Macklemore disses Iggy + Miley

[Jed 7,716]

3 hours ago, Lance said:

Iggy doesn't even dress like a caracature Black person the way Miley (who I love) and Lil Debbie, Kreayshawn, V-nasty, Chanel West Coast, RiFF RaFF, etc does

 

Aka you still have no problem with a white woman dressing like a caricature... 

[PaperIz 7,346]

3 hours ago, PunkTheFunk said:

Cultural appropriation doesn't work both ways.

"There is no such thing as reverse racism. [...] In summary, because minority groups don’t have inter-generational privilege we can wield against whites (thereby limiting their possible wealth, educational, employment, and/or environmental outcomes), we really have no way of being racist against them. Racism requires power. Without it negative racial feelings might be discriminatory but they certainly aren’t racist. Any racial animus held by minority groups toward whites cannot be set apart on its own as an initial offense because we have already experienced centuries of targeted racial oppression from whites. So, the point of reverse racism is moot.

Now, cultural appropriation is the act of taking the very physical, mental, or social features of a minority group which are used to belittle, mischaracterize, and otherwise isolate them and embody those features for personal social entertainment or monetary gain. When Katy Perry – a white girl from Santa Barbara – dons bejeweled grill pieces, long fake nails, and gelled down ‘baby hairs’ to promote her new video for the song ‘How We Do,’ she isn’t appreciating ‘black culture’. She can’t be because she only features stark stereotypes of black women in her imagery. In the new video, while satirizing black women, she answers a phone call from her friend “Jessica Thot” or “Jessica That Ho Over There.” The term”THOT” is extremely demeaning to black women and has been used by street harassers seeking to devalue black women’s bodies. Surely Perry knows that.

Minority groups can mock white people. They can mimic dominant culture. They can even completely assimilate into “respectable behavior” if they so choose. There are levels of social benefits and costs to doing so. But, minority groups will never be able to appropriate ‘white culture’ in a way that is harmful or damaging to whites in the aggregate. White complexity is never denied nor questioned while minority group identities are countered with dangerous and even deadly caricatures."

http://watercoolerconvos.com/2014/08/13/racism-doesnt-work-both-ways-and-neither-does-cultural-appropriation/

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I keep quoting articles because I'm not good at putting this into words myself

 

I'm just confused who made these rules. Racism is when you're against someone in any way because of their race. Reverse racism doesn't exist, because it's just racism. Also culture is meant to be shared, that's how culture happens. And if you can steal culture one way, you can steal it another way. How can you say it only works one way? That doesn't make any logical sense.

[Evan Peters 10,738]

 when i saw that white privilege thing i rolled my eyes so hard. i'm so sick of these white people with the most obnoxious amount of white guilt trying to get cookies or some **** from the black community. It's so try hard. 

and what the **** does he or any SJW think a culture is? A culture became a culture because it was shared. I get there's certain aspects that one shouldn't touch but what have mily and iggy done that's stealing? Shaking their ass?? Miley wearing dreadlocks? 

and what's the point of brining up elivs? he's ****ing dead  reminds me of those annoying people on tumblr who feel the need to spew how flapper culture was stolen from black people and reblog that post of things that muslims invented despite 90% of the **** on the list not being invented by them  

This tumblr mentality has got to stop. 

[Higher 2,406]

 

[Alcina Dimitrescu 1,156]

2 hours ago, PunkTheFunk said:

If she's changed since that tweet then more power to her. Once she stops rapping in her "blaccent" I'll be fully convinced.

is nicki appropiating white culture when she raps with the british accent?

[PunkTheFunk 124,406]

3 hours ago, Dominic Marc said:

It just seems strange.  A white person is not allowed to rap or to do anything affiliated with what is classed as 'Black culture'  because they don't care about about black struggles? 

That sounds as silly as saying 'You aren't allowed to wear a rainbow jumper because you're not gay and you don't understand our struggles'.  

Surely these artists should be praised for wanting to take inspiration from and putting 'Black culture'  in the media even more?  More than Nicki anyway who puts the contradictory 'white-image' into the media. 

