Israel - Palestine Conflict Discussion Thread 2.0

[Woolfsmck 2,763]

palestinians suffer everyday from settlers and the IDF, it's systematic

So simply attacking 'any' Israeli anywhere is justified ?

Hamas, their supporters and their strategy make their own problems worse and continue the cycle.  Declaring holy war to draw in everyone religious nut job to help prolongs the problem. 

No air strikes were conducted during the lull in violence by the way so the notion that Israel uses them to cause this is pretty ridiculous.

[lego 44,165]

"There were over 130 Israeli settler attacks on Palestinians during the first week of October"

Timeline -

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/settler-palestinians-october#sthash.hd3yi3ky.dpuf

There was never "lull in violence"  Only that time when you choose to ignore it. 

 

 

"Palestinians will never have a state and will be ruled by Israel — says Israeli minister -

...

Ben-Dahan referred to Palestinians as animals in 2013, according to the Times of Israel:

“To me, they are like animals, they aren’t human.”

Ben Dahan told Maariv that homos-xual Jews were superior [to]gentiles — gay or straight.

“A Jew always has a much higher soul than a gentile, even if he is a homos-xual,” he said."

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/palestinians-israeli-minister#sthash.1s9vpgjy.dpuf

 

"World should recognise Israel's historic claim to land from river to sea, minister says

Speech by new deputy foreign minister Tzipi Hotovely beseeches diplomats to use historical justice arguments advanced by religious figures in making Israel's case abroad

Tzipi Hotovely, Israel's new deputy foreign minister, has cast fresh doubt on the country's commitment a two-state solution with the Palestinians by demanding that the world recognise the Jewish historic claim to biblical lands between the Jordan River to the Mediterranean."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/11624355/World-should-recognise-Israels-historic-claim-to-land-from-river-to-sea-minister-says.html

Who else is using religion to justify more land theft and oppression?  

That's right. 

[lego 44,165]

At a settler sit-in in Jerusalem, they speak in American accents about ‘our land’

                   Sai Englert on October 7, 2015

 

This afternoon I went to the old city of Jerusalem.

It is like a Ghost Town. Very few Palestinians in the streets, many shops are closed, and so are most entries to Al Aqsa. The passages that remain open are heavily policed, only those above 55 and tourists are allowed in. The streets are full of mobile check points. Each street corner is occupied by a crowd of ‘Police Officers’ (basically soldiers with a different uniform). Israeli Settlers (to use that tautology for lack of a better word) are all over the place, across all neighbourhoods, walking in small groups, armed, confident, jubilant. In the street where the two armed settlers were killed, in the Muslim Quarter, a large crowd of their accomplices were holding a sit in: guitars, songs, candles and flags, as well as signs in English and Hebrew calling for ‘revenge’, for ‘retaliation’, for ‘justice’. They laugh and chat, for the most part in perfect north American English accents – or terrible Hebrew -, about ‘their neighbourhood’, ‘their land’, ‘their houses’. The whole area is tense, either very quiet or very loud. It feels ready to explode at any moment. The occupier is present with all its might. They also look ready to stay for a long time. Regular shift changes and police trucks full of water and food keep the soldiers going. Somehow many tourists continue their tours, admiring the beauty of the buildings, as if totally oblivious to the horror around them.

It is now an open question what will happen to Al Aqsa. It has effectively been turned into a restricted area except for tourists, an attraction. Will the state replay the trick it performed in Al Khalil (Hebron) and separate the holy place in two? One for Jews and one for Muslims? It seems like way more than a theoretical possibility.

Across the West Bank and Jerusalem people are getting organised and fighting back. We are nowhere near the third intifada so many are (hopefully) announcing on social media, but a shift seems to be taking place. Yesterday in Ramallah the PLO and the Islamic front released a joint statement calling for the formation of popular committees of self defence. People are fighting the army up and down the WB and East Jerusalem. Palestinians in Haifa and Nazareth have organised demonstrations. Schools in the Bethlehem area went on strike today in response to the army’s murder of a 13 year old boy in Aida Refugee camp. The boy was buried today and clashes are ongoing between the Israeli army and the people. All universities in the OPTs are also on strike for better conditions for the 3rd time in a week today.

