Beyoncé, Rihanna & more: 23 ways to killed if your black in America

July 14, 2016

33 minutes ago, Harry said:

Prejudism undoubtedly exists. Racism isn’t as simple as “I’m white and I hate blacks!” and I think people like you need to understand that. I’ve seen you make sweeping generalisations about black people on here before so it feels very ironic to see you say this kinda thing. Whites are undeniably the dominant race in the Western world so clearly racism from them hits harder and with more impact than a black person making a joke about a white person. Don’t you think after the years and years of systematic oppression suffered by blacks, a “white people be like” meme pales a little in comparison?

That’s good for you. But the amount of times you’ve laid this “I’m not a racist” spiel on this forum makes me wonder. This is your first post in this thread, you quoted me. No one exactly accused you of being in the KKK, did they? You don’t have to accept responsibility but you can at least acknowledge a problem and educate yourself on it rather than adamantly DENY it and cover your tracks. If those tracks don’t exist, why are you giving us your personal backstory to cover your ass? Are you feeling guilty?

“Their oppression makes them arrogant” - can’t you understand why? If you felt the level of judgement faced by black people in America from the moment you were born you’d probably be quite angry, too. I don’t think asking to not have your innocent men shot down in the street is asking for better treatment. You’re struggling to understand the magnitude of this.

Jane Elliot’s experiment has gone over your head. “She allows the brown eyes to become arrogant and never questions them for it” - that’s her intention. People get put in a position of power socially and naturally feel superior thus deny any oppression faced by others. Sound familiar? I’ve never seen her remove someone from the room. She puts the blue eyed people down on purpose. It’s literally the whole point. I saw a girl leave the room but it was her choice because she couldn’t handle it. Also sounds familiar to me. If you’ve seen the film you’d see her tell all the people afterwards that the whole thing goes against everything she stands for but it’s her belief that the experiment makes it’s point and has seen exceptional results. You can have your opinion over her methods, but no offence, I trust POC who have actually felt that prejudice and scholars over you.

There’s actually a girl in one of the experiments like you. Who starts crying about how she has suffered. But it’s not the same thing. Are you an “All Lives Matter” advocate, by any chance? Because it’s the same principle. You’d rather not focus in on the issues of one group because it makes you feel uncomfortable. “WE ALL HAVE OUR PROBLEMS :’(“ is such an ignorant dismissal of the genuine and massive issues faced by people of colour. No one is saying you don’t have issues. Her experiments make people relate to the struggles of others. Compassion. The only people that are angry about it are the people who’d rather do nothing. Can it not be about you for just five minutes? Can you discuss the oppression of others for a small amount of time? You say you’re about equality but I’ve only ever seen you recognise and discuss misogyny. I.e. something that affects you. Funny that.

Once again, you missed the point. She’s not genuinely trying to put her down. It’s an act. The clue’s literally in the title. Experiment. EXPERIMENT. But once again, it comes back to you. How the hell would you know what black kids feel like? I’ve seen you say numerous times how ironic it feels to have a man tell a woman about sexism. You probably shiver in disgust whenever a man dismisses obvious misogyny as “not a big deal” or equivalent phrase. Can’t you see how that works in this situation? A white person telling black people how they should just get over it? I’m honestly shocked that someone who preaches equality can’t see how frankly disgusting that is. No one was talking about teachers here, YOU brought that up.

“There's nothing wrong with a harsh experiment to open up ignorant people's eyes...but it's got to end in unity, love, understanding, respect for all.” That’s literally what she preaches. She cries regularly about racism. I’ve rarely seen a person be so genuinely upset and compassionate for a cause that doesn’t affect her. Her mission is clear… Her life work is fighting to end racism but you think she’s against unity? What kind of logic… There’s disagreeing with her methods and then there’s twisting it.

If you want to talk about your bullying and suffering then go make a thread about it. This is about racism. Stop trying to shut down the conversation. It makes you a part of the problem.

I'm saying racism isn't that simple either, but in a different way. Just because a white person picks on a non-white person, it doesn't automatically mean they're racist. They could just be rightfully criticising a part of this person's character or they could simply be a nasty person who hates everyone. Or both. To jump right in with racism allegations is overly simplistic, short sighted and wrong. Think about all the possibles first and leave racism at the bottom of the pile until every other option is cleared. I do the same thing with sexism. I leave it until the last minute, when every other option is exercised and thrown out (and acknowledge that even then, I might still be wrong). I wish racism was dealt with in the same way. But no, close-minded conclusions are jumped too way too quickly for my liking. I've never made sweeping generalisations about blacks, I always use phrases like "some," "certain people," etc. Any generalisations you saw was likely for effect, it was never meant intentionally. Yes, of course whites are the most dominant race and I'm not denying that their racism hits harder. But that doesn't mean that laughing at whites is an appropriate way to respond to this. It doesn't exactly make white racists change their minds when non-whites are acting up to their stereotypes, is it? How about non-whites try to break down every stereotype and be polite and respectful at all times? Don't you think that would make white racists realise they'd got it all wrong? Treat others the way you wish to be treated. And by the way, I'm talking about much worse stuff than a "whites be like" meme. That cute reference is always used to demean the much more serious racism from non-whites.

I have to put forward my "I'm not a racist" speech because its something I've been accused of recently (which has never happened to me) and I'm starting to become afraid that untruths will get spread about me. Secondly, it's very important to me that people get the most realistic impression of me at all times, so I strive to provide that. Secondly, putting this spiel forward is the only way I stand a chance of getting listened to. As soon as a white person starts challenging racism, they get judged, they get silenced, their point is not taken into consideration, no matter how good it is. If there's some sort of disclaimer before it, they stand a better chance. But even then, they can still struggle (the "I have black friends" idea is frequently criticised even though I have no idea why as real racists wouldn't have black friends). Believe me, I find this spiel just as tiresome as you do, but it's necessary to get the slightest speck of credibility when I talk about race. Because whites have been put down as automatically guilty in today's society, you've got to start defending yourself before you've even been accused. And I did acknowledge that the problem exists and I have educated myself on it. Notice how you assume I'm not educated on something because you simply don't agree with what I'm saying about it? It's possible to understand something but still find flaws in it. And see how you're trying to guilt trip me? No, I can assure you, I am 100% NOT guilty. I only guilt trip myself because it's required of you when you're white and you want to speak about racial issues. It's better than putting in your backstory after you've made your point. Usually, the other person is too far gone by that point and will refuse to listen to you because they've already made up their mind about you.

Oh, I can totally understand where their anger comes from. I've already said I feel annoyed at all the sexism I've suffered as a woman. But that doesn't mean that I find bullying men, hitting men, trying to get one over on men an acceptable form of response. Men may be the dominant force and caused a lot of trouble for women but that doesn't mean I generalise them, want them to 'pay,' assume they are all uneducated and ignorant. I think showing love and respect for everyone will make you more likely to be treated with it. Plus, as a human rights advocate, I want all people treated equally and I realise there's even more oppressed groups than my own. I don't accept arrogance from women no matter what sexism has flung at them. I don't accept it from anyone else either. Oppression is no excuse to be hateful. And I'm not struggling to understand the magnitude of it. I wasn't talking about innocent blacks being shot dead in the street, I'm referring to simple downsides in life like getting bullied. So many blacks think when it happens to them, it's racially motivated. What's their proof of that if there were no racist names thrown at them? I have seen all manner of various problems recently be presented as racial problems and I'm like: "People of all races go through this all the time and nobody says a word about it, why do these people think it's racially motivated?" That's what I mean when I say they don't realise that they're asking for special treatment. White people go through the issues they complain about all the time and yet we never complain about them. We just see them as "that's life." Yet, when it happens to them, it's to do with race. There's something not right here.

Her experiment has not gone over my head at all. I know what she's trying to do but she's going about it wrong and no one learns anything from it. Nobody is any different from when they enter to when they leave (apart from some of the whites feeling a bit hurt). It just insults people with blue eyes and gives people with brown eyes a power trip for a short while. She tells whites that they don't want to see other white people treated badly for a few minutes (when I don't want to see anyone treated badly, of any race). It's ignorance disguised as education. I know it's her intention to get the brown eyes a superiority complex but she never removes that at the end of the experiment. What she should be saying at the end is: "Now don't all you brown eyes feel guilty for laughing at these people? Aren't the things you don't find funny when it happens to you suddenly funny when it happens to them? Are you basking in the feeling of being hateful?" She should then teach that no matter who you are, you have no right to oppress or look down on anybody and that being oppressed doesn't give you a right to act nasty. She removed 2 people from the room on 2 separate occasions when she did the experiment in Britain:

Look at 11:48-13:58 (a boy saying just what I said, he wanted to be on the receiving end and doesn't want to be an aggressor is ordered out by security) and 22:08-22:50 (a girl trying to re-direct the flow of the experiment is again forced out by Jane and she flat out says: "She is not writing this show.")

