Israel - Palestine Conflict Discussion Thread

[YCHofficial 5,293]

If Hamas will stop his attack, Israel will stop too.

 

i'd bomb the sh!t out of israel

 

but thats just me

[Jjang 2,262]

i'd bomb the sh!t out of israel

 

but thats just me

*If you're not going to have an actual discussion/argument then don't even bother coming here.

[Shadow 6,697]

right, and israel has a right to defend itself as much as palestine a right to resist the kind of occupation that was imposed on them. the creation of israel was not a peaceful idea for the record.

and do you think the creation of israel has lessened anti-semitism? now they have the arab world on their backs! now they have new generations of people, whose parents and friends were killed by israeli defence forces, who are going to in droves grow up with hatred that never would've been there in the first place. in the news, people are seeing children dying because this "jewish state" is "protecting" itself. that creates more anti-semitism. not less. is the world now safer for jews? they're getting shot at with rockets now. some help israel has done for the cause for anti-semitism.

i just don't believe in this notion at all. the jewish people did have a place they could call home - wherever they were born. like all other human beings. we have a right to live where we are born. antisemitism is an awful thing, as are all forms of prejudice, but a "jewish state" is not the solution. it is a racist idea. there can be no such thing as states for certain kinds of people in a fair world because it creates new prejudice and creates the foundations for death and destruction and disaster. and that is what has happened.

i say this as someone who was born and lives in a partitioned state, a state created for a certain kind of people. i know the effects of this. i know about the deaths and i've been surrounded by the prejudice and i've felt the explosions first hand and it does not work. it has been the backdrop of my upbringing. if black and white states would not work in south africa, jewish states cannot work in palestine. we need to learn to live together, not section ourselves off, especially not against the will of the people who already live on that land (and then claim further victim status when the idea that was imposed is not accepted - that is another inevitability).

because it is not entirely just whichever way you slice it. i don't believe in partitioning small pieces of land, especially when it consists of an imposition by another. the people should be united in a single state called israel-palestine or palestine-israel. but that's just my view as someone who lives in a partitioned state where the people ought to be united and not continually segregated. partition is a blight.

Ever since the Diaspora, the Jews have always faced animosity around the world with no land to call their own. So that would have not changed much with or without the birth of the present state of Israel.

But the Arabs saw the creation of Israel as Illegal: think about it, do you think it's ok if we took Afghan or Iraqi refugees and decided to make them a country in the US or Europe?....arabs rejected the partition plan at that time and Israel and its allies accepted it unilaterally, which if course will lead to a conflict. Maybe if Israel was left on her own they would value peace and there wouldn't be so much violence today.

Sounds like you've made up your mind about kicking the Jews out... Because people like you and certain Arabs find this state "illegal..."

So helpful with that mentality if the goal is peace for both people... If we are serious about stopping bloodshed, we have to be more accommodating to both ethnic groups. By holding on to extreme absolutes, how does that help either group? By only siding with one or the other group, it comes out to a perception of ethnocentric behavior. Keep your pride, but keep a heart and your reason as well. There is a path where everyone wins if people accept others.

The only way I see peace is for both sides to accept the right to be there, Jews and Palestinians, as human right to live in peace.

Whatever, if the Arabs decided to "carve" out a piece in the US... There is plenty of room and they would be welcomed to come without having to invade or fight... All they have to do is immigrate and they have plenty of land to choose to settle with. And US and Europe has been welcoming millions of Arabs, Persians, and Africans as long as they follow immigration laws and even with exceptions. Sure, there might be some tension between native born and migrants, but as history has shown, that is normal and integration happens within generations. Can you deny that this has slowly happened in the Western nations or countries like Australia or Canada?

I'm willing to bet if two new generations came and went without fighting or indoctrinating children to hate another group, the new generation might even grow up accepting other ethnic groups just as new generations tend to be less racist, discriminatory than their forefathers. Hate isn't a natural human trait, it is a learned behavior.