The PA continues its role as an outsourced Israeli police force, with Abu Mazen calling on the police force to crush the demonstrations as quickly as possible. The Israeli army is increasing its attacks and over 500 Palestinians have been injured, and 9 ( I believe) killed in the last 72h. Israeli mobs are attacking Palestinians in the streets and shops of Jerusalem. Netanyahu is whipping up his men by extending repressive measures, encouraging police and soldiers to shoot to kill on stone and molotov cocktail throwers, ordering house demolitions for ‘terrorists’ families’ homes (worth noting that we will never know who killed the two armed settlers in Jerusalem given the Israelis just killed a kid and claimed he was responsible before attacking his family and his entire university), and use the opportunity to repress Hamas in the WB, and even striking on Gaza two nights ago.

Zionism is unleashing its military power once more on the Palestinian population, and the West continues to foot the bill and support the colonial project. Demonstrations, actions, and BDS campaigns should pop up across the globe in response to this situation. It won’t free Palestine or stop the current onslaught, but it can continue to increase the pressure on our leaders and their Israeli friends. It can make clear that the world is not only watching, but fighting back, in solidarity with the struggle of the Palestinian people, against colonialism and racial supremacy.

                                        Sai Englert

Sai Englert is a PhD Candidate at SOAS. He researches the relationship between the labour movement and the State in Israel. He lives and works in London.

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/jerusalem-american-accents#sthash.xQjweW42.dpuf

 

[Woolfsmck 2,763]

More Islamic hate toward Israel ^^^^^ from Jihad Jane...

[lego 44,165]

More Islamic hate ^^^^^ from Jihad Jane...

Reported.

You really need to stop with personal insults when you lack of arguments.

You are pointing towards article written by a Jew who is talking about his own experience and where are the lies???

Where is the hate?

The hate is in your heartless comments about these innocent victims. 

 

[TiphEret 1,320]

So simply attacking 'any' Israeli anywhere is justified ?

Hamas, their supporters and their strategy make their own problems worse and continue the cycle.  Declaring holy war to draw in everyone religious nut job to help prolongs the problem. 

No air strikes were conducted during the lull in violence by the way so the notion that Israel uses them to cause this is pretty ridiculous.

Of course not but we could rewrite your post replacing Israeli by Palestinian and it's the same. Have you seen how Israeli police and army have handled the situation? I think they aren't trying to make anything better.

People who turn to Hamas have lived and some are born in an occupied land where they have no right, they can't really use justice or law to help them because there is none for them. It seems crazy for us because we have other possibilities but not going down the road of violence is tough. I remember talking to a guy in a Palestinian refugees camp in bethlehem he is now running an NGO and trying to get internationals to be aware about what is going on, they are trying to get as much support as possible and he thinks it's horrible how the Hamas is taking advantage of the feeling of revenge some have, he said himself he could have go that road when his 13 years old best friend was shot during a demonstration where NO ONE had a weapon and when i say weapon it includes stones.

So there I think IDF and Hamas aren't better than the other, only one is "legal" 

[lego 44,165]

 

Israeli forces shot dead a 13-year-old boy during clashes south of al-Bireh in Ramallah district, medics said. The child, identified as 13-year-old Ahmad Sharaka, was shot in the neck with a live round, medics said. He was rushed to the Palestinian Medical Complex in Ramallah where doctors operated on him, before he succumbed to his wounds. Sharaka's death brings the total number of Palestinians killed to 24 since the beginning of October. He is also the third 13-year-old to be shot dead by Israeli forces in the same time period. Another Palestinian was shot in his leg with a live round during the protest in the al-Balu area of southern Bireh, while another was injured by a rubber-coated steel bullet. Two others reportedly suffered excessive tear gas inhalation at the protest.Israeli bulldozers have reportedly removed large objects in the area, in order to remove cover for Palestinian protesters. An Israeli army spokeswoman had no immediate comment. In clashes across the occupied Palestinian territory, the Palestinian Red Crescent counted at least 55 Palestinians shot and injured with live fire, and 77 injured by rubber-coated steel bullets. 

http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=768178

 

 

[brizoda 4,177]

So simply attacking 'any' Israeli anywhere is justified ?

Hamas, their supporters and their strategy make their own problems worse and continue the cycle.  Declaring holy war to draw in everyone religious nut job to help prolongs the problem. 

