Scotland rejects independence from Britain in a close vote

[paul 687]

I'm Scottish, and I understand that the Scottish people CHOSE not to go independent. I don't see the issue - you can't force people to do what they don't want to do.

people chose it because they thought the politicians promising us further powers were telling the truth. not even 24 hours after the poll, they destroyed that promise. so yeah, I hope you're bloody glad you voted no.

[craig 680]

According to polls, 1/4 Americans want their state to secede.

 http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/09/20/one_in_four_americans_support_idea_of_splitting_from_the_union.html

 

Anti-Washington (aka anti-Westminster) feelings are common, and no doubt if they had a referendum with an Alex Salmond type stoking the flames and making wild promises, you could get a close referendum vote.

[StrawberryBlond 15,564]

Now Salmond has made a statement saying that the Scottish public was tricked into voting no due to the last minute promises made by Cameron et al for more Scottish powers if we stayed within the union. And he's also saying that there's other ways to gain independence apart from a referendum, like getting your parliament enough powers to the point where independence naturally follows. I am officially DONE with this man. He's an evil, bigoted, self-centered xenophobe who doesn't care about Scotland or its people, he only cares about himself. He's just insulted 55% of the country by suggesting they were so gulliable that it took just one promise from England to sway us to no. He truly believes the No campaign wasn't already massive months beforehand. He's shown his true colours and basically said that the public's verdict means absolutely nothing to him. The same man who just a matter of days ago said that he'd respect whatever the final result was and that he supported democracy. Now he wants to throw all that out the window in the hopes of forcing independence on us. Thank goodness he resigned and took these frankly, dictator-esque views with him. I'm sure even the Yes voters would want independence to be a public demand, not something foisted on us. This complaining of England not keeping their promises 3 days after the referendum result just shows what an incompetant leader he'd have been. After barely leaving time for the ink to dry on that vow (yes, a vow, which means it must be carried out, as confirmed by Downing Street today), he's already accusing England of not upholding its promises. As a politician, he should know these new laws will take ages to work out and nothing was going to be immediate. He just wants to stir the pot and cause more unrest. There would be nationwide riots if Scotland was made independent without a democratic vote, especially after the majority of us don't want it. Salmond should be charged for inciting fear and encouraging hate among the public like that. To think he could've been our PM. The Yes voters don't realise it now, but we dodged a massive bullet.

 

people chose it because they thought the politicians promising us further powers were telling the truth. not even 24 hours after the poll, they destroyed that promise. so yeah, I hope you're bloody glad you voted no.

 

I am actually offended that you think No voters are that stupid and easily swayed. I was a No voter long before that promise happened, as were many others. The No campaign had gained thousands of followers all before that promise. The Yes camp just think because we were quiet and kept our views to ourselves that we didn't exist. I know people who voted No in the 1979 referendum who voted No at this one. Talk to any No voter and you won't find any who said it was the promise of further powers that convinced them to vote No. It was because they didn't think Salmond's plans were credible (or that he even had a plan), that serious questions hadn't been answered (especially about currency), that the evidence showed that Scotland could not prosper on its own and the whole independence idea was doomed for failure. And again, these new powers can't be decided in 5 minutes - they take months to work out so they can be effective. Did you really believe that they'd be put into place the very next day? If official independence would have taken 18 months to be made official, what makes you think massive new powers for Scotland are going to come any sooner? You clearly have no idea how politics works.

 

Yes voters are doing everything they can to make it seem like they've been hard done by and that that the No voters were uninformed and misguided just to make themselves feel better about losing. It seems unthinkable to them that No voters actually know they own minds, have done their research and are not all in the elderly demographic.

[Goosey 3,017]

seriously? u think a Scottish government would be 100% for Scottish people??? newsflash lmao all politicians lie

 

Are you aware Scotland has much less powers than a Canadian province? Which in turn has much less powers than an American state?

 

It's not even a proper country right now. Really a huge shame anyone voted no.

[Miker 5,683]

There is always thought that a country or part of it can do better on it's own. Yet when there is financial difficulty, bailouts are handed out to protect those in need. It is much more difficult to separate without enduring a real hardship. Scotland has made the right decision but the statement they have made should make the rest of the UK mindful to treat them better in the future.

