'Hunger Games' star criticizes Taylor Swift, Madonna for 'rampant' appropriation of black culture

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

​I totally get what's being said. I just don't necessarily agree with it. Like I said, if it's a clear incidence of stereotyping or racism, cultural appropriation is bad. But how is simply enjoying elements of another culture bad? Notice how it's only criticised when it's white people doing it? That's what bugs me the most. Any race can copy elements of any other race without suffering s**t for it unless they're white. When Azealia Banks was talking about people stealing black culture, I found it pretty ironic that she has a song on her album where she partly sings in Spanish. It's no use defending her by saying that she grew up in a predominantly Hispanic neighbourhood and knew some of the language. If a white, non-Hispanic did this, they would be criticised for trying to exploit the Hispanic community to get them to buy their album. The message is clear: white people cannot step outside their own culture. And that's BS.

I think also that we want to see racism where it doesn't necessarily exist. The black hair thing, for instance. I know what you mean about natural black hair being seen as "inappropriate" for the work place, but so are lots of different hair styles of any race. I even questioned if my almost waist-length, wavy, voluminous hair worn loose was appropriate for a job interview and if I should sweep it into a bun. Similarly, most women wouldn't regard pigtails or a mohican to be appropriate for the workplace either. The idea of black hair being the only inappropriate style is a bit of a fabrication likely thought up by black people themselves. I've never heard a white person say that blacks should relax their hair to be taken seriously, yet blacks do this out of their own accord.

And dressing "thuggish" or "black" when you're male generally means wearing your hood up. That's a naturally threatening form of dress to a lot of people because your features are obscured and in Western society, we like to see a full profile to feel comfortable. Which is why there's strong opposition to the burqa. Boys from my area who dress "thuggish" are generally seen as threatening not because the outfit reminds them of black people but because it is genuinely the way that a section of troublemakers who we call "neds" dress in my country. And these people we label as troublemakers are 98% white. The outfit is not connected to race in our eyes.

These are the things you have to think about. Look at them in a different light. We're too quick to call out racism nowadays.

​Racism is prejudice and power though, and thats what makes it particular for white people. Other minority groups can and do appropriate other ones disrespectfully, but we live in a white-centric society, where representation is entirely skewed, so ofc we aren't going to be hearing about all the instances of hispanic people appropriating black culture, etc etc. Even then, some would argue that Hispanic people do not have much if any more privilege than Black people, or they have similar strife @ the hands of white people that bonds them with other minorities. Its definitely a different type of privilege, but they also do not have the social power required to be systemically racist. It definitely happens though. When Pharrell wore that Native American [sic] headdress for that magazine, it was definitely cultural appropriation. It was when Lana did it too. White people have a ton of privilege that lets them go in and out of other cultures without most of the repercussions. Thats why it may seem pointed at them.

Also, Racism doesn't have to be intentional; in fact socialization accounts for quite a lot of it, but we still should point out at the minimum "problematic" behavior, because it does help to counteract everyday acts of racism like micro aggression- the likes of which people still feel similar levels of being accosted from. (That is to say that blatant acts of racism can be just as infuriating as the everyday black jokes white (and other) people make to black people)

Dressing Thuggish is not as simple as that, in fact the term "thug" is often politicized to dehumanize black victims of crimes -- they bring up the fact that they were "arrested once" or any kind of negative stimuli that discourages the average person from sympathizing with them. White people on the other hand who sometimes commit the most heinous of crimes do not have to worry about this, as the media often publicizes the various accounts from friends who "Never saw this coming" or claim that "He was such a cool guy" and they will use pictures of the person from their high school/college graduation, or a picture of them smiling, rather than a mug shot. This is an example of what the modern term "thug" really refers to, especially in America. Shady people in their young-adult stage with hoods can be universal -- you don't know they are black in a hood, but its the fact that if they are that they are immediately seen as more of a threat. Media reports Black crime disproportionate to the actual amount of crimes committed to who the majority victims are, so its no wonder that people have assumptions and beliefs like this. Its perpetuated constantly. This is an example of white people being able to weave in and out of culture. They can emulate black people, and act "thuggish", but often don't have to actually be seen as a real thug by society, which is more than problematic.

No one said black hair is the only politicized hair style ever really, and you dont have to have a person on the street say that 'your hair is inappropriate" to know that it is. Society reinforces it on a daily basis. Black people change their hairs to assimilate to the majority culture because it literally improves their chances of success. When a black girl @ my school straightens her hair from its regular curl or afro style, she receives the highest praise possible. Its things like this that let people know that assimilating (which is NOT appropriation btw ) is "good". 

