It's unfair to just say "The music has dropped in quality"

[Ronk 14,762]

ARTPOP wasn't just a drop in quality musically.

 

It was a drop

 

- conceptually

- visually 

- fashion wise (this especially!)

- dancing wise 

 

etc

I think the opposite.  We have different opinions. Have you been to an artRave concert?  There is no substitute for seeing it live.

[djBuffoon 12,115]

b) sorry, but when a pretty alarming majority of fans--especially those in this thread--agree that the quality has declined, it's probably more than opinion. of course not a fact per se, but it's not just some random opinion that the lyrics are bad, there's some concrete "evidence" that this is true.

I want to address this for a second. From the perspective of a musician who, while a huge fan of tracks like "Bad Romance" and "Speechless", was left underwhelmed by the rest of Gaga's first two albums, Born This Way marked the point where she took a deliberate step away from what was expected by a pop star and started on her journey towards becoming an artist.

 

Yes, I can understand why songs like "Alejandro", "Telephone", and "Love Game" were hits. They were instantly catchy, straightforward, and accessible to pretty much anyone. Does that constitute a great song? Not necessarily, no. Try playing the majority of TF and TFM on the piano, and you'll see what I mean. It's very very very simple and repetitive stuff, albeit with one bang-up chorus after another. Simple isn't a bad thing, but she had to evolve sooner or later.

 

With Born This Way and then ARTPOP, the music gets more interesting. Her signature structure gets switched up on multiple occasions, the chords become more dissonant, the bridges and post-choruses get punchier, the progressions become more unpredictable, and the lyrics really skate ever closer to (deliberate) ridiculousness without ever really falling in. You mentioned "Venus" and "Donatella" in your post. And while I agree the latter isn't quite as sharp as it could have been, I wouldn't change a thing about "Venus". It is an affectionate ode to all things campy and psychedelic. It's a warped, hilarious piece, and not meant to be taken seriously at all.

 

So yes, there are a lot of people who don't understand ARTPOP. And I say "understand" because I've read every possible argument against it, and it's become clear that the vast majority of people want stuff like "Boys Boys Boys" and "Dance in the Dark". They want radio-ready. So I can't blame them for disliking this record. It has nods to what we've seen her do before, but overall a sharp left turn into (imho) bolder, more outlandish music. So I have no idea why some fans would shun formidable and rather glorious material like "Sexxx Dreams" and "Gypsy" and "Mary Jane Holland", and I don't care to figure it out.

[Toph 375]

ARTPOP is a great pop album. However it stands to reason for me at least that it just is not her best work. Again, for me, it is not her best work.

 

With that said, Dope is an underrated masterpiece. Probably one of her best songs IMO. 

[Ronk 14,762]

I want to address this for a second. From the perspective of a musician who, while a huge fan of tracks like "Bad Romance" and "Speechless", was left underwhelmed by the rest of Gaga's first two albums, Born This Way marked the point where she took a deliberate step away from what was expected by a pop star and started on her journey towards becoming an artist.

 

Yes, I can understand why songs like "Alejandro", "Telephone", and "Love Game" were hits. They were instantly catchy, straightforward, and accessible to pretty much anyone. Does that constitute a great song? Not necessarily, no. Try playing the majority of TF and TFM on the piano, and you'll see what I mean. It's very very very simple and repetitive stuff, albeit with one bang-up chorus after another. Simple isn't a bad thing, but she had to evolve sooner or later.

 

With Born This Way and then ARTPOP, the music gets more interesting. Her signature structure gets switched up on multiple occasions, the chords become more dissonant, the bridges and post-choruses get punchier, the progressions become more unpredictable, and the lyrics really skate ever closer to (deliberate) ridiculousness without ever really falling in. You mentioned "Venus" and "Donatella" in your post. And while I agree the latter isn't quite as sharp as it could have been, I wouldn't change a thing about "Venus". It is an affectionate ode to all things campy and psychedelic. It's a warped, hilarious piece, and not meant to be taken seriously at all.

 

So yes, there are a lot of people who don't understand ARTPOP. And I can't blame them. It is a nod to what we've seen her do, but overall a sharp left turn into (imho) bolder, more inventive music.

  MTE.  Gaga's music just keeps getting better and better over time.  Invention is the art of music making, and as Gaga explores this more and more she loses people who yearn for what they're accustomed to hearing from Gaga.  I'm all in for the wild ride, wherever Gaga might take us.

