Israel - Palestine Conflict Discussion Thread

[lucia4 0]

^

 

I'm not sure either but I feel that girl's expression shows my thoughts on the whole situation. Plus she's stunningly beautiful for like 8 years old.

[Noam Zioni 1,201]

^

I'm not sure either but I feel that girl's expression shows my thoughts on the whole situation. Plus she's stunningly beautiful for like 8 years old.

So why did you quote me?

[lego 44,165]

How many Palestinian civilians is a single militant worth?

As of Thursday, 76.8 percent of the 2,090 fatalities documented by the Gazan human rights organization Mizan have been civilians.

On the night of August 5, Gaza’s Interior and National Security Ministry posted a comment on its Facebook page decrying the damage caused by publishing names and photographs of “resistance fighters who fell in battle†(shahids), along with information on where they died.

The Israeli military spokesman seized on this comment as a smoking gun: proof that Hamas was deliberately concealing militant fatalities to boost the apparent numbers of civilians killed.

The Israel Defense Forces cannot refute the images of dead women and children that are broadcast abroad, so instead the army is trying to construct a narrative proving that its targets  and the aftermath of its attacks  are legitimate.

The Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center is a vital partner in constructing this narrative. The center, which is checking the name of each Palestinian said killed in the Gaza fighting (it has gotten to 450 so far), estimates that some 46 percent of them are “terrorist operatives.†This figure may change in accordance with further investigation.

The center’s lists are accompanied by photographs of posters and death notices of some of the militants. Each name is marked “non-involved,†“unidentified†or “terrorist operative.†The source for the information of each person’s “involvement†is not mentioned, apart from operatives whose photograph appears in death notices or public reports of the militant organization to which he belonged.

Hamas’ military wing has released few of the names of its own operatives, though it did announce the deaths of the senior military leaders who had been on Israel’s wanted list for many years: Raed Attar, Mohammed Abu Shamaleh and Mohammed Barhoum, who were assassinated in Gaza this week. If concealing the names of fatalities is really part of Hamas’ propaganda strategy, a way of forging a counter-narrative to that of the IDF, then it contradicts the deep Palestinian and Hamas ethos of pride over those who were killed fighting the Zionist enemy.

“Even if Hamas had decided to hide the names of its fallen combatants and their numbers for a long time, the families wouldn’t agree,†a veteran Hamas activist told Haaretz.

He said ultimately everything will come to light. “Now we don’t know if there are fighters who were killed in the tunnels and are still buried there, or if they’re living in the tunnels. There are bodies that have been under the rubble for so long that they are unrecognizable,†he said.

The IDF and Amit center saw the Palestinian Facebook comment as a warning and an instruction not to release information, for propaganda purposes. But Palestinians saw it as an expression of concern. Releasing the casualties’ names would enable Israel to target their families as well by bombing their homes, thus turning even more civilians into “targets†or “collateral damage.â€

This is not propaganda; it is the reality in which 1.8 million Palestinians have been living in the past six weeks.

“The occupation gathers this information and testimonies and uses them to excuse its crimes against the civilians and destroy the homes,†the Palestinian Facebook post says.

The IDF’s English translation of the post omits the words “against the civilians and destroy the homes.â€

The IDF itself is well versed in hiding information about the exact location of rocket landings for security, not propaganda, reasons. Hamas also has military considerations in not mentioning where its people were killed.

The concern for civilians is justified. The Gazan human rights organization Mizan reported that 952 people have been killed in their bombarded homes, including 307 children and 204 women, including two disabled women who were in a bombarded rehabilitation center.

On Thursday 50 civilians were added to the list, including Hassan Younis, the 80-year-old father of Mizan director Issam Younis and his wife. The 12 “accurate†missiles fired at dawn were aimed at a neighbor’s house in the Tel Sultan neighborhood, home of three Iz al-Din al-Qassam fugitives.

So far B’Tselem has documented 72 direct bombardments that have destroyed buildings and killed their inhabitants. Of the 547 people killed in these strikes, 125 were women under 60, 250 were minors and 29 were men and women aged 60 or older. B’Tselem also gives the name of an operative in Hamas’ military wing who was killed in the bombing.

