Greece debt crisis: Eurozone refuses bailout extension

[Luc 4,776]

This is actually propaganda of the media that serve EUrop and you keep shallowing them all, no offence your position is different.Everyhting is wrong with Europe. I am a supporter of Europe but not this Europe of the imperialism of the powerful and corruption where the powerful countries drink the blood of the others. Do you realise that half of the people here can't even find a job? I have many friends in University that need to pass 15 days with 20 Euros when just going to the Uni costs you 1,5 Euro the lowest and eating much more, aka impossible. Honestly, how much do you spend in a week? It's like the people took  or stole any money cause all the people I know work for their whole lives and took nothing from Angela Merkel. 3% of Europe keeps getting richer and the other 97% keeps getting poorer while Europe keeps sinking into fasism and decay. 

 

As for Tsipras, he did many of the things you refer to, don't listen all the propaganda, he can't do everything in 5 months, he will lose his influence over people. (and he took power because of support and democracy, not because of fear and deceive like the previous one of the right)

And those in Europe that keep pushing Greece into this devastating frugality don't care and don't want the government to take the money from the rich people, they serve their interests actually and it's mirrored from their statements/careers and the politics in their Countries. 

Anyway Refenderum will happen in 5 of July cause that's what Democracy is all about no matter how much Europe and the media keep frightening people inside and outside the country and people will probably and hopefully choose no.

It's a no to these cruel cuts, not a No to Euro. It should be a No to Euro though, not for revenge or anything, people have no fault in that, but so that this rotten Europe can crumble and a new Europe can be built again under the ideas that made this place so glorious, not the 4th reich.

Consequences of years of too high military spending (which is still some of the highest in Europe), people with pensions of 80-90% of their end-salary with 13th and 14th months (starting from 57th or so year, even lower for goverment officials), big corruption and tax evasion by the rich, weird tax rules (farmers don't have to pay income tax?), an ineffective and populist government. How do you expect Europe to give debt relief, when the government doesn't even want to make changes to solve the long-term problems of Greece. In that way they could be given debt relief every 20 years.

Greece is going to default tomorrow and a slow banking run has been taking place for months already. The referendum could've taken place 3 months ago, but not 4 days after all the damage has already been done.

Syriza should've been in government 20 years ago - to tackle the corruption and tax evasion and elitarism (which they haven't even tried to fight since they got a near-majority). Now they're only making matters worse.

Angela does not speak for herself. She has considered debt relief, but that's impossible because a big majority of Germans and especially from her own party would even rather see Greece go out of the Eurozone than that.

I'd say if debt relief were to come, it would have to be done the Syriza-way: all Eurozone member states hold a referendum which states 'Are you okay with 1500 euro per person sent to Greece not ever coming back to you? We recommend you to say no - No or yes.'

A no to the cruel cuts is a no to Europe. You have to realize that. And the cuts represented are nowhere near cruel - a small cut in military spending, a small tax hike for corporations (proposed by Syriza), a small tax hike for yachts (which Syriza didn't want), income tax becomes harder to evade (less exceptions), a small tax hike in consumption, less exceptions for the pension age.

I can't believe how you're falling for your media's propaganda and Tsipras' framing: there is nothing 'fascist' about Europe. The country with the largest support for fascism, is in fact, Greece, with Golden Dawn being represented in the parliament.

You've also fallen for Tsipras' framing by thinking that this referendum is only about cuts. This referendum is about the future of Greece - will Greece be a prosperous country in the future? Will Greece stay in the EU? Will Greece have a banking run? Will Greece come in an Argentine-like situation for years? Will new elections be held? Or will Greece have a lower deficit, with small cuts and tax raises here and there, leading to a more prosperous nation in the long term.

I realise that 25% of the people are unemployed, and that only one tenth of them has welfare (which is very small). But at the same time there's big differences in pensions. But also that there are still people who get pensions over €1000, and that the elite and corruption is still bigger in Greece than in other country besides maybe Cyprus. Greeks lived more prosperous than they were able to, and that resulted in them now having to live from the money that they actually have. Greece is not a poor country at all. Look at your neighbours Bulgaria, where the average income is seven times lower than in Greece.

