Lana Del Rey Sort of Regrets Saying Feminism Is Not An Interesting Concept

[craig 680]

 I don't see feminists talking about how women (and men) are helpless victims, I see them making change and campaigning for change every single day in a multitude of forms. 

Of course making women feel like victims isn't their goal, but it can be the main end result. If you set out to raise awareness about rape or s-xual harassment or s-xism by persuading women that stuff they saw as harmless is really victimizing them, that every encounter with a random jerk is part of Patriarchal Oppression, and that such stuff should be the main political focus, the end result could be making women feel like embattered victims

There will always be s-x criminals, as there always will be muggers. Focusing obsessively on crime leads people to see the world as mean and hostile, and perhaps enact draconian penalty which have unintended bad consequences. 

[craig 680]

There was a part in the Everyday Sexism book where the legal definition of s-xual assault was presented and it shocked the women interviewed because they didn't realise something so "simple" and "normal"  was considered assault and that it could result in jail time. One even said: "According to this, I've been s-xually assaulted around 10 times and I've never reported it once because I thought it was normal."

Wonder how many of the women would also have to admit that have s-xually assaulted or harassed men, using the same strict definition? Or how many men would realize they've been "victims" of s-xcrime and didn't even know it, perhaps enjoyed it? (Consider what Madonna did to Drake and the double standard.)

I'm not familiar with the book you cite, but I've seen studies "proving" a high level of s-xual assault critiqued in just this way.

If women were expected to doing 50% of the work of making advances to have a relationship, and their advances were held to the same strict code that some feminists want to impose, many girls would conclude that the occasional case of unwanted touching or awkward compliments was a fair trade-off to avoid a world that was harshly punitive in these areas with expanded definitions of s-xcrime..

It's all about moderation. Rape and Harassment,  like Terrorism, are bad things, But it's possible to combat them in ways that produce more negative unintended consequences, more breeding of unnecessary fear, than any good done.

Feminists did good work getting people to take rape and s-xual harassment more seriously in the 80s. We moved past the world where Jimmy Savile and Bill Cosby got away with serial s-xcrime for decades. It's sad though we now live in  world where most adults (especially males) are afraid to even touch a child that isn't there own. I wouldn't want to see radical efforts put a similar chill in touching and flirting between men and women. Moderation is key.

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

Of course making women feel like victims isn't their goal, but it can be the main end result. If you set out to raise awareness about rape or s-xual harassment or s-xism by persuading women that stuff they saw as harmless is really victimizing them, that every encounter with a random jerk is part of Patriarchal Oppression, and that such stuff should be the main political focus, the end result could be making women feel like embattered victims

There will always be s-x criminals, as there always will be muggers. Focusing obsessively on crime leads people to see the world as mean and hostile, and perhaps enact draconian penalty which have unintended bad consequences. 

What? No  

The world isn't perfect in any way, and im not sure how opening people's eyes to the little injustices that they don't necessarily see is making people feel like victims. Maybe it does happen, but most people I've seen become feminists or just #woke about social issues do not see themselves as victims, but just people who make a conscious decision to at LEAST not be complicit in the oppression of other people (including themselves and w.e group they may identify with) that makes the world just a little bit better. When you say that they go out by "persuading" people that things just arent as hunky-dory as they seem, I can't see that as a abd thing. I dont think not noticing negative things in society and living in blissful ignorance is the desired goal, at least not for most people. Im ENTIRELY grateful that I'm not trapped into the "normalcy" of modern culture in terms of things like systems of oppression. Not that it makes me any "better" or intelligent compared to other people, but I feel a weight off of my shoulder because not only do certain things make sense now, but Im not just being persuaded by the first one to offer an answer to my questions. I talk to women all the time who, while not always feminists can CLEARLY tell when things just "don't seem fair" --- if its as basic as "why can men go shirtless in public, but I can't, even when its to breast feed in some places?" People, especially women are more aware of Patriarchy than they know, they just don't have the words to put to constructs i society that clearly either favor men or harm women. They aren't all subtleties or anything. It's not feminists saying "hey, remember when you did this? Well thats really ****ed up and contributes to Patriarchy, which hurs ALL OF US YOU SHOULD FEEL GUILTY" -- and its not like Feminists go around "waking" people up, most people find out about feminism of their own volition I feel like  