The IDF does not say why these 72 buildings were bombed with their inhabitants inside, while it took the trouble to warn hundreds of other families a few minutes before bombing their homes.

In any case, targeting 72 buildings directly and striking them with no warning cannot be excused as a mistake. The IDF does not explain what the acceptable rate of collateral damage is, or how many people is it okay to kill in order to assassinate a single militant.

As of Thursday, 76.8 percent of the 2,090 fatalities documented by Mizan have been civilians. The UN team’s preliminary examination showed Wednesday that 71 percent of the fatalities  1,434 out of 1,999  are civilians.

The UN team, Palestinian human rights organizations and B’Tselem are examining every fatality, seeing every body in the hospital, checking every death report and talking to eyewitnesses, family members and survivors.

It's enormous, difficult work – emotionally, and physically. Despite their experience, no one is trained to witness 10, 50, 100 corpses, among them dismembered children, day after day. It's work that often involves risking one's life, done mostly without electricity or enough water.

When making an initial identification even as the shelling continues and bodies pile up that were retrieved only after several days, there are details that field investigators cannot get to. In sizeable Gaza City, it is hard to figure out immediately people's background and their cause of death. In Rafiah, the task is easier.

Because the documenting organizations worked separately, the numbers vary. Mizan and three other NGOs – the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, Al-Haq and Al-Damir Institution for Human Rights – assembled a joint team that works on cross-referencing information, double-checking identities, confirming identities with the population registry and affirming the circumstances of death. Renewed fighting on Tuesday and the constant addition of dead and injured put an end to this joint activity.

When the investigations renew, the teams will continue their work of dividing the data on those killed between fighters and civilians. Staff members for Mizan and the Palestinian Center for Human Rights were careful not to include in their lists people who were executed as Israeli collaborators. So far these casualties, or some of them, were included in the Health Ministry list and not declared publically as killed. Mizan and Palestinian Center investigators understood that whoever was shot in the head at close range in a neighborhood that the IDF came nowhere near to cannot be counted.

On the other hand, as members of that society, they are able to distinguish in the end between those who really were fighters with a long-standing role in one of the militant groups, those who were just waving flags at a rally or funeral, those who were presented as fighters because of family or political circumstances, or those who had just joined a group a month earlier and had yet to learn to fire a gun. Satellite images and collaborator intelligence allows the Shin Bet and the IDF to define them as active terrorists, but investigators from the UN and Palestinian NGOs do not bend their divisions to the very flexible and non-transparent categorizations of the Shin Bet and the IDF.

Dr. Atef Abu Saif, a political science professor at Gaza's Al-Azahar University, researched the impact of drones on life in Gaza. He found that the targets for Israeli missile attacks for years were determined not only by exact intelligence in the field, as the IDF claims, but by suspicious behavior. Examples include riding a motorcycle, associated with armed groups, or hanging out on roofs, associated with lookouts. Anwar Zaanin, a Mizan investigator, was killed in early August by a missile after riding a motorcycle to see if he could fix a water pipe in his home in Beit Hanun.

Some journalists have challenged UN and Palestinian categorizations, asserting that the number of young men killed in Gaza was relatively high compared to their size within the population. The conclusion is that most of the men killed – and they are the right age to be engaged in militant activity – were indeed militants.

This conclusion is faulty in not being aware that public space in Palestinian society in general and in Gaza in particular is appropriated mainly by men. The men go to the mosque early in the morning and the evening; only men go to funerals; men sit outside their homes on hot days and watch World Cup games, and men are the ones who run out to retrieve the wounded and dead immediately after an attack or go to get water during an attack. So, it is natural that the number of men killed would be higher relative to the population, and not only because this is the right age to join in the fighting.

The attempt to undermine the figures provided by independent Palestinian groups who are more familiar than anyone else with the territory, and to present them as false or distorted, is part of this war. The Palestinian organizations are waiting for the moment international inquiry committees start their probe.

That’s why they are determined to be as accurate in their findings as possible. They want to see an end to what they view as a tradition of not punishing Israel for flouting international law.