A referendum on fiscal matters doesn't work. Of course everybody will vote for lower taxes and more spending. But that actually is the structural problem Greece has/had - low taxes with many exceptions and high government spending resulting in a large deficit.

 

I really want to know what kind of Europe you wish for, by the way. I wish for a federal Europe, with a hundred or so provinces. I also look forward to seeing what will actually happen tomorrow at 6 AM - will Greece go bankrupt, with the financial sector imploding because the ECB is forced to remove it's financial aid causing Greece to go out of the Eurozone (temporarily, probably) and have a humanitarian disaster happen?

[Economy 53,173]

I haven't ever heard that as a reason. I do agree, but think it only applies to countries that also have a big public debt and a population that continuously votes for populism (Maybe Spain, Belgium and Italy could be hurt).

In fact, demand for German/Dutch bonds rose A LOT this week because the're seen as safe havens.

The main problem is that Eurozone membership isn't something you can lose. There's no law that says you can leave the Eurozone and no law for how you can. Some experts think Greece will install the Euro as a second currency that will later be reimplemented, some think Greece will have to leave the EU and NATO. Politicians also fear increased influence from Russia, because Greeks are culturally very close to Russia (same religion), have a good location, etc. That's why the US demands Europe to give debt relief.

But my conspiracy theory is that Tsipras and Varoufakis planned this all along, that their ultimate goal was to leave the Eurozone and cause chaos in Europe. They are literally going bankrupt over disagreements with a few percentage points of cuts.

what do u mean u never heard of that as a reason? Why do u think the are so concerned with then defaulting if they get no more bailouts?

[me069 284]

Greece leaving in itself wouldnt be that catastrophic. Their economy is not that large and in terms of changes that would ave on trade, that shouldnt affect the EU or the world THAT much other than making the EU look weak and ununited

 

However in this case because they are so broke, without financial aid they will innevitably default... a developed Nation defaulting on debt payments is virtually unheard of these days and if it were to happen it could cause distrust among investors among the entire EU questioning how safe the system is...

 

IF investors stopped seeing Government bonds as a safe investment that holds virtually 0 risk, they would start demanding higher returns for greater risk... and because Government bonds influence the entire fixed-income market, all types of bonds would rise with them including Corporate bonds...

 

Under such a scenario even 0% interest rates from Central Banks and Quantitative Easing could not prevent all forms of credit costs from rising... And because the financial system is globaly interlinked, the contaigen could spread beyond Europe

 

The economy is weak and cannot handle higher interest rates at the moment which is why Central Banks from almost every Country has the rates at historic lows to try and influence all types of credit to remain cheap from mortgages to car loans to student loans etc

 

If bond yields rise from distrust and we have a bond market collapse and credit costs skyrocket under the current weak economy, the whole system could implode and we could end up in a great recession again...

 

All this because of 1 small Country... Thats why so much attention is being placed on them. They may be small but because of their position in the EU, they have the potential to cause a lot of damage if things go wrong!

Another recession would destroy the economy in its current state in my opinion. We are still recovering from the one not long ago. We are an immediate neighbour to Greece and financial professionals have been reassuring us that there would be little if any negative on us if the worst happens in Greece. I don't think so and neither do my friends. If Greece really defaults sh^t will hit the fan and it will hit it hard. This time the recession will just come from another continent. 

[Economy 53,173]

Another recession would destroy the economy in its current state in my opinion. We are still recovering from the one not long ago. We are an immediate neighbour to Greece and financial professionals have been reassuring us that there would be little if any negative on us if the worst happens in Greece. I don't think so and neither do my friends. If Greece really defaults sh^t will hit the fan and it will hit it hard. This time the recession will just come from another continent. 

well it is a worst case scenario. This is where phychology comes into play...