No air strikes were conducted during the lull in violence by the way so the notion that Israel uses them to cause this is pretty ridiculous.

there is a lot of rabbis inciting holy war against palestinians

[Woolfsmck 2,763]

 

People who turn to Hamas have lived and some are born in an occupied land where they have no right, they can't really use justice or law to help them because there is none for them. It seems crazy for us because we have other possibilities but not going down the road of violence is tough. I remember talking to a guy in a Palestinian refugees camp in bethlehem he is now running an NGO and trying to get internationals to be aware about what is going on, they are trying to get as much support as possible and he thinks it's horrible how the Hamas is taking advantage of the feeling of revenge some have, he said himself he could have go that road when his 13 years old best friend was shot during a demonstration where NO ONE had a weapon and when i say weapon it includes stones.

So there I think IDF and Hamas aren't better than the other, only one is "legal" 

I don 't see a solution to this without concessions.  Palestininians demands amount to the removal of all Jewish from the area... Israel feels thy are liberating their homeland .   Since it's technically a war, then get on with it.  

Complains about civilian deaths sound like a screeching infant to me.

The other option is to stop the violence and make a life out of what you have left.  Simpatchy runs thin when you commit the exact same crimes you accuse your  enemy of committing.

[TiphEret 1,320]

Israel still holds all the cards

The relative quiet on the ground in recent years, enforced by the Palestinian Authority on Israel’s behalf, led Israelis to believe they can enjoy peace and prosperity without ending the occupation.

 

Thirteen years passed between the First Intifada, which broke out in December 1987, and the start of the second in October 2000. Both intifadas lasted for roughly five years. It has been 15 years since the start of the Second Intifada, and 10 years since it ended.

If history and experience teach us anything, the timeframe is exactly right for the arrival of a new generation of young Palestinians who are willing to confront Israel — like their big brothers did, and before them, their parents. That theory also holds if you look at the profile of those carrying out the stabbing attacks and those taking part in demonstrations in recent days — mostly people under the age of 20.

The events of the past few weeks are not an intifada. Attacks and demonstrations against Israeli symbols and targets, civilian and military alike, have taken place since the 1970s with varying frequency. The intifadas, on the other hand, were characterized by an uprising that saw an almost across-the-board mobilization of the whole of Palestinian society and its institutions (although the Second Intifada quickly became an armed struggle carried out by a relatively small number of militants).

The current situation is different. Even Netanyahu has been forced to admit that the Palestinian Authority is not taking part in the current unrest. Things are centered in East Jerusalem, which is under direct Israeli control, and not in the West Bank. That also demonstrates why Israel will do everything it can to prevent the collapse of the PA, thereby preventing a return to the pre-Oslo situation, something for which a number of demagogues on the Israeli Right are calling. The PA, as Israel’s security contractor, is far more efficient at maintaining the peace than the Shin Bet or IDF ever were. Israel will dispose of it only when it completely stops performing its role.

 

The PLO’s international strategy has collapsed

The PA is an unusual institution. A massive part of its budget — 25 percent, it is said — is dedicated to security. Not securing Palestinians but rather securing Israelis. Palestinian police officers are forbidden from protecting Palestinian villagers against settler attacks. They need to call the Israeli police for that.

Over the past decade the Palestinian Authority took upon itself the role of Israel’s operations contractor of the occupation, with an understanding that quiet in the West Bank would create the requisite conditions for progress in peace talks with Israel. That’s what the Palestinians have always been promised, at least — if the violence stops, we’ll talk and you’ll get your state.

But it’s now clear that the dynamic is the exact opposite. The calm on the ground made Israelis believe that they can enjoy peace and prosperity without ending the occupation. The tragic paradox is that it was the intifadas that led to Israeli concessions (Oslo, the Gaza Disengagement), while the peaceful years resulted in more hardline Israeli positions and the expansion of settlements. In weeks like this one, it is sad to recall the commotion Netanyahu raised with his demands that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a “Jewish state,” and not just as “The State of Israel,” as if Israel needs Abbas to define its identity. Be sure that if Abbas had recognized Israel as a Jewish state, Netanyahu would have invented something new to demand. Anything in order to not reach an agreement.

When the PLO leadership understood that it wasn’t going to get anywhere with Israel, it took a gamble by seeking international pressure — first from the United states and then from Europe. The thing is, Washington will never seriously pressure Israel. If one compares America’s commitment to the Iran deal to its flaccid approach to the Palestinian issue, things come into focus rather quickly. The Iran deal was a matter of American interests for the Obama administration. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict was little more than an irritation.

