Greece debt crisis: Eurozone refuses bailout extension

[Luc 4,776]

i thought u liked higher corporate taxes tho

 

anyway yeah, they totally mispent their money. Corruption destroys economies big time

It depends on the situation. If there's less need for a competitive corporate tax rate, then I'd accept a higher rate for multinationals. I do think however that small and medium-sized businesses should be protected and not have too high taxes.

At the moment I think Greece needs to focus on attracting foreign investment, because a consumption-based economy is not going to happen yet with yearly cuts in government spending. They can do that with a neo-liberal agenda (because there's no room for anything else with the EU and trojka): cutting, lowering business and labour taxes, attracting foreign investment with privatisations, smaller labour unions, less red tape and bureaucracy and becoming an export-based economy. I do however think that the elite in Greece should be handled better (huge tax evasion). But there's no room for something like that anymore. Greece is going bankrupt and I think it won't leave the Eurozone nor the EU.

[Economy 53,166]

It depends on the situation. If there's less need for a competitive corporate tax rate, then I'd accept a higher rate for multinationals. I do think however that small and medium-sized businesses should be protected and not have too high taxes.

At the moment I think Greece needs to focus on attracting foreign investment, because a consumption-based economy is not going to happen yet with yearly cuts in government spending. They can do that with a neo-liberal agenda (because there's no room for anything else with the EU and trojka): cutting, lowering business and labour taxes, attracting foreign investment with privatisations, smaller labour unions, less red tape and bureaucracy and becoming an export-based economy. I do however think that the elite in Greece should be handled better (huge tax evasion). But there's no room for something like that anymore. Greece is going bankrupt and I think it won't leave the Eurozone nor the EU.

theyve gotten to the point where they cant soend money on luxuries. It has to be stuff thas an investment only

 

spending on programs that are nice to have but arent critical need to go

 

education, innovation and infrastructure should be the only thing Greece focuses on. Any Country with too much debt in fact should be that way

[Luc 4,776]

theyve gotten to the point where they cant soend money on luxuries. It has to be stuff thas an investment only

 

spending on programs that are nice to have but arent critical need to go

 

education, innovation and infrastructure should be the only thing Greece focuses on. Any Country with too much debt in fact should be that way

I agree, but on the short term firing people who work for the government has a negative effect on the economy and consumption. I think a good solution in the special case of Greece would be to just make heavy cuts and lower taxes and regulations and tax exemptions... for some strange reason for example, farmers don't have to pay income tax. But if you do that, you have to strictly consider what is a farmer and what is not, and check these farmers too.

Socialism (or at least, the European way) relies on trust in the government and trust in the people. That's not possible in a country where tax evasion, elilitarism, corruption and trust in the government is so, so low.

[Economy 53,166]

I agree, but on the short term firing people who work for the government has a negative effect on the economy and consumption. I think a good solution in the special case of Greece would be to just make heavy cuts and lower taxes and regulations and tax exemptions... for some strange reason for example, farmers don't have to pay income tax. But if you do that, you have to strictly consider what is a farmer and what is not, and check these farmers too.

Socialism (or at least, the European way) relies on trust in the government and trust in the people. That's not possible in a country where tax evasion, elilitarism, corruption and trust in the government is so, so low.

This is part of what ive always tried to explain to you and other people

 

Socialism isnt impossible to pull off. Having extra money from taxes to ivnest in infrastructure, education etc can offset some of the downsides socialism has on attracting businesses etc because you become competitive in different ways. Taxes isnt the only thing businesses consider after all

 

And a handful of Countryies in scandinavia and Northern Europe have managed to successfully pull off socialism

 

But if the Government is gonna take ownership of a greater portion of resources from the private sector and decide how to spend it, you need a REALLY competent Government that really knows what its doing

 

Socialism is really hard to make it work because unlike Capitalism where companies and private sector will always be as efficient as possible to try and make money, The Government screwes up more often and uses resources and assets poorly

 

And the larger the Nation, the harder it is to pull socialism off which might explain why for the most part only small Countries have successfuly pulled socialism off

 

A corrupt Country like Greece could NEVER pull off socialism. The less money is managed by their Government the better. Theyve proven they are exceptionally bad at handling their Countries resources

[Luc 4,776]

This is part of what ive always tried to explain to you and other people

 

