Who is a bigger Superstar? Gaga or Beyonce?

[Fiona Apple 13,006]

1 hour ago, Didymus said:

I already covered that Second page. It was misleading, I guess, but on the other hand, it doesn't make a difference whether or not I post a random Beyoncé tour performance or not, her dancing will always be better

Wasn't trying to prove anything, I was just trying to create a very dramatic comparison to someone who seemed to claim (which turned out not to be true) that Gaga was as good a dancer as Bey.

Beyonce always has the same choreos though in the tours..She just makes the same moves over and over again lol

[Didymus 32,914]

Just now, Britney Spears said:

Beyonce always has the same choreos though in the tours..She just makes the same moves over and over again lol

Don't really agree..

I mean, I don't even get why you have a problem with that. Gaga does literally the exact same choreo's over and over again in her tours for her hits The Poker Face choreo is still the same So not a good argument to use against someone else tbh.

[Fiona Apple 13,006]

1 minute ago, Didymus said:

Don't really agree..

I mean, I don't even get why you have a problem with that. Gaga does literally the exact same choreo's over and over again in her tours for her hits The Poker Face choreo is still the same So not a good argument to use against someone else tbh.

I mean that Beyonce has the same choreo in all of her songs...Only single ladies has a "unique" choreography.At least Gaga has a different choreo for every song..

OBVIOUSLY Beyonce is more talented as a dancer.But they are so different.Beyonce has that flawless untouchable queen vibe on stage..Gaga has a rock-starish,emotional,down to earth vibe 

[Didymus 32,914]

Just now, Britney Spears said:

I mean that Beyonce has the same choreo in all of her songs...Only single ladies has a "unique" choreography.At least Gaga has a different choreo for every song..

OBVIOUSLY Beyonce is more talented as a dancer.But they are so different.Beyonce has that flawless untouchable queen vibe on stage..Gaga has a rock-starish,emotional,down to earth vibe 

Ooh I see. Well, I get that in theory, but I think that just has to do with the fact that you don't like her style of dancing, then. I can't really agree with the idea that Gaga incorporates very distinguished choreographies into her tours.

But agreed about the second thing. Both empowering in different ways.

[Dawson 9,197]

Better? Gaga

Bigger? Yonce

[Fiona Apple 13,006]

Just now, Didymus said:

Ooh I see. Well, I get that in theory, but I think that just has to do with the fact that you don't like her style of dancing, then. I can't really agree with the idea that Gaga incorporates very distinguished choreographies into her tours.

But agreed about the second thing. Both empowering in different ways.

I love Beyonce's style of dancing.I just don't think that it's insanely good or smth.. Madonna and Britney (when she is not messy) are way better dancers).

[StrawberryBlond 13,472]

50 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Isn't that a bit of a reach though? I mean, I always thought that the reason Gaga's tours don't start with her album releases is because she's so rushed to make albums in the first place.

After all, her first Monster Ball started on November 27th which is only nine days after her album was released. Granted, Beyoncé's tour started only four days after her album release but that's not a big difference, especially when you can damn well assume that most of the fans would've listened to the album by then in both time spans.

The Monster Ball, then, ended on May 11nd, which is right before BTW was released (indeed, she was forced to play BTW the song on the tour supporting her previous album), so obviously the next tour wasn't coming until a lot later. The same counts for ARTPOP, she was nowhere ready to start a next tour so soon after the BTWB.

So.. yeah, I think that has nothing to do with artistic integrity. It's just that Gaga was so rushed to death that she didn't even have time to take a well-deserved break after her tours ended, which obviously led to her breaking down physically and emotionally both in 2012/13 and at the end of that same year.

Also, Beyoncé has never went on tour to perform songs exclusively from her new album In fact, I always criticized her for performing way too many old songs. Usually she adds more songs of the new album when the public has had the time to assimilate them (as happened during the Mrs. Carter Tour). She also did numerous legs for that one, so the people who didn't feel the need to go the first time had the chance in many cases to go back and explore a reinvented show that was built more on the newer material.

