Israel - Palestine Conflict Discussion Thread 2.0

[Goosey 3,017]

How sad that we have to live in societies where fear dominates and we must feel the need to own weapons to feel safe against violent attacks. 

Talk to Hamas about it 

[Mister Gaga 23,194]

And legalize d--gs too? 

The problem is much bigger than that. People's minds are ****ed up.

[Princess Die 1,864]

YES. MORE PEOPLE SHOULD CARRY GUNS. THAT'LL SHOW EM.  I actually knew someone who was chronically depressed and decided to take his life with his favorite hunting gun. ****ed his face up real bad. 

[Noah X 5,250]

tired of this mess. Can I just hop in a time machine and go forward 200 years 

[Woolfsmck 2,763]

Basically Israel is gonna launch a massive air and ground attack, Hamas is gonna complain about the the babies that got killed and the war crimes that they committed... Then Israel is gonna annex more land.  

Again and again...

[TiphEret 1,320]

Basically Israel is gonna launch a massive air and ground attack, Hamas is gonna complain about the the babies that got killed and the war crimes that they committed... Then Israel is gonna annex more land.  

Again and again...

Pretty much yes...

[lego 44,165]

When people can't believe their eyes, it's usually ideology

 

Yesterday I published a post about a video that showed Israeli plainclothes undercover soldiers restraining a Palestinian youth at a West Bank demonstration and shooting him in the leg at point blank range. The youth was clutching a small stone, but was otherwise unarmed.

These undercover agents are called ”mistarevim” in Hebrew (meaning disguised as an Arab) and “mustarabeen” in Arabic. According to reports from several sources, including the AFP,  journalists witnessed a group of mistarevim infiltrating a demonstration in the West Bank and then suddenly producing handguns, which they shot directly at the Palestinian protestors.

At one point two of the undercover troops grab one of the Palestinian young men and restrain him, while a third presses the barrel of his handgun to his thigh and pulls the trigger. The ‘pop’ of the weapon is audible. Uniformed soldiers punch and kick the wounded youth and then drag him away.

A still image taken at the scene by Activestills photojournalist Muhannad Saleem shows the youth being carried away on a stretcher by soldiers wearing the latex gloves used by medics. There is a tourniquet tied around his thigh above a bleeding wound, and he is wearing an oxygen mask.

Israeli army medics carry away a young Palestinian stone thrower who was shot in the leg by undercover Israeli troops on the outskirts of Ramallah. A tourniquet can be seen on his leg where he was shot, October 7, 2015. (Muhannad Saleem/Activestills.org)

An astonishing number of people looked at all this evidence and refused to believe what they saw. And they were upset with the messenger, too. Yesterday +972 editor Michael Schaeffer Omer-Man and I were inundated with testy emails and social media messages from people who demanded additional evidence proving the undercover agent had really pulled the trigger and shot the boy.

The multiple witnesses, the videos and the photographs were not enough. Some claimed they did not hear the gun being discharged. Others claimed they saw the Palestinian youth walking after he’d supposedly been shot, which proved that the undercover officer had not really pulled the trigger. On Facebook, there were long threads of comments claiming the video was fabricated, a “Pallywood” production.

But then the army spokesperson responded to our query and confirmed nonchalantly that yes, the shooting had occurred as witnessed and documented. “It was an accurate shot that disabled the central suspect who fought back even after the soldiers attempted to arrest him,” said the spokesperson, in a statement that we appended to the original post. No apology, no attempt to dispute.

The army apparently believes it’s acceptable to restrain an unarmed protestor and “disable” him by shooting him at point blank range in the leg.

These undercover units have existed for years, and so has the practice of having agents — sometimes police, sometimes army — infiltrate demonstrations and violently detain protestors. So, too, has the practice of assaulting, and even shooting, unarmed civilians when they are physically restrained and unable to defend themselves. Former undercover officers have spoken about their experiences in interviews for Israeli documentary films, and Breaking the Silence has documented these practices in interviews with former soldiers.

The tactics of the undercover units are actually well known. But this is the first time we’ve seen such vivid, indisputable video evidence. And now we have the army’s acknowledgement that not only do they know about these practices, but they sanction them.

So now I have Jewish friends asking me nervously what they should think. They want to believe these practices are rare and committed by outliers who act in contravention of accepted procedure. But that is not the case, and that is what I tell them. It’s not easy for them, because most Jews cherish the idea that Israel is somehow better, or that Jews wouldn’t do things like that. Too many American Jews have outsourced their identity to Israel, and now they are not sure what to do with the creeping existential crisis.