Socialism isnt impossible to pull off. Having extra money from taxes to ivnest in infrastructure, education etc can offset some of the downsides socialism has on attracting businesses etc because you become competitive in different ways. Taxes isnt the only thing businesses consider after all

 

And a handful of Countryies in scandinavia and Northern Europe have managed to successfully pull off socialism

 

But if the Government is gonna take ownership of a greater portion of resources from the private sector and decide how to spend it, you need a REALLY competent Government that really knows what its doing

 

Socialism is really hard to make it work because unlike Capitalism where companies and private sector will always be as efficient as possible to try and make money, The Government screwes up more often and uses resources and assets poorly

 

And the larger the Nation, the harder it is to pull socialism off which might explain why for the most part only small Countries have successfuly pulled socialism off

 

A corrupt Country like Greece could NEVER pull off socialism. The less money is managed by their Government the better. Theyve proven they are exceptionally bad at handling their Countries resources

Well, you don't necessarily need to be competitive. You can also have a consumption-based economy with small and medium-sized businesses mostly. That's like my utopia. An economy based on an export surplus is good, but it hurts (mostly poor) countries. 

Capitalism is hard to manage... regulations need to take place to protect people (reducing pollution, reducing energy use). If you have a pure capitalist economy you'll become like Bangladesh where the people are slaves to multinationals like H&M. And also pure capitalism will lead to big, big bubbles like the one that caused the Depression.

[Economy 53,166]

Well, you don't necessarily need to be competitive. You can also have a consumption-based economy with small and medium-sized businesses mostly. That's like my utopia. An economy based on an export surplus is good, but it hurts (mostly poor) countries. 

Capitalism is hard to manage... regulations need to take place to protect people (reducing pollution, reducing energy use). If you have a pure capitalist economy you'll become like Bangladesh where the people are slaves to multinationals like H&M. And also pure capitalism will lead to big, big bubbles like the one that caused the Depression.

Capitalism isnt hard to manage, because you simply dont do much. The Governemnt whatches on the sidelines isntead of getting involved in everything...

 

But then again, i never supported "Pure Capitalism"

 

Some people get the feeling im an extreme right winged which im not. Id consider myself Centre-Right Winged. I like Capitalism to an extent but not to a total extreme

 

I support some things Republicans for example might not such as decent minimum wages for example

[Better Day 5,766]

I haven't been fully following the whole Greek debt crisis but I know the crisis is getting worse. Now the banks in Greece are now shut. People are now limited at the amount of money they can lift. 

I don't know what the government could do. I would suggest the government takig over the banks (like Labour did with RBS in 2008) however the government may not have the money to take over the bank. 

In all honestly I would suggest Greece leaving the Euro because the euro is frankly not working. Too many countries almost went under due to the euro. I don't know how this would impact on the Greeks. 

 

[Economy 53,166]

I'm really happy with the current development. The Greek crisis should be a very good lesson to all other populist, out of reality political parties all over Europe like Podemos in Spain for example. 

Also it is time to stop this historical injustice. Greece had received hundreds of billions of euros in the last 3 decades. Money that was spent not for improving the economy, assuring technological progress or such but everything was wasted on pensions, 13th, 14th and even 15th salary. Greek people don't pay taxes, there are always exceptions for them, something we can't say about all other eastern European members of the EU, they have ridiculous regulations with extremely strong unions and basically their economy is a total ****. (and I'm saying this as an economist).

To put it into perspective. In 2014 Greece exported goods for around 36bln. euros. Meanwhile Bulgaria who has 4 and a half times smaller economy, has exported goods for 28 bln. euros. It's so upsetting seeing so many european money wasted in Greece while other countries such as Bulgaria and Romania are left with leftovers...What is even more upsetting is that Bulgaria and Romania comply with the Maastricht economic criteria but apparently this doesn't mean anything for the European politicians.

Another example to see how bad and not fair the EU money distribution is... For the period 2014-2020, Bulgaria will receive 8 bln. euros in total!!!! FOR 7 FUC**** YEARS!!! Meanwhile Greece receives 1 bln. euros A DAY from the Central European Bank, the mechanism for support amounts 82 bln. euros and the european funds allocated for the period are more than 20 bln. euros..

 

Enough is enough , dear greek friends. It's time to pay the bill!!!!!!

they like to throw tantrusm what do u expect

 

and ur an economist? thats sick!

 

im not an economist officially but i do really love economy and im into economics and do some of my own investments etc

 

where are u from?