See? This isn't an experiment. An experiment involves setting up a situation and then seeing how things work out, it's not planned, it's off the cuff. Jane sets out with specific intentions that must be met and she doesn't want anyone messing with her script that is formed in such a way that she always wins. It's an exercise in her own close-minded theories, not by any means an enlightenment exercise. It gives the illusion it has taught something when all it has bred is hurt and hatred on both sides. Fine, you can trust POC and scholars over my view, but, if I do say so myself, I think what I just said was an intelligent theory that no one has dared to speak of yet, that's worthy of being listened to.

Actually, yes, it is pretty much the same thing. Jane doesn't know if any of these individuals have suffered, she has no idea. She assumes they have no problems based on their race. That's racist. She's clearly never had any problems, so she assumes no other white person does either. No, I'm not an All Lives Matter adovocate (I don't associate with actual groups like that, I'm my own person) but I do want the suffering of all people recognised and treated so that we all on the same level and I don't think some people's struggle is worth more than others. I don't believe in categorising suffering, putting a price on suffering, making suffering into a competition. I am fine with individual groups fighting for their rights (hello, I'm a feminist) but that doesn't mean that these groups have a right to lord it over others and act like they're above them. No, Jane's experiments only serve to make people relate to the struggles of ethnic minorities, not other issues. It's about racial issues (which is all well and good) but about no more than that. I feel no compassion from her, she is a cold, emotionless woman. No, I'm angry about it not because I feel uncomfortable or would rather do nothing but because her experiment is useless and could be done so much better. The funny thing is, I am fighting for it NOT to be about me. I'm talking about the issues we all face, of all colours. Trying to find unity in that. Realising that we need to rise together as a culture to stop these problems happening to everyone, not just one race or our individual selves. Of course I can discuss the oppression of others, I'm more than happy to do that, that's what I'm encouraging happen, actually. You are misinterpreting my motives entirely, just like Jane is. She sets out to misinterpret the reactions. I have actually discussed the oppression of other people other than women, actually. I brought up how a black person on GGD tried to convince me that Asians don't have any problems in America and I provided him with evidence to the contrary, which he ignored. I also talked about the physical and psychological dangers of skin bleaching creams when the Azealia story broke some days ago. I was also talking about the hardships some of the LGBT community go through recently to. It just seems to be that by chance, you're not discovering these moments, so you think they don't exist. Does that sound familiar? I fight against the oppression of anyone. But as long as it's a genuine oppression that can be proven.

Of course it's an act but it still stings. It would hurt me because it would remind me of pain I've suffered in my life. But Jane never thinks that's why some people break down, she thinks it's all tied to their selfish need to be treated better than everyone else. I can't say how these black kids feel like, but how would Jane know what all the white ones feel like either? You can't see into anyone's head, so you can't judge what they feel. Now, you brought up what I knew would happen eventually - why my complaints of sexism not being understood is no different to the racism that isn't understood. But I have an answer for that too. Racism is much better documented. We are taught about it in schools. We are lectured to about it everywhere we look. Sexism doesn't work like that. It isn't something we're educated against, its existance is denied far worse than racism is. It's a much more invisible problem. When someone brings up a race issue, black or white, people will nod and understand where they're coming from. When someone brings up a feminist issue, people deny it, they say women are equal now, you are laughed at and told to stop whining. It's a completely difficult ball game. There's no widespread education on it, no one but the feminists know statistics and how widespread and serious it is (I mean, try telling people that sexism exists in the western world and see how far you get). Even some women deny sexism still exists and join anti-feminist causes (you won't find that for racism). That is why I fight so hard against sexism - I'm fighting against something that is widely denied, even by other women. Racism, on the other hand, is known, it's just that racists don't admit to it. But a lot of sexist outright state that they see no sexism at all. I mean, most people don't even know the definition of sexual assault. It's very different. I have NEVER told a black person to get over it. The only criticism I give is when they complain about issues that we all suffer from, not just blacks.

But she doesn't preach love and respect at all. She begins harsh, she ends harsh. The end of the Oprah video actually was that woman saying that she realises she is prejudiced and that we all need to move past skin colour and spread love. Jane replies that she's not sold on love, she wants a just society, then there can be love. That's obviously what this women meant. That's what I mean about Jane twisting things. She deliberately makes the other person look stupid, even when they're not, even when the game is up. She does it so she always looks smarter and superior to everyone. Oh, she's compassionate about the cause alright, in the most sickening, self-hating way imaginable that gives whites a bad name. Because of people like her, whites are encouraged to feel inherently guilty when they're not. I'm not the twister, she is. Notice how she convinces you that everyone else is the one twisting things? I have the feeling that even if world peace was achieved tomorrow, she wouldn't be happy. She'd find some way to find fault in it. That's just the kind of person that she is, you can tell.

I'm not trying to shut down the conversation at all, I'm trying to expand it. Look, I'm interested in talking about real racial issues. Being followed around when shopping? Being forced to accept white standards of beauty? Being under-represented in media and being forced into stereotypical roles? Being forced to make music according to your race? Having separate proms for blacks and whites (in America)? Racist name-calling and subsequent abuse? Let's talk about all that. Real, legitimate racial issues where there is no conclusion other than racism. But I'm not interested in entertaining theories about how if you get a low score on a test that a teacher's racist or every bully is a racist or you can't find a job because of racism, etc. These are cases where racism can't be proven, it's all speculation. And it's stuff that all people go through, it's not racially exclusive. That's what I'm fighting against, not actual, proven instances of racism.

July 14, 2016

12 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I'm saying racism isn't that simple either, but in a different way. Just because a white person picks on a non-white person, it doesn't automatically mean they're racist. They could just be rightfully criticising a part of this person's character or they could simply be a nasty person who hates everyone. Or both. To jump right in with racism allegations is overly simplistic, short sighted and wrong. Think about all the possibles first and leave racism at the bottom of the pile until every other option is cleared. I do the same thing with sexism. I leave it until the last minute, when every other option is exercised and thrown out (and acknowledge that even then, I might still be wrong). I wish racism was dealt with in the same way. But no, close-minded conclusions are jumped too way too quickly for my liking. I've never made sweeping generalisations about blacks, I always use phrases like "some," "certain people," etc. Any generalisations you saw was likely for effect, it was never meant intentionally. Yes, of course whites are the most dominant race and I'm not denying that their racism hits harder. But that doesn't mean that laughing at whites is an appropriate way to respond to this. It doesn't exactly make white racists change their minds when non-whites are acting up to their stereotypes, is it? How about non-whites try to break down every stereotype and be polite and respectful at all times? Don't you think that would make white racists realise they'd got it all wrong? Treat others the way you wish to be treated. And by the way, I'm talking about much worse stuff than a "whites be like" meme. That cute reference is always used to demean the much more serious racism from non-whites.

I have to put forward my "I'm not a racist" speech because its something I've been accused of recently (which has never happened to me) and I'm starting to become afraid that untruths will get spread about me. Secondly, it's very important to me that people get the most realistic impression of me at all times, so I strive to provide that. Secondly, putting this spiel forward is the only way I stand a chance of getting listened to. As soon as a white person starts challenging racism, they get judged, they get silenced, their point is not taken into consideration, no matter how good it is. If there's some sort of disclaimer before it, they stand a better chance. But even then, they can still struggle (the "I have black friends" idea is frequently criticised even though I have no idea why as real racists wouldn't have black friends). Believe me, I find this spiel just as tiresome as you do, but it's necessary to get the slightest speck of credibility when I talk about race. Because whites have been put down as automatically guilty in today's society, you've got to start defending yourself before you've even been accused. And I did acknowledge that the problem exists and I have educated myself on it. Notice how you assume I'm not educated on something because you simply don't agree with what I'm saying about it? It's possible to understand something but still find flaws in it. And see how you're trying to guilt trip me? No, I can assure you, I am 100% NOT guilty. I only guilt trip myself because it's required of you when you're white and you want to speak about racial issues. It's better than putting in your backstory after you've made your point. Usually, the other person is too far gone by that point and will refuse to listen to you because they've already made up their mind about you.

Oh, I can totally understand where their anger comes from. I've already said I feel annoyed at all the sexism I've suffered as a woman. But that doesn't mean that I find bullying men, hitting men, trying to get one over on men an acceptable form of response. Men may be the dominant force and caused a lot of trouble for women but that doesn't mean I generalise them, want them to 'pay,' assume they are all uneducated and ignorant. I think showing love and respect for everyone will make you more likely to be treated with it. Plus, as a human rights advocate, I want all people treated equally and I realise there's even more oppressed groups than my own. I don't accept arrogance from women no matter what sexism has flung at them. I don't accept it from anyone else either. Oppression is no excuse to be hateful. And I'm not struggling to understand the magnitude of it. I wasn't talking about innocent blacks being shot dead in the street, I'm referring to simple downsides in life like getting bullied. So many blacks think when it happens to them, it's racially motivated. What's their proof of that if there were no racist names thrown at them? I have seen all manner of various problems recently be presented as racial problems and I'm like: "People of all races go through this all the time and nobody says a word about it, why do these people think it's racially motivated?" That's what I mean when I say they don't realise that they're asking for special treatment. White people go through the issues they complain about all the time and yet we never complain about them. We just see them as "that's life." Yet, when it happens to them, it's to do with race. There's something not right here.