Dramatic developments in the Arab world, particularly in Syria, are the final nails in the coffin of Palestine’s international strategy. Syria has gone from an Iranian-Turkish-Saudi proxy war to an American-Russian one, with massive consequences for the entire region and beyond — and as if that weren’t enough, the Americans are now worried about the stability of Jordan. Under these conditions, Israel’s strategy of strengthening and maintaining the status quo in the occupied territories suddenly seams reasonable to the United States. Hillary Clinton, who is still considered the Democratic frontrunner, said last week that Israeli-Palestinian conflict will probably have to wait, and it’s clear that no Republican candidate would even ponder putting pressure on Israel to end the occupation. The PLO’s international strategy completely collapsed this year, and Abbas never had a plan B.

 

A one-party conflict

I don’t know how much the Palestinian youngsters protesting in the West Bank and East Jerusalem think or care about broad geo-political considerations. What’s absolutely clear is that over the past couple of years diplomatic developments have evoked nothing but utter despondency in the occupied territories. That is something I’ve heard from every single Palestinian with whom I’ve spoken — an inability to even imagine what theoretic chain of events might one day bring about the end of the occupation. Under these circumstances, some hold to their daily lives in Ramallah or Jenin, which recovered a bit in the past decade, while others are willing to take desperate measures.

Israelis love to talk about “incitement” in the occupied territories. It provides a comforting explanation for the violence that breaks out now and again. Israel’s sense of righteousness is only reinforced by the feeling that Palestinians support violence, and that the Israeli side only wants peace and quiet — a little bit of normalcy, commerce, removing a few checkpoints here and there as signs of goodwill, etc.

But the situation, of course, is entirely different. The Palestinians are always subject to the violence of the occupation, which is daily as it is arbitrary, while Israelis primarily enjoy quiet and prosperity. The “Israeli-Palestinian conflict,” most of the time, exists for one side and one side only.

The Palestinians are prisoners in their own land. They cannot move around freely, they cannot enter and exit their country. Receiving visitors is dependent on the goodwill of the Israeli military regime. The same goes for keeping roads open and building new neighborhoodsand even individual homes. They are entirely dependent on the goodwill of Israel for protection against attacks by Jews, and the Israeli army has never viewed protecting the Palestinian populationas part of its mission in controlling the Palestinian territories. They are judged in Israeli military courts, they can be imprisoned without charge or trial, and on and on. And of course, they have no political rights like voting or political representation.

Politics has always been a substitute for violence in managing relations between various populations, and those who have no right to participate in politics quickly reach the conclusion that they have nothing but violence at their disposal. Even if every last social media post against Israel, the Jews or the Zionists was deleted from the Internet, the violence would still continue. Likewise, even completely dismantling every single organ and network of Hamas would not stop the organization from sprouting right back up, time and again.

We have to remind ourselves over and over and over again: the occupation is the ultimate terrorist infrastructure. One must be especially blind to think that extreme inequality and more than half a century of oppression could bring about any other result. We also needn’t delude ourselves about the reverse: ending the occupation may not bring peace, certainly not in the short term, but continuing it will definitely lead to a civil war, of which we’ve gotten a small taste this week. True, it’s not Syria or Yugoslavia. Not even close. But even Syria and Yugoslavia weren’t Syria and Yugoslavia until they were, either. The situation in Israel — two mixed populations that have zero-sum outlooks, and in which one side has all the power and the rights and the other has only crumbs — is the fundamental problem.

In that context, the most worrying phenomenon this week has been the spontaneous violence by regular citizens on both sides. Part of the reason for that is that both sides are exposed only to the terror wrought by the other. Jews saw the video of Adelle Bennett screaming for help and receiving only ridicule from shopkeepers in East Jerusalem. Arabs saw the mob chasing Fadi Alloun — one of the alleged Jerusalem stabbers — until police executed him in cold blood. Maybe that’s another explanation for the young age of the stabbers: they are the ones who are most exposed to social media, where all of the videos and reports are circulating.

Quiet comes with a price

The bad news is two-fold. Firstly, it is much more difficult to reach political solutions in the absence of central power structures. Secondly, in previous rounds it took four to five years of reciprocal bloodletting — during which Israel paid a heavy price, and the Palestinians several times that — until there formed an Israeli consensus that was willing to consider real concessions (Oslo and the Gaza Disengagement). There is no prospect for a temporary or permanent solution at the moment. There is no public support and there are no politicians to lead us in that direction.