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.611924?v=54573C793C4DA70CAEEF39B44B92DA85

[lego 44,165]

Families bombed at home, Gaza, July-August 2014 (initial figures)

During the fighting in Gaza, dozens of residences were bombed while residents were at home. The following infographic lists members of families killed in their homes in 72 incidents of bombing or shelling. In these incidents, 547 people were killed, including 125 women under the age of 60, 250 minors, and 29 people over the age of 60.

http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/201407_families

[Noam Zioni 1,201]

1 seriously injured child in a direct hit in a car

Update: he died :(

[lego 44,165]

Israel bombed 161 mosques in Gaza

 

 

 

 

Israel has so far destroyed 161 mosques in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian Awqaf Minister Yousef Dois said yesterday.

He said 41 mosques were completely destroyed and 120 were partially destroyed during the war adding that a number of religious institutions have also been attacked.

Dois continued by saying Israel is taking advantage of the fact that the world's attention is on Gaza and using this to stop Muslim worshippers from gaining access to Al-Aqsa Mosque. He said rabbis are delivering provocative speeches.

"These acts are clear proofs on the continued religious persecution practiced against Muslims and their places of worship," he said.

He called upon the Organisation of the Islamic Cooperation (OIC) to take serious steps to deter Israel for its "crimes and violations", which are increasing daily in the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and Jerusalem.

 

 

...

 

 

 

Israeli settlers have unleashed a large pack of dogs on Palestinian children, brutally injuring one near Salfit in the center of the occupied West Bank.

The dogs harshly savaged the five-year-old boy, who is in dire need of several surgeries, including a facial reconstructive one.

The boy, identified as Karmel Moayyad Shakir, was playing with his peers in the village of Azawiyeh when the illegal settlers from the nearby Kannat settlement arrived at the spot along with a large pack of dogs.

Before the boy’s family could intervene, the dogs attacked the five-year-old who was lucky enough not to die, yet sustained severe injuries.

“We were sitting in the house. My son went out to play with his friends when suddenly I heard the kids screaming and the sound of dogs. I ran out and saw more than 20 dogs attacking my son with the settlers in the background. There was so much blood we rushed him directly to hospital,†said Thikra Ashkira, the kid’s mother.

Karmel’s family said the villagers there were vulnerable to the Israelis’ repeated attacks, with Israeli military forces protecting the attackers.

“The area we live in is the closest to the Israeli settlement. We suffer many such attacks by the settlers and their dogs. We usually try to keep the kids inside, but we can’t do it every time because they have the right to play,†said Moayyad Shakir, Karmel’s father.

Among many other illegal settlements, Kannat is notorious for its extremist Israeli residents.

The presence and continued expansion of Israeli settlements in occupied Palestine has created a major obstacle for the efforts to establish peace in the Middle East.

More than half a million Israelis live in over 120 illegal settlements built since Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and East al-Quds in 1967.

The UN and most countries regard the Israeli settlements as illegal because the territories were captured by Israel in a war in 1967 and are hence subject to the Geneva Conventions, which forbid construction on occupied lands.

 

 

VIDEO

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/08/20/376034/settler-dogs-savage-palestinian-kids/

[EXCXSXE 0]

Hamas executes 18 suspected informants for Israel

 

Gaza gunmen killed 18 alleged spies for Israel on Friday, including seven who were lined up behind a mosque and shot after midday prayers, in response to Israel’s deadly airstrikes against top Hamas military commanders.

Hamas media portrayed the killings as the beginning of a new crackdown, under the rallying cry of “choking the necks of the collaborators.†It was the largest number of suspected informers killed by Hamas in a single day since it seized Gaza by force in 2007.