Also,  in order to really look at this were going to need to categorise what exactly is 'Black culture' and what is 'White culture'  because there aren't glaring ways to differentiate the two. 

When will white people stop getting generalised as racist for something their ancestors did a long time ago that we too feel as equally disgusted in.  Understand not all white people feel this way but not all black people are fighting for equality either.  

Let me give you an example:

You're a black woman.  You're shamed for wearing your hair naturally. You walk into a job interview as a black woman with dreadlocks and you don't get hired. Your told your hair is nappy and unkempt and that it looks ugly. Your natural body features (plump lips, dark skin) have been the target of ridicule by white people for centuries. And so you straighten and dye your hair blonde and put in colored contacts (i.e. Nicki Minaj) because that's the only option you have for getting ahead in a world that thinks your real self is ugly.  

And then Kylie Jenner comes along and posts a pic of herself, tanned, plump-lipped, wearing dreadlocks and everyone praises her. She's edgy. She's beautiful. She's exotic. Everyone now wants to get "Kylie Jenner lips." A white woman with your features is beautiful and what are you? You're ugly, according to society's standards, and if you keep your dreadlocks you're never going to get that job. Meanwhile, Kylie is using dreadlocks to get 1.4 million likes on Instagram.

This is cultural appropriation.

Let me give you another example: 

You're a Native American man. Your ancestral land has been ransacked and bastardized by Europeans. You've been told time and time again that your culture is inferior. You've been forced to assimilate into white society and give up your cultural identity.

And then a white girl wears a native headdress to Coachella and everyone praises her. She's making a "fashion statement." The culture that your people were killed and murdered over is now a white girl's 'accessory'.

This is cultural appropriation.

I'm not calling all white people racist. You don't have to apologize for what your ancestors did. But what you need to do as a white person is check your privilege. As a white person you have certain socio-economic advantages over people of color whether you acknowledge it or not. It's not your fault. Just try to have a little compassion for someone else's struggle; you can't decide what a PoC is allowed to be offended by.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with white people appreciating PoC cultures. It becomes a problem when white people exploit them for their own personal gain and use elements from a PoC culture outside of their cultural context.

2 hours ago, PaperIz said:

I'm just confused who made these rules. Racism is when you're against someone in any way because of their race. Reverse racism doesn't exist, because it's just racism. Also culture is meant to be shared, that's how culture happens. And if you can steal culture one way, you can steal it another way. How can you say it only works one way? That doesn't make any logical sense.

Trying to define terms is a bit of a slippery slope but I'll try my best. I think you're confusing racism with discrimination. If a black person is discriminatory against a white person (when white people have the upper hand in society), the worst thing that might happen is that a white person gets offended. When white people are discriminatory against black people, it ends in slavery, institutionalized racism, poverty, lynch mobs, mass incarceration, police shootings, etc. etc.  Discrimination is always wrong, but clearly you can see that one is way way worse than the other.

I agree that culture is meant to be shared. But it doesn't make sense for a black person to steal white culture when white culture is the dominant culture. Stealing from the dominant culture is simply known as "assimilating" or "fitting in." 

...

I'm not an expert on any of this nor do I claim to be. This is just my opinion. 

[Mast 980]

4 hours ago, Dominic Marc said:

It just seems strange.  A white person is not allowed to rap or to do anything affiliated with what is classed as 'Black culture'  because they don't care about about black struggles? 

That sounds as silly as saying 'You aren't allowed to wear a rainbow jumper because you're not gay and you don't understand our struggles'.  

Surely these artists should be praised for wanting to take inspiration from and putting 'Black culture'  in the media even more?  More than Nicki anyway who puts the contradictory 'white-image' into the media. 

Also,  in order to really look at this were going to need to categorise what exactly is 'Black culture' and what is 'White culture'  because there aren't glaring ways to differentiate the two. 

When will white people stop getting generalised as racist for something their ancestors did a long time ago that we too feel as equally disgusted in.  Understand not all white people feel this way but not all black people are fighting for equality either.  

