ANTI: #27 - Billboard 200 / Work: #9 Hot 100

[Whispering 18,865]

15 minutes ago, Bebe said:

"Billboard finally came to the agreement that the Samsung sales could count if Samsung made the offer for a free album from anyone"  I highly doubt that, I'd love to see a source for this.

"Having a good start to an era turns into profit... (rest of this)"

Yeah that's fantastic, but Rihanna was selling out her tour before her album was even dropped... She doesn't need massive promo for that. Why does she also need marketing for an album that's already passed platinum? The album is already a hit in the eyes of Roc Nation.

The 99 cent backlash was even dumber than this frankly, but it's not something I really care to discuss because it's irrelevant. I wasn't suggesting ARTPOP should have been released like this, I was just making the point that profit for a record label is more important than a chart position and that's the most obvious thing in the world. If a record label could choose between a million albums sold or a #1 album on Billboard they would choose a million albums. You can't pay your bills with chart positions.

It happened. I know it doesn't fit your story you've made up about Roc Nation not caring about charting, but it up true. 

The tour isn't sold out, not by a long shot. I'm sure they would love to add dates and extend it, maybe even to bigger venues on a second leg. Why do artists need marketing? Because they want to sale albums for months and months. They want their singles to do well. They want to get prime promo spots. They want to be nominated for awards. All of that leads into the next era. 

You are the one that brought Gaga up. Don't bring her and her label up if you don't want to discuss it. Yes, I know what you believe, I just don't agree with you. It's what comes with the number one on Billboard and with having a good start that can be worth way more than a million dollars. It isn't just a chart position. Chart positions lead to other opportunities. 

[Bebe 16,562]

Just now, Whispering said:

It happened. I know it doesn't fit your story you've made up about Roc Nation not caring about charting, but it up true. 

The tour is going sold out, not by a long shot. I'm sure they woukd live to add dates and extend it, maybe even to bigger venues on a second leg. Why do artists need marketing? Because they want to sale albums for months and months. They want their singles to do well. They want to get prime promo spots. They want to be nominated for awards. All of that leads into the next era. 

You are the one that brought Gaga up. Don't bring her and her label up if you don't want to discuss it. Yes, I know what you believe, I just don't agree with you. It's what comes with the number one on Billboard and with having a good start that can be worth way more than a million dollars. It isn't just a chart position. Chart positions lead to other opportunities. 

"It happened. I know it doesn't fit your story you've made up about Roc Nation not caring about charting, but it up true. " Okay... Then is should be easy to find a source? It's just that I haven't heard of this and it makes 0 sense. The idea of Roc Nation thinking it would chart is laughable, the idea of Billboard saying that they would completely disregard their rules if Samsung made the offer for a free album from anyone is bizarre. Your story makes no sense and I can't find anything that backs up this wild version of events.

If you are so concerned about chart positions then check back next week when Anti goes #1 with the 100,000+ Albums she has sold without the free downloads.

Not here for a conversation where you make stories up and we just go around in circles  If you find a source for your story then I'll engage in an actual conversation with you.

[Whispering 18,865]

Just now, Bebe said:

"It happened. I know it doesn't fit your story you've made up about Roc Nation not caring about charting, but it up true. " Okay... Then is should be easy to find a source? It's just that I haven't heard of this and it makes 0 sense. The idea of Roc Nation thinking it would chart is laughable, the idea of Billboard saying that they would completely disregard their rules if Samsung made the offer for a free album from anyone is bizarre. Your story makes no sense and I can't find anything that backs up this wild version of events.

If you are so concerned about chart positions then check back next week when Anti goes #1 with the 100,000+ Albums she has sold without the free downloads.

Not here for a conversation where you make stories up and we just go around in circles  If you find a source for your story then I'll engage in an actual conversation with you.

I can find one, but I'm on a limited device right now. I'll get back to you tomorrow. 

I guess Roc Nation is a laughable label then. I don't know what to tell you on that one, tbh. It isn't disregarding rules, they were trying to make it work inside the rules. It didn't work out. 

I'm not worried about chart positions. I'm saying that record labels care about the opening week of their big artists. That is basic music knowledge. 

We've had way more conversation than about the Billboard story, but if that gives you a little out...

[Bebe 16,562]

32 minutes ago, Whispering said:

I can find one, but I'm on a limited device right now. I'll get back to you tomorrow. 

I guess Roc Nation is a laughable label then. I don't know what to tell you on that one, tbh. It isn't disregarding rules, they were trying to make it work inside the rules. It didn't work out. 