[garnite 8]

Ever since the Diaspora, the Jews have always faced animosity around the world with no land to call their own. So that would have not changed much with or without the birth of the present state of Israel.

so are you saying the creation of israel was pointless and more trouble than it was ever worth? i completely agree :P

Sounds like you've made up your mind about kicking the Jews out... Because people like you and certain Arabs find this state "illegal..."

So helpful with that mentality if the goal is peace for both people... If we are serious about stopping bloodshed, we have to be more accommodating to both ethnic groups. By holding on to extreme absolutes, how does that help either group? By only siding with one or the other group, it comes out to a perception of ethnocentric behavior. Keep your pride, but keep a heart and your reason as well. There is a path where everyone wins if people accept others.

sorry, but what? kicking the jews out? where did i say that? i made several comments in defence of the irsaeli right to defence and a state for both people to live in harmony. not kicking people out. i certainly did not say that and i do not hold that opinion.

 

The only way I see peace is for both sides to accept the right to be there, Jews and Palestinians, as human right to live in peace.

that's exactly what i said, only without a superficial border segregating the peoples.

[YCHofficial 5,293]

 

If you're not going to have an actual discussion/argument then don't even bother coming here.

 

 

If you don't have something interesting to say don't even bother quoting me

[Jjang 2,262]

If you don't have something interesting to say don't even bother quoting me

 

Oh poor thing, makes an idiotic statement then run away instead of facing the weight of your sayings.

[YCHofficial 5,293]

 

Oh poor thing, makes an idiotic statement then run away instead of facing the weight of your sayings.

 

 

[Shadow 6,697]

If you don't have something interesting to say don't even bother quoting me

He's right, though. Your comments were not helpful.

so are you saying the creation of israel was pointless and more trouble than it was ever worth? i completely agree :P

sorry, but what? kicking the jews out? where did i say that? i made several comments in defence of the irsaeli right to defence and a state for both people to live in harmony. not kicking people out. i certainly did not say that and i do not hold that opinion.

that's exactly what i said, only without a superficial border segregating the peoples.

I was quoting dark wolf too and my comments got mixed...

But we both agree with the solution, then having Israel as a state matters too. All borders are superficial, man made constructs. :P

[garnite 8]

He's right, though. Your comments were not helpful.

I was quoting dark wolf too and my comments got mixed...

But we both agree with the solution, then having Israel as a state matters too. All borders are superficial, man made constructs. :P

no worries then.

i'm not sure it does. again, i say this as someone in a contrived state with a border that i don't think should be there. i don't want either side to be expelled, i just want them to live side by side. a border only prolongs the grievances. if a two state solution in palestine was considered temporary, to bring about a peace process in which the ultimate goal would be a reunification of palestine and israel so that the people can live shoulder to shoulder on that piece of land without borders segregating them, i'd be for it. the fact is it was all considered one territory together until relatively recently. it would be unjust to allow it to be divided in the name of splitting peoples and creating states for specific people on silly grounds such as religion, race or political alliances.

[Dolev 867]

 

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/PA-slams-Hamas-executions-372087

 

 

 

But still, I don't understand your point. why is it understandable for Israeli - Jews to hate Israeli - Arabs?

 

 

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=448

 

As I said before, its the hostility between the two sides that makes it easy to understand why hate exist. It is understandable in both ways. Politcal correctness belongs to the garbage.  :roll:

The cause of resistance is land stealing, opression, blockade, siege and ethnic cleansing. The cause of death of civilians are your destruction forces.

I might upload the documents if I have enough time, wonder what exactly is propaganda there, since they show both sides and give enough screen time for both.

Yes, they are banned.

Israel Bans International Human Rights Workers from Gaza

Since beginning its assault on the Gaza Strip on July 8th, Israeli officials have prevented human rights observers and experts employed by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch from entering Gaza to conduct independent investigations.

http://www.imemc.org/article/68906

Israel bars Amnesty, Human Rights Watch workers from Gaza

Human rights organizations prevented from conducting investigations into Israel-Hamas fighting.