The world IS mean and hostile too like  "There will always be s-x criminals and muggers" is such a defeatist attitude too  Like, im more interested in why this happens and what we can do to MINIMIZE such things; education is one effective way of doing so. Even if Rape never stops happening, thats still tons less men and women that get raped  Feminism provides a gendered lens to inspect and a--lyze not only media but phenomenon and theorize and prove why things happen and then also work to better them... It isn't obsession over crimes or anything, and anyway in terms of activism, prominent feminists and just activists do their best to help SOLVE and reduce the instances of these crimes and teach other people how to do the same. I really dont see it as "self victimization" or "focusing on the negative", its focusing on the reality and trying to make it better. Maybe you have tons of anecdotal experience with feminism promoting fear, but I don't. I see feminism REDUCING the fear behind certain things because it helps explain why they happen and again what we can do to prevent and stop or lessen them.  Feminists build freaking shelters for women and men, counsel people on rape, etc. etc. the list goes on. Hell, you dont even have to claim "I'm a feminist" to do any of these things thats the best part  

Women and Men perpetuate and uphold Patriarchy, feminists realize this... so im not sure the "gotcha" effect of women having to admit that they've messed up to is really relevant at all (about your "how many women have by this definition harassed men?" 

Rape Culture is also STILL a thing. Its the fact that we live in a place where not only are rape victims not believed when they are raped, but rape is normalized and excused. Our old definition of "when a man penetrates a woman without her permission" rape was what was strict and harmful -- thanks to Feminism, we now recognize that Men can be raped; by both men and women mind you;  wives can be raped; girlfriends can be raped, coercion is a part of rape, and intoxication removes the ability to give legal consent (that one has way more implications than simply about rape or feminism though) 

Feminism also recognizes the gendered notion of women as feeble caretakers and homemakers and men as predators and breadwinners that hurt women; gender roles when forced hurt basically everyone, and I think the idea that even "flirting" will become such hot territory is really kind of silly.. I think you both overestimate and underestimate feminism at the same time tbh  

 

I talked in circles a lot  Basically Feminism is about making positive change in the world and doesn't exist to scare people, (though maybe it should a little? Things arent as peachy as they seem sorry to tell you ) 

Not all parts of feminism are radical and not "that" many feminists are rad fems (like myself ) compared to like mainstream feminists. Oh and I also want to point out that third wave feminism brought us intersectionality; we now can more accurately include women and men of different walks of life than just "white women" which was a major failing of both 1st and most of 2nd wave feminism. That's reason enough for it to exist to me  

[Yanko 9,860]

Tbh, i don't care about her political views, of any artists. 

same

i couldnt care less like just gimme bops 

[AlexanderLevi2 5,849]

What? No  

The world isn't perfect in any way, and im not sure how opening people's eyes to the little injustices that they don't necessarily see is making people feel like victims. Maybe it does happen, but most people I've seen become feminists or just #woke about social issues do not see themselves as victims, but just people who make a conscious decision to at LEAST not be complicit in the oppression of other people (including themselves and w.e group they may identify with) that makes the world just a little bit better. When you say that they go out by "persuading" people that things just arent as hunky-dory as they seem, I can't see that as a abd thing. I dont think not noticing negative things in society and living in blissful ignorance is the desired goal, at least not for most people. Im ENTIRELY grateful that I'm not trapped into the "normalcy" of modern culture in terms of things like systems of oppression. Not that it makes me any "better" or intelligent compared to other people, but I feel a weight off of my shoulder because not only do certain things make sense now, but Im not just being persuaded by the first one to offer an answer to my questions. I talk to women all the time who, while not always feminists can CLEARLY tell when things just "don't seem fair" --- if its as basic as "why can men go shirtless in public, but I can't, even when its to breast feed in some places?" People, especially women are more aware of Patriarchy than they know, they just don't have the words to put to constructs i society that clearly either favor men or harm women. They aren't all subtleties or anything. It's not feminists saying "hey, remember when you did this? Well thats really ****ed up and contributes to Patriarchy, which hurs ALL OF US YOU SHOULD FEEL GUILTY" -- and its not like Feminists go around "waking" people up, most people find out about feminism of their own volition I feel like  