Her experiment has not gone over my head at all. I know what she's trying to do but she's going about it wrong and no one learns anything from it. Nobody is any different from when they enter to when they leave (apart from some of the whites feeling a bit hurt). It just insults people with blue eyes and gives people with brown eyes a power trip for a short while. She tells whites that they don't want to see other white people treated badly for a few minutes (when I don't want to see anyone treated badly, of any race). It's ignorance disguised as education. I know it's her intention to get the brown eyes a superiority complex but she never removes that at the end of the experiment. What she should be saying at the end is: "Now don't all you brown eyes feel guilty for laughing at these people? Aren't the things you don't find funny when it happens to you suddenly funny when it happens to them? Are you basking in the feeling of being hateful?" She should then teach that no matter who you are, you have no right to oppress or look down on anybody and that being oppressed doesn't give you a right to act nasty. She removed 2 people from the room on 2 separate occasions when she did the experiment in Britain:

Look at 11:48-13:58 (a boy saying just what I said, he wanted to be on the receiving end and doesn't want to be an aggressor is ordered out by security) and 22:08-22:50 (a girl trying to re-direct the flow of the experiment is again forced out by Jane and she flat out says: "She is not writing this show.")

See? This isn't an experiment. An experiment involves setting up a situation and then seeing how things work out, it's not planned, it's off the cuff. Jane sets out with specific intentions that must be met and she doesn't want anyone messing with her script that is formed in such a way that she always wins. It's an exercise in her own close-minded theories, not by any means an enlightenment exercise. It gives the illusion it has taught something when all it has bred is hurt and hatred on both sides. Fine, you can trust POC and scholars over my view, but, if I do say so myself, I think what I just said was an intelligent theory that no one has dared to speak of yet, that's worthy of being listened to.

Actually, yes, it is pretty much the same thing. Jane doesn't know if any of these individuals have suffered, she has no idea. She assumes they have no problems based on their race. That's racist. She's clearly never had any problems, so she assumes no other white person does either. No, I'm not an All Lives Matter adovocate (I don't associate with actual groups like that, I'm my own person) but I do want the suffering of all people recognised and treated so that we all on the same level and I don't think some people's struggle is worth more than others. I don't believe in categorising suffering, putting a price on suffering, making suffering into a competition. I am fine with individual groups fighting for their rights (hello, I'm a feminist) but that doesn't mean that these groups have a right to lord it over others and act like they're above them. No, Jane's experiments only serve to make people relate to the struggles of ethnic minorities, not other issues. It's about racial issues (which is all well and good) but about no more than that. I feel no compassion from her, she is a cold, emotionless woman. No, I'm angry about it not because I feel uncomfortable or would rather do nothing but because her experiment is useless and could be done so much better. The funny thing is, I am fighting for it NOT to be about me. I'm talking about the issues we all face, of all colours. Trying to find unity in that. Realising that we need to rise together as a culture to stop these problems happening to everyone, not just one race or our individual selves. Of course I can discuss the oppression of others, I'm more than happy to do that, that's what I'm encouraging happen, actually. You are misinterpreting my motives entirely, just like Jane is. She sets out to misinterpret the reactions. I have actually discussed the oppression of other people other than women, actually. I brought up how a black person on GGD tried to convince me that Asians don't have any problems in America and I provided him with evidence to the contrary, which he ignored. I also talked about the physical and psychological dangers of skin bleaching creams when the Azealia story broke some days ago. I was also talking about the hardships some of the LGBT community go through recently to. It just seems to be that by chance, you're not discovering these moments, so you think they don't exist. Does that sound familiar? I fight against the oppression of anyone. But as long as it's a genuine oppression that can be proven.

Of course it's an act but it still stings. It would hurt me because it would remind me of pain I've suffered in my life. But Jane never thinks that's why some people break down, she thinks it's all tied to their selfish need to be treated better than everyone else. I can't say how these black kids feel like, but how would Jane know what all the white ones feel like either? You can't see into anyone's head, so you can't judge what they feel. Now, you brought up what I knew would happen eventually - why my complaints of sexism not being understood is no different to the racism that isn't understood. But I have an answer for that too. Racism is much better documented. We are taught about it in schools. We are lectured to about it everywhere we look. Sexism doesn't work like that. It isn't something we're educated against, its existance is denied far worse than racism is. It's a much more invisible problem. When someone brings up a race issue, black or white, people will nod and understand where they're coming from. When someone brings up a feminist issue, people deny it, they say women are equal now, you are laughed at and told to stop whining. It's a completely difficult ball game. There's no widespread education on it, no one but the feminists know statistics and how widespread and serious it is (I mean, try telling people that sexism exists in the western world and see how far you get). Even some women deny sexism still exists and join anti-feminist causes (you won't find that for racism). That is why I fight so hard against sexism - I'm fighting against something that is widely denied, even by other women. Racism, on the other hand, is known, it's just that racists don't admit to it. But a lot of sexist outright state that they see no sexism at all. I mean, most people don't even know the definition of sexual assault. It's very different. I have NEVER told a black person to get over it. The only criticism I give is when they complain about issues that we all suffer from, not just blacks.

But she doesn't preach love and respect at all. She begins harsh, she ends harsh. The end of the Oprah video actually was that woman saying that she realises she is prejudiced and that we all need to move past skin colour and spread love. Jane replies that she's not sold on love, she wants a just society, then there can be love. That's obviously what this women meant. That's what I mean about Jane twisting things. She deliberately makes the other person look stupid, even when they're not, even when the game is up. She does it so she always looks smarter and superior to everyone. Oh, she's compassionate about the cause alright, in the most sickening, self-hating way imaginable that gives whites a bad name. Because of people like her, whites are encouraged to feel inherently guilty when they're not. I'm not the twister, she is. Notice how she convinces you that everyone else is the one twisting things? I have the feeling that even if world peace was achieved tomorrow, she wouldn't be happy. She'd find some way to find fault in it. That's just the kind of person that she is, you can tell.

I'm not trying to shut down the conversation at all, I'm trying to expand it. Look, I'm interested in talking about real racial issues. Being followed around when shopping? Being forced to accept white standards of beauty? Being under-represented in media and being forced into stereotypical roles? Being forced to make music according to your race? Having separate proms for blacks and whites (in America)? Racist name-calling and subsequent abuse? Let's talk about all that. Real, legitimate racial issues where there is no conclusion other than racism. But I'm not interested in entertaining theories about how if you get a low score on a test that a teacher's racist or every bully is a racist or you can't find a job because of racism, etc. These are cases where racism can't be proven, it's all speculation. And it's stuff that all people go through, it's not racially exclusive. That's what I'm fighting against, not actual, proven instances of racism.

Okay fine no one else has suffered but you so we should just talk about white problems. Happy? Like I said... You're free to make your own thread if you want it to be about you and how hard your life is.

"I'm interested in talking about real racial issues. Being followed around when shopping? Being forced to accept white standards of beauty? Being under-represented in media and being forced into stereotypical roles? Being forced to make music according to your race? Having separate proms for blacks and whites (in America)? Racist name-calling and subsequent abuse?" All of these major issues are that, major. And that's what we are talking about. The very subject of this thread is about innocent black people getting killed. So talk about them. Because I haven't seen you say a damn word.

Jane knows that it upsets people. She wants it to. You're complaining so hard right now about those white people feeling upset and scrutinised for maybe an hour, but you are completely ignoring the fact that some people are made to feel like that daily in America. And yes, you have to remember that her work is US-focused. It's not nearly as bad where we both grew up and live. But it still exists and I can't believe you'd be so blind to insist that it doesn't.

I'm inclined to believe that if you're so upset or angry about Jane Elliott's theories and experiments then she's struck a nerve with you. Clearly you'd much rather silence her and sweep all these possibilities under the rug. It isn't about feeling guilt. I don't feel guilty, I just feel awful that groups of people have been made to needlessly suffer for so long. And it makes me angry when people like you try to justify and excuse it, in addition to trying to divert the attention to problems faced by other people. You can brush off the 'All Lives Matter' thing so carelessly if you want, but that's essentially the agenda that you're promoting here.