[DMTT 160]

I want to address this for a second. From the perspective of a musician who, while a huge fan of tracks like "Bad Romance" and "Speechless", was left underwhelmed by the rest of Gaga's first two albums, Born This Way marked the point where she took a deliberate step away from what was expected by a pop star and started on her journey towards becoming an artist.

Yes, I can understand why songs like "Alejandro", "Telephone", and "Love Game" were hits. They were instantly catchy, straightforward, and accessible to pretty much anyone. Does that constitute a great song? Not necessarily, no. Try playing the majority of TF and TFM on the piano, and you'll see what I mean. It's very very very simple and repetitive stuff, albeit with one bang-up chorus after another. Simple isn't a bad thing, but she had to evolve sooner or later.

With Born This Way and then ARTPOP, the music gets more interesting. Her signature structure gets switched up on multiple occasions, the chords become more dissonant, the bridges and post-choruses get punchier, the progressions become more unpredictable, and the lyrics really skate ever closer to (deliberate) ridiculousness without ever really falling in. You mentioned "Venus" and "Donatella" in your post. And while I agree the latter isn't quite as sharp as it could have been, I wouldn't change a thing about "Venus". It is an affectionate ode to all things campy and psychedelic. It's a warped, hilarious piece, and not meant to be taken seriously at all.

So yes, there are a lot of people who don't understand ARTPOP. And I say "understand" because I've read every possible argument against it, and it's become clear that the vast majority of people want stuff like "Boys Boys Boys" and "Dance in the Dark". They want radio-ready. So I can't blame them for disliking this record. It has nods to what we've seen her do before, but overall a sharp left turn into (imho) bolder, more outlandish music. So I have no idea why some fans would shun formidable and rather glorious material like "Sexxx Dreams" and "Gypsy" and "Mary Jane Holland", and I don't care to figure it out.

I don't really understand, because Alejandro is deeper than just about all of ARTPOP.

And so you're trying to tell me gaga deliberately wrote terrible lyrics for ARTPOP as an ode to campiness? No offense, that makes no sense.

As for the complexity of her song structure, there're just a few songs on BTW and AP that break away from the typical structure--nothing that proves your point anyway; however, in terms of sonics (chords, production, etc), I didn't even mention that, because I agree. The production on AP is excellent, I can't argue (though you say how repetitive and simple TF is, but BTW and AP both have quite repetitive production for each song as well, so again I miss your point).

I was literally just commenting on the decline of her lyrics. She was never a great songwriter, but she at least used to have more quality lyrics and seemed to put effort in them. On AP especially, it's like she wrote the song in five minutes after coming up with a crazy word/idea while heavily intoxicated on god knows what d--g.

[tokyodisko 0]

ARTPOP imo is her only forced album.Very little of it seemed natural in any way. I think she forces her changes instead of allowing them to happen naturally- it's been that way since TF, but the BTW decline in popularity really pushed it further for ARTPOP. Forced artistic growth very rarely sounds any good to me. 

BTW and TFM were probably her most organic musically. I'd maybe even say TFM over BTW, because she seemed depressed during BTW and like she was putting on a smile for the fans. TF was just a fun pop album, "too pop" maybe, but that's what she was going for. It's just a matter of taste though.

[djBuffoon 12,115]

I don't really understand, because Alejandro is deeper than just about all of ARTPOP.

And so you're trying to tell me gaga deliberately wrote terrible lyrics for ARTPOP as an ode to campiness? No offense, that makes no sense.

As for the complexity of her song structure, there're just a few songs on BTW and AP that break away from the typical structure--nothing that proves your point anyway; however, in terms of sonics (chords, production, etc), I didn't even mention that, because I agree. The production on AP is excellent, I can't argue (though you say how repetitive and simple TF is, but BTW and AP both have quite repetitive production for each song as well, so again I miss your point).

I was literally just commenting on the decline of her lyrics. She was never a great songwriter, but she at least used to have more quality lyrics and seemed to put effort in them. On AP especially, it's like she wrote the song in five minutes after coming up with a crazy word/idea while heavily intoxicated on god knows what d--g.

Ummm no, I commented solely on "Venus" and "Donatella". The rest of the lyrics are as sound as they've always been, but more abstract and more interesting to me.

 

And yes, perhaps you do miss my point. Listen to the instrumentals on all her albums. For example, the second verses of "Poker Face" or "Alejandro". Sounds exactly like the first. Now listen to the second verses of "Sexxx Dreams" or "Venus" or "GUY" or "ARTPOP". There's more body and a more symphonic movement arrangement of the first. It's subtle, but it makes a difference.