That's so harsh though Why would you call it tricking if there's a substantial amount of time between the tours? You know she's gonna bring plenty of her old hits, it's not like she's only bringing brandnew material. The setlist of Formation shows that she was a lot more focused on her other albums actually I'm assuming the fans who are familiar with her shows know they don't need to expect a super conceptual, new-album-heavy show they're never gonna be able to enjoy. That's not even what her act is about. It's about seeing Beyoncé, the star, singing and dancing live. I don't see how that promise, which she delivers every time, is a trick.

I also think you're misrepresenting the industry as a whole. Beyoncé is not the only one who goes on tour before she has properly promoted an album. Tons of artists and bands do that, including ones who aren't by far famous enough to use that situation to have a commercial benefit.

Examples of major tours that started either before or right after a new album release:

Who's That Girl World Tour, Madonna (1987): started before True Blue's release
Bad Tour, Michael Jackson (1987): 12 days after Bad
Blond Ambition World Tour, Madonna (1989): less than a month after LAP
The Division Bell Tour, Pink Floyd (1994): 2 days after TDB
Bridges to Babylon Tour, The Rolling Stones (1997): a day before BTB
A Bigger Bang, The Rolling Stones (2005): about 20 days before ABB
Black Ice World Tour, AC/DC (2008): 11 days after Black Ice
Wrecking Ball World Tour, Bruce Springsteen (2012): 13 days after WB
Out There, Paul McCartney (2013): about 6 months before New

Surely you wouldn't call Michael and Pink Floyd mere celebrities. And this is just examples from some of the most successful tours of all times (which include tons of tours that start only a month after the supported album's release, which is also too short - obviously people would've secured their tickets already before that), and I know plenty of unknown bands who I've seen when their album was coming out in the next couple of weeks. Touring can also work to promote your album instead of the other way around

Anyway. I'm used to you pulling things out of your ass to diss Beyoncé but this was quite weak if I may.

It's not a reach at all. This is how the industry works now - robbing the fans blind through touring because that's where the real money is.

No, I don't think Gaga's tours are too close together to release new tour dates before an album. Labels will achedule these things accordingly. The gaps were so small because her label allowed them to be. If they wanted her to release BTW dates before the album, they would have made the MB shorter. But they had the confidence that Gaga could put out an album before a tour and the world would still be interested in seeing her live because they had faith that they'd think the music was that good. Of course Beyonce performs a mixture of new and old material, as all artists do. There's nothing new about that. My point is that she didn't release her album until the last leg of the tour, when only a small amount of people were going to see it and then the tour was over. It was a strange thing to do. It was clear that the whole tour was just so people could hear her sing some songs from 4, seeing as it didn't get a tour and to remind the public how great she was so that her new album would sell and everyone who'd seen the show already would feel obligated to buy it. This isn't being cynical, this is clearly the truth. Being cynical isn't the same thing as being realistic.

Again, what I said wasn't harsh, it's realistic. If Gaga did the same thing, I'd be hard on her too. It's a sneaky way to get money and I don't support it. It's nothing to do with the time between tours, it's about putting tickets on sale to support an album that hasn't been released yet. You don't think there's something wrong with that? You don't think that's taking money off people without telling them what they're getting for it? I wouldn't be able to contain my disappointment if I paid for tickets for a show supporting an album that turned out to be rubbish. I wouldn't even be able to sell the tickets to someone else because they'd know the music is rubbish and not want to go. So, I'd be stuck at a concert that I wouldn't want to be at. It doesn't matter that there'll be old material there - a massive part of it will be new stuff and if it's bad, that's not good enough to justify extortionate ticket prices. Well, maybe it's just me, but I go to shows to watch new material more than old. The hits are great and all, but if I just wanted to hear them, I'd just look up live versions of previous tours on YouTube. If an artist has a new album out, I want the material on the tour to heavily focus on that, otherwise, what's the point of touring with a new album? Maybe seeing Beyonce alone is fine for some people but it wouldn't be for me, especially as all her tours look the same, as confirmed by fans.