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/hamas-executes-11-alleged-collaborators-after-israel-kills-military-chiefs/article20167947/

[lego 44,165]

Again, Israel killing wife and baby deliberately, hoping there will be hamas members among the victims:

 

Hamas military chief Mohammed Deif's wife, child die in Israeli airstrike on Gaza

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/hamas-military-chief-mohammed-deifs-wife-child-die-in-israeli-airstrike-on-gaza-20140820-1065cz.html#ixzz3B1p44EcG

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

According to Belal Dabour, a Palestinian doctor living in Gaza

 

https://twitter.com/Belalmd12/status/502820915973853186

 

https://twitter.com/Belalmd12/status/502822546484371457

 

https://twitter.com/Belalmd12/status/502824857034174464

 

So the Israeli source is this

 

http://m.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/610/630.html?hp=1&cat=402&loc=3

 

google translate

 

"Israel staged ceasefire"

Michael Ben-Yair, Attorney General and Supreme Court directed the former argues that Israel cease-fire violations by Hamas to be able to kill Mohammed Deif

Michael Ben-Yair, who was a former Attorney General and a judge in the Supreme Court maintains that Israel staged the collapse of the ceasefire to be given her a chance to eliminate Muhammad Deif

 

In 1997-1993, he served as Attorney Ben Yair government under Rabin and after the start of the second term of the first Netanyahu government. In 1990, he served for six years as a judge of the Supreme Court.

The status of Michael Ben Yair

Among the most significant decisions as attorney general who were restrictions on the use of moderate physical pressure by the ISA, declaring the Hchnissteim organizations as terrorist organizations and the formulation of special procedures to enforce the law against Israelis in Judea and Samaria.

Israel tried to destroy the page after the ceasefire collapsed on Wednesday. To those hours still do not know what happened to the commander of the military wing of Hamas. Since the collapse of the ceasefire fired hundreds of rockets at Israel while on the other hand, Israel attacked terrorist targets in the Gaza Strip number and made other senior officials targeted killings of Hamas.

 

----------------------------------

 

Hamas: Israel violated truce after false rocket fire claims

 

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=722109

 

 

 

Hamas spokesman Moussa Abu Marzouq told Ma'an via telephone on Wednesday that Israel "ended the truce and claimed that three rockets hit Israel, which Hamas had no information about."

Abu Marzouq added that "all options" are on the table now, saying that the group was ready for peace but was not afraid of continuing to defend itself if Israel continued to choose war.

"All options are open now: a new truce, keeping the war going, or signing an agreement," he added.

 Are the Rocket Attacks Which Break Israeli Ceasefires False Flags?

 http://www.globalresearch.ca/are-the-rocket-attacks-which-break-israeli-ceasefires-false-flags/5396678?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=are-the-rocket-attacks-which-break-israeli-ceasefires-false-flags

 

 

 

 

 

hmm....

[EXCXSXE 0]

 

 

 

 

 

 

According to Belal Dabour, a Palestinian doctor living in Gaza

 

https://twitter.com/Belalmd12/status/502820915973853186

 

https://twitter.com/Belalmd12/status/502822546484371457

 

https://twitter.com/Belalmd12/status/502824857034174464

 

So the Israeli source is this

 

http://m.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/610/630.html?hp=1&cat=402&loc=3

 

google translate

 

"Israel staged ceasefire"

Michael Ben-Yair, Attorney General and Supreme Court directed the former argues that Israel cease-fire violations by Hamas to be able to kill Mohammed Deif

Michael Ben-Yair, who was a former Attorney General and a judge in the Supreme Court maintains that Israel staged the collapse of the ceasefire to be given her a chance to eliminate Muhammad Deif

 

In 1997-1993, he served as Attorney Ben Yair government under Rabin and after the start of the second term of the first Netanyahu government. In 1990, he served for six years as a judge of the Supreme Court.

The status of Michael Ben Yair

Among the most significant decisions as attorney general who were restrictions on the use of moderate physical pressure by the ISA, declaring the Hchnissteim organizations as terrorist organizations and the formulation of special procedures to enforce the law against Israelis in Judea and Samaria.

Israel tried to destroy the page after the ceasefire collapsed on Wednesday. To those hours still do not know what happened to the commander of the military wing of Hamas. Since the collapse of the ceasefire fired hundreds of rockets at Israel while on the other hand, Israel attacked terrorist targets in the Gaza Strip number and made other senior officials targeted killings of Hamas.