[craig 680]

Are you aware Scotland has much less powers than a Canadian province? Which in turn has much less powers than an American state?

 

Provinces have more power in some areas, US states in others, but overall I think our provinces have more power.

[Better Day 5,766]

The fact yous are trusting the tories :laughga:

[paul 687]

Now Salmond has made a statement saying that the Scottish public was tricked into voting no due to the last minute promises made by Cameron et al for more Scottish powers if we stayed within the union. And he's also saying that there's other ways to gain independence apart from a referendum, like getting your parliament enough powers to the point where independence naturally follows. I am officially DONE with this man. He's an evil, bigoted, self-centered xenophobe who doesn't care about Scotland or its people, he only cares about himself. He's just insulted 55% of the country by suggesting they were so gulliable that it took just one promise from England to sway us to no. He truly believes the No campaign wasn't already massive months beforehand. He's shown his true colours and basically said that the public's verdict means absolutely nothing to him. The same man who just a matter of days ago said that he'd respect whatever the final result was and that he supported democracy. Now he wants to throw all that out the window in the hopes of forcing independence on us. Thank goodness he resigned and took these frankly, dictator-esque views with him. I'm sure even the Yes voters would want independence to be a public demand, not something foisted on us. This complaining of England not keeping their promises 3 days after the referendum result just shows what an incompetant leader he'd have been. After barely leaving time for the ink to dry on that vow (yes, a vow, which means it must be carried out, as confirmed by Downing Street today), he's already accusing England of not upholding its promises. As a politician, he should know these new laws will take ages to work out and nothing was going to be immediate. He just wants to stir the pot and cause more unrest. There would be nationwide riots if Scotland was made independent without a democratic vote, especially after the majority of us don't want it. Salmond should be charged for inciting fear and encouraging hate among the public like that. To think he could've been our PM. The Yes voters don't realise it now, but we dodged a massive bullet.

 

 

I am actually offended that you think No voters are that stupid and easily swayed. I was a No voter long before that promise happened, as were many others. The No campaign had gained thousands of followers all before that promise. The Yes camp just think because we were quiet and kept our views to ourselves that we didn't exist. I know people who voted No in the 1979 referendum who voted No at this one. Talk to any No voter and you won't find any who said it was the promise of further powers that convinced them to vote No. It was because they didn't think Salmond's plans were credible (or that he even had a plan), that serious questions hadn't been answered (especially about currency), that the evidence showed that Scotland could not prosper on its own and the whole independence idea was doomed for failure. And again, these new powers can't be decided in 5 minutes - they take months to work out so they can be effective. Did you really believe that they'd be put into place the very next day? If official independence would have taken 18 months to be made official, what makes you think massive new powers for Scotland are going to come any sooner? You clearly have no idea how politics works.

 

Yes voters are doing everything they can to make it seem like they've been hard done by and that that the No voters were uninformed and misguided just to make themselves feel better about losing. It seems unthinkable to them that No voters actually know they own minds, have done their research and are not all in the elderly demographic.

 

But it actually WAS what swayed a lot of people, the promise of new powers? It was something that was PROMISED by your precious No campaign, and less than 24 hours later, it was destroyed. We don’t need Salmond to point it out, we can see for ourselves that many people were gullible, insult taken or otherwise, it’s a fact - many people believed the promise, they voted for that reason, now they have been sorely disappointed. I’m sorry, there’s just no way you can dispute that. They. broke. their. promise. Whether you hate Salmond or not.

 

“Forcing†independence - you still don’t actually realise that independence is the best thing for this country. I would’ve thought this demonstration by Westminster of a complete lack of care for Scotland made it evident we need to get out of their lying, cheating grip… but no, you’re still hanging onto hatred for a single politician. I think you forget that independence doesn’t necessarily mean having Alex Salmond in charge.

 

You can say all you want about how he changed his decision, but he did so appropriately. Many people, both Yes and No are extremely offended by their attempt to dick us about. He has more than enough reason to change his stance; they’re being twats to us, and you do not even see it. He did not LIE to the public to cheat them into voting in his favour. At least the Yes campaign was built on people power and not lies & money.

