Israel - Palestine Conflict Discussion Thread 2.0

[Melech 9,900]

38 minutes ago, CrazyMonster said:

And let me add the fact that for spiritual people they care a lot about material thing, the state that should own that ground should be a non religious state.

You have the right to disagree with me though, everyone has his/her own opinion obviously.

Jewish is like an ethnicity like being Arab or European. It doesn't have necessary anything to do with religion. 

[mmm 879]

The video says that the Arabs want the other side dead but all they are is a resistant group fighting for the right to live in a one state weather its israel or palestine and want access to their original lands. Yes Arabs dont recognize Israel right to exist as it is today just like Nelson Mandela did not recognize the right for Europeans to exist. The war happened because of this and the problem was just fresh with no generations of israelis living there like today and so Arabs did not want peace, negotiation or recognition with people who invaded their country! he then says that all arabs have to do is accept them and they will live in peace but thats not logical because you cant invade a country and then divide it and continue what your doing then ask for peace and if they refused, you accuse them of not wanting peace! yes if Arabs dropped their weapons nothing would happen to them but they would be defeated and their land will be gone forever just like what happened to the native Americans.. and yes if israel drops its weapons yes they would be in big trouble because they are in the wrong just like how native indians would attack americans if Americans dropped their weapons at that time. The solution is another subject I dont want to get into at the moment..

[Haroon 49,685]

21 hours ago, lego said:

There is already topic about it and it's been discussed to death.

Where's the thread?  When reporting please provide a link to the thread you're speaking about  

[lego 44,165]

3 minutes ago, Haroon said:

Where's the thread?  When reporting please provide a link to the thread you're speaking about  

sorry

this one was locked

 

there is another one

 

[Haroon 49,685]

@lego Thank you

@Andy McQueen Merged your thread  

[Melech 9,900]

21 hours ago, Fays1 said:

The video says that the Arabs want the other side dead but all they are is a resistant group fighting for the right to live in a one state weather its israel or palestine and want access to their original lands. Yes Arabs dont recognize Israel right to exist as it is today just like Nelson Mandela did not recognize the right for Europeans to exist. The war happened because of this and the problem was just fresh with no generations of israelis living there like today and so Arabs did not want peace, negotiation or recognition with people who invaded their country! he then says that all arabs have to do is accept them and they will live in peace but thats not logical because you cant invade a country and then divide it and continue what your doing then ask for peace and if they refused, you accuse them of not wanting peace! yes if Arabs dropped their weapons nothing would happen to them but they would be defeated and their land will be gone forever just like what happened to the native Americans.. and yes if israel drops its weapons yes they would be in big trouble because they are in the wrong just like how native indians would attack americans if Americans dropped their weapons at that time. The solution is another subject I dont want to get into at the moment..

Funny how you compare it to Native Americans when actually Jews are Native to Israel  

[mmm 879]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

Funny how you compare it to Native Americans when actually Jews are Native to Israel  

The difference is Native Americans were living in America but Jews were not living in Israel.. Jews attacked a country to claim their land and Native Americans resisted others taking their land.. If Native Americans attacked north and south America today, you can compare them to Jews because thats what Jews did! they attacked their native land they do not own anymore that have a whole new ethnic group living there but thats not what Native Americans did.

The only common thing Jews and Native Americans have is they are Natives but its not about who is the Native, its about who lives in these lands today and thats why nobody would support Native Americans attacking North and South America. Being native to a land thousand of years ago does not give you the right to re take it thousand of years later after you left it because people now live in that land! thats why im against Arabs kicking out the Jews from Israel after generations of Jews being born there.

[Melech 9,900]

23 hours ago, Fays1 said:

 

.

56 minutes ago, Fays1 said:

The difference is Native Americans were living in America but Jews were not living in Israel.. Jews attacked a country to claim their land and Native Americans resisted others taking their land.. If Native Americans attacked north and south America today, you can compare them to Jews because thats what Jews did! they attacked their native land they do not own anymore that have a whole new ethnic group living there but thats not what Native Americans did.

The only common thing Jews and Native Americans have is they are Natives but its not about who is the Native, its about who lives in these lands today and thats why nobody would support Native Americans attacking North and South America. Being native to a land thousand of years ago does not give you the right to re take it thousand of years later after you left it because people now live in that land! thats why im against Arabs kicking out the Jews from Israel after generations of Jews being born there.

1. Fact Jews are Native to that region

2. Jews needed a place to go after European and Arab countries kicked Jews out and they had no place to go

In your opinion where should have Jews, who are native to that area, go? Jews are allowed to go their Native country. In a perfect world Jews and Palestinians could live peacefully next to each other. 

[mmm 879]

45 minutes ago, Simon said:

.

1. Fact Jews are Native to that region

2. Jews needed a place to go after European and Arab countries kicked Jews out and they had no place to go

In your opinion where should have Jews, who are native to that area, go? Jews are allowed to go their Native country. In a perfect world Jews and Palestinians could live peacefully next to each other. 