[me069 284]

they like to throw tantrusm what do u expect

 

and ur an economist? thats sick!

 

im not an economist officially but i do really love economy and im into economics and do some of my own investments etc

 

where are u from?

Sorry to butt in the conversation but I can safely suggest he's a fellow Bulgarian  

@Economy, you've proven yourself to be an excellent economist here. I'm also studying economics but I feel like I am nowhere near both your level of knowledge.

I have some questions about the current situation in Greece:

1. What would it mean for Greece if they left the Eurozone?
2. What would it mean for the Eurozone if Greece left?
3. How is it legal for the banks to deny people withdrawal of their own money? I mean technically they are not denying payments but they are closing the banks until the referendum and plan on putting a withdrawal limit on the ATMs.

I have suggestions but I'd like another opinion. 

[VforVendetta 2,024]

Greek leaders' behaviour is ridiculous.

The country is bankrupt and they act like it's a game and then they just walk out of negotiations?! And then?

Or they can bent their heads to the tyrrany of THIS Europe and let all Greek people die and suffer, like it's them who owe the money, I see your point.

[Economy 53,166]

Sorry to butt in the conversation but I can safely suggest he's a fellow Bulgarian  

@Economy, you've proven yourself to be an excellent economist here. I'm also studying economics but I feel like I am nowhere near both your level of knowledge.

I have some questions about the current situation in Greece:

1. What would it mean for Greece if they left the Eurozone?
2. What would it mean for the Eurozone if Greece left?
3. How is it legal for the banks to deny people withdrawal of their own money? I mean technically they are not denying payments but they are closing the banks until the referendum and plan on putting a withdrawal limit on the ATMs.

I have suggestions but I'd like another opinion. 

Greece leaving in itself wouldnt be that catastrophic. Their economy is not that large and in terms of changes that would ave on trade, that shouldnt affect the EU or the world THAT much other than making the EU look weak and ununited

 

However in this case because they are so broke, without financial aid they will innevitably default... a developed Nation defaulting on debt payments is virtually unheard of these days and if it were to happen it could cause distrust among investors among the entire EU questioning how safe the system is...

 

IF investors stopped seeing Government bonds as a safe investment that holds virtually 0 risk, they would start demanding higher returns for greater risk... and because Government bonds influence the entire fixed-income market, all types of bonds would rise with them including Corporate bonds...

 

Under such a scenario even 0% interest rates from Central Banks and Quantitative Easing could not prevent all forms of credit costs from rising... And because the financial system is globaly interlinked, the contaigen could spread beyond Europe

 

The economy is weak and cannot handle higher interest rates at the moment which is why Central Banks from almost every Country has the rates at historic lows to try and influence all types of credit to remain cheap from mortgages to car loans to student loans etc

 

If bond yields rise from distrust and we have a bond market collapse and credit costs skyrocket under the current weak economy, the whole system could implode and we could end up in a great recession again...

 

All this because of 1 small Country... Thats why so much attention is being placed on them. They may be small but because of their position in the EU, they have the potential to cause a lot of damage if things go wrong!

[RAMROD 118,170]

I heard there literally no bank nites in ATMs there.

That is scary tbh.

It might cause riot and crime level might be hightened.

Keep it strong, Greeks!

[Luc 4,776]

Greece leaving in itself wouldnt be that catastrophic. Their economy is not that large and in terms of changes that would ave on trade, that shouldnt affect the EU or the world THAT much other than making the EU look weak and ununited

 

However in this case because they are so broke, without financial aid they will innevitably default... a developed Nation defaulting on debt payments is virtually unheard of these days and if it were to happen it could cause distrust among investors among the entire EU questioning how safe the system is...

 

IF investors stopped seeing Government bonds as a safe investment that holds virtually 0 risk, they would start demanding higher returns for greater risk... and because Government bonds influence the entire fixed-income market, all types of bonds would rise with them including Corporate bonds...

 

Under such a scenario even 0% interest rates from Central Banks and Quantitative Easing could not prevent all forms of credit costs from rising... And because the financial system is globaly interlinked, the contaigen could spread beyond Europe

 

The economy is weak and cannot handle higher interest rates at the moment which is why Central Banks from almost every Country has the rates at historic lows to try and influence all types of credit to remain cheap from mortgages to car loans to student loans etc

 

If bond yields rise from distrust and we have a bond market collapse and credit costs skyrocket under the current weak economy, the whole system could implode and we could end up in a great recession again...