I'm not worried about chart positions. I'm saying that record labels care about the opening week of their big artists. That is basic music knowledge. 

We've had way more conversation than about the Billboard story, but if that gives you a little out...

You are basing this argument over one article that doesn't exist. I can't debate you when you are citing sources that nobody can find and seemingly don't exist.

You're trying to prove that labels care more about chart positions than an album that is a blockbuster. You are basing this off an article that reportedly shows that Roc Nation tried to bargain with Billboard and it didn't work.

My explanation is that, while charts are obviously important for labels, they are not as important as profit. It makes sense that Roc Nation would rather effectively sell 1 million records than go the traditional route and sell less than half of that. I used the example of ARTPOP saying that ARTPOP was a number 1 album. Interscope obviously would have prefered the album go platinum than go #1 because that means more money for them (And before you start again, that's an example of how hard it is for records to sell a million these days, it's not a recommendation that Interscope should have done this exact rollout with ARTPOP).

For Rihanna and Jay the million subscribers they recieved for Tidal is good for them, I'm sure for Roc Nation the promo that comes from 5.6 million streams on Tidal, 484,833 downloads of the album and the million records sold is good enough for them. Obviously they prefer this route to having a #1 album otherwise they would have aimed for the #1 album. (Obviously though this argument doesn't cut it for you because you have access to a Billboard article nobody has seen).

We know that Songs Of Innocence by U2 couldn't chart on it's free downloads from Apple (it only charted the month after when it was given a commercial release) and we know Miley's free album couldn't chart but you seem to think that Roc Nation was caught off guard by the prospect that their free downloads of Anti wouldn't count towards Billboard. That seems very unlikely, the most reasonable argument is that they did know, but didn't think a #1 charting album was more valuable than shifting 1 million records.

Roc Nation are happy, they have a platinum record on their hands. Rihanna fans and music consumers are happy, they are able to download the album for free.

I want to end this conversation because all you are going to say is something along the lines of: 

"But Roc Nation DID DEFINATELY try to make a deal with Billboard, so that sucks for you. I have no proof of this but it definately happened and you just don't want to accept it because it goes against your argument! Also a number one album is super important for a record label because it's great marketing!!"

I'm not buying the Billboard thing because it doesn't make any logical sense and I've already said that a Billboard #1 album is fantastic, but there isn't much point if you end up selling 800,000 records rather than 1 million + without it.

We are going in circles. I'll chat tomorrow if you find this article.

[yes and 4,884]

[Whispering 18,865]

@Bebe The information does exist. From DigitalTrends:

" Billboard’s Director of Charts Silvio Pietroluongo spoke with Digital Trends to explain how one organization can call an album platinum, while another does not....

Pietroluongo confirms Billboard and Tidal discussed different ways promotion for the album could work under Billboard’s current policy. In relation to Anti‘s chart position, Kim (Director of marketing at Tidal) stated Rihanna and Tidal “would’ve loved to have it count on the charts...."

There are other articles with the names of Directors and their quotes and also the information about Billboard saying that it would have to be an option to download any artists' music. I'm not making this up. 

No, I am not basing the fact that charting is important to labels off this one situation. I'm basing it on how labels look at starting off well, getting positive press and media attention and keeping it going. Surely, you aren't that confused? 

The label wasn't caught off guard, they were trying to make it work, so that it could still chart. They knew they would have to find an inventive way that Billboard would accept. 

[Serendipity 7,821]

8 hours ago, Killa said:

She has been the most consistent pop girl in the recent times. Maybe only Mariah's success can rival Ri's. The other girls, none of them stood in the top for 10 years. At least that i can think of (in similar circumstances).

Dude, it's more like the other way

 

she produced a new #1 for 11 consecutive years in her imperial phase (Loverboy could've been her 12th year but got blocked at #2) [18 #1s as of now; despite the fact her albums wouldn't get more than 2-3 singles at most even in her peak]

 

also, Daydream and Music Box are certified Diamond (her debut is eligible for Diamond cert too)

 

she also place 8 songs on the Decade end chart of 90s (One Sweet Day being #1)

then she got a second Song of the Decade, We Belong Together

 

 

she had the second most amount of #1 hits in her second decade of career

 

The Emancipation of Mimi was the best selling album of the year (her second after her debut was best seller of 1991; poor Music Box and Daydream at #2)

 

also, pretty sure Butterfly tour and Daydream tour had strong numbers

 

also, before 2014, she held the record for most #1 by a songwriter

 

 

and lets not forget the 3rd best selling female single of all time AIWFCIY

 

 

unlike Rih, she was a powerhouse in every field -even vocally

[Bebe 16,562]

1 minute ago, Whispering said:

@Bebe The information does exist. From DigitalTrends:

" Billboard’s Director of Charts Silvio Pietroluongo spoke with Digital Trends to explain how one organization can call an album platinum, while another does not....