I never said they werent natives.. well if you really want to get into it, they are not the natives! it was the coptic christians of egypt and the canaanites. Arabs kicked jews out after the zionist movement and they could go to israel but not to create a seperate zionist state on the expense of the palestinians.. you could either live with them and if you want your own state you can negotiate it with palestinians as it is currently their land.  I think we already talked about this and made these points to you.

[Melech 9,900]

1 minute ago, Fays1 said:

I never said they werent natives.. well if you really want to get into it, they are not the natives! it was the coptic christians of egypt and the canaanites. Arabs kicked jews out after the zionist movement and they could go to israel but not to create a seperate zionist state on the expense of the palestinians.. you could either live with them and if you want your own state you can negotiate it with palestinians as it is currently their land.  I think we already talked about this and made these points to you.

Arabs only used it to kick Jews out. Progroms against Jews already happened before

 

[mmm 879]

4 minutes ago, Simon said:

Arabs only used it to kick Jews out. Progroms against Jews already happened before

 

Ok

[mmm 879]

11 minutes ago, Simon said:

Arabs only used it to kick Jews out. Progroms against Jews already happened before

 

Dont like my comment cause I wasnt agreeing with you..

[Melech 9,900]

Just now, Fays1 said:

Dont like my comment cause I wasnt agreeing with you..

[Woolfsmck 2,763]

The 'native' Palestinians don't want the Israel government.  If their was a vote, Israel would be disolved because the Arab population in the region are the majority. 

The Jewish state needs to use the military to protect the lives of their people from violent deadly attacks.  The Arabs have resorted to civilian attacks in an attempt to demoralize and drive the Jewish state out. 

Who own's what land.  ????

Arabs say that it is their since they were there before the 'current' Jewish government was put in place. 

The Jews say they are reclaiming their home land that was taken from them by military force.

There doesn't seem to be any comprise by either group and the region will be in perpetual war ... 

[AlphaMonster 1,806]

Are there any good reading about history and today of this conflict ? Please quote me or message me with the links of objective (as much as it can) sources. 

I literally cannot find enough credible, objective sources that do not have biases towards one side to learn more about it.

My idea that I formed from everything I've seen until now enabled me to only get a limited knowledge about this conflict: 
First, during WW1, UK encouraged arabs to revolt against Turkish Ottomans helping UK promising to set up their own country. 
Around the same time, UK's foreign minister also promised Jewish people to set up a jewish state in the area but before WW1, land was populated by 400k muslims, 40k christians, and only 15k jews. 
So initially the land was actually the right of arabs ethically, considering they fought against Turks, and won the land. But promise given to arabs was not official while the promise of foreign minister was documented. 
Until the WWI, the area was under British Mandate. Jews started to migrate to the area which gradually increased to a very fast level with rise of anti-semitism in Europe, and boomed before/with WWII.

After WW2, UN and UK divided the area into two different sections as Palestine and Israel. Now the topic becomes blurry here because I've read many different things, and I do not know what to believe really. 
After this decision made by UK and UN, many arabs who did not want to leave their properties were stuck in the borders of Israel while jews seemed happy with outcome. Arabs thought that they were treated unfairly because they won the land, and were promised. But promise given to jews was official. Not trusting west, arabs attacked jews, and Israel got a decisive victory, expanding its territory to today's limits.

Now here I think, the reason why arabs wanted to declare war is justifiable because they won the land. I think that it was the whole land was arab's right at that point.
BUT they declared war against jews with goal of obtaining control over whole territory, BUT they lost the war, and control of 60% of the land they were promised. 

This is such an ambiguous situation. I morally think it was arab's right initially, and giving the land arabs won with diplomacy to jews was an unfair decision. But on the other hand, jews won the land themselves from arabs in the war which arabs declared. That makes me think that Jews' having the control of the land is right and justifiable. 

Now if we come back closer to today, the period b/w 1964-today: 
I have no idea what is going on in this part. All I know from this part is filled with propaganda of both sides that I cannot even form a cohesive idea with ambiguity like I can about for earlier than this. These ideas written below are totally uncertain. I can only assume while trying to keep my objectivity because as I said, everything I read about conflict after 1964 was biased towards one way or another.

For today, what I know is that Israel continues to expand in rest of Palestine; blocks helps that go to palestine, and oppress arabs. On the other hand, Palestinian political party Hamas' associated military wing fights more with terrorist organization tactics such as suicide bombings rather an actual military. Nothing can fully justify type of oppression Israel applies but they are not solely based on race or religion either which means that Israel has its reason to do these actions for well-being of its own citizens. But apart from this oppression, Israel also does not hesitate to kill civilians in different occasions. A known fact is that Hamas uses human shields to protect its weaponry which Israel does not hesitate the bomb. Again a violent morally wrong decision but also an understandable decision. But there are other instances that both parts show unnecessary violence against each other's civilians, in this case palestinians are more individuals who do this so we see Israel's unnecessary violence against palestinians more on media because who do it are not civilians but army. 
I do not know enough about further expansion of Israel to say anything about it.