Clinton “goysplains” to Bernie Sanders in Passover article

[TiphEret 1,320]

3 minutes ago, LebaneseDude said:

Hot damn that's a lengthy response lol.

I agree with your first paragraph actually. I don't believe it's anti-semitism to boycott Israel, as long as the reason is strictly not xenophobic. The thing is, it's simple to forget that boycotting Israel undermines not only the government but the more or less innocent people who simply want to live their life in peace.

Where Hillary stands, as I understand it, is as someone who is fighting against the negative portrayal that Israel has been the subject to. While I disagree with her about many points in this issue, I don't feel that it's fair to paint her as anti-Palestinian either. Even she disagrees with a lot of Israel's policies, but simultaneously understands that they are a key ally that should not be undermined so readily.

Regarding your longest paragraph, I disagree. Israel is under a significant threat from Iran and Saudi Arabia, moreso the former than the latter. In Lebanon for example, Iran operates against them using Hezbollah as a proxy. While outright warfare is not likely to happen at the moment, Israel's safety is constantly being undermined by terrorists and indirect diplomacy at their expense (such as boycotts).

This ignores the fact that many people are (justifiably) pro-Palestinian, but simultaneously unjustly believe that all Israelis are evil people that are out to get everyone else. This is the sort of **** I hear from Hezbollah. That alone tells you how hyperbolic and inane it is. 

Regarding your statement about "standing for minorities", I'd be careful in distinguishing between Israel and Jews. While Israel is informally a Jewish state, not all Jews stand in it. It's not incorrect to say that Jewish people have had a history of cooperation with other cultures, which I assume is what Hillary is referring to when she talks about minorities.

 

Ahaha I know I didn't expect it would be lengthy but it was just to prove my point that using what she says to argue is a lot better than criticizing her as a person!

I agree with most of your point but for Iran, it's complex, I have studied about Iran politics and even if they do somehow support Hezbollah it's still like... you know you don't have one main source of power in Iran so even if the president say one thing, the intelligence can do something else, and my point is yes they did use Hezbollah in the past as well as fund PLO but Iran and Israel are both hypocrites, they have supported each other not publicly especially when it comes to warfare (Iran-Iraq war, the contra scandal...) and beside this proxy war that is peanuts against Israel I highly doubt that they are stupid enough to dive into another costly war. Of course Ahmadinejad was really anti Israel and even anti semitic and I think it really tarnish the reputation of Iran on the international scene (not that they have a great one anyways...) but we could also remember that Khatami was offering the US to recognize Israel as a state and the US turn their back on him at that point when they could have restore relationship with Iran. To me it's clear Hillary as an anti Iran agenda and she won't do **** to make things better which is very stupid but... anyways it's sort of off topic...

But you also made very good point and isn't all of this a lot more effective than calling names and being emotional, I can't believe I have a rational conversation about Israel, what a change!

 

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

Just now, TiphEret said:

Ahaha I know I didn't expect it would be lengthy but it was just to prove my point that using what she says to argue is a lot better than criticizing her as a person!

I agree with most of your point but for Iran, it's complex, I have studied about Iran politics and even if they do somehow support Hezbollah it's still like... you know you don't have one main source of power in Iran so even if the president say one thing, the intelligence can do something else, and my point is yes they did use Hezbollah in the past as well as fund PLO but Iran and Israel are both hypocrites, they have supported each other not publicly especially when it comes to warfare (Iran-Iraq war, the contra scandal...) and beside this proxy war that is peanuts against Israel I highly doubt that they are stupid enough to dive into another costly war. Of course Ahmadinejad was really anti Israel and even anti semitic and I think it really tarnish the reputation of Iran on the international scene (not that they have a great one anyways...) but we could also remember that Khatami was offering the US to recognize Israel as a state and the US turn their back on him at that point when they could have restore relationship with Iran. To me it's clear Hillary as an anti Iran agenda and she won't do **** to make things better which is very stupid but... anyways it's sort of off topic...

But you also made very good point and isn't all of this a lot more effective than calling names and being emotional, I can't believe I have a rational conversation about Israel, what a change!

 

It's refreshing I know

Iran continues to fund and supply Hezbollah operations in the South, so even if they are not overt about it, they are fully in support of guerrilla operations at our expense.

