger females look terrible too. If a young female dresses trashy, she gets called every name under the sun. People react negatively to trashy outfits on women of any age. Trashy is never a good look, regardless of age.

Well, if dressing how she wants includes getting out parts of her body that we'd prefer were kept private, that's disrespecting any onlookers. I don't mind nudity if it's appropriate and if I'm expecting it. But if I saw a naked person while walking down the street I'm disgusted because it's inappropriate and uncalled for. You're got to realise that, for good reason, we don't want to see private parts hanging out in our day to day lives. There's dressing how you want and then there's making people uncomfortable. The world doesn't revolve around how much you're in love with your naked body - you've got to respect people around you.

People criticise more than Madonna's age when it comes to her outfits. It's to do with how trashy and desperate she looks more than anything. The public will happily praise an older woman doing a classy sexuality, just as they will equally praise a young woman doing classy sexuality. Save the super raunchy stuff for the boudoir, whatever your age. Is that so difficult to understand and respect? Look at what I said in the reply above - how come men can be sexy fully-clothed but women can't? If anything, women should be pointing out this double standard by dressing as demure as the men. Wouldn't that be challenging the status quo and challenging the idea of sexuality? By wanting to prove that a fully-clothed woman can be sexy? If women want the same rights as men, how about demanding the right to be fully clothed but still sexy, just like them? But no, we just endlessly reenact the tired old cliches of "being naked makes me empowered even though I'm just doing exactly what society wants of me." And we wonder why women still aren't being respected? Men have always understood that being overtly sexual doesn't make people respect them. But a lot of women seem to think very differently. I don't know why.

Only just saw this reply, and I haven't read everything posted since, but two points -

A, she's not just someone walking down the street though is she. She's at a fashion event where people are known, and expected even, to make statements and be bold with what they wear. She's not just some random person dressing like that offending you in the supermarket. She's Madonna at the Met Gala. Context is important.

B, you say by her doing this she falls in to the cliched way of thinking that "being naked makes me empowered even though I'm just doing exactly what society wants of me" - but your whole post and point of view is that this isn't what we want of her (it's trashy, it's inappropriate, some people might not want to see that) and so she's doing it! That's the whole point. She's being a '#rebelheart' and not caring what others might think and that's what pisses people off. Because why should anyone care what she decides to wear? Well because it sparks conversations like this I suppose.

And I'm not saying your POV about men and power and them not needing to dress provocatively or court attention isn't true or valid, and some women do tackle that by not being sexual and good for them, they are free to do that, but Madonna obviously doesn't want to approach it in that way and that's the point, why should she have to do that? Surely the most feminist factor is that she should be free to choose whatever means of expressing herself she wants to, not just do what would be preferred by everyone else. 

[Ferrer Zorola 3,966]

25 minutes ago, Ciccone Madonna said:

 First, she has mashed up many songs from other artists in the past like Here comes the Rain and Rain in 2008. The backdrop is just about people consuming pop music antics. the word reductive was about born this way the song, not gagas art. And the phrase shes not me is not a bad thing, but a statement she is someone else not me.

The fact that you're not wrong doesn't mean I am. Both versions could be true. 

[LUO YI 6,089]

4 minutes ago, Ciccone Madonna said:

the song was recorded and released before Gagas debut. It was about Guy Ritchie s other woman at the time.

Oh thank you 

[StrawberryBlond 13,287]

1 minute ago, SoldierDown said:

Only just saw this reply, and I haven't read everything posted since, but two points -

A, she's not just someone walking down the street though is she. She's at a fashion event where people are known, and expected even, to make statements and be bold with what they wear. She's not just some random person dressing like that offending you in the supermarket. She's Madonna at the Met Gala. Context is important.

B, you say by her doing this she falls in to the cliched way of thinking that "being naked makes me empowered even though I'm just doing exactly what society wants of me" - but your whole post and point of view is that this isn't what we want of her (it's trashy, it's inappropriate, some people might not want to see that) and so she's doing it! That's the whole point. She's being a '#rebelheart' and not caring what others might think and that's what pisses people off. Because why should anyone care what she decides to wear? Well because it sparks conversations like this I suppose.