Why are you so afraid of having a conversation that's just about racism towards blacks without bringing white people problems into it? I don't buy your argument about sexism at all. This isn't oppression olympics. Yes racism is talked about, but you really don't think there are people that deny racism exists? I saw someone on this very site yesterday say how these recent shootings aren't as much of a problem as they're "made out to be"... I've seen several black people see racism doesn't exist so I don't know where on earth you pulled that from. Just because "racism" is a known buzzword that is used often, doesn't mean that anything is done about it. I could take every argument you've made in an attempt to make the conversation about white people and apply it to women/men. It's actually the same strategy men use to shut down conversations about sexism. "Men have problems too, listen to us!!!!" "I'm not sexist, but..."

And you say people don't understand sexism etc but I don't think you understand racism. The fact you think saying you have a black friend automatically makes you non-racist alone says it all. Like I said, 'racist' doesn't = KKK membership. I don't think you understand the institutionalised aspect of it and the repercussions. So transparent.

"Racism, on the other hand, is known, it's just that racists don't admit to it." I can tell.

July 15, 2016

17 minutes ago, Harry said:

Okay fine no one else has suffered but you so we should just talk about white problems. Happy? Like I said... You're free to make your own thread if you want it to be about you and how hard your life is.

"I'm interested in talking about real racial issues. Being followed around when shopping? Being forced to accept white standards of beauty? Being under-represented in media and being forced into stereotypical roles? Being forced to make music according to your race? Having separate proms for blacks and whites (in America)? Racist name-calling and subsequent abuse?" All of these major issues are that, major. And that's what we are talking about. The very subject of this thread is about innocent black people getting killed. So talk about them. Because I haven't seen you say a damn word.

Jane knows that it upsets people. She wants it to. You're complaining so hard right now about those white people feeling upset and scrutinised for maybe an hour, but you are completely ignoring the fact that some people are made to feel like that daily in America. And yes, you have to remember that her work is US-focused. It's not nearly as bad where we both grew up and live. But it still exists and I can't believe you'd be so blind to insist that it doesn't.

I'm inclined to believe that if you're so upset or angry about Jane Elliott's theories and experiments then she's struck a nerve with you. Clearly you'd much rather silence her and sweep all these possibilities under the rug. It isn't about feeling guilt. I don't feel guilty, I just feel awful that groups of people have been made to needlessly suffer for so long. And it makes me angry when people like you try to justify and excuse it, in addition to trying to divert the attention to problems faced by other people. You can brush off the 'All Lives Matter' thing so carelessly if you want, but that's essentially the agenda that you're promoting here.

Why are you so afraid of having a conversation that's just about racism towards blacks without bringing white people problems into it? I don't buy your argument about sexism at all. This isn't oppression olympics. Yes racism is talked about, but you really don't think there are people that deny racism exists? I saw someone on this very site yesterday say how these recent shootings aren't as much of a problem as they're "made out to be"... I've seen several black people see racism doesn't exist so I don't know where on earth you pulled that from. Just because "racism" is a known buzzword that is used often, doesn't mean that anything is done about it. I could take every argument you've made in an attempt to make the conversation about white people and apply it to women/men. It's actually the same strategy men use to shut down conversations about sexism. "Men have problems too, listen to us!!!!" "I'm not sexist, but..."

And you say people don't understand sexism etc but I don't think you understand racism. The fact you think saying you have a black friend automatically makes you non-racist alone says it all. Like I said, 'racist' doesn't = KKK membership. I don't think you understand the institutionalised aspect of it and the repercussions. So transparent.

"Racism, on the other hand, is known, it's just that racists don't admit to it." I can tell.

See, there you are, assuming things about me again. I have not said complained about anything to do with myself or said that we should just talk about white problems. You are putting words into my mouth. No, I'm not going to make a thread about how hard my life is. That isn't what I was talking about and it isn't what I was suggesting.

I have obviously said a word about it, I talked about it in the posts I made before quoting you. I said that while racism can most certainly play a part in these black killings, there clearly is other factors involved most of the time, namely, the gun issue. In America, the cops are paranoid that everyone has a gun, so they shoot first, ask questions later, just in case. When someone they perceive as dangerous walks towards them or resists arrest or runs away or says they have a gun in the trunk, that makes a cop go on high alert. It's wrong but that's what happens when a society is raised on guns. It breeds trigger happy cops. Paranoia becomes commonplace, the good guys get guns to protect themselves against the bad guys, the worst starts being assumed. It all comes down to the gun issue. Maybe if guns were banned in America and maybe if the cops didn't carry guns, maybe there wouldn't be so much violence and needless death there? Save the armed response units for the most serious cases, like they do in Britain and there would be a noticeable difference. I believe that's where the problem takes root first, then racism is the next step. But the gun issue is hardly every addressed at all, even though it's the biggest problem right under everyone's noses.

I don't care about the race of people being made to feel upset, I'm annoyed that she's making people feel guilty for things that they may not be guilty of. She doesn't even know if all the white people are racists. Not all of them will need this lesson. She assumes they are all ignorant, uneducated racists just because they're white (and that's not an act, she's stated that she honestly believes this) and I feel offended for them because of it. We are allowed to have pride and dignity. Of course I realise that some people are made to feel like this daily in America...and not all of them are non-white. The way that she's treating them is not exclusive to non-whites. It's just general bullying behaviour, so it doesn't hold up. This kind of behaviour needs to be wiped out towards all people. And I'm not talking about it being US focused here. This point of it is just universal - people get bullied like this daily all over the world. This part is not exclusively racially motivated, so why is she making it out to be so? I am not blind to racism, it's just that there's a difference between racial bullying and general bullying. A black person can be bullied in a racially motivated way or in a non racially motivated way. Same for whites. You've got to realise the difference between the two.

Yes, her work struck a nerve with me but not in the way that you think. I feel offended when she talks about all whites being racist because I know I'm not. I'm offended when she says all whites don't understand the system of racism and deny it exists and don't care about it because that's not me either. I'm one of the most caring, considerate people you'll ever meet and I've always been empathetic towards all people and want to help others. How dare she assume she knows everything about me and define me in an untrue way! Don't get me wrong, a lot of the stuff she brings up is true, but it's never balanced, she never shows any compassion, she doesn't let anyone put forward a theory she doesn't approve. You saw her eject 2 people when they dared to show a more updated, mature way of dealing with the situation. She flat out said: "Either you cooperate, or you go out." But she's all about making you feel guilty! She states that she wants white people to realise their prejudice. She's said this many times. She doesn't want people to accept there's trouble for other races and help them, she just wants whites to feel guilty for something that they may not even feel. I am completely on your side, I just have a different way of expressing it. I'm not justifying or excusing racism at all, I'm just criticising Jane's attempts to make us realise this and how she confuses general bullying for racial bullying. The agenda I'm promoting is "equality, love and kindness for all." And you only get that result by spreading your message with compassion and respectful understanding, not hate. Jane's experiment erases all individuality, intelligence and dignity from people and breeds hate. When people feel like that, they don't want to cooperate or listen. She mistakes that for racism and ignorance. Her old school methods are so old-fashioned and it has no place in modern society. It's hard for a lot of people to take someone who acts like a parody of a irate 50's schoolmistress seriously. She acts like a caricature, not a real person.

I'm all for having a conversation about blacks without bringing white problems into it but sometimes, bringing white problems into it is relevant. If it's relevant, I'll do it. Sorry, but I have a problem with people claiming that they have a problem exclusive to them when it's actually shared by everyone. I'm not trying to make this oppression olympics, I'm against that actually. I'm merely pointing out that some oppression gets more coverage than others. No, I said there are people who deny that racism exists but you can tell that they know deep down, they just won't admit it. Sexism is not like that. So many people see all manner of sexist behaviour to be completely normal, not worth reporting. But people know what racist behaviour is, don't think it's normal and know that it needs to be reported. This is a world where someone can get accused of racism and immediately taken to court without a second thought. Yet this is also a world where a woman struggles to get her sexual harassment or rape claim taken seriously, even though there's laws in place against that stuff. Racism is a well-known crime, commit it and something will be done. But sexism is such a grey area, it can be hard to prove and isn't protected well enough by the justice system. A claim of racism is always taken more seriously than a claim of sexism, that's just the way the world works. I really didn't want to turn the conversation to this but it's the truth. Seriously, if what happens to women happened to any other group of people, it would be considered so offensiv and something would be done about it. This is not the same strategy men use to shut down feminists. That's uneducated whining. What I'm doing is putting forward a researched opinion.

I fully understand racism, I can assure you. I just know what it is and what it isn't. There's a different between racial mistreatment and general mistreatment and I'm just pointing out the differences. No, I didn't offer up the "I have a black friend" idea as purely an example of being non-racist, I just gave that as an example of an anti-racism manifesto and whites feel obliged to pull these days. I know that racist doesn't equal KKK. I do understand the institutionalised system of racism and the repercussions. Just because I disagree with you on one aspect of how racism is dealt with does not mean I don't understand the concept. I'm university educated, don't treat me like I'm stupid.