 

----------------------------------

 

Hamas: Israel violated truce after false rocket fire claims

 

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=722109

 

 Are the Rocket Attacks Which Break Israeli Ceasefires False Flags?

 http://www.globalresearch.ca/are-the-rocket-attacks-which-break-israeli-ceasefires-false-flags/5396678?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=are-the-rocket-attacks-which-break-israeli-ceasefires-false-flags

 

 

 

 

 

hmm....

 

None of those links are from a good source...

 

Nor is this but I think it's interesting. 

 

http://me-confidential.com/8456-palestine-qatar-pressured-hamas-to-violate-ceasefire.html

 

A source from the Fatah camp is blaming Qatar for the failure to conclude a long lasting ceasefire agreement between Hamas and Israel. The source claimed that Qatar threatened Hamas with the expulsion of its politburo chief Khaled Mashaal if they reached an agreement with Israel under the proposed conditions of the ceasefire agreement. Mediations between Hamas and Israel are led by Egypt.

[Shadow 6,697]

I really hope this conflict ends soon. The loss of life and quality is always tragic... I don't understand how Israelis and non Israelis can coexist in other countries, but can't in that one small piece of land. Can't share for peace and sanity's sake?

[EXCXSXE 0]

I really hope this conflict ends soon. The loss of life and quality is always tragic... I don't understand how Israelis and non Israelis can coexist in other countries, but can't in that one small piece of land. Can't share for peace and sanity's sake?

 

:( Agreed. Even more unfortunate is that this will likely not be the end of conflict in Israel, no matter what the agreement is. 

[Woolfsmck 2,763]

:( Agreed. Even more unfortunate is that this will likely not be the end of conflict in Israel, no matter what the agreement is.

neither side will listen to the other...Arabs don't want Israel there 'at all'. So they feel that any attack is justified.

Israel has tremendous fire power and when they fight back, a lot of civilians get injured and killed.

[Woolfsmck 2,763]

Hamas executes 18 suspected informants for Israel

Gaza gunmen killed 18 alleged spies for Israel on Friday, including seven who were lined up behind a mosque and shot after midday prayers, in response to Israel’s deadly airstrikes against top Hamas military commanders.

Hamas media portrayed the killings as the beginning of a new crackdown, under the rallying cry of “choking the necks of the collaborators.†It was the largest number of suspected informers killed by Hamas in a single day since it seized Gaza by force in 2007.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/hamas-executes-11-alleged-collaborators-after-israel-kills-military-chiefs/article20167947/

if you ask the Pro-Palestinian members...they will tell you that the prisoners were really Israeli salesmen who didn't sell enough cookies this week...-

Plus if your counting... 18 people just got 'murdered' by Palestinians ...compared to a measly 3 Hamas Girl Scouts.... Just for numerical tabulations....8-/

[darkwolf 590]

if you ask the Pro-Palestinian members...they will tell you that the prisoners were really Israeli salesmen who didn't sell enough cookies this week...-

Plus if your counting... 18 people just got 'murdered' by Palestinians ...compared to a measly 3 Hamas Girl Scouts.... Just for numerical tabulations....8-/

There is a HUGE difference between pro-Palestinian and pro-hamas

[lego 44,165]

None of those links are from a good source...

 

Nor is this but I think it's interesting. 

 

http://me-confidential.com/8456-palestine-qatar-pressured-hamas-to-violate-ceasefire.html

 

A source from the Fatah camp is blaming Qatar for the failure to conclude a long lasting ceasefire agreement between Hamas and Israel. The source claimed that Qatar threatened Hamas with the expulsion of its politburo chief Khaled Mashaal if they reached an agreement with Israel under the proposed conditions of the ceasefire agreement. Mediations between Hamas and Israel are led by Egypt.

What is wrong with Israeli source? What kinf of page is that? Can you find more in Hebrew about that Michael Ben-Yair and if he really said that?

Anyway, other sources say Hamas denied, and if Israel really didn't offer proof, it is plausible that it was a false flag operation, it wouldn't be the first time.

Both sides have been breaking and been accusing each other of breaking ceasefires in the past.