 

if investors see Greece as an isolated incident and dont loose trust on the system, not much should happen to bond market

 

but then theres speculation at play also... Some may not loose trust on system but still may sell off assets anyway in anticipation that other investors will

 

in the financial and trading market weird things happen all the time making it so unpredictable

[me069 284]

ut then theres speculation at play also... Some may not loose trust on system but still may sell off assets anyway in anticipation that other investors will

Exactly! Wasn't it because of speculation that people started running a few days ago to the banks and withdrawing their money as a precaution being afraid to lose it? I know money doesn't just go away like that but after the situation with CorBank here in Bg I can't really blame them: http://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2014/11/07/bulgarias-corpbank-a-tangled-web-of-fraud/

I am nowhere near being qualified to make such a statement but I don't see a future where the investors wouldn't lose trust in Greece because of a default. 

[VforVendetta 2,024]

Consequences of years of too high military spending (which is still some of the highest in Europe), people with pensions of 80-90% of their end-salary with 13th and 14th months (starting from 57th or so year, even lower for goverment officials), big corruption and tax evasion by the rich, weird tax rules (farmers don't have to pay income tax?), an ineffective and populist government. How do you expect Europe to give debt relief, when the government doesn't even want to make changes to solve the long-term problems of Greece. In that way they could be given debt relief every 20 years.

Greece is going to default tomorrow and a slow banking run has been taking place for months already. The referendum could've taken place 3 months ago, but not 4 days after all the damage has already been done.

Syriza should've been in government 20 years ago - to tackle the corruption and tax evasion and elitarism (which they haven't even tried to fight since they got a near-majority). Now they're only making matters worse.

Angela does not speak for herself. She has considered debt relief, but that's impossible because a big majority of Germans and especially from her own party would even rather see Greece go out of the Eurozone than that.

I'd say if debt relief were to come, it would have to be done the Syriza-way: all Eurozone member states hold a referendum which states 'Are you okay with 1500 euro per person sent to Greece not ever coming back to you? We recommend you to say no - No or yes.'

A no to the cruel cuts is a no to Europe. You have to realize that. And the cuts represented are nowhere near cruel - a small cut in military spending, a small tax hike for corporations (proposed by Syriza), a small tax hike for yachts (which Syriza didn't want), income tax becomes harder to evade (less exceptions), a small tax hike in consumption, less exceptions for the pension age.

I can't believe how you're falling for your media's propaganda and Tsipras' framing: there is nothing 'fascist' about Europe. The country with the largest support for fascism, is in fact, Greece, with Golden Dawn being represented in the parliament.

You've also fallen for Tsipras' framing by thinking that this referendum is only about cuts. This referendum is about the future of Greece - will Greece be a prosperous country in the future? Will Greece stay in the EU? Will Greece have a banking run? Will Greece come in an Argentine-like situation for years? Will new elections be held? Or will Greece have a lower deficit, with small cuts and tax raises here and there, leading to a more prosperous nation in the long term.

I realise that 25% of the people are unemployed, and that only one tenth of them has welfare (which is very small). But at the same time there's big differences in pensions. But also that there are still people who get pensions over €1000, and that the elite and corruption is still bigger in Greece than in other country besides maybe Cyprus. Greeks lived more prosperous than they were able to, and that resulted in them now having to live from the money that they actually have. Greece is not a poor country at all. Look at your neighbours Bulgaria, where the average income is seven times lower than in Greece.

A referendum on fiscal matters doesn't work. Of course everybody will vote for lower taxes and more spending. But that actually is the structural problem Greece has/had - low taxes with many exceptions and high government spending resulting in a large deficit.

 

I really want to know what kind of Europe you wish for, by the way. I wish for a federal Europe, with a hundred or so provinces. I also look forward to seeing what will actually happen tomorrow at 6 AM - will Greece go bankrupt, with the financial sector imploding because the ECB is forced to remove it's financial aid causing Greece to go out of the Eurozone (temporarily, probably) and have a humanitarian disaster happen?