I am not a racist, referring to your implication there. I've repeated this many times. You know, it's only since race has become such a major topic recently that I've started to have these hurtful accusations thrown at me. To be called a racist after all my years of being tolerant, all the hard work I've put into making other people tolerant is really pissing me off, unsurprisingly. We were starting to get along so much better through PMs. Let's not ruin it all now. I don't want us to fight like we used to.

July 15, 2016

On 7/13/2016 at 1:50 PM, Mast said:

Yes slay! Scalp all the ignorant and less than smart little monsters. #BlackLivesMatter

July 15, 2016

18 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

See, there you are, assuming things about me again. I have not said complained about anything to do with myself or said that we should just talk about white problems. You are putting words into my mouth. No, I'm not going to make a thread about how hard my life is. That isn't what I was talking about and it isn't what I was suggesting.

I have obviously said a word about it, I talked about it in the posts I made before quoting you. I said that while racism can most certainly play a part in these black killings, there clearly is other factors involved most of the time, namely, the gun issue. In America, the cops are paranoid that everyone has a gun, so they shoot first, ask questions later, just in case. When someone they perceive as dangerous walks towards them or resists arrest or runs away or says they have a gun in the trunk, that makes a cop go on high alert. It's wrong but that's what happens when a society is raised on guns. It breeds trigger happy cops. Paranoia becomes commonplace, the good guys get guns to protect themselves against the bad guys, the worst starts being assumed. It all comes down to the gun issue. Maybe if guns were banned in America and maybe if the cops didn't carry guns, maybe there wouldn't be so much violence and needless death there? Save the armed response units for the most serious cases, like they do in Britain and there would be a noticeable difference. I believe that's where the problem takes root first, then racism is the next step. But the gun issue is hardly every addressed at all, even though it's the biggest problem right under everyone's noses.

I don't care about the race of people being made to feel upset, I'm annoyed that she's making people feel guilty for things that they may not be guilty of. She doesn't even know if all the white people are racists. Not all of them will need this lesson. She assumes they are all ignorant, uneducated racists just because they're white (and that's not an act, she's stated that she honestly believes this) and I feel offended for them because of it. We are allowed to have pride and dignity. Of course I realise that some people are made to feel like this daily in America...and not all of them are non-white. The way that she's treating them is not exclusive to non-whites. It's just general bullying behaviour, so it doesn't hold up. This kind of behaviour needs to be wiped out towards all people. And I'm not talking about it being US focused here. This point of it is just universal - people get bullied like this daily all over the world. This part is not exclusively racially motivated, so why is she making it out to be so? I am not blind to racism, it's just that there's a difference between racial bullying and general bullying. A black person can be bullied in a racially motivated way or in a non racially motivated way. Same for whites. You've got to realise the difference between the two.

Yes, her work struck a nerve with me but not in the way that you think. I feel offended when she talks about all whites being racist because I know I'm not. I'm offended when she says all whites don't understand the system of racism and deny it exists and don't care about it because that's not me either. I'm one of the most caring, considerate people you'll ever meet and I've always been empathetic towards all people and want to help others. How dare she assume she knows everything about me and define me in an untrue way! Don't get me wrong, a lot of the stuff she brings up is true, but it's never balanced, she never shows any compassion, she doesn't let anyone put forward a theory she doesn't approve. You saw her eject 2 people when they dared to show a more updated, mature way of dealing with the situation. She flat out said: "Either you cooperate, or you go out." But she's all about making you feel guilty! She states that she wants white people to realise their prejudice. She's said this many times. She doesn't want people to accept there's trouble for other races and help them, she just wants whites to feel guilty for something that they may not even feel. I am completely on your side, I just have a different way of expressing it. I'm not justifying or excusing racism at all, I'm just criticising Jane's attempts to make us realise this and how she confuses general bullying for racial bullying. The agenda I'm promoting is "equality, love and kindness for all." And you only get that result by spreading your message with compassion and respectful understanding, not hate. Jane's experiment erases all individuality, intelligence and dignity from people and breeds hate. When people feel like that, they don't want to cooperate or listen. She mistakes that for racism and ignorance. Her old school methods are so old-fashioned and it has no place in modern society. It's hard for a lot of people to take someone who acts like a parody of a irate 50's schoolmistress seriously. She acts like a caricature, not a real person.

I'm all for having a conversation about blacks without bringing white problems into it but sometimes, bringing white problems into it is relevant. If it's relevant, I'll do it. Sorry, but I have a problem with people claiming that they have a problem exclusive to them when it's actually shared by everyone. I'm not trying to make this oppression olympics, I'm against that actually. I'm merely pointing out that some oppression gets more coverage than others. No, I said there are people who deny that racism exists but you can tell that they know deep down, they just won't admit it. Sexism is not like that. So many people see all manner of sexist behaviour to be completely normal, not worth reporting. But people know what racist behaviour is, don't think it's normal and know that it needs to be reported. This is a world where someone can get accused of racism and immediately taken to court without a second thought. Yet this is also a world where a woman struggles to get her sexual harassment or rape claim taken seriously, even though there's laws in place against that stuff. Racism is a well-known crime, commit it and something will be done. But sexism is such a grey area, it can be hard to prove and isn't protected well enough by the justice system. A claim of racism is always taken more seriously than a claim of sexism, that's just the way the world works. I really didn't want to turn the conversation to this but it's the truth. Seriously, if what happens to women happened to any other group of people, it would be considered so offensiv and something would be done about it. This is not the same strategy men use to shut down feminists. That's uneducated whining. What I'm doing is putting forward a researched opinion.

I fully understand racism, I can assure you. I just know what it is and what it isn't. There's a different between racial mistreatment and general mistreatment and I'm just pointing out the differences. No, I didn't offer up the "I have a black friend" idea as purely an example of being non-racist, I just gave that as an example of an anti-racism manifesto and whites feel obliged to pull these days. I know that racist doesn't equal KKK. I do understand the institutionalised system of racism and the repercussions. Just because I disagree with you on one aspect of how racism is dealt with does not mean I don't understand the concept. I'm university educated, don't treat me like I'm stupid.

I am not a racist, referring to your implication there. I've repeated this many times. You know, it's only since race has become such a major topic recently that I've started to have these hurtful accusations thrown at me. To be called a racist after all my years of being tolerant, all the hard work I've put into making other people tolerant is really pissing me off, unsurprisingly. We were starting to get along so much better through PMs. Let's not ruin it all now. I don't want us to fight like we used to.

you're not even worth trying with at this point

"Racism is a well-known crime, commit it and something will be done."

white cops shooting innocent black people every day and getting suspended with pay at best. how dare you. obviously the gun issue is a massive factor into their deaths but why is it that three times more of the total population of black people in the US are getting gunned down by police than the total population of whites? where do you think that racism and prejudice comes from? open your god damn eyes. they think black people are scary and dangerous because of how they were raised. i swear to god if you have the nerve to say that isn't a product of institutionalised racism or that it's a "coincidence" or something equally as moronic...

you're making so much of an effort to criticise jane elliot who has devoted her life to fighting against racism, rather than actually discussing the racial issues. I just posted her videos as an example for anyone that would be interested. one tiny part of a big conversation. if you disagreed you could've mentioned it in passing or just ignored it, but instead you're being completely belligerent as always, all whilst brushing past what this thread is actually about. you got ticked off that someone perfectly described and exposed the kind of person you are. it makes it look like you're not willing to have the conversation because you're doing everything in your power to divert it to something else whilst also saying "white people have it hard too"

this conversation isn't about us.

July 15, 2016

1 hour ago, Harry said:

you're not even worth trying with at this point

"Racism is a well-known crime, commit it and something will be done."

white cops shooting innocent black people every day and getting suspended with pay at best. how dare you. obviously the gun issue is a massive factor into their deaths but why is it that three times more of the total population of black people in the US are getting gunned down by police than the total population of whites? where do you think that racism and prejudice comes from? open your god damn eyes. they think black people are scary and dangerous because of how they were raised. i swear to god if you have the nerve to say that isn't a product of institutionalised racism or that it's a "coincidence" or something equally as moronic...

you're making so much of an effort to criticise jane elliot who has devoted her life to fighting against racism, rather than actually discussing the racial issues. I just posted her videos as an example for anyone that would be interested. one tiny part of a big conversation. if you disagreed you could've mentioned it in passing or just ignored it, but instead you're being completely belligerent as always, all whilst brushing past what this thread is actually about. you got ticked off that someone perfectly described and exposed the kind of person you are. it makes it look like you're not willing to have the conversation because you're doing everything in your power to divert it to something else whilst also saying "white people have it hard too"

this conversation isn't about us.

Look, I'm sorry I'm perhaps not coming across as well as I hoped. I always think I'm putting down my thoughts the best way, but clearly, my intentions are never all that clear.

