87-year old jailed for Holocaust denial in Germany

[Mobster 14,604]

On 16.11.2015, 19:41:56, Morphine Prince said:

Doesn't matter. I don't think people should be put in jail for speech, even if it's deemed hateful. 

I mean, seriously? 10 months to an 87 year old woman? 

 

You can go to jail in the US for defamation... that's speech, too, you know?

[Benji 20,113]

People fail to realise this remains part of the reparations since WW2 and is an extremely important process for Germany and the world to go through.

Just because the crime is over, doesn't mean the damage wasn't done and can be denied to it's victims.

Anyway, good on Germany for enforcing this.

[Morphine Prince 109,680]

4 hours ago, amenvodka said:

According to the statutes of the United Nations a genocide is defined as so:

… any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

All of these were VERY popular techniques employed in the wars against Korea, Vietnam and Iraq. I guess you could argue that the "missing" (which is also debatable) intent to eradicate an ethnicity would speak in favor for the USA, yet all of the atrocities were still committed strategically and purposefully, and definetly not by chance.

If you feel like having a long read I'd recomment this here: http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-united-states-of-genocide-putting-the-us-on-trial-for-genocide-against-the-peoples-of-korea-laos-viet-nam-cambodia-iraq-and-elsewhere/5352227

Also, this on-going police brutality situation and how black people are over-proportionally killed by the federal police seems to have genocidal tendencies. To me at least.

This is very arguable. I see your point though. 

I disagree on the police brutality having genocidal tendencies. 

[imwoahvicky 4,248]

On 11/16/2015, 1:50:52, Morphine Prince said:

..... ok. 

This crosses a dangerous line imo. What's next? What if religious beliefs are deemed hateful? Are they gonna start jailing pastors too? 

Kind of agree with this.

I don't give a **** if you're racist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. As long as you don't discriminate to others and me.

If you don't believe in gay people/don't agree with it, so be it.

As long as you don't phyiscally/emotionally discriminate and abuse those people then keep it to yourself, you know? 

 

[Morphine Prince 109,680]

2 hours ago, hmlswine said:

You can go to jail in the US for defamation... that's speech, too, you know?

And the UN has said defamation laws violate freedom of expression before. 

There is an ongoing debate on defamation laws in the US as well. 

Nice try. 

[Warholian 6,880]

On November 16, 2015 at 1:33:49 PM, Simon said:

Especially Germany has a reason to do so. It was the country that slaughtered millions of Jews and hundreds of thousands Romani and Slavs. 

it's not harmless thought. I hurts people. 

Seriously if my grandma heard what that woman said, she would break our in tears. 

it's not a belief, it's hate speech. She often speaks for the Nazi party in Germany. 

 

Should it be illegal to say ******, fag, dyke, chink, gook? Should it be illegal to deny the story of 9/11? Should it be illegal to sympathize with nazi ideals? Should it be illegal to hang a confederate flag on your front porch?

What you're talking about is the removal of free speech - now that's harmful. Imprisonment and fining for a belief is ridiculous and incredibly awful. 

[Rumbold 517]

thousands of people are marching the streets in dresden, leipzig and even berlin, week by week, claiming publicly the holocaust never happened among other things. many among them are youngsters growing up with those beliefs. lies can spread quickly, and if you dont live in germany there is almost no way for you to observe the course of recent events and the hate and misinformation rising across all social classes, especially with the refugee crisis at hand. dont be fooled into thinking we've grown out of it.

liberal germans are especially sensitive when it comes to the holocaust as it happened so recently. imprisoning an old woman for denying it is a strong sign, perhaps too strong.

[Spyro 8,438]

I deny 9/11 and I'm going to jail.

How ridiculous and stupid can you view that from a German perspective?

 

[Goosey 3,017]

Germany doesn't respect freedom of speech like in the US. For example, you can be fined or jailed for insulting people.

Clearly this case is ridiculous to most people in "free" countries. That's why it's worldwide news.

 

Always there will be some thoughtless people trying to justify these restrictions by saying "America doesn't have free speech either! You can't make bomb threats or spew libel!" 