The thing is, I’ve never seen anyone question or demand more evidence in cases where the media reported that a Palestinian had carried out a violent attack. None of my Jewish friends or journalist colleagues seem to dispute that Fadi Alloun, the Palestinian youth who was shot by police four days ago after stabbing a Jewish teenager in Jerusalem, actually carried out the stabbing.

I’ve seen plenty of people dispute whether or not Jews actually carried out the “price tag” arson attack on the Dawabshe family, too, despite the Hebrew graffiti at the scene and the security forces’ certitude that the crime was committed by Jewish settlers who lived nearby (although they still haven’t managed to charge anybody with the crime). Meanwhile, the Jewish teenager who attacked Arab citizens in Dimona with a knife has been handed over for psychiatric assessment rather than arrested and charged with attempted murder.

There’s something quite racist in the implicit assumption that when Palestinians commit random acts of political violence they’re motivated by senseless hatred, while a Jew who does the same to an Arab just needs a psychiatrist. The same goes for this unwillingness to believe that an Israeli undercover officer would actually shoot a Palestinian in the leg —  then kick him in the abdomen and head and drag him several meters along a rock strewn road, as though he were an animal carcass or a sack of potatoes — despite all the evidence.

Perhaps the muted expressions of disquiet over these images are a sign that caring people with liberal values are starting to wake up to a fact that should be self evident: you can’t maintain military rule over an unwilling population without engaging in acts of cruel violence.

 

http://972mag.com/when-people-cant-believe-their-eyes-its-usually-ideology/112519/

 

 

[lego 44,165]

IDF kills 6 Gazans, wounds over 130 as violence spreads

At least six Palestinians were killed and more than 130wounded during protests along the border of the Gaza Strip on Friday, as violence and unrest continued to sweep Israel-Palestine.

Widespread demonstrations had been expected following Hamas’ callfor a “day of rage” in response to the killing and wounding of Palestinians by Israeli security forces, as well as ongoing restrictions at Al-Aqsa Mosque.

Hundreds of Gazans gathered near the eastern border with Israel, close to the Shujai’ya neighborhood of Gaza City. The Israeli army began firing at Palestinians with live rounds as the demonstration approached the Israeli-imposed no-go buffer zone along the border fence. According to an Israeli army spokesperson, the fire was in response to Palestinians throwing stones and rolling burning tires towards army positions along the border.

At the same time, a separate demonstration was also taking place near the border fence at Khan Younis, in the southern Gaza Strip. It was also reported that hundreds of Gazans attempted to get through Erez Crossing in the northern Gaza Strip, but were prevented from reaching the checkpoint by the army.

http://972mag.com/idf-kills-6-gazans-wounds-over-130-as-violence-spreads/112522/

 

 

[lego 44,165]

Israeli forces shoot dead two boys, aged 13 and 15, in Gaza

 Israeli forces on Saturday shot and killed two Palestinian boys, aged 13 and 15, at a demonstration in the southern Gaza Strip.The Palestinian Ministry of Health said that Marwan Barbakh, 13, and Khalil Othman, 15, were shot dead during the protest to the east of Khan Younis.Medics initially reported that Barbakh was 12 years old.At least 15 others were injured during the protest, the ministry said, although it did not provide further details.The Palestinian Red Crescent later said that its ambulance crews had treated seven Palestinians shot with live rounds across the Gaza Strip, in addition to 21 who suffered excessive tear gas inhalation.An Israeli army spokeswoman had no immediate comment.The boy's deaths come after seven Palestinians were killed when Israeli snipers opened fire on demonstrations near the Gaza border fence on Friday, also east of Khan Younis.According to the Palestinian Ministry of Health, Israeli forces injured 145 other Palestinians by live fire or rubber-coated steel bullets during the protests.The two boys' deaths brings the total number of Palestinians killed by Israel's army to 20 since fierce clashes swept the occupied Palestinian territory on Oct. 1, with around 1,000 injured with live and rubber-coated steel bullets in the same period.Four Israelis have also been killed, two of whom were settlers.The Israeli army has come under repeated criticism over its violence toward children.Defense for Children-Palestine said in a report last month that Israeli forces and Jewish extremists had killed at least 1,991 children since 2000.Among those, 535 children were killed directly by Israeli attacks during the 2014 offensive on Gaza, nearly 70 percent of whom were under the age of 12.A further 3,306 children were injured during the war, including more than 1,000 who suffered permanent disability, the report said.Following the conflict, the UN said: "There is not a single child who has not been adversely affected by the recent conflict in Gaza, where children suffer from bed-wetting, difficulties in sleeping, nightmares, a loss of appetite, and display more aggressive behavior at school."

http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=768153

 

 

[lego 44,165]

Health Ministry: 16 Killed, 1000 Injured by Israeli Troops Gunfire in October

The ministry explained in a press statement that its report cover the period from October 1st, to the morning of Saturday October 10th. 