It isn't "made up" racism. People hear the term racism and want to assume that a lot of it isnt actually racism because thats an incredibly uncomforting thought for the average privileged (or not) person, because most people dont like to think negatively about themselves, let alone admit to being a little bit racist. Unintentional racism, as shown by studies, still hurts people, so simply letting people off the hook by saying "well, i didnt mean to" is not really productive at all. That wouldn't be so bad, but people also aren't willing to reflect on what they've done that was problematic, so its an endless cycle of hurt and not acknowledging it. If people were to be unintentionally racist, but realize it and try to avoid it or actually improve things, things wouldn't be so polarized. The black hair thing IS an example of institutional racism - it supports the majority and discredits minorities. Yes, there is practicality with hair in certain jobs (like hair getting in the way, etc.) but black women who wear their hair normally, or in other "black" styles are also disproportionately discredited for jobs because they don't look "professional", or really in essence "white-friendly". 

 

 

[Higher 2,406]

I don't think the discussion on race is equal. Its always a black or white issue.

They have a bigger history with each other. 

[PaperIz 7,308]

Another thing, I hope she knows that picture of Aretha Franklin was in Katy's video because the Respect part. There were also other foods besides watermelon  

[JazzGa 14,512]

That's a very powerful quote at the end. However, at the same time, anyone can have whatever kind of f--king hairstyle they want

[Navy 495]

Wow I just watched the video. 

This little girl might actually be stupid  

The watermelon and franklin part  "not only are white people becoming rappers" - WHITE PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO BECOME RAPPERS.

This girl is stupid and so is everyone who agrees with. Being inspired by culture from another culture is such a huge part of the world globally. I'm so tired of this culture appropriation trend, abunch of people like this girl trying to act educated about it too  

[Florian 19,916]

Martin Luther King would want to die again if he watched this video. 

For decades black people have fought for equality and this girl just made 2 steps back. It's like if she wanted a "white world" and a "black world" with their own culture and these two world can't exchange. Well, if It's what she wants she just needs to go back 50 years ago.

[Didymus 34,379]

​Yes, celebrities (or anyone of us for that matter) are free to follow their (/our) preference. If one likes a specific type of music, fashion, culture, etc., there's no problem with that -  as long as respect for the ones who originated them is observed. And how do we observe respect? By researching about its origin to ensure that no one would be offended of what we do or wear or whatever. If not, then at least show support to them once they do need one. I think any kind of support would be welcome, well not by everyone within the community (like all cases) but at least by some which I believe is more than enough already. 

​Agreed in essence, I just think it's not that easy to do that. You could easily use this kind of logic to criticize some of Gaga's fashion choices (her wearing of the burqa, "Black Jesus", the nun's habit, the use of Biblical stories for her own music video, the sign of providence, her superficial lyrical and fashionable references to Greek and Roman culture,...) and yet I'm quite sure you wouldn't think that Gaga deserves to be called out for this. Which is, in a sense, quite ironic since Gaga does these things on purpose, specifically to shock and create outrage.

I'm not being super serious when I extend people's arguments into the extreme (where you could say that Gaga calling her yoga classes "yoga" is culturally insensitive because she has no clue about the historical development of the practice and the different forms that it has taken on throughout history and is promoting a one-sided deformation of the technique), but I do think it's useful to point to problems in them. It's, in my opinion, wrong to claim that black people's concerns about cultural disrespect is fundamentally different from the concerns of religious people when they see "their" symbols and practices being inverted for the sake of entertainment. Yet I know that a lot of people who will stand by the horror of cultural appropriation in pop culture will laugh at these people and say that religious people are ignorant idiots who don't deserve our respect.

So no, I don't believe that the respect argument is accurate for the majority of people who clearly pick and choose the groups who deserve respect, and who completely ignore the fact that black people might not even know that much about how the cultural elements they defend (and others) developed historically and to who they are indebted. I think the real key lies in the reason why so many people nowadays identify or sympathize with the black community specifically and why so many complaints about appropriation are coming from "them" nowadays, making the entire rhetoric of appropriation beside the actual point.

But I get you

[Mills 446]

​Agreed in essence, I just think it's not that easy to do that. You could easily use this kind of logic to criticize some of Gaga's fashion choices (her wearing of the burqa, "Black Jesus", the nun's habit, the use of Biblical stories for her own music video, the sign of providence, her superficial lyrical and fashionable references to Greek and Roman culture,...) and yet I'm quite sure you wouldn't think that Gaga deserves to be called out for this. Which is, in a sense, quite ironic since Gaga does these things on purpose, specifically to shock and create outrage.

I'm not being super serious when I extend people's arguments into the extreme (where you could say that Gaga calling her yoga classes "yoga" is culturally insensitive because she has no clue about the historical development of the practice and the different forms that it has taken on throughout history and is promoting a one-sided deformation of the technique), but I do think it's useful to point to problems in them. It's, in my opinion, wrong to claim that black people's concerns about cultural disrespect is fundamentally different from the concerns of religious people when they see "their" symbols and practices being inverted for the sake of entertainment. Yet I know that a lot of people who will stand by the horror of cultural appropriation in pop culture will laugh at these people and say that religious people are ignorant idiots who don't deserve our respect.