And I'm not saying your POV about men and power and them not needing to dress provocatively or court attention isn't true or valid, and some women do tackle that by not being sexual and good for them, they are free to do that, but Madonna obviously doesn't want to approach it in that way and that's the point, why should she have to do that? Surely the most feminist factor is that she should be free to choose whatever means of expressing herself she wants to, not just do what would be preferred by everyone else. 

A) It doesn't matter where she is or who she is. She was certainly exposing herself to people at the gala without warning. At least the headlines the next day gave you some idea as to the content, so you could not look at the pictures if you didn't want to. But people at the gala didn't have a choice - it was foisted on them. And I don't think that's right. Being bold with what you wear doesn't mean exposing yourself and making others feel uncomfortable. That's not being bold, that's being inconsiderate.

B) It isn't what we want of Madonna in particular, but it's what we want from women in general, and that's what I was referring to. Giving men exactly what they want isn't challenging sexual norms, so why do women keep trying to do this? Besides, Madonna's been pulling the same stunt for years now. Does she seriously think we're challenged by it anymore? No, our disapproval partly comes from boredom. And she needs to realise that challenging people and grossing them out are 2 different things.

And my point is that a woman doesn't need to be not sexual, just not overtly so and project sexiness through attitude rather than through outfits. If a man can be sexy while fully-clothed, why can't I? If Madonna truly wants to challenge, why doesn't she arrive in a suit, like the men? How about all the women wear suits and see what the response is? They can still wear make up and heels and so on, but keep their bodies fully-covered with suits. That would be challenging sexual norms. But what Madonna did has been done to death. We've had p0rn for years. There isn't a single angle on the human body that hasn't been seen or explored. Nudity is meaningless now. So, let's go the opposite way and start challenging people by covering ourselves? Just to see how things go. Maybe it'll bring back our sense of imaginations, make us realise that sexiness doesn't come from what we're wearing and that women are worth more than their bodies.

[Spock 20,290]

[Didymus 32,745]

18 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

If Madonna truly wants to challenge, why doesn't she arrive in a suit, like the men? How about all the women wear suits and see what the response is? They can still wear make up and heels and so on, but keep their bodies fully-covered with suits. That would be challenging sexual norms. But what Madonna did has been done to death. We've had p0rn for years. There isn't a single angle on the human body that hasn't been seen or explored. Nudity is meaningless now. So, let's go the opposite way and start challenging people by covering ourselves? Just to see how things go. Maybe it'll bring back our sense of imaginations, make us realise that sexiness doesn't come from what we're wearing and that women are worth more than their bodies.

Are you even aware of her career, seriously?

Most of them are very recent. If there's anyone who has given variety on the red carpet in terms of nudity and cover-up it's Madonna She hasn't been this exposed (and cut the crap, it's not even that bad, you can't see her nipples and her breasts and butt are covered with lace - Gaga has done 100x worse many times on award shows/red carpets; do I need to bring up Gaga's whole ass hanging out at the VMA's, really?) in a very long time, so this was actually fresh coming from her.

So if you're "bored", maybe that's because you have some kind of illusion in your head that she's naked 24/7 when she clearly isn't when you take just a superficial glance at the looks throughout her career.

Also, I don't see how the "she keeps giving men what they want!" + "she's grossing people out!" combo works. It's either one of the two, make your pick. I don't even get how this look can be thought of as sexually appealing in theory or even in aim. I can much easier make that claim for last year's Met Gala look:

Now this look is what men want to see. They don't want to see a woman in control of her sexuality/body. Easy as that.

I have this post bookmarked btw for the next time Gaga shows her tits and/or ass in public. I'll be waiting for your criticism then. I mean, come on, it's so obvious you're being ageist here it's not even funny. The only reason you're whining about Madonna is because she's too old to be doing this, I haven't seen you make any of these remarks where other pop stars are concerned who use their body for sex appeal (most of all Gaga who has been more naked than all of her competitors combined). Your bias is obvious here, and it's despicable coming from someone who claims to be a feminist. As far as I'm concerned you're nothing but a Victorian housewife dressed up as someone fighting for women's rights. Grossed out by a good looking female body, really?