Black jargon and culture are not an accessory. It's not about not understanding struggles either; it's about claiming parts of black culture and using them to look "cool" and "edgy". We would call a black girl "ratchet" for twerking, but once Miley did it, it blew up and everyone started doing it. When black people talk with a "blaccent", they are uneducated and unintelligent, but when white people do it (like Iggy) it's trendy, appealing, and fun. Heck, even Gaga is guilty of this. When black people wear dreads, they're ugly, trashy, and are fired from their jobs. But, when Gaga does it, she's cool and a fashion icon. The problem is that white people get to pick and choose which parts of other cultures they like, and benefit from them. See the drug culture as an example. White people on average use every major drug more often than PoC (except for crack), yet, we associate drugs with blacks and latinos. We incarcerate PoC more often than white people for drug abuse and intent to sell, even when white users outnumber black/brown users. 

Also, racism never stopped existing. The truth is that everyone single person who exists today has prejudices that they may or may not be aware of, but these prejudices become racism when it involves a caste of power. That being said, white Americans are racist because the system works in their favor. Racist is not a word that we should be scared of. It's a word we need to understand and embrace in order to realize that not all of us get the same opportunities as everybody else, and that we must work together in order to fix the disparity of the American social and justice systems. Slavery in the U.S. may have ended a long time ago, but its effects are still very real. Communities and schools are still segregated by color, with impoverished areas usually also being areas heavy in PoC. Employers are more likely to hire a white man with a criminal record than black man with equal qualifications and a clean record. Explain to me how all of this is not racist.

 

 

But to give you the answer you probably wanted to hear, white people are allowed to rap, as long as they don't try to pick and choose out of black culture and claim elements of it as their own without experiencing the consequences and bad names that PoC experience. 

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

The only diss track I've ever liked was this gem:

 

 

[Mast 980]

8 minutes ago, LebaneseDude said:

The only diss track I've ever liked was this gem:

 

Only because Gaga doesn't actually name anyone. Classy bitch. 

Ortenberg, you can suck my ****
Walk bitch you ain’t lady gaga

Nicopanda got style trick
Cathy Horyn, your style ain’t ****
Walk a mile in these foot high heels
I run in these you ain’t running ****
 

 

 

Um.....

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

8 minutes ago, Mast said:

Ortenberg, you can suck my ****
Walk bitch you ain’t lady gaga

Nicopanda got style trick
Cathy Horyn, your style ain’t ****
Walk a mile in these foot high heels
I run in these you ain’t running ****

Guess I just got clocked. 

It's been a while since I listened to the track and those names aren't familiar to me so don't judge. 

Loophole: Those aren't fellow musicians 

[Whispering 18,865]

1 hour ago, PunkTheFunk said:

Let me give you an example:

You're a black woman.  You're shamed for wearing your hair naturally. You walk into a job interview as a black woman with dreadlocks and you don't get hired. Your told your hair is nappy and unkempt and that it looks ugly. Your natural body features (plump lips, dark skin) have been the target of ridicule by white people for centuries. And so you straighten and dye your hair blonde and put in colored contacts (i.e. Nicki Minaj) because that's the only option you have for getting ahead in a world that thinks your real self is ugly.  

And then Kylie Jenner comes along and posts a pic of herself, tanned, plump-lipped, wearing dreadlocks and everyone praises her. She's edgy. She's beautiful. She's exotic. Everyone now wants to get "Kylie Jenner lips." A white woman with your features is beautiful and what are you? You're ugly, according to society's standards, and if you keep your dreadlocks you're never going to get that job. Meanwhile, Kylie is using dreadlocks to get 1.4 million likes on Instagram.

This is cultural appropriation.

Okay, let's look at this. A white woman going into a professional interview in the businessworld with dreadlocks would be at a severe disadvantage. That hairstyle is not seen as a professional look. Now, if you are going in for a job in the creative arts world or at Google, that hairstyle woukd be perfectly acceptable for anyone. Certain hairstyles in certain business environments are simply not looked at as desirable. 