 

 

 No offence but you are the one falling on the propaganda, I'm tired of playing games online or visit forums and see all this propaganda and ignorance about my country, I live in Greece, I know members of that take part in Syriza party and much more, I know 1-2 things more than you about what they do and what they don't. Many things you mention are true and most of them are a problem of most EUropean countries not only Greece. Anyway you mention only the part that Greece has to do with the problem, which is less than half the story. You have to search other things like how we entered the EU and why the union need my country in the first place, Maastricht Treaty, a DIctatorship that the US was behind, how the EU works for the G9 and the smaller countries, Siemens etc. 

As for the No to Europe, I wish it was like that at this moment. This Europe is EUrope at it's lowest and I don't wanna be a part of it. Let's see if Angela is truly prepared then to keep her Empire at place, Europe is already falling below dollar when it should have double the power. 

To end this convo (cause sadly I don't have the time to explain everything and to convince you and I need to change your opinion about Capitalism first anyway) I'll say one thing:

When Germany bloodshed Europe they got a pardon and their dept was erased (and they faught on the war, they killed millions), of course now they do the same again, just not with weapons. Now Greece is owing a dept that has to do with bad decisions of governments/corruption (things that are everywhere in EUrope), the fact that we entered the EU in the first place when we weren't and because Greece is a small country and all small caountries of EU get devoured. Yet we still are forced to pay a dept that is impossible to be payed witha frugality that is further destroying our country and making people commit suicides all in the name of the rightful Europe that protects it's memberes and is all about equallity. 

It's not random that the South understands us and speaks about their support all the time, they know the proble. When the North wakes up (including Germans themselves) it will be when this Union of terror and reign will truly crumble.

So before you point your finger on the weak and not the powerhouses of big interests that rule this ''righteous'' Union send your father with his suit to bring you food from the Garbage as a payback for the money he owes to Wolfgang Soible and then come back to talk to be about equality and justice.

 

[Luc 4,776]

 

 

 No offence but you are the one falling on the propaganda, I'm tired of playing games online or visit forums and see all this propaganda and ignorance about my country, I live in Greece, I know members of that take part in Syriza party and much more, I know 1-2 things more than you about what they do and what they don't. Many things you mention are true and most of them are a problem of most EUropean countries not only Greece. Anyway you mention only the part that Greece has to do with the problem, which is less than half the story. You have to search other things like how we entered the EU and why the union need my country in the first place, Maastricht Treaty, a DIctatorship that the US was behind, how the EU works for the G9 and the smaller countries, Siemens etc. 

As for the No to Europe, I wish it was like that at this moment. This Europe is EUrope at it's lowest and I don't wanna be a part of it. Let's see if Angela is truly prepared then to keep her Empire at place, Europe is already falling below dollar when it should have double the power. 

To end this convo (cause sadly I don't have the time to explain everything and to convince you and I need to change your opinion about Capitalism first anyway) I'll say one thing:

When Germany bloodshed Europe they got a pardon and their dept was erased (and they faught on the war, they killed millions), of course now they do the same again, just not with weapons. Now Greece is owing a dept that has to do with bad decisions of governments/corruption (things that are everywhere in EUrope), the fact that we entered the EU in the first place when we weren't and because Greece is a small country and all small caountries of EU get devoured. Yet we still are forced to pay a dept that is impossible to be payed witha frugality that is further destroying our country and making people commit suicides all in the name of the rightful Europe that protects it's memberes and is all about equallity. 

It's not random that the South understands us and speaks about their support all the time, they know the proble. When the North wakes up (including Germans themselves) it will be when this Union of terror and reign will truly crumble.

So before you point your finger on the weak and not the powerhouses of big interests that rule this ''righteous'' Union send your father with his suit to bring you food from the Garbage as a payback for the money he owes to Wolfgang Soible and then come back to talk to be about equality and justice.

 

My father has never worn a suit and earns a very low amount of money, bevause there's no things for him to do. He works for himself and gets orders (building sector), which was hit hardest by the recession here. I guess it's either you falling for framing or you being pre-judged about me.

Debt needs to be paid back, simple as that. Syriza could and should distribute the money more fairly in Greece but has so faf shown no interest in doing what they were democratically chosen to do.

The Southern EU states are the harshest on Greece tbh. Especially Spain. I think the Spanish government is the harshest towards Greece and the French the least.