Israeli troops shoot and killed a Palestinian youth on Saturday before noon in the al-Misrara area, in Bab al-Amoud in occupied east Jerusalem. 

Earlier on Saturday morning, medical sources reported that two Palestinians died of severe gunshot injuries they suffered at the hands of Israeli soldiers in separate incidents, one in occupied Jerusalem, and one in Deir al-Balah, in Central Gaza. 

The Palestinian Health Ministry report named those killed as: 

In the West Bank: 

1- Moahmed Halabi, 19, Ramallah
2- Fadi Aloun, 19, Jerusalem
3- Amjad Al Jindi, 17, Yatta village near Hebron
4- Tha’er Abu Ghazala, 19, of Kufer Aqeb near Jerusalem
5- Abd Al-Rahman Abedallah, 11, Bethlehem
6- Howthifa Suliman, 18, Tulkarem
7- Wissam Jammal, 20, Sho’fat Refugee Camp-Jerusalem
8- Moahmed Al Ja’bari, 19, Hebron
9- Ahmad Salah, 20, Sho’fat Refugee Camp-Jerusalem

In Gaza: 

10- Shadi Hussam Dolah, 20
11- Ahmad Al Hirbawi, 20
12- Abed Al Wahidi, 20
13- Moahmed Al Raqeb,15
14- Adnan Abu E’lian, 22
15- Zyiad Sharaf, 20
16- Jihad Al Abed,22

The Health Ministry noted that those killed in Gaza were all shot when Israeli troops attacked protests organized in Gaza city and Khan Younis in the southern part of the costal enclave on Friday October 9th.

http://www.imemc.org/article/73331

 

 

Just sick. 

[lego 44,165]

 

 

 

 

 

[lego 44,165]

Israel still holds all the cards

The relative quiet on the ground in recent years, enforced by the Palestinian Authority on Israel’s behalf, led Israelis to believe they can enjoy peace and prosperity without ending the occupation.

 

Thirteen years passed between the First Intifada, which broke out in December 1987, and the start of the second in October 2000. Both intifadas lasted for roughly five years. It has been 15 years since the start of the Second Intifada, and 10 years since it ended.

If history and experience teach us anything, the timeframe is exactly right for the arrival of a new generation of young Palestinians who are willing to confront Israel — like their big brothers did, and before them, their parents. That theory also holds if you look at the profile of those carrying out the stabbing attacks and those taking part in demonstrations in recent days — mostly people under the age of 20.

The events of the past few weeks are not an intifada. Attacks and demonstrations against Israeli symbols and targets, civilian and military alike, have taken place since the 1970s with varying frequency. The intifadas, on the other hand, were characterized by an uprising that saw an almost across-the-board mobilization of the whole of Palestinian society and its institutions (although the Second Intifada quickly became an armed struggle carried out by a relatively small number of militants).

The current situation is different. Even Netanyahu has been forced to admit that the Palestinian Authority is not taking part in the current unrest. Things are centered in East Jerusalem, which is under direct Israeli control, and not in the West Bank. That also demonstrates why Israel will do everything it can to prevent the collapse of the PA, thereby preventing a return to the pre-Oslo situation, something for which a number of demagogues on the Israeli Right are calling. The PA, as Israel’s security contractor, is far more efficient at maintaining the peace than the Shin Bet or IDF ever were. Israel will dispose of it only when it completely stops performing its role.

 

The PLO’s international strategy has collapsed

The PA is an unusual institution. A massive part of its budget — 25 percent, it is said — is dedicated to security. Not securing Palestinians but rather securing Israelis. Palestinian police officers are forbidden from protecting Palestinian villagers against settler attacks. They need to call the Israeli police for that.