Pietroluongo confirms Billboard and Tidal discussed different ways promotion for the album could work under Billboard’s current policy. In relation to Anti‘s chart position, Kim (Director of marketing at Tidal) stated Rihanna and Tidal “would’ve loved to have it count on the charts...."

There are other articles with the names of Directors and their quotes and also the information about Billboard saying that it would have to be an option to download any artists' music. I'm not making this up. 

No, I am not basing the fact that charting is important to labels off this one situation. I'm basing it on how labels look at starting off well, getting positive press and media attention and keeping it going. Surely, you aren't that confused? 

The label wasn't caught off guard, they were trying to make it work, so that it could still chart. They knew they would have to find an inventive way that Billboard would accept. 

So you are talking about this: http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/rihanna-billboard-tidal-anti-platinum/

They discussed "different ways promotion for the album could work under Billboard’s current policy" but "“would’ve loved to have it count” on the charts, “but ultimately it became about giving music directly to the fans.”

That's consistant with what I have said... Charts would be great, they talked with Billboard about how that could work under their current rules but they obviously prioritised their deal with Samsung because they felt that was a better move. They understood the rules and prioritised profit (and shifting 1 million units) over chart positions.

Nothing in there close to what you claimed which was:
" Rihanna's team went to Billboard to try to get the sales to count in their charts. Billboard finally came to the agreement that the Samsung sales could count if Samsung made the offer for a free album from anyone, not just Rihanna. That wasn't acceptable for Rihanna's team, so they went with this plan."

You framed it as if Roc Nation was negotiating with Billboard, they were not they were trying to figure out if there was a way their plan could work within Billboards perimeters but couldn't find a way so they went without it. You claimed that Billboard tried to make a deal with them but Rihanna's team where greedy

 

[Fiona Apple 13,006]

I don't think that the song will peak higher than that.. Btw #27 slay 

[Whispering 18,865]

10 minutes ago, Bebe said:

So you are talking about this: http://www.digitaltrends.com/music/rihanna-billboard-tidal-anti-platinum/

They discussed "different ways promotion for the album could work under Billboard’s current policy" but "“would’ve loved to have it count” on the charts, “but ultimately it became about giving music directly to the fans.”

That's consistant with what I have said... Charts would be great, they talked with Billboard about how that could work under their current rules but they obviously prioritised their deal with Samsung because they felt that was a better move. They understood the rules and prioritised profit (and shifting 1 million units) over chart positions.

Nothing in there close to what you claimed which was:
" Rihanna's team went to Billboard to try to get the sales to count in their charts. Billboard finally came to the agreement that the Samsung sales could count if Samsung made the offer for a free album from anyone, not just Rihanna. That wasn't acceptable for Rihanna's team, so they went with this plan."

You framed it as if Roc Nation was negotiating with Billboard, they were not they were trying to figure out if there was a way their plan could work within Billboards perimeters but couldn't find a way so they went without it. You claimed that Billboard tried to make a deal with them but Rihanna's team where greedy

 

They discussed ways to make it work...ways to make the album count on Billboard, which is what I've stated all along. No, they couldn't get it to work. From HDD:

"According to members of her team, one of the major stumbling blocks to Samsung’s planned giveaway of Rihanna’s forthcoming album, ANTI—as part of the highly publicized $25m deal with the tech giant—is how to make it count on the charts. Assuming, of course, that she puts it out in Q4.

The bible brain trust that decides these things has come up with a new ruling, which turns out to be rather problematic: They’ll count the free offer from Samsung if the coupon can be redeemed for any album—and, although the offer will be wrapped in Rihanna marketing, the coupon must feature type big enough to make it clear that consumers have a choice of album. The back-and-forth between Roc Nation (which is both her label and her management) and the bible over how to execute the promotion has reportedly been fierce, to say the least."

I didn't frame anything. I reported what I have read in several articles on several music media sites. Roc Nation was negotiating with Billboard and so was Tidal. I stated over and over that they were trying to get it to work in their plan...that they wanted it to chart on BB. I never said that Rihanna's team was greedy. Please quit with putting words in my mouth. You have done that repeatedly throughout this conversation. 