 

If you honestly feel like her AP work sounded like it was assembled in five minutes, or that she was never a great songwriter, I'm not sure what to say to you.

[djBuffoon 12,115]

ARTPOP imo is her only forced album.Very little of it seemed natural in any way. I think she forces her changes instead of allowing them to happen naturally- it's been that way since TF, but the BTW decline in popularity really pushed it further for ARTPOP. Forced artistic growth very rarely sounds any good to me. 

TD, you're a cutie and I swear we've talked about this a couple times, but I'm still stumped. How does it sound forced? What is forced artistic growth? How do you know that she wasn't perfectly comfortable in these musical elements?

[tokyodisko 0]

TD, you're a cutie and I swear we've talked about this a couple times, but I'm still stumped. How does it sound forced? What is forced artistic growth? How do you know that she wasn't perfectly comfortable in these musical elements?

There are just things about that don't feel or make sense organically from Gaga. It's really hard to describe. Maybe she was comfortable with them, but I think the massive changes between TFM>BTW>AP show kind of what I mean. Lyrically, musically. She strives and is insecure about her artistry when she isn't on top. She wants to be taken seriously as an artist. She wants to turn every last hater into a fan who loves her talent. I feel like ARTPOP was a crusade to be taken seriously, despite her saying it was supposed to be fun. Her personality the whole era and her breakdowns/blackouts reflect what I mean. She isn't anywhere near as confident when she isn't number one. Imo half of ARTPOP was written for the critics and not Gaga or the fans. I think her attitude lately is getting a bit more relaxed and realizing she can get back to the top, but I hope she stops giving attention to the haters. Besides, just telling them she doesn't care won't help her care any less, she needs to put that energy into her work and release a number one for her to be happy and confident in her art. I think TAPB is so happy because she is realizing she can do that and doesn't always have to write super serious music to be credited as a good artist with talent. Her vocals on this tour are amazing- even during her older stuff. 

I don't know. It's a combination of her personality, habits, patterns, music, and lyrics that lead me to think this. I wish I could describe it better.   

[DMTT 160]

Ummm no, I commented solely on "Venus" and "Donatella". The rest of the lyrics are as sound as they've always been, but more abstract and more interesting to me.

And yes, perhaps you do miss my point. Listen to the instrumentals on all her albums. For example, the second verses of "Poker Face" or "Alejandro". Sounds exactly like the first. Now listen to the second verses of "Sexxx Dreams" or "Venus" or "GUY" or "ARTPOP". There's more body and a more symphonic movement arrangement of the first. It's subtle, but it makes a difference.

If you honestly feel like her AP work sounded like it was assembled in five minutes, or that she was never a great songwriter, I'm not sure what to say to you.

You keep missing MY point haha I'm LITERALLY just talking about her lyrics. it sounds like she wrote the LYRICS in five minutes. I already said I agree with you about the production of the album..... Also, I was commenting on the song STRUCTURE that is repetitive and nothing different than her early stuff.

If you think the other songs have good lyrics, then we have to agree to diagree, because I think ARTPOP is a truly horrifically written album. She's always had some (some--not all) really bad lyrics though, so again, you failed to see my point.

Not trying to start a fight or anything, just read what I'm saying before you continue the convo. I know it's long though, so probably hard to miss haha :)

[djBuffoon 12,115]

I don't know. It's a combination of her personality, habits, patterns, music, and lyrics that lead me to think this. I wish I could describe it better.   

Granted, her offstage behavior is a little erratic, but we only see 1/10 of the picture, if that. But, musically and lyrically, AP sounds like Gaga at her most invigorated, refreshed, and free.

 

Amazing how two equally a--lytical sets of ears can hear something so completely at odds.  

 

If you think the other songs have good lyrics, then we have to agree to diagree, because I think ARTPOP is a truly horrifically written album. She's always had some (some--not all) really bad lyrics though, so again, you failed to see my point.

Okay. 

[DMTT 160]

Granted, her offstage behavior is a little erratic, but we only see 1/10 of the picture, if that. But, musically and lyrically, AP sounds like Gaga at her most invigorated, refreshed, and free.

Amazing how two equally a--lytical sets of ears can hear something so completely at odds.

Okay.

