Beyonce stole "Hold Up" MV concept.

[johnpe 916]

2 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Because of you yes. You're not even trying to answer a question I'm directly asking you. Coward.

I think all of my points just showcased how excessive and pointless your question really is though.

Plus, it's quite subjective. Here we are discussing Beyonce, not a made up scenario of Lady Gaga with no strings attached.

Beyonce has a history of stealing.

Beyonce stole a concept, or again, WAS HEAVILY INFLUENCED, lol this is getting funny.

I'm being neutral and pointing out facts and you bring up Gaga? Ridiculous and that's it, 

 

[JDi 1,495]

1 minute ago, QueenGadonna said:

 

 

 

[Didymus 32,780]

Just now, johnpe said:

I think all of my points just showcased how excessive and pointless your question really is though.

What No they didn't.

Just now, johnpe said:

Plus, it's quite subjective. Here we are discussing Beyonce, not a made up scenario of Lady Gaga with no strings attached.

It's about creating perspective. You accused me of being biased, I'm just asking you to imagine this happened to Gaga to make sure you have yours in check. Obviously you don't.

1 minute ago, johnpe said:

Beyonce has a history of stealing.

She does. But that doesn't matter to my arguments. This is not a copy, because it's not specific enough and there's not a questionable intent. Just like the references in Applause aren't copies. Hell, not even this obviously specific reference is a copy:

6 minutes ago, johnpe said:

I'm being neutral and pointing out facts and you bring up Gaga? Ridiculous and that's it, 

I'm not bringing up Gaga in a negative way gosh. I'm just saying: if the tables were turned, would you say she copied that video? I don't think you did, not because you're biased (well, you definitely would be) but because it just doesn't qualify.

[JDi 1,495]

3 minutes ago, Didymus said:

What No they didn't.

It's about creating perspective. You accused me of being biased, I'm just asking you to imagine this happened to Gaga to make sure you have yours in check. Obviously you don't.

She does. But that doesn't matter to my arguments. This is not a copy, because it's not specific enough and there's not a questionable intent. Just like the references in Applause aren't copies. Hell, not even this obviously specific reference is a copy:

I'm not bringing up Gaga in a negative way gosh. I'm just saying: if the tables were turned, would you say she copied that video? I don't think you did, not because you're biased (well, you definitely would be) but because it just doesn't qualify.

well the perspective you create doesn't help prove your point because Gaga never copied scenes of random obscure artists' videos. it's not like in the Applause video. those 100 year old films are historical. they are the first film-editing tricks. that's why she plays a magician coming out of a hat. it's the first special effects. the magic of filmmaking. the videos and performances Beyoncé copied mean nothing. they are just some much lesser known contemporary artist's vision. it's not a reference. what is your point even?

[Didymus 32,780]

19 minutes ago, JDi said:

well the perspective you create doesn't help prove your point because Gaga never copied scenes of random obscure artists' videos.

Yes she has lol

Scenes and outfits:

Who the heck of y'all know Helena Almeida. If anything qualifies as a copy, this is, because Gaga used her entire art philosophy and presented it as the core idea of her own album. That's quite difference imo from just seeing a video, thinking "hey, that's cool! I wanna do that, it fits in nicely with my narrative about revenge!" and shooting your own version of it in which it's given an entire new meaning. And, besides, it's a killer reference due to its known feminist message, which Beyoncé obviously didn't miss. Her entire short film is a statement about feminism.

19 minutes ago, JDi said:

they are just some much lesser known contemporary artist's vision. it's not a reference. what is your point even?

My point was, which was explicit so if you didn't agree, fine, but then come back with good counterarguments instead of asking me to repeat what was already in the first post: this "vision" you're talking about isn't specific enough to me to qualify as a copy.

And, besides, just to set the record straight, Pipilotti Rist is not even an obscure artist, she's a known feminist performance artist and the reference in Hold Up has been noted by critics as it should be. The installation is known all over the world and the very fact that it was a live performance and not a video one already should prove to anyone that Beyoncé is referring to her. And, again, the video is notably different enough to keep it from being a rip-off, Beyoncé adds her own accents and the accents Pipilotti made aren't there. Lemonade is already known for its heavy references to the past, both musically, lyrically and visually. I don't see a problem at all, to be honest and I find it really hilarious that Gaga fans especially are twisting their nickers over this. You guys are fans of a woman who copies the references Madonna made

Hilariously enough, the connection between Helena and Gaga's outfit for the VMA's hasn't attracted notice. So your point is a mess more than mine.