[Melech 9,900]

5 hours ago, TiphEret said:

Ahahaha honestly I didn't want to get into a debate about that but... first she equates BDS to anti semitism. Of course some uses BDS as a platform to spread hatred but in other cases it has also been used to talk about Israel policies and anti semitism was not tolerated. I know in France it went to far but I can find an opposite example with how it was dealt at my uni. Opposing Israel does not equate anti semitism. So here I would disagree with her. So saying boycott equal intolerance is not ok IMO , people should be free to buy or not buy the product they want.

When she says Jews have always stood for other minorities, excuse me but thats' demagogic BS and we know it! Not saying that Jews are hating but just one word comes to my mind: settlement? If Jews were so supportive of minority how about the fundamentalist that go to the West Bank? I don't think they care so much about the locals there? 

For me the weakest thing is that she cites the book of exodus. Yeah that's nice but Zionism started in Eastern Europe and it is mostly a socialist ideology, it is about a secular state of Israel for Jewish people not about a Jewish state which is very different. I find it odd to use a religious text to support Zionism when many religious Jews oppose Zionism and the State of Israel because it goes against their interpretation of Judaism.

Finally she talks about the risk of Israel being isolated and possibly attacked. I am sorry I won't get into this too deep because I don't know all the current politics in the ME but if you take Syria. Syria is a mess. i highly doubt they would target Israel. Potentially ISIS could but they are busy with Europe. Jordan and Egypt are not enemy country. Egypt has lost against Israel, they have learnt their lesson, same goes for other neighbour country. Again Iran has other things to deal with they have no logical reason to attack Israel, war cost money and Israel has a very good army, so you have to be very stupid or very rich to launch a war against them. So what is the threat? The current conflict and for a while now Israel has control and I don't see why remaining neutral would all of sudden make Palestinian powerful, as if they would create an official government the second the US change it's policy of unconditionnal support. 

I could also add there is a lot of hypocrisy because we know the US needs Israel as an ally and especially against Iran, they want to weaken Iran because it's one the few independent from the US influence and most Western countries. 

So here you go. I am not saying she doesn't support Palestinians, but just that her piece of writing is weak and it's easy to disagree with her. I didn't take too long and you could probably contradict my arguments, but I just showed you don't need to say "oh a goy" to attack her.

A correction. Zionism actually started in Germany

[Melech 9,900]

6 hours ago, TiphEret said:

Ahahaha honestly I didn't want to get into a debate about that but... first she equates BDS to anti semitism. Of course some uses BDS as a platform to spread hatred but in other cases it has also been used to talk about Israel policies and anti semitism was not tolerated. I know in France it went to far but I can find an opposite example with how it was dealt at my uni. Opposing Israel does not equate anti semitism. So here I would disagree with her. So saying boycott equal intolerance is not ok IMO , people should be free to buy or not buy the product they want.

When she says Jews have always stood for other minorities, excuse me but thats' demagogic BS and we know it! Not saying that Jews are hating but just one word comes to my mind: settlement? If Jews were so supportive of minority how about the fundamentalist that go to the West Bank? I don't think they care so much about the locals there? 

For me the weakest thing is that she cites the book of exodus. Yeah that's nice but Zionism started in Eastern Europe and it is mostly a socialist ideology, it is about a secular state of Israel for Jewish people not about a Jewish state which is very different. I find it odd to use a religious text to support Zionism when many religious Jews oppose Zionism and the State of Israel because it goes against their interpretation of Judaism.

Finally she talks about the risk of Israel being isolated and possibly attacked. I am sorry I won't get into this too deep because I don't know all the current politics in the ME but if you take Syria. Syria is a mess. i highly doubt they would target Israel. Potentially ISIS could but they are busy with Europe. Jordan and Egypt are not enemy country. Egypt has lost against Israel, they have learnt their lesson, same goes for other neighbour country. Again Iran has other things to deal with they have no logical reason to attack Israel, war cost money and Israel has a very good army, so you have to be very stupid or very rich to launch a war against them. So what is the threat? The current conflict and for a while now Israel has control and I don't see why remaining neutral would all of sudden make Palestinian powerful, as if they would create an official government the second the US change it's policy of unconditionnal support. 

I could also add there is a lot of hypocrisy because we know the US needs Israel as an ally and especially against Iran, they want to weaken Iran because it's one the few independent from the US influence and most Western countries. 