So no, I don't believe that the respect argument is accurate for the majority of people who clearly pick and choose the groups who deserve respect, and who completely ignore the fact that black people might not even know that much about how the cultural elements they defend (and others) developed historically and to who they are indebted. I think the real key lies in the reason why so many people nowadays identify or sympathize with the black community specifically and why so many complaints about appropriation are coming from "them" nowadays, making the entire rhetoric of appropriation beside the actual point.

But I get you

​Agreed. Giving respect is arguably one of the easiest to do and yet also one of the most difficult to give, since it entirely depends on the person and the party he/she would want to respect or not. But I disagree that I wouldn't think and agree that Gaga deserves to be condemned by the people who were offended by the things she has done, wore, and said through her public appearances and music videos which are also aimed to make profit. I love the music videos of Alejandro and Judas and I find them visually appealing, but I understand that through borrowing the symbolisms and cultures of others who were and still are also oppressed for their very own way of living, she (like the others as I've already mentioned from my first post here) has only invited criticisms, both deserved and undeserved. With this said, I, too, understand your stand regarding this issue.

And as always, it's great to read your thoughts, Didy. The best conversations are the ones who share different views but still be able to accept and understand the point of the other without just merely discrediting them for the sake of discrediting.  

[aaronyoji 2,007]

​And therein in the bolded part is the problem. It isn't serious to them. They don't see it as serious and they don't care that other people do. I just wish I could show my professor these posts so she could counter them in a better way than I could 

​its because a large group of, though not all, of the opponents to this girl's argument have not had to deal with racism. they can brush it off, say theyre tired of the topic and log off. people like this young actress have to think about these things every day. 

 

what i hate is this wannabe reverse psychology of "so if black people have white hair and own nice things are they appropriating white culture/??? durrr" like NO STOP WITH THAT ****. no. just no. 

"i doubt black culture is more than twerking and grills" YES it is, it is a lot more than that, like jazz or blues or funk, but oh no, people like mark ronson and meghan tranny are the faces of those genres now it's sad. 

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

meghan tranny 

​

 No need for slurs sis  

I'm not being super serious when I extend people's arguments into the extreme (where you could say that Gaga calling her yoga classes "yoga" is culturally insensitive because she has no clue about the historical development of the practice and the different forms that it has taken on throughout history and is promoting a one-sided deformation of the technique), but I do think it's useful to point to problems in them. It's, in my opinion, wrong to claim that black people's concerns about cultural disrespect is fundamentally different from the concerns of religious people when they see "their" symbols and practices being inverted for the sake of entertainment. Yet I know that a lot of people who will stand by the horror of cultural appropriation in pop culture will laugh at these people and say that religious people are ignorant idiots who don't deserve our respect.

So no, I don't believe that the respect argument is accurate for the majority of people who clearly pick and choose the groups who deserve respect, and who completely ignore the fact that black people might not even know that much about how the cultural elements they defend (and others) developed historically and to who they are indebted. I think the real key lies in the reason why so many people nowadays identify or sympathize with the black community specifically and why so many complaints about appropriation are coming from "them" nowadays, making the entire rhetoric of appropriation beside the actual point.

But I get you

​This is a really interesting point 

The cultural appropriation of religious/spiritual cultures is also a problem, I guess people just don't see it as such because its kind of swept under the rug unfortunately... a lot of spiritual things especially. I don't necessarily think like... Christianity (in America) is really being appropriated on such a wide scale, especially since a lot of religions have the mindset that they WANT other people to assimilate to their culture, even if its in the most basic way or silly way it still spreads the culture. 

I think thats one difference, but obv. that doesnt apply to every religion, so theres not a huge point in me saying it  

So I digress...

Its also totally possible that it happens because well, social justice is occassionally trendy in the recent past, and a lot of people hop onto that bandwagon half-heartedly, so yes they hear about things like institutional racism, the patriarchy ( ) and cultural appropriation, but they only become so invested that they can apply it to their own lives. I don't think its that they don't care, but that the average person's scope on these things can be quite limited.

I don't necessarily think the 2nd part I bolded matters "that" much, since the people who are claiming "stop appropriating us" tend to be educated enough to know that it exists its not a far stretch to claim they know their own history, otherwise why would they speak about a topic they don't really know anything about. Maybe im just speaking of my own experiences though. I dont really observe any people who aren't educated about their history who are black that cry out "cultural appropriation is wrong!" but its just conjecture . Another thing to note is that regardless of whether you know your history as a black person or any other minority, you still don't benefit from white privilege, and its still possible to have "your" culture appropriated. Culture is not necessarily thrust upon you automatically just by your "race" ( ) or ethnicity, as in you don't have to subscribe to it at all, but people will still see you and judge you as if you do belong to it, especially strangers because of your appearance if you don't pass as another race aesthetically. 