 

All this because of 1 small Country... Thats why so much attention is being placed on them. They may be small but because of their position in the EU, they have the potential to cause a lot of damage if things go wrong!

I haven't ever heard that as a reason. I do agree, but think it only applies to countries that also have a big public debt and a population that continuously votes for populism (Maybe Spain, Belgium and Italy could be hurt).

In fact, demand for German/Dutch bonds rose A LOT this week because the're seen as safe havens.

The main problem is that Eurozone membership isn't something you can lose. There's no law that says you can leave the Eurozone and no law for how you can. Some experts think Greece will install the Euro as a second currency that will later be reimplemented, some think Greece will have to leave the EU and NATO. Politicians also fear increased influence from Russia, because Greeks are culturally very close to Russia (same religion), have a good location, etc. That's why the US demands Europe to give debt relief.

But my conspiracy theory is that Tsipras and Varoufakis planned this all along, that their ultimate goal was to leave the Eurozone and cause chaos in Europe. They are literally going bankrupt over disagreements with a few percentage points of cuts.

[Luc 4,776]

Or they can bent their heads to the tyrrany of THIS Europe and let all Greek people die and suffer, like it's them who owe the money, I see your point.

But what exactly is wrong with Europe in its current state?

Level of democracy?

Not when Tsipras doesn't want to raise taxes on yachts and the rich.

Not when he put 'no' above 'yes' for the referendum 

Not when Syriza got the chance to make a government because of the undemocratic rule that the biggest party receives 50 free seats in the parliament.

Syriza was supposed to tackle the corruption, tax evasion and tax the rich in a way that worked. They haven't shown interest in doing any of that in the talks with European leaders. Tsipras and Varoufakis have lied continuously to Greece (the trojka for example has not demanded wage cuts nor pension cuts).

I wonder what will happen tomorrow. And I see both benefits and cons in Greece leaving the EU after their referendum (which is actually on Eurozone membership, but Tsipras lies to make it sound like there's a third option besides cuts and default).

[VforVendetta 2,024]

But what exactly is wrong with Europe in its current state?

Level of democracy?

Not when Tsipras doesn't want to raise taxes on yachts and the rich.

Not when he put 'no' above 'yes' for the referendum 

Not when Syriza got the chance to make a government because of the undemocratic rule that the biggest party receives 50 free seats in the parliament.

Syriza was supposed to tackle the corruption, tax evasion and tax the rich in a way that worked. They haven't shown interest in doing any of that in the talks with European leaders. Tsipras and Varoufakis have lied continuously to Greece (the trojka for example has not demanded wage cuts nor pension cuts).

I wonder what will happen tomorrow. And I see both benefits and cons in Greece leaving the EU after their referendum (which is actually on Eurozone membership, but Tsipras lies to make it sound like there's a third option besides cuts and default).

This is actually propaganda of the media that serve EUrop and you keep shallowing them all, no offence your position is different.Everyhting is wrong with Europe. I am a supporter of Europe but not this Europe of the imperialism of the powerful and corruption where the powerful countries drink the blood of the others. Do you realise that half of the people here can't even find a job? I have many friends in University that need to pass 15 days with 20 Euros when just going to the Uni costs you 1,5 Euro the lowest and eating much more, aka impossible. Honestly, how much do you spend in a week? It's like the people took  or stole any money cause all the people I know work for their whole lives and took nothing from Angela Merkel. 3% of Europe keeps getting richer and the other 97% keeps getting poorer while Europe keeps sinking into fasism and decay. 

 

As for Tsipras, he did many of the things you refer to, don't listen all the propaganda, he can't do everything in 5 months, he will lose his influence over people. (and he took power because of support and democracy, not because of fear and deceive like the previous one of the right)

And those in Europe that keep pushing Greece into this devastating frugality don't care and don't want the government to take the money from the rich people, they serve their interests actually and it's mirrored from their statements/careers and the politics in their Countries. 

Anyway Refenderum will happen in 5 of July cause that's what Democracy is all about no matter how much Europe and the media keep frightening people inside and outside the country and people will probably and hopefully choose no.

It's a no to these cruel cuts, not a No to Euro. It should be a No to Euro though, not for revenge or anything, people have no fault in that, but so that this rotten Europe can crumble and a new Europe can be built again under the ideas that made this place so glorious, not the 4th reich.