Israel/Palestine Conflict Thread

[Pandemiya 61]

Nobody here thinks Palestinians can't be guilty of crimes of violence.

Can we drop those hysterical quote memes on both sides omg it's making me feel embarrassed to spend so much time here.

The quote I posted is important so people who don't understand can understand that the palestinians don't want peace and will never agree to an independent palestine (offered THREE!!! times to them) with Jews existing on this planet. :-)

[Pandemiya 61]

@lego

Still waiting on those Torah quotes calling for terrorism, like you said.

 

[lego 44,165]

 

“It shall be that when Hashem, your God, gives you rest from all your enemies all around, in the Land that Hashem, your God, gives you as an inheritance to possess it, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under the heaven. Do not forget it!” 

(Deuteronomy 25: 19; also see Exodus 17:14 and Numbers 24:20)

 “Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox, and sheep, camel and ass,”(Samuel I, 15:3).  - call for genocide.

Palestinians are often called "Amalek" in Israel today

 

watch the whole video, that part is from 8:00 

 

All nations shall be terrorized by the followers of Yahweh.

Deuteronomy

2:25 This very day I will begin to put the terror and fear of you on all the nations under heaven. They will hear reports of you and will tremble and be in anguish because of you."

4:34 Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?

 

2:33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.

2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain.

I can find more but I don't bother.

If I would be idiot like someone else who tried to prove what is the "true version of a religion", I'd say this is the real Judaism and the verses are very clear, and no need for historical BS, every extremist Jew follows the real Judaism and these verses prove that. And the Israeli journalist from the video confirms that.

But I never said that. Just following your logic.

[Melech 9,900]

that David Sheen is an ignorant and stupid idiot. He followed the [pro-israel] left politican to the toilet who also happens of having a jewish background.. That's what I call an assault. I can't believe something of a person who doesn't even know respect. Not only that.

They held their speeches on the day when the Kristallnacht were. They are also famous for comparing the Israeli government to the Nazis, which is in fact anti-semitic. 

[lego 44,165]

that David Sheen is an ignorant and stupid idiot. He followed the [pro-israel] left politican to the toilet who also happens of having a jewish background.. That's what I call an assault. I can't believe something of a person who doesn't even know respect. Not only that.

They held their speeches on the day when the Kristallnacht were. They are also famous for comparing the Israeli government to the Nazis, which is in fact anti-semitic. 

Wow,  so everyone of different opinion than you is stupid idiot and ignorant. That's what I call tolerance. lol

 

He didn't assault him, he followed him because that coward politician falsely accused him of antisemitism. And that made his life in Israel, in danger. He was receiving death and rape threats and he's spat on in public.

 

He's a brave Jewish man who dares to speak against Israeli government and he has arguments and everything he says is well documented.

[Melech 9,900]

Wow,  so everyone of different opinion than you is stupid idiot and ignorant. That's what I call tolerance. lol

 

He didn't assault him, he followed him because that coward politician falsely accused him of antisemitism. And that made his life in Israel, in danger. He was receiving death and rape threats and he's spat on in public.

 

He's a brave Jewish man who dares to speak against Israeli government and he has arguments and everything he says is well documented.

Well you just did the same for what you called me out for. calling Gregor Gysi a coward   But I can guranatee you that he is maybe the best politician Germany had in the last years/decades. I doubt that Gregor Gysi has that impact in Israel to make Sheen's life dangerous  I doubt that most Israelis even know Gysi. 

They got invited by two leftist politicians who always spread conspiracies theories about Jews and are always anti-semitic and Gysi was against the Anti-Israel path his party were going. 

 

You call him brave for holding a speech at the anniversary of Kristallnacht and comparing Israel to Nazi Germany? Wow, and you don't consider yourself anti-semitic? 

[lego 44,165]

Well you just did the same for what you called me out for. calling Gregor Gysi a coward   But I can guranatee you that he is maybe the best politician Germany had in the last years/decades. I doubt that Gregor Gysi has that impact in Israel to make Sheen's life dangerous  I doubt that most Israelis even know Gysi. 

They got invited by two leftist politicians who always spread conspiracies theories about Jews and are always anti-semitic and Gysi was against the Anti-Israel path his party were going. 

 

You call him brave for holding a speech at the anniversary of Kristallnacht and comparing Israel to Nazi Germany? Wow, and you don't consider yourself anti-semitic? 