 

No, it’s not that “nothing is immediateâ€, it’s that it’s not going to happen. Too many are already saying they won’t support these new laws, people who said they would. Funnily enough, the time they change their mind is AFTER we’ve voted to stay in their control.

 

The No campaign was built on lies from the beginning, as I’ve said OVER and OVER in this thread. They’ve literally been trying to scare us with “facts†from “experts†and stupid stories of how we’ll need a passport to cross the border………. it’s ridiculous and I can’t believe anyone would stand for it. If it’s an insult that I think you’re stupid for believing it, then yes, take it as an insult. That’s how it is, you’re being lied to.

 

We were hard done by. Our dream was stolen by lies, money and greed. I see many No voters feeling deflated and some have actually approached me apologising for voting No - they know that they’ve ruined everything.

 

Your "evidence" that independence would not work out is again heavily debatable and has been shown to be wrong. Sorry, that's how it is. I'm not going to repeat that over and over again.

 

Are you happy about the fact you might not be able to afford sending your children to university? Or about the fact nurses may have to turn away patients who can’t afford healthcare? What about the fact there’s hundreds of thousands on our streets living on next to nothing, while money is heavily invested in a nuclear weapon we didn’t want?

 

Tell me again how it’s a massive deal banks and businesses will move HQ to England after you read that, and then I will actually be fighting a lost cause.

[craig 680]

The fact yous are trusting the tories

Tories are solid on giving Scotland more powers, they just want England MPs to have control over English-only affairs too.

 

We were hard done by. Our dream was stolen by lies, money and greed.

 

 

Shades of Jacques Parizeau's "money and the ethnic vote" after losing the 1995 referendum.

 

A recall greed on the other side too - how Scotland would get to have the oil all for itself. And plenty of lies about how it would all be rosy after independence, and EU membership and the pound would just go on, and anything negative was just "project fear" (never mind that plenty was coming from experts and journos outside the UK or businesses speaking their mind).

[paul 687]

Tories are solid on giving Scotland more powers, they just want England MPs to have control over English-only affairs too.

Shades of Jacques Parizeau's "money and the ethnic vote" after losing the 1995 referendum.

A recall greed on the other side too - how Scotland would get to have the oil all for itself. And plenty of lies about how it would all be rosy after independence, and EU membership and the pound would just go on, and anything negative was just "project fear" (never mind that plenty was coming from experts and journos outside the UK or businesses speaking their mind).

It's not greed, it belongs to Scotland. In fact, it's actually greedy for England or anyone else to think otherwise. Wanting a piece of the hot pie.

We had confirmation that we would in fact still have the pound, really don't know how else that can be explained - it was confirmed, by someone on the English side of things, not someone pro Yes.

EU membership you're right, but that's on a list of problems that mean only temporary dilemmas - the outcome overall for Scotland would've been so much better in the long run.

Also don't pretend the Tories give a damn about meeting Scotland's demands, it's a topic that's already sliding to the back of their minds

[hughdancy 282]

Now Salmond has made a statement saying that the Scottish public was tricked into voting no due to the last minute promises made by Cameron et al for more Scottish powers if we stayed within the union. And he's also saying that there's other ways to gain independence apart from a referendum, like getting your parliament enough powers to the point where independence naturally follows. I am officially DONE with this man. He's an evil, bigoted, self-centered xenophobe who doesn't care about Scotland or its people, he only cares about himself. He's just insulted 55% of the country by suggesting they were so gulliable that it took just one promise from England to sway us to no. He truly believes the No campaign wasn't already massive months beforehand. He's shown his true colours and basically said that the public's verdict means absolutely nothing to him. The same man who just a matter of days ago said that he'd respect whatever the final result was and that he supported democracy. Now he wants to throw all that out the window in the hopes of forcing independence on us. Thank goodness he resigned and took these frankly, dictator-esque views with him. I'm sure even the Yes voters would want independence to be a public demand, not something foisted on us. This complaining of England not keeping their promises 3 days after the referendum result just shows what an incompetant leader he'd have been. After barely leaving time for the ink to dry on that vow (yes, a vow, which means it must be carried out, as confirmed by Downing Street today), he's already accusing England of not upholding its promises. As a politician, he should know these new laws will take ages to work out and nothing was going to be immediate. He just wants to stir the pot and cause more unrest. There would be nationwide riots if Scotland was made independent without a democratic vote, especially after the majority of us don't want it. Salmond should be charged for inciting fear and encouraging hate among the public like that. To think he could've been our PM. The Yes voters don't realise it now, but we dodged a massive bullet.