[JDi 1,495]

2 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Yes she has lol

Scenes and outfits:

Who the heck of y'all know Helena Almeida. If anything qualifies as a copy, this is, because Gaga used her entire art philosophy and presented it as the core idea of her own album. That's quite difference imo from just seeing a video, thinking "hey, that's cool! I wanna do that, it fits in nicely with my narrative about revenge!" and shooting your own version of it in which it's given an entire new meaning.

My point was, which was explicit so if you didn't agree, fine, but then come back with good counterarguments instead of asking me to repeat what was already in the first post: this "vision" you're talking about isn't specific enough to me to qualify as a copy.

And, besides, just to set the record straight, Pipilotti Rist is not even an obscure artist, she's a known feminist performance artist and the reference in Hold Up has been noted by critics as it should be. The installation is known all over the world and the very fact that it was a live performance and not a video one already should prove to anyone that Beyoncé is referring to her. And, again, the video is notably different enough to keep it from being a rip-off, Beyoncé adds her own accents and the accents Pipilotti made aren't there. Lemonade is already known for its heavy references to the past, both musically, lyrically and visually. I don't see a problem at all, to be honest and I find it really hilarious that Gaga fans especially are twisting their nickers over this. You guys are fans of a woman who copies the references Madonna made

Hilariously enough, the connection between Helena and Gaga's outfit for the VMA's hasn't attracted notice. So your point is a mess more than mine.

but that's worse. that's my point.

[Didymus 32,780]

Just now, JDi said:

but that's worse. that's my point.

Why? Beyoncé made a whole short film about feminism, what it means today and where it might be going next. Pipilotti is a known feminist performance artist, so is that work. The fact that it came in handy for Beyoncé's album storyline is just a win win.

Would you have been happier if she just filmed the entire Pipilotti performance? I don't think so. It's just like when Gaga refers to something, she gives it a twist. Which is exactly what artists should do omg don't be lazy.

[JDi 1,495]

6 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Why? Beyoncé made a whole short film about feminism, what it means today and where it might be going next. Pipilotti is a known feminist performance artist, so is that work. The fact that it came in handy for Beyoncé's album storyline is just a win win.

Would you have been happier if she just filmed the entire Pipilotti performance? I don't think so. It's just like when Gaga refers to something, she gives it a twist. Which is exactly what artists should do omg don't be lazy.

there's no feminism in that scene, not in itself.

PLEASE, stop being smart for all the wrong reasons. you're very diplomatic and all but it's always on the premise that we're all delusional as Gaga fans and therefore it's always Gaga playing the target. you're less realistic this way, because Gaga remains a better educated and passionate artist. it's where her heart is. with Beyoncé it's all vanity.

[Didymus 32,780]

4 minutes ago, JDi said:

there's no feminism in that scene.

Well, then there's no feminism in the artwork either. But there is. Sorry you don't know about it and are not educating yourself about it. As lazy as you want artists to be, apparently.

4 minutes ago, JDi said:

PLEASE, stop being smart for all the wrong reasons. you're very diplomatic and all but it's always on the premise that we're all delusional as Gaga fans and therefore it's always Gaga playing the target. you're less realistic this way, because Gaga remains a better educated and passionate artist. it's where her heart is. with Beyoncé it's all vanity.

HEY!! That's not true I'm just pointing out a double standard here, that does not mean I'm saying Gaga fans are delusional. And I'm not targeting Gaga lmao I even defended some of her most explicit references a page ago.

In fact, I only mentioned Helena because YOU claimed she never used ideas or images of obscure artists And boo at the Beyoncé hate comment, we know you hate her, that's fine, but when that's all you can bring it's best to stay out of discussion threads 'cause you have no good arguments.

Gosh. All I said was I don't think this is a copy and I'm getting a shitstorm. Learn to deal with others' opinions.

[JDi 1,495]

1 minute ago, Didymus said:

Well, then there's no feminism in the artwork either. But there is. Sorry you don't know about it and are not educating yourself about it. As lazy as you want artists to be, apparently.

HEY!! That's not true I'm just point out a double standard here, that does not mean I'm saying Gaga fans are delusional. And I'm not targeting Gaga lmao I even defended some of her most explicit references a page ago.

In fact, I only mentioned Helena because YOU claimed she never used ideas or images of obscure artists And boo at the Beyoncé hate comment, we know you hate her, that's fine, but when that's all you can bring it's best to stay out of discussion threads 'cause you have no good arguments.