[androiduser 7,115]

blah blah blah..... she is only criticized when she dresses in horrible tacky bad taste outfits..... there is not even one example where she was criticized for looking sexy in a refined beautiful dress/suit/look.

She knows this, so she insists on wearing the ugliest worst looks to prove her flawed point. A woman owns her sexuality by wearing atrocities? That's what it comes down to, and the fans don't want to admit it.

[StrawberryBlond 13,287]

4 hours ago, Didymus said:

Are you even aware of her career, seriously?

Most of them are very recent. If there's anyone who has given variety on the red carpet in terms of nudity and cover-up it's Madonna She hasn't been this exposed (and cut the crap, it's not even that bad, you can't see her nipples and her breasts and butt are covered with lace - Gaga has done 100x worse many times on award shows/red carpets; do I need to bring up Gaga's whole ass hanging out at the VMA's, really?) in a very long time, so this was actually fresh coming from her.

So if you're "bored", maybe that's because you have some kind of illusion in your head that she's naked 24/7 when she clearly isn't when you take just a superficial glance at the looks throughout her career.

Also, I don't see how the "she keeps giving men what they want!" + "she's grossing people out!" combo works. It's either one of the two, make your pick. I don't even get how this look can be thought of as sexually appealing in theory or even in aim. I can much easier make that claim for last year's Met Gala look:

Now this look is what men want to see. They don't want to see a woman in control of her sexuality/body. Easy as that.

I have this post bookmarked btw for the next time Gaga shows her tits and/or ass in public. I'll be waiting for your criticism then. I mean, come on, it's so obvious you're being ageist here it's not even funny. The only reason you're whining about Madonna is because she's too old to be doing this, I haven't seen you make any of these remarks where other pop stars are concerned who use their body for sex appeal (most of all Gaga who has been more naked than all of her competitors combined). Your bias is obvious here, and it's despicable coming from someone who claims to be a feminist. As far as I'm concerned you're nothing but a Victorian housewife dressed up as someone fighting for women's rights. Grossed out by a good looking female body, really?

I know she's worn suits before but my point is, that's what she should always be wearing when she's trying to challenge sexual norms. Stripping off is expected when you're a woman, so there's nothing challenging about going along with it. It doesn't matter if its been a while since she's been this exposed (she exposed her breast in Turkey with the MDNA tour, by the way) the fact is, she already went this far and further back in the 90's. If she's already done it, it's old, for her personally. And bare breasts are ok as long as the nipples are covered? No, it doesn't work like that! And she may as well not have bothered with the tape, I feel like I can see everything anyway. Being covered in lace didn't stop her ass being any less exposed either. A thin covering doesn't make it better. And where did I say that I approved of all of Gaga's outfits?

For the last time, I was talking about what's expected of women in general - to be sexual. The grossing people out bit was in reference to the actual response you can get when you are this overtly sexual. Madonna wants people to be shocked and we're not - we feel pity for her. Shock and pity can easily be confused. That is not the reaction she wants but she's trying to spin it a different way so it appears she got the reaction she wanted. And by the way, why did you think last year's outfit looked like "a woman not in control of her sexuality/body"? You are embodying the very problem that women are plagued with - thinking that overtly sexual is the way to go. Does a woman have to be practically naked to be in control of her sexuality now? What a horrible, demeaning message. A lot of men are turned off by an overtly sexual look because it looks trashy, it's that simple. It's not because they're threatened by a strong woman showing off her body (yet, this is the lie that women are told to be believe). Most of them save that feeling of being threatened for when we start challenging their opinions and showing intelligence.

Oh, bookmark this post all you like because I'm usually highly critical of Gaga's most extreme sexual looks. I was very vocal about how obscene that transparent body suit she wore back in 2011 and I didn't like when she wore that transparent dress next to Tony Bennett. I just looked back on her VMAs 2013 moment and it's only now that I truly realise how trashy she looked, certainly from the waist down, especially when she just walked around, flaunting herself and bending over with her ass completely on show. I guess I wanted her to succeed so much at the time that I just looked over it. She has a great body, but that doesn't give her a right to shove it in people's faces and make them uncomfortable. And I have made similar complaints about other young popstars dressing like this too (Rihanna, Miley, etc). I am far from a "Victorian housewife dressed up as someone fighting for women's rights," I can assure you. I'm not grossed out looking at a female body, just when it's an inappropriate situation and a woman is only being valued for her body. It's all very well being hot and sexy, but it's possible to be smart and dignified too, not just appealing to the lowest common denominator. Women who think having a good body gives them the right to flaunt it in front of everyone (especially those who don't measure up in their view) have serious attitude problems and they are not helping women's rights.