327 Holocaust survivors and their descedants condemned Israel for genocide of Palestinians, in their own words.

This is part of their letter:

"We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia."

Are they antisemitic too?

Everyone who doesn't think like you must be antisemitic.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/holocaust-survivors-and-their-descendants-accuse-israel-of-genocide-9687994.html

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.612072

He's brave for fighting against racism and for human rights.

 

[Melech 9,900]

327 Holocaust survivors and their descedants condemned Israel for genocide of Palestinians, in their own words.

This is part of their letter:

"We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia."

Are they antisemitic too?

Everyone who doesn't think like you must be antisemitic.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/holocaust-survivors-and-their-descendants-accuse-israel-of-genocide-9687994.html

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.612072

He's brave for fighting against racism and for human rights.

 

You don't get why am I calling anti-semitic, don't you?  

It's not even because he criticizes Israel. It's firstly because he hold his Anti-Israel speeches on the Reichskristallnacht anniversary (in the country which committed those crimes) and because he compared Israel with Nazi Germany which is hypocrisy. Nazi Germany is no way comparable to Israel. 

 

[Melech 9,900]

"

I am an Israeli citizen. I am an American citizen. I am also completing a Master's degree in Holocaust studies and a resident of Gush Etzion, a bloc of settlements in the West Bank in Israel. Now that I've laid all my cards out on the table, I am going to rail against a phenomenon that has developed over the past few years: comparing Israelis to Nazis. The comparison is insulting and blatantly, historically inaccurate. 

Let's begin with the facts. Nazi Germany was a murderous totalitarian dictatorship intent on taking over Europe and cleansing their conquered territories. Driven by the economic depression in their country, Hitler and the Nazi party created a hierarchy based on Social Darwinism, eugenics, and anti-Semitic ideology.

The Israeli Knesset, by contrast, is democratically elected, comprised of many parties of various viewpoints, and even MKs who call for the destruction of the very government they represent. Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East, with equal rights for women, homos-xuals and Israeli Arabs.

After invading Poland in September 1939, Germany set out in June 1941, to invade the Soviet Union in order to fight a sweeping ideological war against Communism. Under this guise, they began rounding up defenseless Jews and shooting them (they began with men, but after a few weeks, also included women and children). By 1942, the Nazi government had erected various death camps to enact the "Final Solution:" the total extermination of the Jewish people throughout Europe, and eventually, the entire world.

The Israeli response in Gaza is in no way reminiscent of the systematic, cold-blooded murder perpetrated by the Nazis.

Fact: in 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, handing it over to the Palestinians. Instead of using the beautiful infrastructure that existed, the homes and greenhouses, to build their own communities, the Palestinian leadership burned and destroyed anything and everything that the Israelis left.

Fact: Hamas has been baiting Israel by shooting rockets into Israel and, one month ago, by kidnapping three innocent boys on their way home from school for the weekend.

Fact: since the beginning of the ground invasion of Gaza, the IDF has uncovered dozens of tunnels dug from Gaza into Israel whose purpose is to enable terrorists to smuggle their way into Israel to murder innocent Israelis.

Have there been civilian casualties in Gaza since the operation began? Yes. Is it unfortunate? Yes. But Israel has extended generosity in the form of temporary ceasefires, blood donation and medical services to Gaza civilians (not to mention the warnings they give to civilians to evacuate buildings that house weapons before destroying those buildings). Are any of Israel's actions in the slightest way similar to that of Nazis during World War II? Absolutely, unequivocally, no. 

I stand firmly behind Israel’s actions from a political and moral stance, and, though it pains me, I understand that there are those throughout the world who disagree with my point of view. However, as a student of the history of the Holocaust, as a thinking individual, and, most of all, as a Jew, I can no longer sit silently while comparisons are drawn between Israelis and Nazis, and while uniquely Holocaust references are thrown at Israel. Comparing Israelis, Jews, to the destructive Nazi regime whose very goal was to eliminate us is at best ignorant, and at worst, horrifying and repugnant. Nazi Germany was one of the most oppressive, evil and far-reaching regimes in history. Yehuda Bauer, academic adviser to Yad Vashem, asserts that one aspect that differentiates the Holocaust from all other genocides was that all Jews, not just German Jews or European Jews, but worldwide Jewry, was targeted for extermination. I am saddened that today, in a time that humankind has the opportunity for exposure, for education and enlightenment, there exists such a misunderstanding of history and truth.