Actually, I don't support what those legends did either. They may not be mere celebrities, but it's still fleecing the fans blindly and it's not right. And it's happening more and more now. 1D did it for all their tours, Rihanna has done it for her last two tours, Madonna did it for the MDNA tour, Beyonce obviously did it before her self-titled release. There's also many more. Some even have the cheek to do it twice in a row, in Beyonce did. Twice in a row is pushing it. There's a real arrogance about it that I detest - "Pay top dollar to see me live, it doesn't matter if you don't know what songs I'm going to be singing because you lot know my material's always amazing, right?" WRONG. What I've noticed for all these "tickets pre album" artists is that the eventual album is always ok/mediocre/awful. It's no wonder they have to get money out the public first because they know the album won't pull in enough money on its own. It's also a good way for experimental releases to have a successful tour that wouldn't normally have been possible, thus, making the underperforming album look more of a hit than it actually is (Anti being a prime example).

I don't pull things out my ass to bring Beyonce down. I seriously look at the industry and work out trends and patterns. It's not just her I'm criticising, but anyone who uses this touring model. It unfairly makes the tour a success, without letting the album decide who wants to go to the show. If you do that for every album, it's not an accurate reflection of how popular you actually are, but just what hype does.

7 minutes ago, Didymus said:

I don't get this either tbh. Her last two releases have been surprise releases, yes, but the focus has been most exclusively on the music. Which is why her albums are getting better reviews compared to her earlier ones: because there's a lot more thought put into the music and it's no longer some run of the mill substanceless pop jangles.

I mean, are you really claiming that reviewers have been misled by the force of the "event" of the whole thing? Because all I'm seeing is Beyoncé just dropping an album. Why would that matter? Tons of artists do it, especially the ones who aren't famous enough to bother to do a big promo sprawl. If the music had been bad, I don't see how reviewers wouldn't have picked up on that. Her name has never inspired reviewers to imagine fantastic music, so why would it now?

You could argue, actually, that just dropping your album and letting it speak for itself, without anticipated expectations, is a lot more organic than to systematically try to get people to care about your work by appearing everywhere and talking about it to make it look appealing. Look at Miley's surprise record. Basically, no one cared and it got trashed. So how does your point still stand up then?

That's wildly unfair too. Her U.S. success with Beyoncé was extremely good (the largest opening week for a female artist in 2013, yes that's right, I get that you're trying to evade her selling more than Gaga by flipping to the UK, but I think that's a strange strategy when you then won't mention Beyoncé outdoing Gaga in other parts of the world). The highest opening week of her entire career and that with no promo. Also three largest sales weeks in total by a female artist ever.

It was also the fastest selling album in iTunes history, both in the U.S. ànd worldwide as confirmed by Apple. It topped the charts in 104 countries and sold a million worldwide (all on iTunes) after six days. Besides, your UK comment is weird, since charts executives have noted how the album sold more than any other digital album in recent years in the country. It also was a success that grew, since it actually gained a peak in its fifth week. I don't have recent numbers, but she sold over 400.000 copies in the UK by November 2014. When we compare that to ARTPOP, Beyoncé was most definitely a bigger success, and combined with their respective tours it's clear that Beyoncé was a much bigger commercial force in total compared to Gaga on all levels.

Besides, Lemonade is proving to be a massive success in terms of the actual music on the album. Unlike Beyoncé it's topping the charts in the UK right now, so her success over seas clearly isn't dwindling. I don't get why you have to play this card, it's obvious Beyoncé is one of the only pop girls that can actually come up with fresh strategies to get her albums sold, and, ironically, it's by letting the music speak for itself. How is that not praiseworthy?

I feel like you're just gonna twist everything Beyoncé does in order to diss her. Remember when Troy said he wanted Gaga to release her music for free at some point because he felt album sales were becoming redundant? I'm beyond sure that if Beyoncé would do something like that you'd just say: "Oh, this is an obvious strategy because Beyoncé can't sell albums anymore and this way she doesn't look like a fool". I've already seen that trend with Miley and with Madonna (people who thought she leaked the album on her own 'cause she knew her sales would suck). That kind of cynicism is see-through, especially when you're using misleading and not even completely accurate facts to back up your own arguments

But, ironically, the focus hasn't been completely on the music. It was on the videos for every song, the whole surprise of the thing. That's what was talked about more than the actual music by the public at large. Beyonce fans like to believe that all those songs have settled right into the public consciousness but seriously, they haven't. The Vevo views for each of those videos will testify to that. I mean, even her most famous phrase from that era, "I woke up like this" hasn't made the whole world know Flawless. Again, its Vevo views and likes are very low, considering. This model actually causes the public to not remember very many of the songs because there were no proper singles, meaning there was no way to define the era. Singles is what causes the public to remember an album. That wasn't the case with Beyonce because there weren't any singles, technically.