Gosh. All I said was I don't think this is a copy and I'm getting a shitstorm. Learn to deal with others' opinions.

it's not artistic because we know Beyoncé. people know people. the "you don't know them personally" argument won't work here. we know just how bright and artistic Beyoncé is. it's not hate, it's not preference. it's telling people for who they are. that's why it's not a double standard. it's just a different standard. Beyoncé isn't passionate about art, it doesn't work the same way it works when you find out Gaga has used other people's concepts. it's nice that people who work for Beyoncé did their research. but it doesn't make Beyoncé look like an interpreter, it makes her look like a collector.

[Didymus 32,780]

18 minutes ago, JDi said:

we know just how bright and artistic Beyoncé is. it's not hate, it's not preference. it's telling people for who they are.

You know better than all the critics since 2013 apparently. Good for you. (Not saying critics are always right, but there's not a consensus about her or something. So you don't get to play the "people know people" card lol.)

18 minutes ago, JDi said:

it doesn't work the same way it works when you find out Gaga has used other people's concepts. it's nice that people who work for Beyoncé did their research.

So when an artist does their research, finds something they like and rehash a specific artwork and the entire philosophy around it and present it as their own, that's ok? There's no way you're gonna call Beyoncé's little reference here worse than Gaga building on Helena's art philosophy as a way to sell her record. That's what I meant with questionable intent. There was nothing meaningful about Gaga's adoption of Helena's philosophy because nothing in her era reflected it. She just threw around the "the artist becomes the canvas" concept around a while, doing nothing in her music, visuals, or performances to interpret it.

Again: only bringing it up 'cause you're making me to.

Besides, let me just finish off once and for all this retarded argument about Beyoncé not being a grand artist. EVERYBODY KNOWS!!! Everybody knows she works with songwriters and producers, everybody knows she doesn't direct all her video's (though she did direct and co-direct a couple), everybody knows the Lemonade shortfilm is not her own creation, when did you ever see someone claiming that?

Everybody knows she's a fantastic performer, singer and dancer above all. That's the first thing that comes to mind. I haven't seen anyone praise Beyoncé's own original artistic vision ever. She makes statements and she makes sure all of her products have her own stamp of approval, which is exactly what Madonna did and does: it's her vision because she decides what makes it and what doesn't. But she's not the sole creator and every ****ing body knows that.

Beyoncé's not pretending to scour through art books to defend this reference. She never pretended to write all her songs and direct her video's. She just pretended to have a vision and to work with people who could bring that vision to life. So take that "Beyoncé is not an artist" argument and shove it up your ass because it is a tired, old, irrelevant and unnecessary argument about an issue that's not even an issue to begin with. End of ****ing story.

[JDi 1,495]

27 minutes ago, Didymus said:

You know better than all the critics since 2013 apparently. Good for you. (Not saying critics are always right, but there's not a consensus about her or something. So you don't get to play the "people know people" card lol.)

So when an artist does their research, finds something they like and rehash a specific artwork and the entire philosophy around it and present it as their own, that's ok? There's no way you're gonna call Beyoncé's little reference here worse than Gaga building on Helena's art philosophy as a way to sell her record. That's what I meant with questionable intent. There was nothing meaningful about Gaga's adoption of Helena's philosophy because nothing in her era reflected it. She just threw around the "the artist becomes the canvas" concept around a while, doing nothing in her music, visuals, or performances to interpret it.

Again: only bringing it up 'cause you're making me to.

Besides, let me just finish off once and for all this retarded argument about Beyoncé not being a grand artist. EVERYBODY KNOWS!!! Everybody knows she works with songwriters and producers, everybody knows she doesn't direct all her video's (though she did direct and co-direct a couple), everybody knows the Lemonade shortfilm is not her own creation, when did you ever see someone claiming that?

Everybody knows she's a fantastic performer, singer and dancer above all. That's the first thing that comes to mind. I haven't seen anyone praise Beyoncé's own original artistic vision ever. She makes statements and she makes sure all of her products have her own stamp of approval, which is exactly what Madonna did and does: it's her vision because she decides what makes it and what doesn't. But she's not the sole creator and every ****ing body knows that.