And just to prove my point even further: what of the world’s blind and deaf acceptance of the anti-Semitic riots and violence throughout Europe—is that not more redolent of World War II? Perhaps the Western world has not learned as much as they claim, and that is the most frightening of all."

http://www.thejewishweek.com/editorial-opinion/opinion/countering-vile-comparison-israelis-nazis

[Didymus 34,380]

The quote I posted is important so people who don't understand can understand that the palestinians don't want peace and will never agree to an independent palestine (offered THREE!!! times to them) with Jews existing on this planet. :-)

Well, sorry to break it to you, but that is just wrong. The Palestinians have often offered peace negotiations if Israel stopped building illegal settlements and Israel has NEVER agreed with these terms. This is clearly documented. By now it's obvious that the Palestinian people want a two-state solution (which even Hamas has theoretically agreed to) with the UN as a key force to keep the peace and ensure that no illegal practices take place.

The solutions that Palestinians/Hamas want have nothing to do with the global presence of Jews. I don't even know where you'd get an idea like that.

[Didymus 34,380]

@Simon Interesting how he only starts speaking about events after 2005.

He has a point: comparing Nazis to Jews is just ridiculous, but you'd be a fool to believe that there were no Israeli Jewish groups quickly after WW II who are comparable to terrorist groups of today, who had an ethnic cleansing agenda against the Palestinians and were condemned by even the official organ of Zionism. And still Israel hides documents of its armies' atrocities, as testified by Israeli historians who attempted to research the war of 1947-1949.

So I can only see that article as an evasion of the real reasons why Jews are compared to Nazis: an excessive use of violence. Not saying that's accurate, just saying that not owning up to the atrocities that were made in the name of Israeli independence is not doing enough to address the real accusations made against Jews who support Israel and its actions.

[hmm 979]

Well, sorry to break it to you, but that is just wrong. The Palestinians have often offered peace negotiations if Israel stopped building illegal settlements and Israel has NEVER agreed with these terms. This is clearly documented. By now it's obvious that the Palestinian people want a two-state solution (which even Hamas has theoretically agreed to) with the UN as a key force to keep the peace and ensure that no illegal practices take place.

Even Saudi Arabia has offered recognition of Israel if it returns to its 1967 borders  (Israel and Saudi Arabia are closet allies anyway but that's not really relevant) 

[Didymus 34,380]

Even Saudi Arabia has offered recognition of Israel if it returns to its 1967 borders  

Didn't know that :air:

[Melech 9,900]

@Simon Interesting how he only starts speaking about events after 2005.

He has a point: comparing Nazis to Jews is just ridiculous, but you'd be a fool to believe that there were no Israeli Jewish groups quickly after WW II who are comparable to terrorist groups of today, who had an ethnic cleansing agenda against the Palestinians and were condemned by even the official organ of Zionism. And still Israel hides documents of its armies' atrocities, as testified by Israeli historians who attempted to research the war of 1947-1949.

So I can only see that article as an evasion of the real reasons why Jews are compared to Nazis: an excessive use of violence. Not saying that's accurate, just saying that not owning up to the atrocities that were made in the name of Israeli independence is not doing enough to address the real accusations made against Jews who support Israel and its actions.

Well, I wasn't denying what he said. I was just pointing out that comparing Jews to the Nazis is anti-Semitic and holding a speech on the anniversary of the Reichskristallnacht is provocative in a bad way.  

[Didymus 34,380]

Well, I wasn't denying what he said. I was just pointing out that comparing Jews to the Nazis is anti-Semitic and holding a speech on the anniversary of the Reichskristallnacht is provocative in a bad way.  

It's not anti-Semitic. It's specifically about Israel and the Jews who support/engage in it. I agree that people who just say "The Jews are doing the same as the Nazi's back in the day" leave room to doubt what I say, but I think even every idiot knows that not all Jews live in Israel and/or support everything that's going on there. Just a quick look at the respect with which WW II and the Jewish extermination is treated in European and American education, media, cultural preservation sites, laws (denying the Holocaust being illegal while denying other genocides is left untouched),... is the perfect reminder of this perceived difference between the Jews who suffered and the Jews who support and call for more violence. I'm not denying that some people get swung into the belief that all Jews who lived past WW II agree with Israeli policies, but there are still thousands of people who dare to compare Nazi's to Jews without shooting them on the street.

Not gonna comment on that speech thing 'cause I don't know the guy.