 

 

I am actually offended that you think No voters are that stupid and easily swayed. I was a No voter long before that promise happened, as were many others. The No campaign had gained thousands of followers all before that promise. The Yes camp just think because we were quiet and kept our views to ourselves that we didn't exist. I know people who voted No in the 1979 referendum who voted No at this one. Talk to any No voter and you won't find any who said it was the promise of further powers that convinced them to vote No. It was because they didn't think Salmond's plans were credible (or that he even had a plan), that serious questions hadn't been answered (especially about currency), that the evidence showed that Scotland could not prosper on its own and the whole independence idea was doomed for failure. And again, these new powers can't be decided in 5 minutes - they take months to work out so they can be effective. Did you really believe that they'd be put into place the very next day? If official independence would have taken 18 months to be made official, what makes you think massive new powers for Scotland are going to come any sooner? You clearly have no idea how politics works.

 

Yes voters are doing everything they can to make it seem like they've been hard done by and that that the No voters were uninformed and misguided just to make themselves feel better about losing. It seems unthinkable to them that No voters actually know they own minds, have done their research and are not all in the elderly demographic.

100% agree. He's only out for his own agenda, and all he's doing is fuelling fires that are tearing the Scottish population into two.

[FKAJAKE 5]

100% agree. He's only out for his own agenda, and all he's doing is fuelling fires that are tearing the Scottish population into two.

 

thissss, all the yes voters are incredibly insulting to all the no voters, if I lived in Scotland i'd probably feel too threatened to voice my opinion.

[Better Day 5,766]

It's starting No voters, David Cameron is punishing us! We had one chance

[Shadow 6,697]

From an observing point of view, it was interesting to see where this would go. It reminded me of the referendum of East Timor of 1999 and struggles that new country went through when the UN, the World Bank, and the Asian Development Bank tried to implement an economic situation in the country that made it very hard for the developing nation to get on its feet. Being independent may bring freedom, but also carries responsibility for a multitude of people. Here is a decent article reviewing its development after 15 years from that vote: http://www.smh.com.au/world/east-timor-yearns-for-real-independence-15-years-after-the-un-referendum-20140829-zt9to.html

Though the Scottish people made their voice known with the Yes campaign, I can understand the frustrations of those behind the No campaign. This incident highlighted separatist movements across Europe and Canada and what could potentially come from those efforts. However, could a country in the Western world really vote for independence? How easy would it be for federal government agencies to tweak the voting in their favor as the cases alleged in previous US elections with miscalculations in ballot counting or ballot machine manipulation? Hopefully, the majority of Scots had their voices heard as fairly as possible.

However, I did see a number of articles a--lyzing this event that mentioned this was a symptom of a global sentiment against elite establishments. How did Scottish feel about these implications? Was this part of the motivation behind the No campaign? And would the Yes campaign say they are comfortable with the elite establishment in the UK, not minding to be subject to policies backed by them? http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/19/upshot/scotland-independence-vote.html?_r=0

Rupert Murdoch was quoted in calling it part of the global "anti-establishment groundswell" that has been growing in recent years. How many people here would say they agree with this? http://www.foxbusiness.com/economy-policy/2014/09/18/rupert-murdoch-on-global-implications-behind-scotlands-independence-vote/

I tend to see both conservatives and liberals divided with their own party when it comes to rejecting or supporting the establishment. Those who support the establishment, tend to look down on those who oppose it, calling them idiots and such for expressing frustrations in the form of class warfare. Then I see those on the other side if this argument, see those who support the elites as sheep and docile subjects to the status quo. Why are people even within the same social class seem divided in this issue?

I hope this doesn't come across as off topic as I'm trying to take facts from this incident and try to piece together a bigger picture. I'm sure the instant communication of the internet and mobile devices, a factor of recent times, had a major part in the development of these issues.

[MonsterOfSpain 8,331]

I think the result was better for the Scottish people, but I would love to see what could have happened if the independence won.