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.611015?v=C71173698D9D0CD11CC6ECAC6F165264

At least they caught the criminals who killed that family while israeli soldiers who kill kids walk free

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

Palestinian, 11, killed by Israeli fire in West Bank

http://news.yahoo.com/palestinian-11-killed-israeli-fire-west-bank-100103142.html

Israel withdraw from Gaza 10 years ago. Goods are entering Gaza daily. Your false accusations about "ethnic cleansing" bordline antisemitis.

 

Why couldn't you quote my full comment?

Two different reasons have been cited for the refusals: The first is that the Erez border crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip is closed and no entry permits are being granted until further notice; the second is neither group is registered with the Social Affairs Ministry as a humanitarian aid organization.

In fact, Erez was open throughout most of Israel’s Operation Protective Edge, which began on July 8. Among others, journalists, United Nations employees and Palestinians needing medical care or returning from abroad (with special permits), were allowed to pass through.

No need to mention Gaza is not a safe place to be these days, Even UNRWA's spokeperson lives in Tel Aviv  . If they want it so much they are free to enter through Egypt.

 

Captain R was sent to Jail. Do your research.

They caught? who are they? its the IDF that arrested those scums who killed a whole family just for the sake of killing Jews.

-We have already talked about the border with Egypt, let's not act as if there were no agreements between Israel and Egypt, not to mention how the current egyptian regime hates hamas. And the money transfer thing is REAL: There is a blockade on Gaza imposed by Israel. You can't deny that, find another arguments.

-Israel violates international law: you remember when they bombed that school even if teh UNRWA officials called them like 20 times and warned there were civilians there? And also,how many past UN resolutions does Israel not care about at all?

-You answered your own question: diplomacy with Israel doesn't seem to have much effect.

- If both Israel & Egypt has a problem with Hamas then it must mean something.  :)

- There is no money-blockade over Gaza as Hamas use the Islamic Bank. No goods are block from entering the strip. find you another argument.

- As reported by The United Nations Rockets Warehouse Agency itself:

"UNRWA CONDEMNS PLACEMENT OF ROCKETS, FOR A SECOND TIME, IN ONE OF ITS SCHOOLS".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im7lVj9AE7M

- "diplomacy with Israel doesn't seem to have much effect":

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20550864

Dolev  How do you feel when you see this image? Answer honestly.. 

 

Pretty bad, it seems horrible to live under the control of Hamas.

[darkwolf 590]

Whatever, if the Arabs decided to "carve" out a piece in the US... There is plenty of room and they would be welcomed to come without having to invade or fight... All they have to do is immigrate and they have plenty of land to choose to settle with. And US and Europe has been welcoming millions of Arabs, Persians, and Africans as long as they follow immigration laws and even with exceptions. Sure, there might be some tension between native born and migrants, but as history has shown, that is normal and integration happens within generations. Can you deny that this has slowly happened in the Western nations or countries like Australia or Canada?

I'm willing to bet if two new generations came and went without fighting or indoctrinating children to hate another group, the new generation might even grow up accepting other ethnic groups just as new generations tend to be less racist, discriminatory than their forefathers. Hate isn't a natural human trait, it is a learned behavior.

 

You didn't get my point. There is a big difference between immigration and integration and establishing a country on a land that is not yours. And in the 40s, arabs view jews as illegal immigrants (which many of them were indeed were), how would you want them to react when the jews wanted half the land? even today, look at how the USA, Spain, Italy....etc are fighting against illegal immigrants.

It isn't really a question of hate or indocrination, it didn't start because one day the arab woke up and decided to hate the jews or Israel, it started when Israel declared itself an independent country and started taking way more land than even what the partition plan stated, leaving millions and millions without a home, without a country and without a future.

[Dolev 867]

The school year in Israel in the heavy bombarded southern part won't start as well.