Well, yes, I am saying reviewers got a bit carried away with the surprise of it all and went overboard. Same with the public. Excitement makes people overreact. I mean, I've reviewed albums in the past that I look back on a bit later and go "What was I thinking? This is mediocre at best!" Actually, 4, was one of the few albums that I looked back on and admitted I was too harsh on it and it's now my second favourite Beyonce album but most of the time, I look back and think I was too generous when it comes to most albums whose score I regretted. And actually, Beyonce's music has always been rated well. I think the lowest score I ever saw given to her was a 4/10. I've always been baffled as to why critics like her music so much. And considering that she's had the best scores of her career ever since she started surprise releasing and making a video for every song, it makes me question if the visuals and excitement is making critics overreact. Visuals have been known to make people overlook flaws. That's why tonedeaf singers are encouraged to dance in live performances, to cover up bad vocals. So, why not make a whole bunch of awesome music videos, to frame ok music as something phenomenal? It's like, are people liking the song or the video better?

It's not so much letting the music speak for itself as encouraging people to buy the entire album to check it out as there's no singles to whet your interest. People didn't have a clue what was on Self titled because she didn't have any of the songs on it in the public domain beforehand. That'll make an album sell out of sheer curiosity. I remember hearing someone say "I wanted to wait until the weekend to listen to it but knew that everyone would be talking about it in the office tomorrow and I couldn't join in, so I just downloaded the whole thing immediately." That's precisely what Beyonce wanted you to do - you were obligated to buy her album. Miley's album didn't do well because she didn't drop it like Beyonce did. She performed the lead single on the night the album came out, she didn't have singles for every track, the album was free, her shock value was now old hat...there was a lot of factors in it. But the public was bored of her, that much was clear. U2 also released a free album and failed because they didn't go all out like Beyonce did with videos with every song and suchlike and the album got forced on itunes users. Plus, Beyonce did do some hype for Lemonade. She launched it by putting the image of the album all over Times Square. That's the kind of promo most artists only wish they could get. The downside to all this is her sales will be quick, the album will fade out quicker. Traditional releases always stick around longer, literally and metaphorically.

I talked about the UK because it's where I live, so I wanted to talk about local reaction. But even worldwide, Beyonce didn't sell all that well - look at the certifications list on Wiki. France, UK and USA are the only countries where it sold 100k or more. But anyway, I was talking about Lemonade. It really didn't open with the huge numbers I thought it would, all things considered. Drake may even give her big competition next week considering his single has had 3 weeks at #1 here and he was never big in the UK. The songs may be doing well on the charts, but once streaming is factored in (and the UK only counts services that Beyonce is not on), she won't get big sales as individual songs either. And the strategy isn't fresh if she used it last time, right? I think she only uses this "drop the entire album in one go" strategy because she knows she can't sell a single anymore.

I don't twist everything - I judge every artist fairly and never makes allowances, even for my favourites. I wanted Gaga to do a free album back in the day but after U2 and Miley tested the waters, I don't want her doing that. I bet you anything that Beyonce would be praised if she did it and Gaga would be called desperate, actually! If anything, the public twist things to give Beyonce more credit and make her seem like a goddess who can do no wrong. You say things like "misleading" and "not using actual facts," but you aren't exactly doing it either. You're speculation is the same as mine, only from a fan's point of view. When I have used actual facts to back things up in the past, they get dismissed by fans who don't want to hear the truth.

[LORD GAGA 1,271]

Personally to me...

 

Lady Gaga simply because she is a genuine innovator.

 

Beyonce to me has become stale and boring... However she's good at marketing herself, even if the product she's putting out is ****, her and her team will still market it like its the second coming resulting in people over time simply accepting that as fact, then  indirectly praising everything she does, forgetting the fact that there's been several instances where if another artist released something of that standard they would be dragged by their fingernails...

[Didymus 32,914]

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

When I have used actual facts to back things up in the past, they get dismissed by fans who don't want to hear the truth.

But you haven't used facts. In fact I have proven literally with a point-by-point refutation of your "facts" that you've been using fictions

Your reply was a mess that was not even internally consistent (first Beyoncé is tricking her fans into buying her album, then her album isn't even successful, I mean make your pick) and I found most of my points to be unacknowledged.