So here you go. I am not saying she doesn't support Palestinians, but just that her piece of writing is weak and it's easy to disagree with her. I didn't take too long and you could probably contradict my arguments, but I just showed you don't need to say "oh a goy" to attack her.

Now I have a little time. 

To the first paragraph, I guess it relay depends on the people. In my dirty they yelled a t a passing Jew: we stab u next Jew and stuff like that. I don't think I ever will get warm with them, just because of the **** I faced from them.

to second paragraph, well, it's always. Ad to generalise a whole group, wether is positive or negative. I think what is meant with Jews stood up with minorities might be rather social issues like gay or woman rights. But even then there were idiots or still are lol

i don't think many religious Jews don't support Israel. There are some radical one that is in New York and relative small. But they also don't support gay rights for example. It's still a secret how some leftist people use them. It would be like if wbc would be against trump and Bernie supportes tokenise them as a religious group that is against trump.

 

 

[socotra 3,357]

On 4/21/2016 at 7:01 AM, LebaneseDude said:

Jewish people already know her stances. She's been VERY clearly pro-Israel. What she's doing is pressing the fact that she supports their interests as opposed to Sanders. It's not pandering, given that she's done so in the spotlight very recently.

It's not like Sanders, who randomly posts his civil rights efforts 30 years ago, while failing to actually show how he's helped African Americans in modern times, all while using random Christian gospel quotes.

------

She's not demonizing Palestinians. She's against Palestinian aggressors like Hamas who are relentlessly attacking Israel. She's defending Israel's right to defend itself in that case. How is that a remotely bad stance?

Friendly reminder that she's the one who negotiated ceasefires between Israel and Palestine, in a conflict that would inevitably lead to a disproportionate number of dead Palestinians. 

Hamas, like many terrorist organizations, form because of oppression and have their reasons but that doesn't make them acceptable in any shape or form. How can you be pro-Hamas?

It's like being pro-Hezbollah. 

Is there anything you disagree with Hillary on? I see you in every single thread regarding Hillary, and I get that you feel the need to defend Clinton in a sea of Bernie followers, and I'm curious if you dislike anything about her. No candidate is infallible. I love Bernie Sanders, but there's several things I disagree with him on (National $15 minimum wage for example). 

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

8 hours ago, Legalize Chris said:

Is there anything you disagree with Hillary on? I see you in every single thread regarding Hillary, and I get that you feel the need to defend Clinton in a sea of Bernie followers, and I'm curious if you dislike anything about her. No candidate is infallible. I love Bernie Sanders, but there's several things I disagree with him on (National $15 minimum wage for example). 

Of course I do. Nobody has ever asked me though because they're so busy lobbing hyperbole at her that I end up appearing anti-Sanders rather than pro-Hillary.

Since you asked:

Spoiler

 

1. When she was first lady, she murdered White House lawyer Vince Foster and then dumped his body in a park.

2. She drove Vince Foster to commit suicide through her temper tantrums.

3. She was having an affair with Vince Foster.

4. She’s a lesbian.

5. Chelsea isn’t Bill Clinton’s child.

6. She murdered Vince Foster to cover up that she once bought a tract of undeveloped land in Arkansas and lost money.

7. She murdered Vince Foster to cover up her role in firing the White House travel department.

8. After she murdered Vince Foster, she ransacked his office in the middle of the night and stole all the documents proving her guilt.

9. When Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, she was a partner in the state’s top law firm, and it sometimes did work involving the state government.

10. She once invested in commodities futures on the advice of a friend and made $100,000, proving she’s a crook.

11. She once invested in real estate on the advice of another friend and lost $100,000, also proving she’s a crook.

12. Unnamed and unverifiable sources have told Peggy Noonan things about the Clintons that are simply too terrible to repeat.

13. The personnel murdered at Benghazi make her the first secretary of state to lose overseas personnel to terrorism — apart from Condi Rice, Colin Powell, Madeleine Albright, George Schultz, Dean Rusk and some others.

14. Four State Department staff were murdered at Benghazi, compared with only 119 others murdered overseas under every secretary of state combined since World War II.

15. She illegally sent classified emails from her personal server, except that apparently they weren’t classified at the time.