I also think Tu quoque's are important to note... if a hypocritical person points out the hypocrisy of another group and are hypocritical themselves, it does not actually make their point untrue  

 

[Didymus 34,379]

​This is a really interesting point 

The cultural appropriation of religious/spiritual cultures is also a problem, I guess people just don't see it as such because its kind of swept under the rug unfortunately... a lot of spiritual things especially. I don't necessarily think like... Christianity (in America) is really being appropriated on such a wide scale, especially since a lot of religions have the mindset that they WANT other people to assimilate to their culture, even if its in the most basic way or silly way it still spreads the culture. 

I think thats one difference, but obv. that doesnt apply to every religion, so theres not a huge point in me saying it  

So I digress,  

​Thanks, boo

I'm not really saying it's a problem (I don't think cultural appropriation is a problem at all, really), it's just a void in the arguments that I see about it. Imo everyone needs to wake up to the fact that no one owns **** and defending something you didn't even work for (like the country you just happen to be born in) is just a ****ing waste of precious time

I don't mind you digressing, 'cause you're never boring

I hope we can have mindblowing convos in chat soon again, sis

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

​Thanks, boo

I'm not really saying it's a problem (I don't think cultural appropriation is a problem at all, really), it's just a void in the arguments that I see about it. Imo everyone needs to wake up to the fact that no one owns **** and defending something you didn't even work for (like the country you just happen to be born in) is just a ****ing waste of precious time

I don't mind you digressing, 'cause you're never boring

I hope we can have mindblowing convos in chat soon again, sis

​Mess, I edited that post to DEATH  I only submitted it early because my message box thingy froze up and I figured id get to finish what I say before you quoted  

I hope to do the same with you too though, sis  

[Didymus 34,379]

​Mess, I edited that post to DEATH  I only submitted it early because my message box thingy froze up and I figured id get to finish what I say before you quoted  

I hope to do the same with you too though, sis  

​Ooh ****, lemme read/reply to the final one then

[Didymus 34,379]

​I don't necessarily think the 2nd part I bolded matters "that" much, since the people who are claiming "stop appropriating us" tend to be educated enough to know that it exists its not a far stretch to claim they know their own history, otherwise why would they speak about a topic they don't really know anything about. Maybe im just speaking of my own experiences though. I dont really observe any people who aren't educated about their history who are black that cry out "cultural appropriation is wrong!" but its just conjecture . Another thing to note is that regardless of whether you know your history as a black person or any other minority, you still don't benefit from white privilege, and its still possible to have "your" culture appropriated. Culture is not necessarily thrust upon you automatically just by your "race" ( ) or ethnicity, as in you don't have to subscribe to it at all, but people will still see you and judge you as if you do belong to it, especially strangers because of your appearance if you don't pass as another race aesthetically. 

I also think Tu quoque's are important to note... if a hypocritical person points out the hypocrisy of another group and are hypocritical themselves, it does not make their point untrue.

​Hmm, I see. I sort of agree, though I'm not sold on the idea of people quickly categorizing a black person as belonging to a "black culture", because at least in my own country it's very obvious that most citizens regard black people as perfectly integrated in Western culture. Therefore I actually think that it does come as a genuine surprise when white people are accused of appropriation, simply because they're not aware of a clearly delineated "black culture". This in itself of course may be used as proof of successful cultural appropriation, but on the other hand you can't ignore the fact that it does come as a surprise, meaning the specific appropriation is unintentional and consciously unloaded with racist undertones.

So in that light, I think offended black people only have three significant options: (a) blame people, institutes, historical developments,... of the past; (b) paint living white people (or at least celebrities) as conscious appropriators; (c) acknowledging that appropriation may have taken place by people who didn't mean any disrespect, making the accusation irrelevant.

There are problems with each of the options, sure (a: you can go as far back in time as is possible and still find no definitive first cause for your own misfortunes; b: you consciously misrepresent people; c: you contribute to the lack of cultural awareness in general), but I guess I didn't make it a secret what I find the best one. I still fail to see the importance of celebrities trying to borrow possible trends in the light of actual racism, cultural xenophobia, international war politics etc. where the results and consequences of actions based on a lack of cultural awareness are actually damaging.

[Melech 9,900]

Yall get so ANGRY over these topics  heaven FORBID someone told a white a person they can't have their hands all over everything and make stereotypes of it.

​C'mon it's not like black people don't stereotype things. I agree that White privilege exists in some countries. But I also seen Black people in Lederhosen or Black People being anti-semit. 

We all need to learn to respect each others. Borrowing from another culture is imo not bad. Tbh all that White things for White people and Black people for blacks stuff sound a lot a lot like dangerous thought which only will bring divisions.