[SoldierDown 49]

23 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

A) It doesn't matter where she is or who she is. She was certainly exposing herself to people at the gala without warning. At least the headlines the next day gave you some idea as to the content, so you could not look at the pictures if you didn't want to. But people at the gala didn't have a choice - it was foisted on them. And I don't think that's right. Being bold with what you wear doesn't mean exposing yourself and making others feel uncomfortable. That's not being bold, that's being inconsiderate.

B) It isn't what we want of Madonna in particular, but it's what we want from women in general, and that's what I was referring to. Giving men exactly what they want isn't challenging sexual norms, so why do women keep trying to do this? Besides, Madonna's been pulling the same stunt for years now. Does she seriously think we're challenged by it anymore? No, our disapproval partly comes from boredom. And she needs to realise that challenging people and grossing them out are 2 different things.

And my point is that a woman doesn't need to be not sexual, just not overtly so and project sexiness through attitude rather than through outfits. If a man can be sexy while fully-clothed, why can't I? If Madonna truly wants to challenge, why doesn't she arrive in a suit, like the men? How about all the women wear suits and see what the response is? They can still wear make up and heels and so on, but keep their bodies fully-covered with suits. That would be challenging sexual norms. But what Madonna did has been done to death. We've had p0rn for years. There isn't a single angle on the human body that hasn't been seen or explored. Nudity is meaningless now. So, let's go the opposite way and start challenging people by covering ourselves? Just to see how things go. Maybe it'll bring back our sense of imaginations, make us realise that sexiness doesn't come from what we're wearing and that women are worth more than their bodies.

Your points are so riddled with contradictions I don't really know where to begin. First of all, it absolutely matters where it is. People at the Met Gala are hardly going to be the type of people to be offended by a daring outfit choice being "foisted" on them. Yes if she was wearing this to pick her kids up from school I'd not agree with it, but it's an event where people consistently wear 'shocking' things (Beyonce's virtually naked dress from last year?) in the name of fashion. I'm not saying this outfit was revolutionary or groundbreaking, but to try and use 'the innocent people at the event might have been offended as they weren't given the choice of seeing it or not' as a criticism of her is just ridiculous, especially when it's even far from the most explicit look the event, or similar events, has seen before.

Again, you say "giving men what they want isn't challenging norms" but, again, you're saying that this isn't what we want from her and she should try being fully suited (which Didymus's post above clearly shows she has), or try being not sexual, or try being like the men, or try not grossing people out (which in itself is subjective and slightly offensive), because she's been 'pulling this stunt for so long'. All these comments show she's precisely not doing what people such as you want her to do and in that lies the statement. Why should anyone be able to try and say what she should be doing with herself? Why should she have to dress up like a man would (which I find quite an odd choice of example in itself given a lot of this argument surrounds feminist matters)? Why shouldn't a woman be allowed to choose to be overtly sexual or project sexiness through her outfits if she wants to? And without people telling her what that she shouldn't be, or rather what she should be doing instead? You obviously don't see these points as we're going around in circles, so I won't keep trying to make you see them.

 

[StrawberryBlond 13,287]

3 minutes ago, SoldierDown said:

Your points are so riddled with contradictions I don't really know where to begin. First of all, it absolutely matters where it is. People at the Met Gala are hardly going to be the type of people to be offended by a daring outfit choice being "foisted" on them. Yes if she was wearing this to pick her kids up from school I'd not agree with it, but it's an event where people consistently wear 'shocking' things (Beyonce's virtually naked dress from last year?) in the name of fashion. I'm not saying this outfit was revolutionary or groundbreaking, but to try and use 'the innocent people at the event might have been offended as they weren't given the choice of seeing it or not' as a criticism of her is just ridiculous, especially when it's even far from the most explicit look the event, or similar events, has seen before.