Over the past decade the Palestinian Authority took upon itself the role of Israel’s operations contractor of the occupation, with an understanding that quiet in the West Bank would create the requisite conditions for progress in peace talks with Israel. That’s what the Palestinians have always been promised, at least — if the violence stops, we’ll talk and you’ll get your state.

But it’s now clear that the dynamic is the exact opposite. The calm on the ground made Israelis believe that they can enjoy peace and prosperity without ending the occupation. The tragic paradox is that it was the intifadas that led to Israeli concessions (Oslo, the Gaza Disengagement), while the peaceful years resulted in more hardline Israeli positions and the expansion of settlements. In weeks like this one, it is sad to recall the commotion Netanyahu raised with his demands that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a “Jewish state,” and not just as “The State of Israel,” as if Israel needs Abbas to define its identity. Be sure that if Abbas had recognized Israel as a Jewish state, Netanyahu would have invented something new to demand. Anything in order to not reach an agreement.

When the PLO leadership understood that it wasn’t going to get anywhere with Israel, it took a gamble by seeking international pressure — first from the United states and then from Europe. The thing is, Washington will never seriously pressure Israel. If one compares America’s commitment to the Iran deal to its flaccid approach to the Palestinian issue, things come into focus rather quickly. The Iran deal was a matter of American interests for the Obama administration. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict was little more than an irritation.

Dramatic developments in the Arab world, particularly in Syria, are the final nails in the coffin of Palestine’s international strategy. Syria has gone from an Iranian-Turkish-Saudi proxy war to an American-Russian one, with massive consequences for the entire region and beyond — and as if that weren’t enough, the Americans are now worried about the stability of Jordan. Under these conditions, Israel’s strategy of strengthening and maintaining the status quo in the occupied territories suddenly seams reasonable to the United States. Hillary Clinton, who is still considered the Democratic frontrunner, said last week that Israeli-Palestinian conflict will probably have to wait, and it’s clear that no Republican candidate would even ponder putting pressure on Israel to end the occupation. The PLO’s international strategy completely collapsed this year, and Abbas never had a plan B.

 

A one-party conflict

I don’t know how much the Palestinian youngsters protesting in the West Bank and East Jerusalem think or care about broad geo-political considerations. What’s absolutely clear is that over the past couple of years diplomatic developments have evoked nothing but utter despondency in the occupied territories. That is something I’ve heard from every single Palestinian with whom I’ve spoken — an inability to even imagine what theoretic chain of events might one day bring about the end of the occupation. Under these circumstances, some hold to their daily lives in Ramallah or Jenin, which recovered a bit in the past decade, while others are willing to take desperate measures.

Israelis love to talk about “incitement” in the occupied territories. It provides a comforting explanation for the violence that breaks out now and again. Israel’s sense of righteousness is only reinforced by the feeling that Palestinians support violence, and that the Israeli side only wants peace and quiet — a little bit of normalcy, commerce, removing a few checkpoints here and there as signs of goodwill, etc.

But the situation, of course, is entirely different. The Palestinians are always subject to the violence of the occupation, which is daily as it is arbitrary, while Israelis primarily enjoy quiet and prosperity. The “Israeli-Palestinian conflict,” most of the time, exists for one side and one side only.

The Palestinians are prisoners in their own land. They cannot move around freely, they cannot enter and exit their country. Receiving visitors is dependent on the goodwill of the Israeli military regime. The same goes for keeping roads open and building new neighborhoodsand even individual homes. They are entirely dependent on the goodwill of Israel for protection against attacks by Jews, and the Israeli army has never viewed protecting the Palestinian populationas part of its mission in controlling the Palestinian territories. They are judged in Israeli military courts, they can be imprisoned without charge or trial, and on and on. And of course, they have no political rights like voting or political representation.

Politics has always been a substitute for violence in managing relations between various populations, and those who have no right to participate in politics quickly reach the conclusion that they have nothing but violence at their disposal. Even if every last social media post against Israel, the Jews or the Zionists was deleted from the Internet, the violence would still continue. Likewise, even completely dismantling every single organ and network of Hamas would not stop the organization from sprouting right back up, time and again.

We have to remind ourselves over and over and over again: the occupation is the ultimate terrorist infrastructure. One must be especially blind to think that extreme inequality and more than half a century of oppression could bring about any other result. We also needn’t delude ourselves about the reverse: ending the occupation may not bring peace, certainly not in the short term, but continuing it will definitely lead to a civil war, of which we’ve gotten a small taste this week. True, it’s not Syria or Yugoslavia. Not even close. But even Syria and Yugoslavia weren’t Syria and Yugoslavia until they were, either. The situation in Israel — two mixed populations that have zero-sum outlooks, and in which one side has all the power and the rights and the other has only crumbs — is the fundamental problem.