Like, for instance that Gaga used the exact same stategy you're bashing in 2009 with the Monster Ball Plus, I don't even get half of your arguments. No, Beyoncé isn't repeating the same strategy with Lemonade, she previewed almost the entirety of the album in a free showing of her co-directed short film on HBO right before the album went on sale.. How is that tricking fans into anything?

Another annoying argument is that you claim that the Mrs. Carter Tour tricked fans too, which she didn't. There was not even a new album on the table, nobody knew that was coming, so the fans who bought tickets to that show just came to see her perform, mostly due to the success of 4 and its singles and the huge promo that came with it (she also did two residency shows whose recordings were released and successfully so).

Also, Beyoncé does not apply that tricking strategy consistently. For the I Am... World Tour she only announced the first dates of her tour a month after her album was released and went on tour about half a year after its release. So.. nope, try again.

Basically, I stand by my point that you are wielding a huge double standard here. Gaga has done way more obvious rip-offs (cue her offering a meet and greet to the fan who bought Applause the most) and yet you're just letting all that slide. Also your use of argumentation just reminds me chillingly of Gaga and Lana haters "All her tours look the same" is a bizarre argument to use in the first place when you're claiming that Beyoncé is tricking her fans into seeing a show which they know nothing about. If it's the same show over and over again, obviously it's impossible to trick your fans into anything and they're gonna love it no matter what.

But whatever, I have had a problem with your "I just don't like [insert person] but I'm gonna write a huge essay about it with lots of fictions, lies and fables in it to pretend I'm actually basing my opinion on facts and not just on personal whimsies" style of writing, but this time it was really remarkable. But I'm never gonna convince you so. Good day.

[Didymus 32,914]

1 hour ago, LORD GAGA said:

even if the product she's putting out is ****, her and her team will still market it like its the second coming resulting in people over time simply accepting that as fact, then  indirectly praising everything she does, forgetting the fact that there's been several instances where if another artist released something of that standard they would be dragged by their fingernails...

You really think Beyoncé and Lemonade are ****, musically and visually? I mean, I felt that way about her other albums.. If Gaga released those two albums, I don't think people here would be disappointed

I dunno. I mean, it's easy to apply that to artists you dislike, but on the other hand you can ask yourself questions like: if another artist released ARTPOP and Cheek to Cheek would we as Little Monsters maybe agree with the critics that they were subpar?

I use the "if someone else did this" argument a lot (mostly for Madonna now 'cause her fans still seem to think anything she does now is worthy of even being considered) but I really don't think it applies to Beyoncé from 2013 to now.

[Denys 848]

11 hours ago, M I M I Z said:

QUEEN B of course 

I'm a Gaga fan but I'm gonna be honest gaga is no longer considered A listed singer

Everything is wrong with this!

[StrawberryBlond 13,472]

36 minutes ago, Didymus said:

But you haven't used facts. In fact I have proven literally with a point-by-point refutation of your "facts" that you've been using fictions

Your reply was a mess that was not even internally consistent (first Beyoncé is tricking her fans into buying her album, then her album isn't even successful, I mean make your pick) and I found most of my points to be unacknowledged.

Like, for instance that Gaga used the exact same stategy you're bashing in 2009 with the Monster Ball Plus, I don't even get half of your arguments. No, Beyoncé isn't repeating the same strategy with Lemonade, she previewed almost the entirety of the album in a free showing of her co-directed short film on HBO right before the album went on sale.. How is that tricking fans into anything?

Another annoying argument is that you claim that the Mrs. Carter Tour tricked fans too, which she didn't. There was not even a new album on the table, nobody knew that was coming, so the fans who bought tickets to that show just came to see her perform, mostly due to the success of 4 and its singles and the huge promo that came with it (she also did two residency shows whose recordings were released and successfully so).

Also, Beyoncé does not apply that tricking strategy consistently. For the I Am... World Tour she only announced the first dates of her tour a month after her album was released and went on tour about half a year after its release. So.. nope, try again.