Kylie wasn't applying for a job at an accounting firm. Her profession in life is in the entertainment and fashion industry. Dreadlocks, multi colored hair, or any other unusual hairstyles are seen as perfectly acceptable. Fuller lips have long been associated with sex. Just like the color red or bigger hips. These attributes appeal to men at a subconscious level. Decades ago, everyone loved Julia Robert's big lips...and they are completely natural. They frame her gorgeous smile, but they also say "young and sexy". People's lips get thinner as the age, so bigger lips are seen as a sign of youth and vitality. Women have known this for centuries, before fillers were ever around. That's why they've worn bright lipstick and glosses. 

Sometimes people see things that aren't there. Sometimes people label things as cultural appropriation, when there are other reasons for following a fashion trend or an age old desire to look a certain way. 

[MANiCURE1295 8,673]

If you LISTEN TO THE SONG you will hear what I think he's actually trying to do. HE is walking through a protest as walking into a building and I think as soon as the "diss" verse starts it's what a "protestor" is saying to him. And that would make sense because people have said this forever. People claimed that Elvis stole black culture due to his music influences. Miley with the twerking and dred locks, and Iggy for appropriating black culture. He has a whole verse that I think is from the protestors point of view. I don't actually think he's "dissing" them at all. He is simply stating what anyone who thinks those things would say. Yall just need to listen to the song and interpret for yourself but I really don't think this is what you guys and everyone else thinks it is. 

Edit: Even at the end of that verse, before the verse where he gets interrupted by the lady in a diner(?), I think there's a point where he responds to the protestor and ends it with "why are you out here protesting, whats the intention, whats the intention, whats the intention"

[PunkTheFunk 124,406]

1 hour ago, Whispering said:

Okay, let's look at this. A white woman going into a professional interview in the businessworld with dreadlocks would be at a severe disadvantage. That hairstyle is not seen as a professional look. Now, if you are going in for a job in the creative arts world or at Google, that hairstyle woukd be perfectly acceptable for anyone. Certain hairstyles in certain business environments are simply not looked at as desirable. 

Kylie wasn't applying for a job at an accounting firm. Her profession in life is in the entertainment and fashion industry. Dreadlocks, multi colored hair, or any other unusual hairstyles are seen as perfectly acceptable. Fuller lips have long been associated with sex. Just like the color red or bigger hips. These attributes appeal to men at a subconscious level. Decades ago, everyone loved Julia Robert's big lips...and they are completely natural. They frame her gorgeous smile, but they also say "young and sexy". People's lips get thinner as the age, so bigger lips are seen as a sign of youth and vitality. Women have known this for centuries, before fillers were ever around. That's why they've worn bright lipstick and glosses. 

Sometimes people see things that aren't there. Sometimes people label things as cultural appropriation, when there are other reasons for following a fashion trend or an age old desire to look a certain way. 

Why must natural black hair and hairstyles be seen as unprofessional in the first place?

You said it yourself: Kylie is in the entertainment and fashion industry.  She took a hairstyle from a marginalized group -- a group that has been banned from the military and fired from their jobs for wearing their hair naturally  -- and used it for her own financial gain. She benefits and profits as a white woman with institutional power and is praised by everyone for starting a trend. When a black woman does the same, they are ridiculed. Zendaya wears her hair in dreads at the Oscars and people say she smells like patchouli oil. Solange wears her hair naturally and she is slammed by critics for being unkempt and looking like a homeless person. This is what I mean by cultural appropriation.

You said "dreadlocks, multi colored hair, or any other unusual hairstyles are seen as perfectly acceptable." Yes, only when they are on white models. Which is exactly why very few black women in the fashion industry wear their hair naturally.

Spoiler

How this thread went from Macklemore to a discussion about hair I will never know

 

[PunkTheFunk 124,406]

1 hour ago, Mast said:

Black jargon and culture are not an accessory. It's not about not understanding struggles either; it's about claiming parts of black culture and using them to look "cool" and "edgy". We would call a black girl "ratchet" for twerking, but once Miley did it, it blew up and everyone started doing it. When black people talk with a "blaccent", they are uneducated and unintelligent, but when white people do it (like Iggy) it's trendy, appealing, and fun. Heck, even Gaga is guilty of this. When black people wear dreads, they're ugly, trashy, and are fired from their jobs. But, when Gaga does it, she's cool and a fashion icon. The problem is that white people get to pick and choose which parts of other cultures they like, and benefit from them. See the drug culture as an example. White people on average use every major drug more often than PoC (except for crack), yet, we associate drugs with blacks and latinos. We incarcerate PoC more often than white people for drug abuse and intent to sell, even when white users outnumber black/brown users. 