In that context, the most worrying phenomenon this week has been the spontaneous violence by regular citizens on both sides. Part of the reason for that is that both sides are exposed only to the terror wrought by the other. Jews saw the video of Adelle Bennett screaming for help and receiving only ridicule from shopkeepers in East Jerusalem. Arabs saw the mob chasing Fadi Alloun — one of the alleged Jerusalem stabbers — until police executed him in cold blood. Maybe that’s another explanation for the young age of the stabbers: they are the ones who are most exposed to social media, where all of the videos and reports are circulating.

Quiet comes with a price

The bad news is two-fold. Firstly, it is much more difficult to reach political solutions in the absence of central power structures. Secondly, in previous rounds it took four to five years of reciprocal bloodletting — during which Israel paid a heavy price, and the Palestinians several times that — until there formed an Israeli consensus that was willing to consider real concessions (Oslo and the Gaza Disengagement). There is no prospect for a temporary or permanent solution at the moment. There is no public support and there are no politicians to lead us in that direction.

Opposition leader Isaac Herzog this week demanded that the government put the entire occupied territories under siege. Collective punishment that would not bring us a meter closer to any solution, military or diplomatic. Minister Naftali Bennett proposed establishing new West Bank settlements. Former foreign minister Avigdor Liberman called on the public to take revenge on Arabs. Yair Lapid proposed activating a “lawnmower” policy (god only knows what that means), and expressed support for Jewish settlers living in Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem. Netanyahu looks like the most rational and cool-headed among all those who want to dethrone him, but it’s clear that he’s not going to be the one who leads us to a major breakthrough.

And yet, there is no way to justify for the feeling of helplessness and victimhood with which the streets of Israel are lined at the moment. Our current situation is not a “tragedy,” but rather a reality that elected Israel’s political leadership, with the backing of the vast majority of Jewish voters, marched directly into with eyes wide open.

The cards are still in Israel’s hands, and they hold great power. Israel can initiate new peace talks with a few simple gestures. It can even decide with whom: Fatah or a Palestinian unity government. It can rally an international coalition to support it — from the Arab states to Turkey, Russia, the United States and the European Union. Ours is one of the few issues in the world on which all of those states would happily cooperate. It could unilaterally end its military regime in the West Bank. In a nutshell, Israel has a full set of tools at its disposal that, in the medium- to long-term, could fundamentally alter relations between Jews and Arabs in this land. But doing so carries a price: putting an end to settlement building, releasing prisoners, and all of the rest of the steps that not only the political leadership, but also the majority of the Jewish public, rejects out of hand at the moment.

 

A version of this article first appeared in Hebrew on Local Call. Read it here.

http://972mag.com/israel-still-holds-all-the-cards/112510/

 

[Woolfsmck 2,763]

http://news.yahoo.com/gaza-official-says-israeli-airstrike-kills-mother-child-063049906.html

Gaza official says Israeli airstrike kills mother and child

 

I called it...

Attack and murder any Israeli they find, then complain about how they are victims.

 

[lego 44,165]

http://news.yahoo.com/gaza-official-says-israeli-airstrike-kills-mother-child-063049906.html

Gaza official says Israeli airstrike kills mother and child

 

I called it...

Attack and murder any Israeli they find, then complain about how they are victims.

 

Just stop it.

Where were you when Dawabsha family was burned alive? When teenagers were executed on checkpoints? It's so dumb to think that the attacks from Palestinian side started first or that they started out of pure hate.

You start to read newspapers on Monday and then think aha, these guys are just evil. Typical.

If you think that airstrikes can solve anything you're not any more intelligent than Netanyahu.

End the occupation, remove the settlements and sit at the table. Israel has upper hand here. It's backed up by most powerful army.

It's easy for colonizers to see themselves always as victims. 

 

[brizoda 4,177]

http://news.yahoo.com/gaza-official-says-israeli-airstrike-kills-mother-child-063049906.html

Gaza official says Israeli airstrike kills mother and child

 

I called it...

Attack and murder any Israeli they find, then complain about how they are victims.

 

palestinians suffer everyday from settlers and the IDF, it's systematic