 

[DietCoke 386]

I think a lot of people calling this harmless aren't understanding the context. This woman wasn't at home telling her family that the holocaust didn't happen, she was in a public space communicating her idea to the media. 

Also, this doesn't have to do with "feelings", this has to do with literally denying racism. 

[Mobster 14,604]

11 hours ago, Morphine Prince said:

And the UN has said defamation laws violate freedom of expression before. 

There is an ongoing debate on defamation laws in the US as well. 

Nice try. 

No, the UN debated defamation of religion, not defamation in general. Defamation of religion is not what's questioned here. It's allowed in Germany. Even the NPD is allowed in Germany.

Defamation are "false statements that harm the reputation of an individual"... the UN is not discussing these

The reason why you can't say stuff like this in Germany is because it's a FACT, there's nothing to discussing, nothing to believe, IT HAPPENED. Many people are still sitting in jail, because of what happened (and rightfully so). Denying it happened, is lying and saying these people are innocent, when they are not. 

Anyway, my point was that some people love to use "freedom of speech" to basically argue that what they say, can't have no legal repercussion. BUT IT CAN. Because freedom of speech has boundaries. Otherwise you could argue why people go to jail for hoaxes. And no, the UN isn't discussing that.

But considering the quality of US prisons, I'd rather people would pay huge amounts of fines, which should go directly to the victims of the accusations/ alarms. Luckily, the prisons in Germany, are what prisons are supposed to be, so the only arguable thing is that the 87-year-old lady could have dementia, anything else is not up to discussion

[Supersonic 49,376]

5 hours ago, Goosey said:

Germany doesn't respect freedom of speech like in the US. For example, you can be fined or jailed for insulting people.

Clearly this case is ridiculous to most people in "free" countries. That's why it's worldwide news.

 

Always there will be some thoughtless people trying to justify these restrictions by saying "America doesn't have free speech either! You can't make bomb threats or spew libel!" 

 

Because bill #1 of the German constitution is

"Human dignity shall be inviolable."

You are delusional as f*ck if you think that your petty freedom of insulting people is more important than somebody's right to not be slandered, defamed and live a peaceful life.

[Morphine Prince 109,680]

31 minutes ago, hmlswine said:

Anyway, my point was that some people love to use "freedom of speech" to basically argue that what they say, can't have no legal repercussion. BUT IT CAN. Because freedom of speech has boundaries. Otherwise you could argue why people go to jail for hoaxes. And no, the UN isn't discussing that.

Actually, no one is arguing that. Of course freedom of speech has its limitations and can have legal repercussions. You can't yell "fire!" in a store or whatever. However something as extreme as this German law would not happen in other countries. Literally imprisoning someone fro their (wrong, stupid, delusional) belief. Where does it stop? How will this law be expanded? I already provided different example and none of the supporters of this law have responded to them. 

I guess you have to be German to think this is ok. Or European at least. 

[Morphine Prince 109,680]

14 minutes ago, amenvodka said:

Because bill #1 of the German constitution is

"Human dignity shall be inviolable."

You are delusional as f*ck if you think that your petty freedom of insulting people is more important than somebody's right to not be slandered, defamed and live a peaceful life.

Slander and defamation are crimes in other countries as well. This is only due because these crimes can cause actual damage to a person's reputation and carry more repercussions. Holding a belief and stating it would not get you thrown in prison though.

Would Donald Trump be imprisoned in Germany? lol. (God, he needs to disappear).  

[Supersonic 49,376]

Just now, Morphine Prince said:

Slander and defamation are crimes in other countries as well. This is only due because these crimes can cause actual damage to a person's reputation and carry more repercussions. Holding a belief and stating it would not get you thrown in prison though.

Would Donald Trump be imprisoned in Germany? lol. (God, he needs to disappear).  

For his comments about Mexicans? He'd probably actually be in court and pay fines/serve time for it.

I get what you're trying to say about "beliefs" but let's be honest, doesn't holding xenophobic, racist, anti-semitic "beliefs" and stating them on a public platform (like the 87 year old woman here that went on national TV to spread hate speech) cause EVEN MORE actual damage to a whole subset of people instead of just slandering one singular person?