Beyoncé's not pretending to scour through art books to defend this reference. She never pretended to write all her songs and direct her video's. She just pretended to have a vision and to work with people who could bring that vision to life. So take that "Beyoncé is not an artist" argument and shove it up your ass because it is a tired, old, irrelevant and unnecessary argument about an issue that's not even an issue to begin with. End of ****ing story.

bringing up critics (who are reviewing the quality of the music produced and not the Beyoncé experience) and the way Beyoncé performs is so beside the point. when she copies it doesn't feel like Gaga's referencing. it's not exciting. it's not artistic. it's vain BECAUSE everybody knows she's not the artist behind it. it doesn't make me appreciate her more if I didn't already. It turns me off. and that's me. it doesn't have anything to do with me being delusional and a hater.

stop trying to be objective. you're not realistic.

[Didymus 32,780]

13 minutes ago, JDi said:

bringing up critics (who are reviewing the quality of the music produced and not the Beyoncé experience) and the way Beyoncé performs is so beside the point.

So is saying "we know just how bright and artistic Beyoncé is. it's not hate, it's not preference. it's telling people for who they are." Which is what I was responding to, so no actually it is precisely relevant to your point which, indeed, was beside the point.

13 minutes ago, JDi said:

it's vain BECAUSE everybody knows she's not the artist behind it. it doesn't make me appreciate her more if I didn't already. It turns me off. and that's me. it doesn't have anything to do with me being delusional and a hater.

I already said everybody knows she's not the artist behind that. So why on earth are you repeating that now? You are 100% entitled to your opinion and I never implied you didn't.

14 minutes ago, JDi said:

stop trying to be objective. you're not realistic.

But.. I'm saying everybody knows she's not some grand artist. I'm saying everybody knows she's not the only or even first person to credit when you're reviewing her work. Why did you just skip over that? So now it's not realistic to say Beyoncé is mostly complimented for her performance skill, not for her "artistic vision"? Ok, you said it..

[StrawberryBlond 13,303]

2 hours ago, Didymus said:

I'm just saying your example is wrong. Get another one. It's not difficult.

Edit: And Bey never claimed it was hers lmao get outta here

It's not wrong. It was a valid accusation. Beyonce took someone else's song and took it for herself because she felt like it. Unsurprisingly, some people didn't like this.

Well, considering how she put her name on the songwriting credits back in the original versions of the album's booklet (her name is no longer on re-issues and online) and her name is still on the production credits despite her changing nothing, I'd say she did claim it was hers. She never said a word about BC Jean, ever. Like I said before, Beyonce thinks putting in vocal gymnastics counts as production. Her name is also on the credits of other covers she has done despite her changing literally none of the lyrics. She's always been hungry for credit, even when it's not due.

[JDi 1,495]

1 hour ago, Didymus said:

So is saying "we know just how bright and artistic Beyoncé is. it's not hate, it's not preference. it's telling people for who they are." Which is what I was responding to, so no actually it is precisely relevant to your point which, indeed, was beside the point.

I already said everybody knows she's not the artist behind that. So why on earth are you repeating that now? You are 100% entitled to your opinion and I never implied you didn't.

But.. I'm saying everybody knows she's not some grand artist. I'm saying everybody knows she's not the only or even first person to credit when you're reviewing her work. Why did you just skip over that? So now it's not realistic to say Beyoncé is mostly complimented for her performance skill, not for her "artistic vision"? Ok, you said it..

but... stop. I actually agree with most of what you have to say. just not what you're trying to prove. there's no double standard in 99% of the cases you (obsessively) bring up Gaga. you don't prove ****. you argue like a zombie that's only led by the tenet that Gaga fans are delusional whenever they aren't rubbed the right way by other artists (and especially if the artist is enjoying success.)

point is, your argument sucks, because Gaga never did the kind of "rip-offs" Beyoncé's team does and if she did, I wouldn't like it and I won't try to justify it. and I'm not just saying this. and you can't just decide I'm saying this because of bias. you just have to accept it.

life is strange. smitten, people would go to great lengths pretending to not get each other. posing a square as a means to win an argument. and they know they do get each other. so why do we have to say "agree to disagree" to end a dragged-out discussion when we can just agree to get each other? you say I'm entitled to my opinion but you're still trying to prove there's a double standard. and there isn't. it's just that, to me, one artist doesn't feel like another artist. it's not the same case. if you find all these rip-off/reference/inspiration cases to be virtually the same, I understand your consequential opinions. I disagree but I get you. and it's over.

there shouldn't be a counterargument to every argument. it's not how a winner is decided. it's not human. stop being a zombie.