Cops who do shoot innocent blacks should be fired, I agree. If complete innocence has been proven, there is no need for this. But if there was actually some violence involved from the other side, these cops are understandably paranoid, especially if they live in an area where people get shot. In a world where everyone has a gun, cops will take things too far at the slightest provocation. I wish more people would stay still and put their hands up but too many try to argue or run away. As effed up as the criminal justice system is in the US, it's always best to just comply when a cop's pointing a gun at you. I really dislike how the cops assume everyone has a gun, so feel deadly force may be necessary. And how they tend to just go with their first instinct and not budge from that no matter what. And how they humiliate some people by putting ankle cuffs on them. And how the judge and jury come to their decisions. The whole system needs a rethink. But as bad as it all is, the best route possible is to just completely comply and then you might survive. But please note I'm not talking about the ones who were completely innocent. I'm only talking about the ones who avoid complying. Not saying that they still deserve to get shot or that the cops should get away with it, but not complying only justifies using a gun in a cop's mind. It's just the way it works in America. And that mindset isn't going to change until gun laws change. The Anton Sterling case all came down to guns. He was wrestled to the ground and a gun fell out. One of the officers pinned him down and then thought he was reaching for the gun and that's when he got shot. There are so many more instances of similar shootings where the victim did have a gun on them. There's a clear pattern here. Guns are at the root of all these problems, they are the ignition. Racism then pours more petrol on the fire. But from what I can see, guns are where it all starts. Partly blaming it on racism is fine but blaming it all on racism doesn't seem to hold up. More white people get shot by police (yes, there's more of them, but it's still people getting shot), so why is not much made of that? What if it was the exact same circumstances as it is when a black person is shot? What's the cause behind the shooting then? My guess is that it's all down to guns that the victim had on them or were perceived to have on them, once again.

Here is an experiment done where a white man appears in a public with a gun vs. a black man doing the same thing.

As we can see, the white guy gets away with just being spoken to, the black guy's life was put on the line. Now, here is a clear case of paranoia at the sight of race since we know it occurred in the same area. I don't know where this is shot, but if there's a lot of problem with gun crime there, I can understand the cops being so terrified when someone walks down the street with a huge gun like that (no one should be allowed to walk down the street like that, in my opinion). Come on, wouldn't you be frightened if you saw this? Not because of his race but because he's carrying a huge gun in public. This behaviour should be questioned by cops. But definitely their handling of the situation is racist when it came to how the races were treated respectively. But notice how the black guy survived because he completely complied and cooperated? Maybe he was just lucky. But I think his giving up of the weapon was a big part of it. But if the cops are going to go this far any time someone walks down the street with a gun, well, the laws need to be changed so that you can't carry a gun in a public place. This video proves how ridiculous the existing law is. Why give anyone the right to carry a gun if you're going to criminalise them for exercising that right? That black guy was so brave for taking part in this. So, yeah, don't worry, I get it. There IS racism involved. But it's clearly not the ONLY reason. I'd s**t myself if I saw anyone walking down the street like that in the UK regardless of race and I'd hope the police would take them to task for it. America is nuts for allowing open gun carrying like that.

I only spoke so much about Jane because there are a lot of people who agree with her and 2 people said they liked the videos underneath your post. That's why I felt I had to say something because I have a strong need to exert my opinion whenever I see her work getting praised. It's rare for someone to say something against her and I thought I'd take my chance there. As a Guardian article about the UK experiment said: "There's a fierce, even admirable, relish in her words, but also the nagging suspicion that she's more excited by white fear than she is by black success." That's totally what I get from her. She's not actually changed anything through her experiments. She even perpetuates stereotypes that there's a set way to act according to race when she tells the brown eyes to act white (no wonder the UK experiment didn't work - we don't talk that nonsense here). She even admitted after the UK experiment that it wasn't as successful as she'd hoped and blamed it on the fact that there were tv cameras there and refused to televise any more experiments in case it happened again...even though her previous experiments had been filmed and they were successful in her view. That is how pompous she is, how she is determined to only see things from her perspective and can't handle being challenged by people who are more intelligent than she gave them credit for. But no matter. I've said my piece. I'll leave it at that.

This conversation took a turn when I brought up Jane but that wasn't my intention. I wasn't trying to make it about us. Once again, I feel I'm just getting terribly misunderstood. I hope by the end of this, you've understood me a bit better. I don't mean to cause any offence, I'm genuinely pointing out problems in a system that seem obvious to me but no one else dare speak about. Nothing will change if we are afraid to speak about certain things.

July 15, 2016

2 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Look, I'm sorry I'm perhaps not coming across as well as I hoped. I always think I'm putting down my thoughts the best way, but clearly, my intentions are never all that clear.

Cops who do shoot innocent blacks should be fired, I agree. If complete innocence has been proven, there is no need for this. But if there was actually some violence involved from the other side, these cops are understandably paranoid, especially if they live in an area where people get shot. In a world where everyone has a gun, cops will take things too far at the slightest provocation. I wish more people would stay still and put their hands up but too many try to argue or run away. As effed up as the criminal justice system is in the US, it's always best to just comply when a cop's pointing a gun at you. I really dislike how the cops assume everyone has a gun, so feel deadly force may be necessary. And how they tend to just go with their first instinct and not budge from that no matter what. And how they humiliate some people by putting ankle cuffs on them. And how the judge and jury come to their decisions. The whole system needs a rethink. But as bad as it all is, the best route possible is to just completely comply and then you might survive. But please note I'm not talking about the ones who were completely innocent. I'm only talking about the ones who avoid complying. Not saying that they still deserve to get shot or that the cops should get away with it, but not complying only justifies using a gun in a cop's mind. It's just the way it works in America. And that mindset isn't going to change until gun laws change. The Anton Sterling case all came down to guns. He was wrestled to the ground and a gun fell out. One of the officers pinned him down and then thought he was reaching for the gun and that's when he got shot. There are so many more instances of similar shootings where the victim did have a gun on them. There's a clear pattern here. Guns are at the root of all these problems, they are the ignition. Racism then pours more petrol on the fire. But from what I can see, guns are where it all starts. Partly blaming it on racism is fine but blaming it all on racism doesn't seem to hold up. More white people get shot by police (yes, there's more of them, but it's still people getting shot), so why is not much made of that? What if it was the exact same circumstances as it is when a black person is shot? What's the cause behind the shooting then? My guess is that it's all down to guns that the victim had on them or were perceived to have on them, once again.

Here is an experiment done where a white man appears in a public with a gun vs. a black man doing the same thing.

As we can see, the white guy gets away with just being spoken to, the black guy's life was put on the line. Now, here is a clear case of paranoia at the sight of race since we know it occurred in the same area. I don't know where this is shot, but if there's a lot of problem with gun crime there, I can understand the cops being so terrified when someone walks down the street with a huge gun like that (no one should be allowed to walk down the street like that, in my opinion). Come on, wouldn't you be frightened if you saw this? Not because of his race but because he's carrying a huge gun in public. This behaviour should be questioned by cops. But definitely their handling of the situation is racist when it came to how the races were treated respectively. But notice how the black guy survived because he completely complied and cooperated? Maybe he was just lucky. But I think his giving up of the weapon was a big part of it. But if the cops are going to go this far any time someone walks down the street with a gun, well, the laws need to be changed so that you can't carry a gun in a public place. This video proves how ridiculous the existing law is. Why give anyone the right to carry a gun if you're going to criminalise them for exercising that right? That black guy was so brave for taking part in this. So, yeah, don't worry, I get it. There IS racism involved. But it's clearly not the ONLY reason. I'd s**t myself if I saw anyone walking down the street like that in the UK regardless of race and I'd hope the police would take them to task for it. America is nuts for allowing open gun carrying like that.

I only spoke so much about Jane because there are a lot of people who agree with her and 2 people said they liked the videos underneath your post. That's why I felt I had to say something because I have a strong need to exert my opinion whenever I see her work getting praised. It's rare for someone to say something against her and I thought I'd take my chance there. As a Guardian article about the UK experiment said: "There's a fierce, even admirable, relish in her words, but also the nagging suspicion that she's more excited by white fear than she is by black success." That's totally what I get from her. She's not actually changed anything through her experiments. She even perpetuates stereotypes that there's a set way to act according to race when she tells the brown eyes to act white (no wonder the UK experiment didn't work - we don't talk that nonsense here). She even admitted after the UK experiment that it wasn't as successful as she'd hoped and blamed it on the fact that there were tv cameras there and refused to televise any more experiments in case it happened again...even though her previous experiments had been filmed and they were successful in her view. That is how pompous she is, how she is determined to only see things from her perspective and can't handle being challenged by people who are more intelligent than she gave them credit for. But no matter. I've said my piece. I'll leave it at that.