Also, racism never stopped existing. The truth is that everyone single person who exists today has prejudices that they may or may not be aware of, but these prejudices become racism when it involves a caste of power. That being said, white Americans are racist because the system works in their favor. Racist is not a word that we should be scared of. It's a word we need to understand and embrace in order to realize that not all of us get the same opportunities as everybody else, and that we must work together in order to fix the disparity of the American social and justice systems. Slavery in the U.S. may have ended a long time ago, but its effects are still very real. Communities and schools are still segregated by color, with impoverished areas usually also being areas heavy in PoC. Employers are more likely to hire a white man with a criminal record than black man with equal qualifications and a clean record. Explain to me how all of this is not racist.

 

 

But to give you the answer you probably wanted to hear, white people are allowed to rap, as long as they don't try to pick and choose out of black culture and claim elements of it as their own without experiencing the consequences and bad names that PoC experience. 

[StrawberryBlond 14,820]

Shame on you, Macklemore. You showed such promise. You gave white rappers a good name. You gave white people a good name. But after you blew up, you turned into such a pretentious suck-up with no pride and you started demonising your own race. First, you practically apologise to the black community for winning a Grammy over a black rapper. That is ridiculous. That would never happen in reverse. Music is music, it's for everyone. It's no one's to own or steal. You worked hard, you made a good album, you deserve to be awarded for it. Rappers aren't automatically talented because they're black. The current ones are extremely mediocre, with very few exceptions (where did all that 90's talent go?). You're one of the good ones, you deserve accolades. By saying that as you're white, you don't quite deserve it, you are stomping on the dreams of any talented white kid who wants to rap. You're dismissing a white person's hard work. You're demonising white people for being white. And now you release a song that generalises all whites in a negative light. Even though you only talk about white Americans, you generalise the entire race as operating the same way regardless of location or culture. You accuse fellow artists of being racist and stealing a killing a culture when it was in no way their intention (and Elvis is dead and can't even defend himself, classy). Elements of these artists may have been problematic but to call them racists is slanderous and hateful and they must have been extremely saddened by this (I mean, if I felt it). Words hurt - as an SJW warrior such as yourself should know. Then you round it all off by insulting the parents of the kids who like your music (yeah, most decent parents don't want their kids listening to violent, misogynistic rap that sends bad messages and for good reason!) and doubting the empathy and motivations of white people for no reason other than it's the stereotype to believe that all whites are selfish and evil.

How dare you use the black community to get people talking about you after your new work flopped. How dare you try to sucker the black community into becoming fans of yours through the tried and tested method of speaking up for their rights (as if that's the only way to make black people like you). How dare you doubt, demonise and make slanderous accusations towards your own race, relying on the most typical of stereotypes as if they're true of all whites. UNACCEPTABLE. I usually don't use phrases like "go f yourself" but nowhere has it been more appropriate than here.

Just now, PunkTheFunk said:

Let me give you an example:

You're a black woman.  You're shamed for wearing your hair naturally. You walk into a job interview as a black woman with dreadlocks and you don't get hired. Your told your hair is nappy and unkempt and that it looks ugly. Your natural body features (plump lips, dark skin) have been the target of ridicule by white people for centuries. And so you straighten and dye your hair blonde and put in colored contacts (i.e. Nicki Minaj) because that's the only option you have for getting ahead in a world that thinks your real self is ugly.  

And then Kylie Jenner comes along and posts a pic of herself, tanned, plump-lipped, wearing dreadlocks and everyone praises her. She's edgy. She's beautiful. She's exotic. Everyone now wants to get "Kylie Jenner lips." A white woman with your features is beautiful and what are you? You're ugly, according to society's standards, and if you keep your dreadlocks you're never going to get that job. Meanwhile, Kylie is using dreadlocks to get 1.4 million likes on Instagram.

This is cultural appropriation.