The world IS mean and hostile too like  "There will always be s-x criminals and muggers" is such a defeatist attitude too  Like, im more interested in why this happens and what we can do to MINIMIZE such things; education is one effective way of doing so. Even if Rape never stops happening, thats still tons less men and women that get raped  Feminism provides a gendered lens to inspect and a--lyze not only media but phenomenon and theorize and prove why things happen and then also work to better them... It isn't obsession over crimes or anything, and anyway in terms of activism, prominent feminists and just activists do their best to help SOLVE and reduce the instances of these crimes and teach other people how to do the same. I really dont see it as "self victimization" or "focusing on the negative", its focusing on the reality and trying to make it better. Maybe you have tons of anecdotal experience with feminism promoting fear, but I don't. I see feminism REDUCING the fear behind certain things because it helps explain why they happen and again what we can do to prevent and stop or lessen them.  Feminists build freaking shelters for women and men, counsel people on rape, etc. etc. the list goes on. Hell, you dont even have to claim "I'm a feminist" to do any of these things thats the best part  

Women and Men perpetuate and uphold Patriarchy, feminists realize this... so im not sure the "gotcha" effect of women having to admit that they've messed up to is really relevant at all (about your "how many women have by this definition harassed men?" 

Rape Culture is also STILL a thing. Its the fact that we live in a place where not only are rape victims not believed when they are raped, but rape is normalized and excused. Our old definition of "when a man penetrates a woman without her permission" rape was what was strict and harmful -- thanks to Feminism, we now recognize that Men can be raped; by both men and women mind you;  wives can be raped; girlfriends can be raped, coercion is a part of rape, and intoxication removes the ability to give legal consent (that one has way more implications than simply about rape or feminism though) 

Feminism also recognizes the gendered notion of women as feeble caretakers and homemakers and men as predators and breadwinners that hurt women; gender roles when forced hurt basically everyone, and I think the idea that even "flirting" will become such hot territory is really kind of silly tbh. I think you both overestimate and underestimate feminism at the same time tbh  

 

wow wow wow wow wow. Yes and yes. I was going to write a response but it will be unmatched with this perfect post. Congrats 

[AlexanderLevi2 5,849]

same

i couldnt care less like just gimme bops 

well you should be somewhat concerned. People look up to pop stars and these stars can sway people's opinions. Let's just hope they continue to spread awareness AND make our p*ssies pop

[Yanko 9,860]

well you should be somewhat concerned. People look up to pop stars and these stars can sway people's opinions. Let's just hope they continue to spread awareness AND make our p*ssies pop

nope still not concerned sorry  i can stan for vile people if i like the music 

[AlexanderLevi2 5,849]

nope still not concerned sorry  i can stan for vile people if i like the music 

that's your decision. Would you support a homophobe? I wouldn't ?

[Yanko 9,860]

that's your decision. Would you support a homophobe? I wouldn't ?

i love eminems music    that doesnt mean i agree with his opinions 

[Redstreak 6,653]