It's a shame that kids have to live this way while they should live in peace.

Like I said in my previous post, education is one of the most important things.

By the way, talking about education and it's role, this is what they teach in UNRWA schools in Gaza:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3hOrRMARZo

Hope that one day we can be cousins again (Like the cute kid says) without the killing the Jews part. In the end children know what they are being taught. Sadly, most of the young kids didn't even meet an Israeli in their life (Except maybe soldiers) or been to Israel. I remember in the days of Rabin I was in a group of Israeli youth and Palestinian youth who met every week. There was so much hope then. (there was even a cute one called Hamudi, which translates to Cutey in Hebrew). And lets hope there is a real step towards peace soon so Gaza can be rebuilt (without Hamas being rebuilt, cause under their regime they might be free from Israel, which will happen one way or another one day or another, but that will still leave them with a terror organization that doesn't really care for their needs or even lives but only cares for it's on agenda, power and most of all money).

 

By the way, speaking of children, here is a part of the story you are not shown most of the time, children from Gaza treated in Israel. This is the way children should get to know Israel, not through wars or through incitement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFLRgYURoqs

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR5X8sCeSps

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCjvCGStCGU

And one of the most touching stories, the story of adorable Afnan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_1Mv7F9pyc

(Yesterday while transportation came to take children like those above to hospitals in Israel Hamas shot rockets on the crossing and prevented that while hurting the drivers... Sad affair)

Thank you for showing the beautiful face of Israel. 

[Dolev 867]

You didn't get my point. There is a big difference between immigration and integration and establishing a country on a land that is not yours. And in the 40s, arabs view jews as illegal immigrants (which many of them were indeed were), how would you want them to react when the jews wanted half the land? even today, look at how the USA, Spain, Italy....etc are fighting against illegal immigrants.

It isn't really a question of hate or indocrination, it didn't start because one day the arab woke up and decided to hate the jews or Israel, it started when Israel declared itself an independent country and started taking way more land than even what the partition plan stated, leaving millions and millions without a home, without a country and without a future.

The land, previously held by the Ottoman Empire, was served for the British by the LN. Was it theirs? no. It was neither belonged with the "native people", as there was never a state called Palestine and the Arabs lived in the whole Middle East with no actual boundaries between them.

 

When Israel declared itself an independent country its government accept the partition plan and recognized the neighboring-Palestinian state, while the same state decided it would not accept any presence of Jewish people in the region and attacked the new-born state, with the help of 6 more countries. Let's stick to facts, if the arabs were not greedy and were to respect the other side as the Jews did, there were 2 states today living by each other. But they were arrogant enough to do the complete opposite, and their status today is only a result of what they started, their fault.

[garnite 8]

It was neither belonged with the "native people", as there was never a state called Palestine and the Arabs lived in the whole Middle East with no actual boundaries between them.

 

When Israel declared itself an independent country its government accept the partition plan and recognized the neighboring-Palestinian state, while the same state decided it would not accept any presence of Jewish people in the region and attacked the new-born state

so how exactly did they recognise a state that didn't exist? why would they do that? for what reason, in your opinion?

-

reading some tweets that a permanent ceasefire has been reached and border crossings will be opened along with plans for future air and sea ports.

[Dolev 867]

 

so how exactly did they recognise a state that didn't exist? why would they do that? for what reason, in your opinion?

-

reading some tweets that a permanent ceasefire has been reached and border crossings will be opened along with plans for future air and sea ports.

 

When Israel declared itself an independent country its government accept the partition plan and recognized the neighboring-Palestinian state, while the same state decided it would not accept any presence of Jewish people in the region and attacked the new-born state

Keywords: When, Recognized, not accept (partition plan)

The day the plan was shown by the UN was suppouse to be the day the 2 states are created. Already-formed states does not need recognition, new-developing states does. The Palestinians (notice how I wrote Palestinian state - not "Palestine") didn't accept the plan therfore never reached the goal of an entity in a status of a "State".