That's quite a sore point for me. First off, I highly doubt an employer would say such a thing to a client (I think you overexaggerated for effect there) and there is absolutely no proof in these situations that the hair is the reason for them not getting the job. And also, Kylie has more haters than fans and most people think her lips look ridiculous (as they do Kim's butt), but that is rarely touched upon because people are so determined to paint whites in a negative way. But that's beside the point. I'm white with red hair and being from the UK, we have had a strong tradition for making fun of redheads. Boys tend to get it worse but girls suffer too. And if we have freckles, all the more. I never suffered anything that bad but I have heard stories from others of stuff as severe as their hair being set on fire and in very rare cases, suicides as a result of bullying have happened. Myself, I endured being told my hair was ugly and having random people shout "ginger!" at me. I had chewing gum and bus ticket clippings put in my hair so often that pulling my ponytail around me and planning where to walk and sit became a daily occurance. My worst ever experience was when I had to stand on a crowded bus in front of this young boy who looked me straight in the eye the whole journey while chanting "ginger pubes" over and over loudly and no stepped in to stop him. Indeed, taunts over this private area of our bodies is very embarrassing, upsetting and degrading to us. it's an issue we feel very self conscious about. I frequently wonder if this is the reason why no man will date me and if no man wants a redhaired woman in general as so few say they're attracted to us (apart from black ones, weirdly!).

The thing is, growing up, there were occasional redheaded women that the media did boost up as attractive. It was such a joy to see Geri Halliwell being a famous redheaded woman being called hot growing up because I had no one else to convince me that it was possible. It made me have hope, actually, that there people who found red hair attractive, but I can understand why some might have felt annoyed that redheads could only be attractive if they were celebrities. There is also very little redheads in media. I remember when I heard that Damian Lewis was the first redheaded man to feature in the lead role on a primetime tv series and that the rare redheaded characters in movies tend to be villains or weak and cowardly. When we are represented, there's nearly always some crack about our hair, even if it's in good jest. Also, red hair is naturally very wild and tangled. Redheads with straight hair have purposely straightened it - it doesn't fall like that naturally. And one of the things that I always remember hearing growing up was that I should straighten my hair and I've heard it said to other redheads to. Now, this was back in the early-mid 00's when super straight hair was the fashion for girls (in the UK anyway) and I don't hear that suggestion as much now, but there is no denying that we have certainly been told to change the cosistency of our hair before as it has a tendency to look "messy." Redheads usually hate their hair when they're young and go through a self-hate phase. A lot of us start straightening and dying it (boys too) even though it doesn't suit us. Some of us use tanning products too so we don't get teased for our pale skin, even though tanned skin on a redhead doesn't look good (check out Lindsay Lohan's blonde/brunette and tanned looks over the years and look up how Nicola Roberts suffered severe self-hate after being taunted by the media for her hair). I never fell into this trap but I was sure tempted. But thankfully, some of us learn to love our natural look as we get older. But not all of us do. And I think the overall lack of understanding from non-redheads, while not as lacking as it used to be, could still do with some work. It's all too often dismissed because we're white, you see. It's not racially based, therefore, it's not as serious. But as someone who's gone through it, I can honestly say that I completely understand what black women go through in regards to their hair.

And as for the tanned skin thing, it's a weird quirk of white people. Even racists want to tan. It's a weird notion that will never truly be understood, even by us. But the fact is that whites are teased by other whites if they look too pale in their eyes. I've even had my complexion referred to as "disgusting" by other whites. Thank goodness tanning beds are almost completely dead now in favour of safe spray tanning because the amount of melanoma that whites contract just so they feel attractive and not be teased is disastrous. Blacks can endure putting on cancerogenic skin bleaching creams to feel attractive, whites can endure contracting cancer from too much sun to feel attractive. It's all swings and roundabouts. When it comes to beauty, you'll find that the opposite is generally what's considered attractive, regardless of race or culture. Because we all crave exoticness, whoever we are, therefore, we crave an appearance that is unnatural for us and therefore, embark upon unnatural ways to achieve it.

I say all this because you need to realise that it's not just black that have problems relating to beauty - all races do. And some may be suffering in ways that you never considered.