What? No  

The world isn't perfect in any way, and im not sure how opening people's eyes to the little injustices that they don't necessarily see is making people feel like victims. Maybe it does happen, but most people I've seen become feminists or just #woke about social issues do not see themselves as victims, but just people who make a conscious decision to at LEAST not be complicit in the oppression of other people (including themselves and w.e group they may identify with) that makes the world just a little bit better. When you say that they go out by "persuading" people that things just arent as hunky-dory as they seem, I can't see that as a abd thing. I dont think not noticing negative things in society and living in blissful ignorance is the desired goal, at least not for most people. Im ENTIRELY grateful that I'm not trapped into the "normalcy" of modern culture in terms of things like systems of oppression. Not that it makes me any "better" or intelligent compared to other people, but I feel a weight off of my shoulder because not only do certain things make sense now, but Im not just being persuaded by the first one to offer an answer to my questions. I talk to women all the time who, while not always feminists can CLEARLY tell when things just "don't seem fair" --- if its as basic as "why can men go shirtless in public, but I can't, even when its to breast feed in some places?" People, especially women are more aware of Patriarchy than they know, they just don't have the words to put to constructs i society that clearly either favor men or harm women. They aren't all subtleties or anything. It's not feminists saying "hey, remember when you did this? Well thats really ****ed up and contributes to Patriarchy, which hurs ALL OF US YOU SHOULD FEEL GUILTY" -- and its not like Feminists go around "waking" people up, most people find out about feminism of their own volition I feel like  

The world IS mean and hostile too like  "There will always be s-x criminals and muggers" is such a defeatist attitude too  Like, im more interested in why this happens and what we can do to MINIMIZE such things; education is one effective way of doing so. Even if Rape never stops happening, thats still tons less men and women that get raped  Feminism provides a gendered lens to inspect and a--lyze not only media but phenomenon and theorize and prove why things happen and then also work to better them... It isn't obsession over crimes or anything, and anyway in terms of activism, prominent feminists and just activists do their best to help SOLVE and reduce the instances of these crimes and teach other people how to do the same. I really dont see it as "self victimization" or "focusing on the negative", its focusing on the reality and trying to make it better. Maybe you have tons of anecdotal experience with feminism promoting fear, but I don't. I see feminism REDUCING the fear behind certain things because it helps explain why they happen and again what we can do to prevent and stop or lessen them.  Feminists build freaking shelters for women and men, counsel people on rape, etc. etc. the list goes on. Hell, you dont even have to claim "I'm a feminist" to do any of these things thats the best part  

Women and Men perpetuate and uphold Patriarchy, feminists realize this... so im not sure the "gotcha" effect of women having to admit that they've messed up to is really relevant at all (about your "how many women have by this definition harassed men?" 

Rape Culture is also STILL a thing. Its the fact that we live in a place where not only are rape victims not believed when they are raped, but rape is normalized and excused. Our old definition of "when a man penetrates a woman without her permission" rape was what was strict and harmful -- thanks to Feminism, we now recognize that Men can be raped; by both men and women mind you;  wives can be raped; girlfriends can be raped, coercion is a part of rape, and intoxication removes the ability to give legal consent (that one has way more implications than simply about rape or feminism though) 

Feminism also recognizes the gendered notion of women as feeble caretakers and homemakers and men as predators and breadwinners that hurt women; gender roles when forced hurt basically everyone, and I think the idea that even "flirting" will become such hot territory is really kind of silly.. I think you both overestimate and underestimate feminism at the same time tbh  

 

I talked in circles a lot  Basically Feminism is about making positive change in the world and doesn't exist to scare people, (though maybe it should a little? Things arent as peachy as they seem sorry to tell you ) 

Not all parts of feminism are radical and not "that" many feminists are rad fems (like myself ) compared to like mainstream feminists. Oh and I also want to point out that third wave feminism brought us intersectionality; we now can more accurately include women and men of different walks of life than just "white women" which was a major failing of both 1st and most of 2nd wave feminism. That's reason enough for it to exist to me  

Literally best post on this site ever

[craig 680]

if its as basic as "why can men go shirtless in public, but I can't, even when its to breast feed in some places?" ...

Oh and I also want to point out that third wave feminism brought us intersectionality; we now can more accurately include women and men of different walks of life than just "white women" which was a major failing of both 1st and most of 2nd wave feminism. That's reason enough for it to exist to me  

I agree they should be able to go shirtless, that nipples shouldn't be seen as genitals that must be covered. But conversely, why should men have to wear long pants and ties in hot weather when women can get away with summer dresses and plunging neckline? Fashion/dress conventions screw both genders in different ways.