This conversation took a turn when I brought up Jane but that wasn't my intention. I wasn't trying to make it about us. Once again, I feel I'm just getting terribly misunderstood. I hope by the end of this, you've understood me a bit better. I don't mean to cause any offence, I'm genuinely pointing out problems in a system that seem obvious to me but no one else dare speak about. Nothing will change if we are afraid to speak about certain things.

oh my god. i’m really trying to believe that you’re not trying to sound like this but you’re making it so hard. you acknowledge the shootings but then go on to make more excuses that the cops are “understandably paranoid” and go on a whole dialogue about how they should just comply. wtf? yes i agree that in general you should follow police orders in order to prevent aggravating the situation, but you’re still brushing past the despicable actions of the cops and almost venturing into victim blaming with the amount of focus you put on their actions. anton sterling was literally thrown to the ground and held down but he still got shot. 6 f*cking times! hows is that needed? i don’t care if they “thought” he was trying to reach for a gun, if you saw the video you know it’s absolute BS and he wasn’t a threat at all. cold blooded murder. guns are at the root of ALL these problems? for goodness sake. did sandra bland have a gun? did eric garner have a gun? in fact here’s a list for you, and you can be damn sure that the list has piled up since then https://www.buzzfeed.com/nicholasquah/heres-a-timeline-of-unarmed-black-men-killed-by-police-over?utm_term=.qmxeG3XgZ#.lprlbNKgX of course i'm sure you'll find a way to excuse those officers. but don't bother, the legal system already did that for you.

miss me with that “more white people get shot” nonsense. absolutely absurd. you’re aware that there are 200 million white people in america and less than 40 million? when those two populations are adjusted as percentages, black people are three times more likely to be killed by police. don’t you even try it. once again, swaying the conversation. you’ve literally said “why can’t we talk about white people?” how transparent can you be!?!? if you want to have a discussion about general police brutality - and i can’t believe you would even suggest that no one talks about police brutality - MAKE. A. THREAD. stop coming into these threads that are about MURDERS that are clearly racially motivated and saying “well what about this?”. it’s in such poor taste.

why did you even post that video lol? it displays clear racism but you’ve still tried to twist it lol. yes i’d be scared if i saw someone walk down the street with a massive gun. what’s your point? i never denied that. but if you think all of these black shootings have been identical to that video (see link above) then you’re even more ignorant about this issue than i already thought. they shot a 12 year old boy for **** sake. and aside from my personal views on owning/carrying guns (which i’m pretty much with you on), the man in the video wasn’t being threatening or doing anything illegal yet he still had a gun pointed at him. by their own laws he shouldn’t have to get down on the ground. like the white guy didn’t. don’t you see how bizarre it is that your first instinct is to say “well maybe if you got on the floor quicker for the white man then you wouldn’t have been shot” rather than “i can’t believe these people are treated like animals how are those cops getting away with this” etc ? and you’re still swaying the conversation. “yeah there’s racism i guess BUT…” FINE. WE KNOW. GUNS ARE A PROBLEM. MAKE A THREAD. WE’RE TALKING ABOUT RACISM HERE. too bad if that makes you feel uncomfortable but STOP trying to undermine how massive that is.

not even going to respond to that nonsense about jane again lol. why on earth would she want white people to feel fear and guilt when she’s a white person? what benefit would she personally feel from pushing herself down? you really expect me to take that as a legitimate criticism? ignorance knows no bounds i suppose

unbelievable that you’d have the nerve to talk about “problems in the system” whilst simultaneously trying to undermine the serious impact of institutionalised racism and have us talk about white people problems instead. you can say that’s not what you’re doing all you like but that’s the effect when you say “okay yeah there’s racism BUT what about blahblahblah”. you don’t want anyone in here to talk about that because you’d seemingly rather pretend it doesn’t exist. laughable.

wow you’re pointing out stuff that NO ONE else has ever dared to speak about?! you martyr, you. hero.

you accuse someone like jane elliot of being pompous but then paint yourself to be some kind of revolutionary forward thinker in the same breath? gimme a break. you're not special. you've said outright lies in your post so i don't know how you can possibly place yourself on such a pedestal when you haven't even done any research.

July 16, 2016

Another way to get killed in the US: if you're a white cop and someone watched the Formation video and is angered by it. Thanks, Beyoncé. You really care about humanity and equality.

July 16, 2016

1 hour ago, christinahoney said:

Another way to get killed in the US: if you're a white cop and someone watched the Formation video and is angered by it. Thanks, Beyoncé. You really care about humanity and equality.

**** off.

July 16, 2016

1 hour ago, christinahoney said:

Another way to get killed in the US: if you're a white cop and someone watched the Formation video and is angered by it. Thanks, Beyoncé. You really care about humanity and equality.

Wow, I'm amazed. Congratulations you're a dumbass

July 16, 2016

On 7/13/2016 at 11:50 AM, Gaga Monster said:

Why doesn't the media talk about all the incidents in Chicago and other inner cities where African Americans are killing other African Americans everyday.

cause "black on black crime" is not your problem to deal with. and btw your statistic on more white cop death doesnt work because there are more white people in the country so obviously there are gonna be more deaths. but since there are less black deaths the percentage is bigger proportionally.

July 16, 2016

On 7/13/2016 at 7:33 PM, Jewels n Drugs said:

Check out @Football_Animal's Tweet:

disgusting. i hope that cop gets gunned down like the degenerate racist piece of **** he is

July 16, 2016

18 hours ago, Harry said:

oh my god. i’m really trying to believe that you’re not trying to sound like this but you’re making it so hard. you acknowledge the shootings but then go on to make more excuses that the cops are “understandably paranoid” and go on a whole dialogue about how they should just comply. wtf? yes i agree that in general you should follow police orders in order to prevent aggravating the situation, but you’re still brushing past the despicable actions of the cops and almost venturing into victim blaming with the amount of focus you put on their actions. anton sterling was literally thrown to the ground and held down but he still got shot. 6 f*cking times! hows is that needed? i don’t care if they “thought” he was trying to reach for a gun, if you saw the video you know it’s absolute BS and he wasn’t a threat at all. cold blooded murder. guns are at the root of ALL these problems? for goodness sake. did sandra bland have a gun? did eric garner have a gun? in fact here’s a list for you, and you can be damn sure that the list has piled up since then https://www.buzzfeed.com/nicholasquah/heres-a-timeline-of-unarmed-black-men-killed-by-police-over?utm_term=.qmxeG3XgZ#.lprlbNKgX of course i'm sure you'll find a way to excuse those officers. but don't bother, the legal system already did that for you.

miss me with that “more white people get shot” nonsense. absolutely absurd. you’re aware that there are 200 million white people in america and less than 40 million? when those two populations are adjusted as percentages, black people are three times more likely to be killed by police. don’t you even try it. once again, swaying the conversation. you’ve literally said “why can’t we talk about white people?” how transparent can you be!?!? if you want to have a discussion about general police brutality - and i can’t believe you would even suggest that no one talks about police brutality - MAKE. A. THREAD. stop coming into these threads that are about MURDERS that are clearly racially motivated and saying “well what about this?”. it’s in such poor taste.

why did you even post that video lol? it displays clear racism but you’ve still tried to twist it lol. yes i’d be scared if i saw someone walk down the street with a massive gun. what’s your point? i never denied that. but if you think all of these black shootings have been identical to that video (see link above) then you’re even more ignorant about this issue than i already thought. they shot a 12 year old boy for **** sake. and aside from my personal views on owning/carrying guns (which i’m pretty much with you on), the man in the video wasn’t being threatening or doing anything illegal yet he still had a gun pointed at him. by their own laws he shouldn’t have to get down on the ground. like the white guy didn’t. don’t you see how bizarre it is that your first instinct is to say “well maybe if you got on the floor quicker for the white man then you wouldn’t have been shot” rather than “i can’t believe these people are treated like animals how are those cops getting away with this” etc ? and you’re still swaying the conversation. “yeah there’s racism i guess BUT…” FINE. WE KNOW. GUNS ARE A PROBLEM. MAKE A THREAD. WE’RE TALKING ABOUT RACISM HERE. too bad if that makes you feel uncomfortable but STOP trying to undermine how massive that is.

not even going to respond to that nonsense about jane again lol. why on earth would she want white people to feel fear and guilt when she’s a white person? what benefit would she personally feel from pushing herself down? you really expect me to take that as a legitimate criticism? ignorance knows no bounds i suppose

unbelievable that you’d have the nerve to talk about “problems in the system” whilst simultaneously trying to undermine the serious impact of institutionalised racism and have us talk about white people problems instead. you can say that’s not what you’re doing all you like but that’s the effect when you say “okay yeah there’s racism BUT what about blahblahblah”. you don’t want anyone in here to talk about that because you’d seemingly rather pretend it doesn’t exist. laughable.

wow you’re pointing out stuff that NO ONE else has ever dared to speak about?! you martyr, you. hero.

you accuse someone like jane elliot of being pompous but then paint yourself to be some kind of revolutionary forward thinker in the same breath? gimme a break. you're not special. you've said outright lies in your post so i don't know how you can possibly place yourself on such a pedestal when you haven't even done any research.