 

[Bebe 16,562]

Just now, Whispering said:

They discussed ways to make it work...ways to make the album count on Billboard, which is what I've stated all along. No, they couldn't get it to work. From HDD:

"According to members of her team, one of the major stumbling blocks to Samsung’s planned giveaway of Rihanna’s forthcoming album, ANTI—as part of the highly publicized $25m deal with the tech giant—is how to make it count on the charts. Assuming, of course, that she puts it out in Q4.

The bible brain trust that decides these things has come up with a new ruling, which turns out to be rather problematic: They’ll count the free offer from Samsung if the coupon can be redeemed for any album—and, although the offer will be wrapped in Rihanna marketing, the coupon must feature type big enough to make it clear that consumers have a choice of album. The back-and-forth between Roc Nation (which is both her label and her management) and the bible over how to execute the promotion has reportedly been fierce, to say the least."

I didn't frame anything. I reported what I have read in several articles on several music media sites. Roc Nation was negotiating with Billboard and so was Tidal. I stated over and over that they were trying to get it to work in their plan...that they wanted it to chart on BB. I never said that Rihanna's team was greedy. Please quit with putting words in my mouth. You have done that repeatedly throughout this conversation. 

 

But your source itself says that they were trying to figure out a way for it to count within Billboards own perimeters. That's hardly negotiation. Sure, they fought hard to try and find a way to get it on the charts, obviously they would have loved it if it counted. That article is months old though, so clearly they stuck to their own plan. Once again it shows that, while charts are important, Roc Nation prioritised profit. 

What I find interesting about your first source is this: "This is just the beginning of how we market albums, how we distribute music to fans, how fans consume music” and also says that soon “everyone else will have to come along for the ride.”

Kinda exactly what I have been saying since the beginning. The climate of the music industry is changing due to piracy and streaming. People want their music for free and labels have to adapt. This was a move that benefited Roc Nation while also benefiting music consumers.

Also you still haven't found anything that supports this claim (which is what I took issue with and what I found utterly ridiculous.)

"Rihanna's team went to Billboard to try to get the sales to count in their charts. Billboard finally came to the agreement that the Samsung sales could count if Samsung made the offer for a free album from anyone, not just Rihanna. That wasn't acceptable for Rihanna's team, so they went with this plan."

If your only argument is "If it was possible Roc Nation would have loved for this album to chart at #1" then of course, I agree. I just thought we were having a more indepth conversation than that.

I'm talking about how this deal was great due to the fact Roc Nation and Rihanna were able to make an album go platinum, making more money than they would have in a normal roll out while also providing consumers with a free album. I'm talking about how, with the changing climate, this sort of thing is going to become more normal and how it is just a step in the evolution of the industry.

I'm also talking about how this chart position doesn't really matter in the end, regardless of how nice it would have been if it was eligible, because the deal with Samsung was about making profit - not about scoring a number one record. Something nicely illustrated by the sources you have posted.

Your point seems to be "Roc Nation would have loved Anti to go #1" which is obvious, but missing the point. They clearly believe that despite the fact that the album's free downloads wouldn't chart, it's a bigger win for them to shift a million records which probably wouldn't have happened without this deal. 

[KURUSHITOVSKA 20,439]

Four Five Seconds? More like Four Hundred Sixty

[NewYorkCity 10,469]

13 hours ago, Son of ARTPOP said:

 

Rihanna earned BIG respect from me with ANTI, tho. The way she released it proves she doesn't give a flying sh*t about the charts, and that's how it should be. It's bored and pressed people that try to make out of the situation something like " She is hiding her flop". She made even companies have disagreements about what to count as sale and what not. If she was desperate for the charts she would've waited and have it released in digital and physical formats simultaneously. 

 

oh come on... she doesn't care about charts? Really?

She hasn't given anything away from free just for the shake of it. ARTPOP was released through an app, for free. BTW was uploaded on youtube, for free. In both cases, it doesn't count for charts or anything.

What did rihanna do? Sell the album to a company (so she gets the money), and make it platinum without having to sell one copy? Releasing it through a floppy streaming service so her boss and the creator of that mess can get some promotion? And while they are at it, those streams count for charts. Is the album on spotify? Oh no, it isn't. 

And then she releases it on itunes on day later, just in time for the second week!! So every sale will be for that week, and then BAM #1.

She has won in every aspect with this. Don't act like she is doing it just for her fans and to give music away from free.

If you wanna say (as you did) that it is an smart bussines move, then I agree. But I don't want to read anyone saying that she did this for the art and to be kind to the world.