16. She may have cynically wriggled around the email law by “technically” complying with it.

17. She once signed a lucrative book contract when she was a private citizen.

18. Donald Trump says she “should be in jail,” and he’s a serial bankrupt casino developer in Atlantic City, so he should know.

19. Former House Majority Leader Tom Delay says his “law-enforcement sources” tell him she is “about to be indicted” — and if a man once convicted of money laundering and conspiracy doesn’t have good law-enforcement sources, who does?

20. She’s a hard-left radical who wants to break up the nuclear family.

21. She’s a conservative “mousewife” who refused to break up her own family.

22. She’s in favor of single moms.

23. She refused to be a single mom.

24. When she was first lady of Arkansas, she pandered to conservative voters by dyeing her hair.

25. Before that, she totally insulted them by refusing to.

26. She’s a frump.

27. She spends too much money on designer dresses.

28. She has “cankles.”

29. She has a grating voice.

30. She yells into the microphone.

31. She spent 18 years in Arkansas and some of the people she knew turned out to be crazy rednecks and crooks.

32. She’s in the pay of the mafia.

33. She’s in the pay of the Chinese government.

34. She’s in the pay of the Wall Street banks.

35. In order to suppress the billing records from her time at the Rose Law Firm in Little Rock, she cleverly packed them up and took them to the White House rather than shredding them.

36. When she handed over the documents to public officials, they couldn’t find any evidence she’d committed any crimes, so she must have doctored them.

37. Congress spent tens of millions of dollars and six years investigating her investment in the Whitewater real-estate project, and, while they didn’t actually find anything, they wouldn’t have spent all that money if there weren’t something there.

38. By cleverly hiding all evidence of her crimes in the Whitewater affair, she caused Congress to waste all that taxpayers’ money.

39. When she ran for senator of New York, she was still a fan of the Chicago Cubs.

40. She once said the Clintons were thinking of adopting a child, and they didn’t follow through.

41. She was photographed holding her hand near her mouth during the raid that killed Osama bin Laden.

42. She’s got brain damage.

43. She’s old.

44. She’s really ambitious and calculating, unlike all the other people running for president.

45. She secretly supported Palestinian terrorists, Puerto Rican terrorists and Guatemalan terrorists.

46. She secretly supported a group that wants to give Maine back to the Indians.

47. She’s a secret follower of “radical prophet” Saul Alinsky.

48. She did her law degree at Yale, and it’s a well-known “socialist finishing school.”

49. When she was young, she did things to build up her résumé rather than just for their own good.

50. When Bill was president, she “allowed” him to keep people waiting.

51. She’s married to a sex addict.

52. She’s an enemy of traditional marriage.

53. She didn’t divorce her husband.

54. His philandering is her fault because she is too strong, and too weak, and too frumpy, and too fat, and too cold.

55. She’s hostile to women who fool around with her husband.

56. A divorced taxi driver in Florida told me that if Hillary is elected president, “women will take over everything.”

57. She insulted Tammy Wynette.

58. When they left the White House, she and Bill bought a big house in New York that they couldn’t afford.

59. She sometimes calls her staff during dinner, even when they’re out at a restaurant.

60. She claimed there was a “vast right-wing conspiracy” against her husband, and it turned out there was nothing but a bunch of tycoons financing private investigators, and some fake think tanks and books and news sites and stuff.

61. When she got married, she didn’t “stay at home and bake cookies.”

62. She supported the Iraq war because she’s a secret foreign-policy conservative.

63. She’s a secret foreign-policy radical with a plan to impose worldwide “radical social experimentation” through the World Bank.

64. She is secretly plotting to let children sue their parents for making them take out the garbage.

65. She looked bored during the Benghazi hearings.

66. Oh, yeah — and she totally has a vagina.

 

 

 

Jk...actually I disagree with her approach to some issues, but her stances have mostly been favorable, and I understand that many of her approaches have their justifications.

Most of my disagreements with her are in her economic policies. like her joy in accepting free trade deals so readily. It seems she has learned her lesson.

I both admire and dislike her desire to bring American values to other nations. I can't blame her for trying though, even if the results aren't always amenable.

Also as much as I dislike Sanders' fantasy promises, I also want Hillary to be more optimistic. Leaders are supposed to be reasonably optimistic. To her credit, she's trying.