Basically, I stand by my point that you are wielding a huge double standard here. Gaga has done way more obvious rip-offs (cue her offering a meet and greet to the fan who bought Applause the most) and yet you're just letting all that slide. Also your use of argumentation just reminds me chillingly of Gaga and Lana haters "All her tours look the same" is a bizarre argument to use in the first place when you're claiming that Beyoncé is tricking her fans into seeing a show which they know nothing about. If it's the same show over and over again, obviously it's impossible to trick your fans into anything and they're gonna love it no matter what.

But whatever, I have had a problem with your "I just don't like [insert person] but I'm gonna write a huge essay about it with lots of fictions, lies and fables in it to pretend I'm actually basing my opinion on facts and not just on personal whimsies" style of writing, but this time it was really remarkable. But I'm never gonna convince you so. Good day.

I'm not necessarily talking about here. Just in general. But I sometimes think that something that's so obvious to me isn't so obvious to someone else.

Whether the album is successful or not isn't the point, the strategy to get people to buy it was sneaky and I did acknowledge your points.

Gaga only had an album of 8 new songs and the Fame Ball had been mostly all festivals. So, the MB really was basically The Fame for arenas, plus the new 8 songs. So, there was no misleading the public there. The public had already heard Bad Romance by the time tickets went on sale too. Yes, she did the film on the day the album went on sale. If she'd done it a week beforehand, then maybe we could talk.

People bought tickets to Mrs Carter expecting to see new material because that's how everyone was doing things then - tickets first, new album later. Right up until the eve of the first date, fans were eagerly anticipating when the new album was going to drop and were hoping that they'd like the new songs she'd be performing. Sounds like being tricked to me. And I didn't say she'd used that method before. I said she'd only used it for her last 2 tours. When she was worried about how her new material would be received.

The rip-offs that Gaga did are standard practice and a different thing anyway. And I'm not saying I agree with those ideas either. And ehen you're an artist who relies on big budget tours and lots of dancing, etc. you can't have identical looking sets and choreography. Yes, her fans buy into it again and again and I don't know why. But I'm talking about being tricked about the music, not how things look.

Maybe you'll never convince me, but don't accuse me of lying. I base a lot of my opinions on facts and basic common sense. Just remove the fan goggles for a while and look at things rationally and you may see some of my points.

22 minutes ago, Didymus said:

You really think Beyoncé and Lemonade are ****, musically and visually? I mean, I felt that way about her other albums.. If Gaga released those two albums, I don't think people here would be disappointed

I dunno. I mean, it's easy to apply that to artists you dislike, but on the other hand you can ask yourself questions like: if another artist released ARTPOP and Cheek to Cheek would we as Little Monsters maybe agree with the critics that they were subpar?

I use the "if someone else did this" argument a lot (mostly for Madonna now 'cause her fans still seem to think anything she does now is worthy of even being considered) but I really don't think it applies to Beyoncé from 2013 to now.

I think her debut was her best, even though it's very dated now and 4 is her second best, Lemonade and Beyonce after that. Sasha Fierce is mediocre, B'Day terrible. And yes, I would be disappointed if Gaga had released the last 2 albums as hers. And no, if any other artist had released AP and C2C, I would still think they were great. Only Gaga could sing these songs, obviously, but you get the idea. Seriously, I think the legacy Beyonce's built for herself has helped her gain automatic respect from critics. But I don't hold with that stuff. Even legends are not immune to criticism, even moreso, actually, because if they're so successful and respected, they'd better turn out good material. And they get lazy and end up not trying as hard because legends get an easy ride. I mean, why do fans of so many legends agree that their best material was over a long time ago, but the critics still give them decent reviews?

[PopBitch 1,218]

Equals in superstardom.

[Harry 26,836]

14 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Just remove the fan goggles for a while and look at things rationally and you may see some of my points.

LMAO.

[Didymus 32,914]

23 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Gaga only had an album of 8 new songs and the Fame Ball had been mostly all festivals. So, the MB really was basically The Fame for arenas, plus the new 8 songs. So, there was no misleading the public there. The public had already heard Bad Romance by the time tickets went on sale too.

And Lemonade has 10 new songs, are you seriously gonna make a case about that? The point is that the same strategy was used, no matter what the rest of the context is. You can still repeat all your previous points (that the fans are left robbed of a proper show experience because they might hate those 8 new songs etc.) to make the same case for Gaga but you won't, which again illustrates how you don't apply the same standard. I mean, Gaga opened with an album track no one had ever heard If anything, your vitriolic logic would have to smash something like that completely, since you even think going on tour with no direct album to promote is a crime against humanity.