Intersectionally is just a partial solution to a problem feminism and others isms caused, when focusing exclusively on one's groups disadvantages and pains. It's no big advance to expand it to "women + blacks + GLBT" when you're still ignoring class issues or problems of non-elite white men. When we get intersectionality between feminists and men's rights activists, then I'll be impressed!

Mostly you're just pointing out how the feminist glass is 2/3 fill and I was pointing out ways it's 1/3 empty - not necessarily disagreeing, just observing different aspects.

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

I agree they should be able to go shirtless, that nipples shouldn't be seen as genitals that must be covered. But conversely, why should men have to wear long pants and ties in hot weather when women can get away with summer dresses and plunging neckline? Fashion/dress conventions screw both genders in different ways.

Intersectionally is just a partial solution to a problem feminism and others isms caused, when focusing exclusively on one's groups disadvantages and pains. It's no big advance to expand it to "women + blacks + GLBT" when you're still ignoring class issues or problems of non-elite white men. When we get intersectionality between feminists and men's rights activists, then I'll be impressed!

Mostly you're just pointing out how the feminist glass is 2/3 fill and I was pointing out ways it's 1/3 empty - not necessarily disagreeing, just observing different aspects.

First off, omfg koons is back so...  to you saying that this is simply about fashion and comparing it to men "having" to wear long panties and ties in hot weather (also, where are u even talking about that this happens? Cause I've never heard of it  Do you mean indoors in white collar jobs?  )

It's definitely entirely about the s-xualization objectification and policing of women's bodies  And its not that nipples are seen as genitals, because men show them all the time, its definitely that WOMEN's nipples are seen as innately s-xual is where it gets all ****ed up and hypocritical. 

but I digress...

Feminism is not an "ism"... You mean things like Racism and Sexism -- THOSE are the systems, Feminism is an ideology, they don't deserve to be grouped together  Like literally... no connection. Feminism has not CAUSED problems for other marginalized groups besides white women, it simply hasn't done everything in its power to fight for them on the same level until relatively recently.

Intersectionality is also WAY more than just "women + blacks + LGBT" its looking at oppression from EVERY axis, both individually and where they intersect; this including class and gender... which I said in my last post, so  Also how can you say its "no big advance" when we are literally expanding this to MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ;Black people, LGBT people, Men, disabled people, people who arent from Western and developed countries, people who are oppressed and or lack privilege in general - thats quite a big advance. Like if thats an insignificant or unimportant group of people to secure rights and equality for then...   

If you've been following both "movements" in my experiences its DEFINITELY men's rights activists that blame things on feminists and dont actually get much done, and they typically are the kind who dont want to acknowledge intersectionality. I see so much homophobia xenophobia and lowkey racism from MRAs, like you want to solve problem men face.... but its only white heteros-xual poor and middle class men from America and Europe -- this is a trapping of first wave feminism, except even then they knew that black women and women of color needed help too, they were just literally afraid that being inclusive would make men turn against their plea and were like "we will come back to you!" Some of the most prominent early third wave feminists are black women for a reason  Most third-wave feminists realize that Intersectionality is not an option; its half-assed at best without it; why anyone want to say that intersectionality is not the best approach just because its a feminist idea is just  to me. (Cause I see it online all the time from self-proclaimed MRAs and Anti-Feminists or Reactionaries) Im not sure how intersectionality being mostly absent from one movement is a feminist issue, so why should that then impress you? 