That being said AP is the album I always listen to when I run at the gym; it's so perfect for working out! :legend:

[XoXoJoanneGaga 629]

I want to address this for a second. From the perspective of a musician who, while a huge fan of tracks like "Bad Romance" and "Speechless", was left underwhelmed by the rest of Gaga's first two albums, Born This Way marked the point where she took a deliberate step away from what was expected by a pop star and started on her journey towards becoming an artist.

 

Yes, I can understand why songs like "Alejandro", "Telephone", and "Love Game" were hits. They were instantly catchy, straightforward, and accessible to pretty much anyone. Does that constitute a great song? Not necessarily, no. Try playing the majority of TF and TFM on the piano, and you'll see what I mean. It's very very very simple and repetitive stuff, albeit with one bang-up chorus after another. Simple isn't a bad thing, but she had to evolve sooner or later.

 

With Born This Way and then ARTPOP, the music gets more interesting. Her signature structure gets switched up on multiple occasions, the chords become more dissonant, the bridges and post-choruses get punchier, the progressions become more unpredictable, and the lyrics really skate ever closer to (deliberate) ridiculousness without ever really falling in. You mentioned "Venus" and "Donatella" in your post. And while I agree the latter isn't quite as sharp as it could have been, I wouldn't change a thing about "Venus". It is an affectionate ode to all things campy and psychedelic. It's a warped, hilarious piece, and not meant to be taken seriously at all.

 

So yes, there are a lot of people who don't understand ARTPOP. And I say "understand" because I've read every possible argument against it, and it's become clear that the vast majority of people want stuff like "Boys Boys Boys" and "Dance in the Dark". They want radio-ready. So I can't blame them for disliking this record. It has nods to what we've seen her do before, but overall a sharp left turn into (imho) bolder, more outlandish music. So I have no idea why some fans would shun formidable and rather glorious material like "Sexxx Dreams" and "Gypsy" and "Mary Jane Holland", and I don't care to figure it out.

I actually love daring, experimental music that isn't radio friendly, but ARTPOP really isn't that. The songs still have the conventional pop structure and it still sounds like she was trying to make hits. An album like Yeezus is truly experimental and anti-radio. Venus and Bad Romance have the exact same structure, but Bad Romance has much better production, lyrics, chorus, etc. This album feels like a stepping stone to her making truly experimental music, but this isn't it. It's still 100% pop it's just not as infectious or catchy as her previous work. 

[djBuffoon 12,115]

I actually love daring, experimental music that isn't radio friendly, but ARTPOP really isn't that. The songs still have the conventional pop structure and it still sounds like she was trying to make hits. An album like Yeezus is truly experimental and anti-radio. Venus and Bad Romance have the exact same structure, but Bad Romance has much better production, lyrics, chorus, etc. This album feels like a stepping stone to her making truly experimental music, but this isn't it. It's still 100% pop it's just not as infectious or catchy as her previous work. 

I disagree, but well-put. I wouldn't (and didn't) call the album experimental. But daring and bold for one of the biggest pop stars on the planet, with all eyes and ears on her? I'd say so. I don't see tracks like "Aura", "Venus", "Fashion!", "Dope", "Mary Jane Holland", "Swine", and several others as 'trying to make hits'. It sounds like Gaga at her most liberated, taking off her own shackles and being allowed to play around. Not as catchy as her previous work? Perhaps I'll grant you that. But infinitely more intoxicating and seductive than just about anything she's done pre-BTW. The conviction her craft, the production, and her vocals were as on-point as ever in AP, but I know you feel differently.

[XoXoJoanneGaga 629]

I disagree, but well-put. I wouldn't (and didn't) call the album experimental. But daring and bold for one of the biggest pop stars on the planet, with all eyes and ears on her? I'd say so. I don't see tracks like "Aura", "Venus", "Fashion!", "Dope", "Mary Jane Holland", "Swine", and several others as 'trying to make hits'. It sounds like Gaga at her most liberated, taking off her own shackles and being allowed to play around. Not as catchy as her previous work? Perhaps I'll grant you that. But infinitely more intoxicating and seductive than just about anything she's done pre-BTW. The conviction her craft, the production, and her vocals were as on-point as ever in AP, but I know you feel differently.

I agree that Aura is experimental, it's the one song that breaks her traditional structure and it's really great, but the fact that she toned it down for the album version is an example of her compromising. Or the fact that she toned down Swine from the crazy 6-minute version that leaked. I just want her to fully commit to whatever she does, so if she put out Act 2 and it was full of songs like the Aura demo, or Partynauseous (which sounds more out there than anything on the album) I think it could be amazing