Melech 9,900 Posted December 27, 2015 Author Share Posted December 27, 2015 5 minutes ago, Fays1 said: All violent verses speak for self defense and im not saying this because this is not the opinion of scholars, im saying this because this is the facts that I checked and can prove to you. Apostasy and homosexuality is not even mentioned in the Quran and im not sure what sword verses your talking about. This verse is not talking to muslims, it was god talking to the angels telling them to cast terror witch means fear in the hearts of the unbelievers of mecca who had a big army that were on their way to kill and create a war with muslims.. then god commanded the angels to fight in the war to help muslims. The exact verse after it offers peace: "If you (disbelievers) seek the victory, the defeat has come to you. And if you desist from hostilities, it is best for you; but if you return to war, We will return. Qur'an (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)" Qur'an (26:165-166) - "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing" Bukhari (72:774) - "The Prophet cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, 'Turn them out of your houses .' The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman." http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/026-qmt.php#026.165 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus 34,380 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 11 minutes ago, Fays1 said: All violent verses speak for self defense and im not saying this because this is not the opinion of scholars, im saying this because this is the facts that I checked and can prove to you. Apostasy and homosexuality is not even mentioned in the Quran and im not sure what sword verses your talking about. They are mentioned.. Apostasy many times.. (And btw I know that homosexuality is ambiguous in the Qur'an, since, just like the infamous glorification and simultaneous rejection of wine, homosexual desire is implied in visions of the afterlife. Doesn't remove the rejection passages of wine/homosexuality though..) But look, I respect the Qur'an, I am not against it in any way, I study it as objectively as I can, but that also means I don't believe there's one unifying message, simply because there are many contradictions that are unavoidable (to me), especially when you use literary analytical tools that reveal how the "Qur'an" changed over time. These things don't make the work worthless to me, to the contrary, it makes it interesting. I'm quite familiar with the self defense interpretation and I don't reject it, but I think it's incomplete and doesn't reflect all that's to be found in the Qur'an. So you don't need to prove it to me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmm 879 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 22 minutes ago, Didymus said: They are mentioned.. Apostasy many times.. But look, I respect the Qur'an, I am not against it in any way, I study it as objectively as I can, but that also means I don't believe there's one unifying message, simply because there are many contradictions that are unavoidable (to me), especially when you use literary analytical tools that reveal how the "Qur'an" changed over time. These things don't make the work worthless to me, to the contrary, it makes it interesting. I'm quite familiar with the self defense interpretation and I don't reject it, but I think it's incomplete and doesn't reflect all that's to be found in the Qur'an. So you don't need to prove it to me No, apostasy is not mentioned in the Quran.. I understand what your saying but I as a muslim do not believe that there is violence and im not an apologetic muslim as I use facts to back up my claim. I know I dont need to prove anything were just having a conversation and I know you respect all religions im not attacking you for what you said. 23 minutes ago, Simon said: Qur'an (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)" Qur'an (26:165-166) - "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing" Bukhari (72:774) - "The Prophet cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, 'Turn them out of your houses .' The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman." So you just ignored and not acknowledge everything I said and think you can move on to something else? specially that you were making fun of me! thats what you always do though. Bukhari is not from the Quran, it is hadiths written hundred of years after islam and the prophet. The other two verses you mention do not talk about homosexuality, it talks about a city that existed before islam that had people openly cheating and having sexual acts with everyone witch created a big rape problem and babies not having anyone to take care of them. These two verses do not tell muslims to act in a violent way towards homosexuals and we are talking about violence in the Quran. The prophet maid was actually a transgender and has two friends who were transgender that guarded his coffin inside the mosque after he died. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus 34,380 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Just now, Fays1 said: No apostasy or homosexuality is not even mentioned in the Quran.. I understand what your saying but I as a muslim do not believe that there is violence and im not an apologetic muslim as I use facts to back up my claim. I know I dont need to prove anything to you were just having a conversation and I know you respect all religions im not attacking you for what you said. Well, I agree (based on your previous post) that a specific punishment for homosexuality and apostasy is never mentioned in the Qur'an. That's the truth indeed. Doesn't mean homosexuality and apostasy aren't mentioned and not implying violence (that's all I meant: to an OUTSIDER who knows nothing, passages may look violent, that's all) because a casual reading (especially of certain passages) surely could convince someone that the Qur'an is against homosexuals and apostates. On the other hand though.. influential hadith are enough for many Muslims to conclude that Muhammad himself WAS convinced that homosexuals and apostates needed to be murdered. So.. how do you deal with that? Do you only accept the Qur'an and reject the validity of all hadith? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmm 879 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 5 minutes ago, Didymus said: influential hadith are enough for many Muslims to conclude that Muhammad himself WAS convinced that homosexuals and apostates needed to be murdered. So.. how do you deal with that? Do you only accept the Qur'an and reject the validity of all hadith? I do not believe in any hadith the 1) contradicts the Quran 2) create a law without a source from the Quran. If all muslims go with this rule, no violent can be justified in the name of islam. Also, according to many hadiths, the prophet maid was actually a transgender and has two friends who were transgender that guarded his coffin inside the mosque after he died. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus 34,380 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Just now, Fays1 said: I do not believe in any hadith the 1) contradicts the Quran 2) create a law without a source from the Quran. If all muslims go with this rule, no violent can be justified in the name of islam. Accurate, I think. Though violence could still be justified in the name of Islam through the channel of Allah's intervention (example: in the Qur'an there's a passage of an adultress being locked up in a house until she basically dies or Allah kills her in an unnatural way). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmm 879 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 18 minutes ago, Didymus said: Accurate, I think. Though violence could still be justified in the name of Islam through the channel of Allah's intervention (example: in the Qur'an there's a passage of an adultress being locked up in a house until she basically dies or Allah kills her in an unnatural way). I studied alot of verses and can answer anyone of them easily but I honestly never heard of that verse so I admit I cant comment on it specially that it will need alot of research. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolev 867 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 1 hour ago, Simon said: I cant take it anymore Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melech 9,900 Posted December 27, 2015 Author Share Posted December 27, 2015 Just now, Dolev said: I cant take it anymore I mean in the end it is ISrael טיפש Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus 34,380 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 17 minutes ago, Fays1 said: I studied alot of verses and can answer anyone of them easily but I honestly never heard of that verse so I admit I cant comment on it specially that it will need alot of research. 4:15 "Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse of your women - bring against them four [witnesses] from among you. And if they testify, confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them or Allah ordains for them [another] way." I know that some translations add a specific interpretation for "another way" (as in: it's a way towards freedom) but I consider that a deviation from the source text, especially since I can't really imagine how Allah could intervene on the woman's behalf in this situation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolev 867 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 27 minutes ago, Simon said: I mean in the end it is ISrael טיפש noooooo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
politicqxs 358 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 They die together tbh.. giving up sodomy and moving to 🇦🇪 converting to ☪ and marrying four girls Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo 327 Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I feel like we should just give up on the Middle East. They have been fighting among each other for like centuries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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