Men's Rights Activists would honestly benefit from working with feminists, but what I mostly see are men who misunderstand and misrepresent the idea of feminism to other insecure men who are harmed by Patriarchy and indoctrinate them into believing that feminism is a negative force in the world, which is really sad. There are obviously good men working o actually... get things done? And of the ones I've seen and heard of they are the ones who don't have lowkey misogynistic views and blame feminism for their slowly growing lack of exercisable male privilege. Hell they might even use "feminist terms" like Patriarchy and Toxic Masculinity and Rape Culture to conveniently describe things. Plenty of Men's Rights Activists (who don't always go by that title) work with feminists on men's issues, and sometimes solely female feminists work on this as well  

I don't think feminism is perfect by any means, but I do think the "1/3rd" you are talking about in particular comes from a misunderstanding of feminism, its goals, its powers, and its accomplishments. 

~~~

Anyway this is off topic, pm me if you want a further reply  

[craig 680]

First off, omfg koons is back so...  to you saying that this is simply about fashion and comparing it to men "having" to wear long panties and ties in hot weather (also, where are u even talking about that this happens? Cause I've never heard of it  Do you mean indoors in white collar jobs?  )

It's definitely entirely about the s-xualization objectification and policing of women's bodies  

And its not that nipples are seen as genitals, because men show them all the time, its definitely that WOMEN's nipples are seen as innately s-xual is where it gets all ****ed up and hypocritical. 

but I digress...Anyway this is off topic, pm me if you want a further reply  

 

It's more accurate to say the issue if female nipples being classed as genitals because many body parts - from males muscles to curvy female legs and long hair - are s-xualized without society demanding they be covered.

My point about shorts and ties - yes I was talking mainly about office dress codes, but also a family funeral some years ago. I drive for 3 hours in 95 degree August heat to attend, in car without AC, and certain people gave me **** even though there were lots of females with bare legs at the event.  

Good discussion :) 

[StrawberryBlond 14,954]

Wonder how many of the women would also have to admit that have s-xually assaulted or harassed men, using the same strict definition? Or how many men would realize they've been "victims" of s-xcrime and didn't even know it, perhaps enjoyed it? (Consider what Madonna did to Drake and the double standard.)

I'm not familiar with the book you cite, but I've seen studies "proving" a high level of s-xual assault critiqued in just this way.

If women were expected to doing 50% of the work of making advances to have a relationship, and their advances were held to the same strict code that some feminists want to impose, many girls would conclude that the occasional case of unwanted touching or awkward compliments was a fair trade-off to avoid a world that was harshly punitive in these areas with expanded definitions of s-xcrime..

It's all about moderation. Rape and Harassment,  like Terrorism, are bad things, But it's possible to combat them in ways that produce more negative unintended consequences, more breeding of unnecessary fear, than any good done.

Feminists did good work getting people to take rape and s-xual harassment more seriously in the 80s. We moved past the world where Jimmy Savile and Bill Cosby got away with serial s-xcrime for decades. It's sad though we now live in  world where most adults (especially males) are afraid to even touch a child that isn't there own. I wouldn't want to see radical efforts put a similar chill in touching and flirting between men and women. Moderation is key.

I can't speak for these women on that front but I'd be willing to bet that they hadn't s-xually assaulted men, judging by what they were saying ("I'm used to getting groped on a night out - for girls it's normal," "I do everything I can to avoid getting harrassed in public but it happens anyway," and "not a day goes by where I don't get leered it and it's horrible") I doubt they are. The concept of men enjoying s-xual harrassment from women is a controversial one but it certainly shouldn't be overlooked or joked about. I don't believe anyone has the right to touch you without your permission, man or woman.

The book is Everyday Sexism by Laura Bates. It's made up of chapters, each one beginning with a list of s-xism statistics in that area, followed by a critique of this particular kind of s-xism, interspersed with tweets and longer entries submitted through her online project. It's one of the best books I've ever read and should be compulsory reading. She even has a chapter called What About The Men? where she talks about how s-xism towards men is wrong but nevertheless lays down how the stakes are different. This one contains stories from men and she even brings up s-xism towards men in other chapters.

Really, what you're saying here has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. This isn't about consenual, mutual flirtation leading to consensual, mutual touching. I'm talking about women who've been outright assaulted (physically as well as s-xually) and even raped in public by complete strangers they hadn't even struck up a conversation with, sometimes even in broad daylight.