And everything on this era is planned to cover the flop. The way the album was released, the platinum thing (it is not her fault, of course, if RIAA wants to count that, but let's not act as if this was done without thinking on that. And then you see her "Thanks navy! ANTI is platinum in 24 hours! omg!!" and it is RIDICULOUS). The fact that she put the tour on sale before the album release. The fact that she didn't include the original singles of the album, the samsung deal... everything.

Signed: a person who has every rihanna album at home. not a blinded hater.

[eifulien 2,287]

36 minutes ago, NewYorkCity said:

oh come on... she doesn't care about charts? Really?

She hasn't given anything away from free just for the shake of it. ARTPOP was released through an app, for free. BTW was uploaded on youtube, for free. In both cases, it doesn't count for charts or anything.

What did rihanna do? Sell the album to a company (so she gets the money), and make it platinum without having to sell one copy? Releasing it through a floppy streaming service so her boss and the creator of that mess can get some promotion? And while they are at it, those streams count for charts. Is the album on spotify? Oh no, it isn't. 

And then she releases it on itunes on day later, just in time for the second week!! So every sale will be for that week, and then BAM #1.

She has won in every aspect with this. Don't act like she is doing it just for her fans and to give music away from free.

If you wanna say (as you did) that it is an smart bussines move, then I agree. But I don't want to read anyone saying that she did this for the art and to be kind to the world.

And everything on this era is planned to cover the flop. The way the album was released, the platinum thing (it is not her fault, of course, if RIAA wants to count that, but let's not act as if this was done without thinking on that. And then you see her "Thanks navy! ANTI is platinum in 24 hours! omg!!" and it is RIDICULOUS). The fact that she put the tour on sale before the album release. The fact that she didn't include the original singles of the album, the samsung deal... everything.

Signed: a person who has every rihanna album at home. not a blinded hater.

I don't really disgaree with your post, but I think you misinterpreted some of my points. My respect for her comes from the fact that she made smart business moves to protect her album, and she succeeded. You know, that's her part of the story, and unfortuantely even though it's supposed to be art, it's actually a culture industry. Meaning a lot of cash is involved. But I don't imply anywhere that my admiration comes from her being kind and doing it for the art or anything remotely close to that. This is Rihanna we're talking about.

Still my point is valid that ANTI was put there for free for the fans - and that was our part of the story, we got the music to enjoy or dislike. I just consider all these numerous threads discussing ANTI's performance out of focus. Nobody cares to talk about the music, the important things are the charts and the critic scores (+ the occasional bashing). And these posts come from the people who were claiming (but only when we talk about Gaga ofc!) that it's not the commercial performance that matters and that we should stop being obsessed with it, that we should take the music as the art, not as the industry, the business (which ofc are statements implied by Gaga herself, and we automatically adopt them but may people fail to actually realise the meaning!)

It's also very silly that so many fans here bring up Gaga into the conversation. " ANTI no longer an obstacle a threat" or whatever, Rihanna is out, now only Beyoncé remains. Like WTF? Rihanna is in her own lane and is very far from Gaga. She has her fair share of accomplishments and records reached throughout her career, has had many hits and is up there among the best for better or worse. But Rihanna was never in Gaga's way, and I personally don't see her ever approaching the level of artistry that Gaga has so why so many are pressed and happy to see RIhanna "flop"? Of course we perfectly know that artistry doesn't translate into chart success. Which is yet another reason that people here need to stop being so obsessed with it.

For my part, I love ANTI, and I believe Rihanna has achieved a lot with the album. It has a big artistic growth, while still keeping some of what made her RiRi. It's not the typical dance pop single + 10 fillers album that she used to release. It's just doing it her own way, and that's why I love it. It feels personal on the majority of the songs. I respect her for stepping out of HER box and making something different that for me turned out to be very good. Not saying ANTI should be everyone's cup of tea, and I'm definitely not implying ANTI is some experimental stuff that just people don't understand. No! But when I look at her career, and her previous albums I clearly see that she aspired to do more with the music and succeeded. She may never reach a higher place or she may climb even more in the future, I dunno. But all that doesn't take away from my enjoyment of the album. She shines right now for me and that's all that matters. And she can shine along with anyone else.

Gaga's achievements and artistry are under no threat whatsoever and I don't think we need to put other artists's material down so that we feel better about Gaga (actually mainly about ourselves... #sorrynotsorry) 

[eifulien 2,287]

Edit: I think most of your post is a reaction of other members' posts and mine also became the same, cause I don't mind the points you brought up. Mess, we just tell each other that the others need to chill down on the delusional praise and the unfounded hate.