Opposition leader Isaac Herzog this week demanded that the government put the entire occupied territories under siege. Collective punishment that would not bring us a meter closer to any solution, military or diplomatic. Minister Naftali Bennett proposed establishing new West Bank settlements. Former foreign minister Avigdor Liberman called on the public to take revenge on Arabs. Yair Lapid proposed activating a “lawnmower” policy (god only knows what that means), and expressed support for Jewish settlers living in Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem. Netanyahu looks like the most rational and cool-headed among all those who want to dethrone him, but it’s clear that he’s not going to be the one who leads us to a major breakthrough.

And yet, there is no way to justify for the feeling of helplessness and victimhood with which the streets of Israel are lined at the moment. Our current situation is not a “tragedy,” but rather a reality that elected Israel’s political leadership, with the backing of the vast majority of Jewish voters, marched directly into with eyes wide open.

The cards are still in Israel’s hands, and they hold great power. Israel can initiate new peace talks with a few simple gestures. It can even decide with whom: Fatah or a Palestinian unity government. It can rally an international coalition to support it — from the Arab states to Turkey, Russia, the United States and the European Union. Ours is one of the few issues in the world on which all of those states would happily cooperate. It could unilaterally end its military regime in the West Bank. In a nutshell, Israel has a full set of tools at its disposal that, in the medium- to long-term, could fundamentally alter relations between Jews and Arabs in this land. But doing so carries a price: putting an end to settlement building, releasing prisoners, and all of the rest of the steps that not only the political leadership, but also the majority of the Jewish public, rejects out of hand at the moment.

 

A version of this article first appeared in Hebrew on Local Call. Read it here.

http://972mag.com/israel-still-holds-all-the-cards/112510/

 

That article sum it up so well! Palestinian I met told me exactly what I bolded in your post

[TiphEret 1,320]

I don 't see a solution to this without concessions.  Palestininians demands amount to the removal of all Jewish from the area... Israel feels thy are liberating their homeland .   Since it's technically a war, then get on with it.  

Complains about civilian deaths sound like a screeching infant to me.

The other option is to stop the violence and make a life out of what you have left.  Simpatchy runs thin when you commit the exact same crimes you accuse your  enemy of committing.

Concessions? Ok tell me what kind of concessions can citizen who actually lived on an occupied land and need permission to leave their camp, can't leave their country can't simply do **** since they are born, what kind of concessions should they make? Not all Palestinians ask all Jewish to leave, but I think the settlers shouldn't be in Palestinian territories as a start. The only person I met that spoke about a two state solution was a Palestinian but before peace he said that what he wants is justice. 

[Woolfsmck 2,763]

Concessions? Ok tell me what kind of concessions can citizen who actually lived on an occupied land and need permission to leave their camp, can't leave their country can't simply do **** since they are born, what kind of concessions should they make? Not all Palestinians ask all Jewish to leave, but I think the settlers shouldn't be in Palestinian territories as a start. The only person I met that spoke about a two state solution was a Palestinian but before peace he said that what he wants is justice. 

proves the point that there isn't gonna be peace till someone wins the war.  

[TiphEret 1,320]

proves the point that there isn't gonna be peace till someone wins the war.  

But we know in that case who is going to win because the rest of the world is just waiting patiently that the war is over. And maybe in a 100 years we will acknowledge what happened. Maybe.

[Melech 9,900]

Of course not but we could rewrite your post replacing Israeli by Palestinian and it's the same. Have you seen how Israeli police and army have handled the situation? I think they aren't trying to make anything better.

People who turn to Hamas have lived and some are born in an occupied land where they have no right, they can't really use justice or law to help them because there is none for them. It seems crazy for us because we have other possibilities but not going down the road of violence is tough. I remember talking to a guy in a Palestinian refugees camp in bethlehem he is now running an NGO and trying to get internationals to be aware about what is going on, they are trying to get as much support as possible and he thinks it's horrible how the Hamas is taking advantage of the feeling of revenge some have, he said himself he could have go that road when his 13 years old best friend was shot during a demonstration where NO ONE had a weapon and when i say weapon it includes stones.

So there I think IDF and Hamas aren't better than the other, only one is "legal" 

both do questionable things. Though IDF is also there to protect. So I wouldn't put them on the same stage

[Melech 9,900]

But we know in that case who is going to win because the rest of the world is just waiting patiently that the war is over. And maybe in a 100 years we will acknowledge what happened. Maybe.

I doubt. There is even a change in US campuses. (BDS) they are anti-Israel and even worse they are openly anti-Semitic but no one seems to care