Feminism has never been intended to cause women to live in fear - it's about making women feel stronger. It's about telling women that if you get assaulted, you can report it and something will be done and you'll leave a stronger person for it. It's about telling women that you can stand up to the perpetrator without being branded as "making a scene." It's about telling women that we don't have to take it. It's not breeding fear, it's breeding courage. One of the things women who were enlightened to these concepts commonly say is that it gave them the strength to report a rape that happened a while ago but they never told anyone about and suchlike. And how doing this released a burden that had been weighing them down and even be making them feel suicidal. Whenever a report is released about s-x crime statistics, they are always worse than last year. But the police always say the same thing - "This doesn't mean that s-x crime is more common now, its always been this common. It's just that in the modern age, the shame of having it happen to you has been reduced and more people now have the courage to report it." Just because the systems to deal with assault are in place doesn't mean that women have always had the drive to use them. As girls and women, we have been raised to believe "don't draw attention to yourself" and "don't make a fuss." Because it's considered unladylike and undignified to raise your voice or make a complaint. It's one of the greatest disservices we have ever done women because so many of them have never reported s-x crimes for these very reasons. Some also say that the reason they didn't report is because they doubted anything would be done. Some have even reported it and and had nothing done about it. Doesn't inspire much confidence, does it?

Pedophilia and s-xism have their links but they aren't quite the same thing in this case. A man being afraid to touch his own child in a non-s-xual way in public is a very different matter and feminism is no way the cause behind that. It was the evolution of child protection laws that have made this unintended consequence, not womens rights groups. I don't know how you made that correlation. And flirting and touching between men and women is fine provided it's clearly consensual. You don't see women complaining about a guy they like touching them because the touch is welcome. The complaint is justified if the touch is unwanted. Flirting and touching is a two way street. If you're flirting with someone, and they are smiling, laughing and flirting right back, it's ok. But if you're flirting with someone and they are clearly brushing you off and not responding well, this is a sign that if you continue much longer, it'll become s-xual harrassment. It's not a difficult concept. If you grope someone's backside when they invite you back to their house and into their bedroom, it's ok. If you grope the backside of someone in a club who you have never spoken to in your life, this is s-xual assault. Again, not a difficult concept. Feminism has been trying to make this distinction clear for decades. What kind of world is it when people don't understand the concept of consent?

[craig 680]

1. Pedophilia and s-xism have their links but they aren't quite the same thing in this case. A man being afraid to touch his own child in a non-s-xual way in public is a very different matter and feminism is no way the cause behind that. It was the evolution of child protection laws that have made this unintended consequence, not womens rights groups. I don't know how you made that correlation.

2. And flirting and touching between men and women is fine provided it's clearly consensual. You don't see women complaining about a guy they like touching them because the touch is welcome. The complaint is justified if the touch is unwanted. Flirting and touching is a two way street. If you're flirting with someone, and they are smiling, laughing and flirting right back, it's ok

 

1. The link is that excessive fear of pedophilia often has a disproportionate impact on men (people prefer female babysitters etc), while some s-x negative radical feminist spend 95% of their discussion of s-xual topics practically demonizing male s-xuality as something awful that rapes and harasses and degrades women. 

Sure, this is in minority view among real-world feminists, but troublingly common in feminist literature.Also nothing to do with my mom's version of feminism, who was raised by parents with Victorian anti-s-x attitudes and came to see those as a negative thing.

The s-x negative thing is in greater danger of going to harmful extremes in US than UK, because of their puritan heritage and the power of religious fundies (who can easily co-op the s-x-negative side of feminism for their own agenda).

2. That works fine most of the time - long as everyone is reasonable, sensible, with social skills and empathy.  Just remember for every socially obtuse lout who is unreasonably persistent, their is likely some shy person, who can't be 100% sure when they flirt that the person is willing. and worries that minimal advances will be seen as harassing and treated rudely..