Again, you say "giving men what they want isn't challenging norms" but, again, you're saying that this isn't what we want from her and she should try being fully suited (which Didymus's post above clearly shows she has), or try being not sexual, or try being like the men, or try not grossing people out (which in itself is subjective and slightly offensive), because she's been 'pulling this stunt for so long'. All these comments show she's precisely not doing what people such as you want her to do and in that lies the statement. Why should anyone be able to try and say what she should be doing with herself? Why should she have to dress up like a man would (which I find quite an odd choice of example in itself given a lot of this argument surrounds feminist matters)? Why shouldn't a woman be allowed to choose to be overtly sexual or project sexiness through her outfits if she wants to? And without people telling her what that she shouldn't be, or rather what she should be doing instead? You obviously don't see these points as we're going around in circles, so I won't keep trying to make you see them.

What contradictions? Please point them out. I don't care where the event is (unless it's at a sex club) as public places will have a dress code of sorts and exposing yourself isn't on there. We live in a society where we're expected to wear clothes - let's adhere to it. There's more ways to be shocking than being naked, so just because it was at an event where shock can happen doesn't mean we're fine with seeing practically naked people. And yes, it was the most explicit look at the event.

Look at the reply to Didymus posted above to explain more. I was saying that this is expected from women in general. And I think having your bits hanging out qualifies as being "grossed out," it's hard to see how that would be subjective. Like I said above, shock and pity are different things and we're feeling pity. I'm not saying she has to dress like a man necessarily, but something that at least covers her to the same degree a man would. That would be challenging. And I keep saying you have to keep other people's feelings in mind with the way you dress. The world doesn't revolve around you and your hot body. I'm not going around in circles. Just because I don't agree with what you're saying doesn't mean I don't understand it or should be educated out of it.

[PopThatArt 2,193]

[JusKeepBreathin 19,311]

 

Cher at 64

Cher wore this when she was 64 to the 2010 MTV Awards and everyone loved it. Maybe all the backlash is because Madonna just wore a trashy outfit. 

And here she is in 2010 during her Dressed To Kill Tour

All this has been done before just  classier more Vegas Showgirl and less Vegas Callgirl. 

[Psychedelic 1,098]

On 9/5/2016 at 4:20 PM, Ferrer Zorola said:

I don't remember posting in this thread  

I like your post, it's not biased BUT you have to accept that everyone has double standards... even Madge  
first she's like "rip apart this copycat hag, make fun of her, Lady who?, she's not me, look at my tour backdrops! imitation is the best form of flattery" and then she's all "it was fun and games, people turned it into a stupid feud..., I'm a feminist, don't be hateful, love each other"

  Hide contents

 

I know you didn't post before, I quoted you and some other guys, because you tend to dislike Madonna, but at least you're straight foward about it, instead of pulling the 'my polite opinion' card everytime unlike others. My whole point was to say, it's okay to dislike her, and even being constant about it. I've come to realize that even I as a big fan, have many things I dislike form her.

What isn't good is having double standars, whether we're referring to her or someone who is having an opinion on her, especially if that "opinion" is a constant rather bashing and trashing with low profile actions. That's really annoying, they end up loooking like big hypocrites!

[Ferrer Zorola 3,966]

18 minutes ago, Psychedelic said:

I know you didn't post before, I quoted you and some other guys, because you tend to dislike Madonna, but at least you're straight foward about it, instead of pulling the 'my polite opinion' card everytime unlike others. My whole point was to say, it's okay to dislike her, and even being constant about it. I've come to realize that even I as a big fan, have many things I dislike form her.

What isn't good is having double standars, whether we're referring to her or someone who is having an opinion on her, especially if that "opinion" is a constant rather bashing and trashing with low profile actions. That's really annoying, they end up loooking like big hypocrites!

yeah if anything I'm consistent and an integral person lmao 
even when GGD users bash me for going to a Katy concert when I don't like her (I did it cuz her songs make me happy and not very often a production as big as hers comes to town )

[Psychedelic 1,098]

OMG! A certain person here should join the Immaculate Heart of Mary Church's discussion forum, instead of a music forum dedicated to an outrageous, daring pop star and her colleagues who are on the same level of daringness most of times. So contradiciting. FO REEL!