The power in the EU is indeed unfairly distributed. The little countries all have veto-rights (Malta could block sanctions towards Russis for example) and small countries have more seats per person in the European parliament than big countries. To make up for this I think it's fair that the two most important leaders (biggest countries) handle the foreign relations. It'd be bureaucratic and useless (and people would call it 'undemocratic') to have an apart person doing all foreign and intern relations in the EU, eventhough you could say Juncker does that. 

Greeks don't have to live in poverty. And the debt can actually be paid back. I agree with small or big portions of the debt being paid off if and only if it means that the Greek government will make big structural reforms that actually work, but seemingly Syriza is not at all prepared to do so.

I understand that a big recession and the age of a student makes somebody feel like some sort of protestor with a lot of ideas, but no other system than capitalism has proven to work and you haven't suggested alternatives to the EU or ways it could be improved.

Finally I want you to understanf that Greece is actually barely paying interest - about 3% of the GDP goes to interest. Debt isn't the reason Greeks have no money. It's just that the Greek economy has gotten a big correction for what it was actually worth, instead of the inflated numbers thanks to fake statistics and excessive spending.

[VforVendetta 2,024]

My father has never worn a suit and earns a very low amount of money, bevause there's no things for him to do. He works for himself and gets orders (building sector), which was hit hardest by the recession here. I guess it's either you falling for framing or you being pre-judged about me.

Debt needs to be paid back, simple as that. Syriza could and should distribute the money more fairly in Greece but has so faf shown no interest in doing what they were democratically chosen to do.

The Southern EU states are the harshest on Greece tbh. Especially Spain. I think the Spanish government is the harshest towards Greece and the French the least.

The power in the EU is indeed unfairly distributed. The little countries all have veto-rights (Malta could block sanctions towards Russis for example) and small countries have more seats per person in the European parliament than big countries. To make up for this I think it's fair that the two most important leaders (biggest countries) handle the foreign relations. It'd be bureaucratic and useless (and people would call it 'undemocratic') to have an apart person doing all foreign and intern relations in the EU, eventhough you could say Juncker does that. 

Greeks don't have to live in poverty. And the debt can actually be paid back. I agree with small or big portions of the debt being paid off if and only if it means that the Greek government will make big structural reforms that actually work, but seemingly Syriza is not at all prepared to do so.

I understand that a big recession and the age of a student makes somebody feel like some sort of protestor with a lot of ideas, but no other system than capitalism has proven to work and you haven't suggested alternatives to the EU or ways it could be improved.

Finally I want you to understanf that Greece is actually barely paying interest - about 3% of the GDP goes to interest. Debt isn't the reason Greeks have no money. It's just that the Greek economy has gotten a big correction for what it was actually worth, instead of the inflated numbers thanks to fake statistics and excessive spending.

By suit I meant that people that had a job and their pride search for food in garbage.

And do you even know how the crisis in Greece begun tbh? 

[Luc 4,776]

By suit I meant that people that had a job and their pride search for food in garbage.

And do you even know how the crisis in Greece begun tbh? 

A PASOK leader had gotten Greece in the Eurozome by saying he'd veto everything from Macedonia if they didn't let them participate. The reasons were culture, history and not political or economic. From then on Greece could buy loans for really cheap, because investors saw the whole Eurozone as safe as the good kids (Germany, the Netherlands). The interest rate was about 3%. The government manipulated the numbers with help from Goldman Sachs (all EU leaders knew about this though) to make their deficit look smaller (which was around 10% ever since Greece joined). In 2009 a new prime minister had announced the numbers were way bigger than statistics said, and that Greece would need a bailout. This money they used to rebuy loans they already had and to bail out the failing Greek banking system. 

Greeks had been living from lended money for years, and now have to pay their debt  parts of the debt could be written off but imo only if Tsipras stops the framing, if they actually find a way to tackle all corruption and tax evasion and if they succeed with other structural reforms (becoming a welfare state instead of a pension state, making private and public employees equal, becoming an export-oriented economy, etc.).