Beyoncé fans also heard Formation before the tour went on sale, so again.. you have no point.

23 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Yes, she did the film on the day the album went on sale. If she'd done it a week beforehand, then maybe we could talk.

Why does that matter? I'm actually asking you because I don't see the difference that makes. Her album didn't even go on sale until a few days later, so technically, she did more to meet your standard by applying the strategy she did: she put everything out in the open for free and let the fan decide if it was worth purchasing the album. But still not good enough for StrawberryBlond. Incredible.

23 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

People bought tickets to Mrs Carter expecting to see new material because that's how everyone was doing things then - tickets first, new album later. Right up until the eve of the first date, fans were eagerly anticipating when the new album was going to drop and were hoping that they'd like the new songs she'd be performing. Sounds like being tricked to me. And I didn't say she'd used that method before. I said she'd only used it for her last 2 tours. When she was worried about how her new material would be received.

No, you said when an artist (obviously referring to Beyoncé) does that "every tour" the formula stops working. By that formula you meant announcing an album and then announcing the tour before it comes out, which isn't even the formula used for the Mrs. Carter Tour. If fans expected new music, that was because Beyoncé released two new tracks (which she incorporated into her show so technically, again, no cheating), which I'll admit was a bit of a sneaky move, but on the other hand, the show was so ****ing phenomenal and the crowds hadn't heard 4 material live before, so what's the problem? I can't imagine you'd find anyone who thought they didn't get their money's worth. It got rave reviews as well, so I don't understand why you're trying to dismiss her so quickly like that.

Nor do I believe Beyoncé was scared how her self-titled album was gonna be released. When you have a killer album like that you're not scared.

23 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

The rip-offs that Gaga did are standard practice and a different thing anyway.

Why?

23 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Maybe you'll never convince me, but don't accuse me of lying. I base a lot of my opinions on facts and basic common sense. Just remove the fan goggles for a while and look at things rationally and you may see some of my points.

But you have lied. Like.. you have, which is not even a big deal, I just wanted to correct you and that's what I did. For instance, you lied about Gaga never adopting the strategies Beyoncé does because of her artistic integrity, you lied about how real artists never adopt that kind of strategy and that in "the old days" that sort of stuff was not done, you lied about Beyoncé being unsuccessful commercially, you lied about the reviews for Beyoncé and Lemonade that you pretend focus more on the visuals than the music.

I don't need to put off my fan goggles because I don't have them on. I see nothing peculiar about Beyoncé's tactics. Sure, there are promotion tactics but when they revolve around a magnificently finished product, then I can find admiration for it.

23 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

And they get lazy and end up not trying as hard because legends get an easy ride. I mean, why do fans of so many legends agree that their best material was over a long time ago, but the critics still give them decent reviews?

What's lazy about having to shoot a music video for every song on your album? What's lazy about co-directing some of them? What's lazy about spending more time on the songwriting and production, about co-producing your tracks? What's lazy about performing the way she does when she can easily just do 1000x less because people are gonna want to see her anyway?

You disagree with the critics, fine. But you don't need to project your own irrelevant opinion (not calling yours irrelevant exclusively, all opinions are irrelevant in the end) onto reality. Beyoncé is not a lazy woman and she does not get an easy ride, especially when you think of the fact that her albums have not been very well received until right now, more than 15 years into the business.

And who in the world agrees that Beyoncé's best material is over a long time? Where are these people coming from? Why are they allowed to walk around freely? I'm taking the piss out of everyone, sure, but come on! This is a glorious era to witness as a Beyoncé fan and everything she's doing is getting rave reviews by both critics and fans. You don't need to make **** up. Your opinion is fine and should be respected at all times, but you don't need to pretend it's anything more than that. It's just not necessary and it actually makes you look arrogant instead of gracious to share your opinion and state your reasons for it. I still have not seen you explain why you think Beyoncé's older work is stronger. You just state that it is and slap a bunch of "facts" around it. I don't get why you do that. It's actually less interesting than to just hear you say why you don't like something.