[NewYorkCity 10,536]

I love what Greece is doing and I hope they don't give up.  

 

[Melech 9,900]

 

 

 No offence but you are the one falling on the propaganda, I'm tired of playing games online or visit forums and see all this propaganda and ignorance about my country, I live in Greece, I know members of that take part in Syriza party and much more, I know 1-2 things more than you about what they do and what they don't. Many things you mention are true and most of them are a problem of most EUropean countries not only Greece. Anyway you mention only the part that Greece has to do with the problem, which is less than half the story. You have to search other things like how we entered the EU and why the union need my country in the first place, Maastricht Treaty, a DIctatorship that the US was behind, how the EU works for the G9 and the smaller countries, Siemens etc. 

As for the No to Europe, I wish it was like that at this moment. This Europe is EUrope at it's lowest and I don't wanna be a part of it. Let's see if Angela is truly prepared then to keep her Empire at place, Europe is already falling below dollar when it should have double the power. 

To end this convo (cause sadly I don't have the time to explain everything and to convince you and I need to change your opinion about Capitalism first anyway) I'll say one thing:

When Germany bloodshed Europe they got a pardon and their dept was erased (and they faught on the war, they killed millions), of course now they do the same again, just not with weapons. Now Greece is owing a dept that has to do with bad decisions of governments/corruption (things that are everywhere in EUrope), the fact that we entered the EU in the first place when we weren't and because Greece is a small country and all small caountries of EU get devoured. Yet we still are forced to pay a dept that is impossible to be payed witha frugality that is further destroying our country and making people commit suicides all in the name of the rightful Europe that protects it's memberes and is all about equallity. 

It's not random that the South understands us and speaks about their support all the time, they know the proble. When the North wakes up (including Germans themselves) it will be when this Union of terror and reign will truly crumble.

So before you point your finger on the weak and not the powerhouses of big interests that rule this ''righteous'' Union send your father with his suit to bring you food from the Garbage as a payback for the money he owes to Wolfgang Soible and then come back to talk to be about equality and justice.

 

God you are such an ignorant person and you offend basically every German.

First of all you can't compare WW2 to any situation in Europe. And don't call the EU the 4th Reich it's highly offensive to those who actually lost their lives in there 3rd one.  God your are a victim of leftist or rightist propaganda  

It's always easy to blame the Germans, huh? Germans (including immigrants) did the majority of themselves to get Germany strong. We paid all the debts after WW2 and Germany pays as well the rent for Holocaust surivors. 

Think about your country before you point the finger on other countries. 

[VforVendetta 2,024]

God you are such an ignorant person and you offend basically every German.

First of all you can't compare WW2 to any situation in Europe. And don't call the EU the 4th Reich it's highly offensive to those who actually lost their lives in there 3rd one.  God your are a victim of leftist or rightist propaganda  

It's always easy to blame the Germans, huh? Germans (including immigrants) did the majority of themselves to get Germany strong. We paid all the debts after WW2 and Germany pays as well the rent for Holocaust surivors. 

Think about your country before you point the finger on other countries. 

I point my finger to other countries only when they point theirs in mine first.

[Luc 4,776]

I point my finger to other countries only when they point theirs in mine first.

You did it first!!!11

Simon is only saying comparisions to Nazi Germany are extremely unreasonable (eventhough the current Greek government is the closest to nationalsocialism the Eurozone has seen so far, perhaps even the whole EU). 

Anyways, I want to know how the EU should be according to you. It's easy to repeat populist framing, but I want to know what you think are the problems (with examples) and I want you to give a solution as to how the EU and Eurozone should look like.

I also want you to think about short term vs. middle-long term vs. long term effects of policies. Saying that the austerity ruined the whole economy is true, but that was for the first 5 years of it. Greece's economy was supposed to grow 3% with a primary surplus until Syriza destabilized Greece's whole financial system. In the long term the austerity would have helped rebuild consumer trust and attract more foreign investment. 

Also, before you vote no, rmember that almost all of the proposals were proposed by Syriza (except for tackling tax evasion by farmers, removing tax profits on the islands and a higher tax on yachts).