I just think my intentions are getting misunderstood and too much is being assumed about me. When I'm giving these ideas, I'm talking about everyone, regardless of race, doing these things. It's common sense that if you comply to police orders, you have a higher likelihood of surviving. I'm not trying to victim blame, I'm trying to offer up legit strategies for the people to protect themselves. Is giving advice to protect oneself wrong now? Why is it seen as victim blaming (a term that isn't used properly these days)? Victim blaming is saying someone deserved what they got because they didn't make the right choices. I'm not saying anyone deserves anything, I'm just offering up ideas to prevent them being hurt. Big difference. Well, looking back at it, the cop did react very quickly and the angle of the clip made it hard to see if Anton's arm was moving. But the more I look it, it does indeed seem to be that didn't move. Right after telling him not to move, the cop said he was reaching for the gun, but his shoulder doesn't seem to shift. Understand that it was very hard to watch this shocking video in full several times to clarify this. I thought once was enough initially. So, ok, I'll admit I called that one wrong. But realise that I wasn't trying to defend the cops initially, I think their extreme handling of him and their language was totally unacceptable for officers of the law before we even got to the shooting. No, not every victim of a police shooting had a gun and in those cases, I'm fully on your side. But please note that people of all races have been shot by cops while unarmed before. Look up the Zachery Hammond case (his parents actually questioned why there was no mass social outcry like there was when police killed unarmed blacks). This isn't to excuse black killings, it's to simply clarify that police brutality affects all citizens. And I'm curious as to why not as big a deal is made of it when it's happening to whites. All officers are there to serve and protect and we're all human. So, why does mass outrage only happen when it's blacks that are killed? The difference in population is irrelevant - like I said, we're all human, all deaths should be treated on the same level, right?

Official stats confirmed that more whites got shot by cops between 1999 and 2011. Over and over again, I see population difference being used to dismiss this. But it doesn't hold up when the same stats also say that blacks commit more crime than whites per capita. Despite making up just 13% of the population, blacks commit half of homicide cases. From 2011 to 2013, blacks committed 38.5% of murder, manslaughter, rape, robbery and aggravated assault cases. That's 3x higher than the overall black population. Black males aged 15-34 are responsible for the vast majority of those mentioned crimes, despite this demographic making up just 3% of the US population. Blacks commit 8x more crimes than whites despite being outnumbered 5-1. Interracial rape is almost exclusively black on white. A black male is 40x more likely to assault a white person than the reverse. All this data comes from The Center of Disease Control and Prevention and the FBI. Yes, these numbers are shocking. But they're the facts. Yes, there's reasons behind why so many blacks are committing crime. No, not all blacks commit crime. But these figures cannot be ignored and they can't be dismissed just because you don't like the results (I don't like them either, this isn't me purposely setting out to make blacks look bad). These figures aren't based on blacks who were assumed to have committed crime, but the ones that had been proven to have committed crime. This isn't about being racist or biased, I'm just presenting the official figures. With all this in mind, it's no surprise that blacks frequently get into altercations with cops, whether it's for genuine or racist reasons. I never said "why can't we talk about white people" and I never said that no one talks about police brutality. All I'm asking is that we put all humanity on the same standard and stop splitting humans into categories to divide us when a tragedy happens. An unarmed person getting killed by a cop is a tragedy no matter their race. We should just see a person getting shot, nothing more. I comment about it on these threads because some whites have been killed in similar ways but no one cites that as racially motivated or starts protests when it happens. Some cops are just screwed up in general and being racist is just one part of how screwed up they are. We don't know if they'd do the same to anyone else regardless of race. If you're corrupt, you're corrupt and you should be considered corrupt no matter who it is you're killing.

I posted the video to show that not every altercation a black person has with cops has to end in death. That if they comply to police orders, like this man did, they'll be a lot more likely to survive. You even see him talking side by side with the cop afterwards. My point is that I can understand why cops would pull over someone who was carrying a big gun down the street. They should do the same to every race (I know it's legal to carry a gun, but I don't agree with that law). I never said every black shooting was identical to this, as explained above. I just said that cops will be more reasonable if you comply. No, my first instinct was not what you said. My first instinct was "they are being treated unreasonably." But then I read into the case more and find out that the victim did something that could have made the cops feel threatened (and then we get into that same idea about American cops being paranoid because this is a world where people can have guns, etc). It doesn't justify what the cops did but in that culture, they're reaction is...depressingly predictably American. That's all I'll say. I don't like this culture of "burst in all guns blazing and shoot first, ask questions later." It's clear that the shootings is where this all takes root. The entire culture on guns needs a rethink. Now, if policemen killed a black person here for resisting arrest or running away from them or whatever, I'd be mega shocked. Because our cops don't have a reason to believe that a person would be armed to the teeth here. But in America, it's very different. Shooting somebody at the first sign of threat isn't an acceptable reaction to us regular people but when you work in the police and you deal with stuff like this everyday, paranoia breeds. Still not acceptable, but a little understandable. And by the way, the idea that it could be done to racism does NOT make me uncomfortable. It's just that I can see so many other reasons that aren't related to race that could factor in the cause for these accidents. I don't see why that's so terrible.

Jane might want white people to feel fear and guilt despite being white herself because she's insecure. If you're confident in the person you are, you know who you are and who you aren't. And you also don't feel tempted to make other people feel guilty either. We are being raised in a culture that is trying to make whites feel guilty and some of them seriously start to believe it, despite being innocent. It's a shame how a white person can make claims like "I'm not a racist" and no one, not even another white person is prepared to believe them no matter what they say. It drives me insane. What happened to judging an individual, not a race? Jane doesn't seem to realise how pre-judging white people is just as racist as racism towards blacks.

I'm not saying we should talk about white problems instead. I said we should talk about problems that affect us all, of all races. Stop categorising ourselves into groups when anything bad happens. Stop thinking that only certain groups should feel offended when something bad happens. Americans should feel offended that cops are killing their PEOPLE as opposed to offended that cops are killing BLACK people. Unless it's just blacks who are being shot (and that's not true), then it's an issue with how cops are treating all its citizens IN GENERAL. Yet, you keep on insisting that I'm only talking about whites when I say this. I'm talking about us ALL. Of course racism exists, but it's not the only reason behind every black person being mistreated.

I don't think I'm a martyr or a hero. I'm just presenting an opinion that I think deserves to be listened to. There's no need to be so dramatic.

I'm not painting myself as a "revolutionary forward thinker," I just want my opinion heard and respected. I've not claimed to be special. Show me the lies I said. Because what I've put down has been based around facts. I have researched all this thoroughly. If you look up these stats, you'll find them too.

1 hour ago, SlayedForTheGod said:

cause "black on black crime" is not your problem to deal with. and btw your statistic on more white cop death doesnt work because there are more white people in the country so obviously there are gonna be more deaths. but since there are less black deaths the percentage is bigger proportionally.

Wait, I thought whenever racist crime occurs, it's a problem for whites to sort out? Why don't you want their input on other issues? I think crime that affects a country's population is the entire country's problem to sort out and it shouldn't be separated into race. Black people are Americans too, their race doesn't make them exempt from everyone else for any reason. All Americans should have an input on American issues. Don't you think the problem might be solved if you allow everyone to pitch in to solve it? Surely having 100% of the population working to solve something is better than just having 13% of the population on the case? And as for the population difference reasoning behind black vs. white killings, look at the statistics I posted above, all of them from the most official US sources.

July 16, 2016

34 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

their input on other issues? I think crime that affects a country's population is the entire country's problem to sort out and it shouldn't be separated into race. Black people are Americans too, their race doesn't make them exempt from everyone else for any reason. All Americans should have an input on American issues. Don't you think the problem might be solved if you allow everyone to pitch in to solve it? Surely having 100% of the population working to solve something is better than just having 13% of the population on the case? And as for the population difference reasoning behind black vs. white killings, look at the statistics I posted above, all of them from the most official US sources.

girl you wanna pitch in and solve it?? i havent seen many white people go into these communities and help. hell they tell there children to stay away from them. ive never seen a white person go into a community and actually help the people. and i aint talking about donations.

July 16, 2016

Just now, SlayedForTheGod said:

girl you wanna pitch in and solve it?? i havent seen many white people go into these communities and help. hell they tell there children to stay away from them. ive never seen a white person go into a community and actually help the people. and i aint talking about donations.

When I said everyone, I didn't just mean civilians, but also law enforcement and government, people who are paid to make the country change for the better. May I ask, what can a white person do by walking into a black community? How can they help? Do some chores? Babysit? I don't understand your logic here. This isn't helping to rebuild houses after a hurricane, you're asking to change people's economic status here. You can't change that by simply walking into a community and mixing with the locals. The only thing that can change a community's fortunes are education and money from the government. Schools need to start teaching students strategies to evade poverty (I've always said that all schools, regardless of location or the economic status of its students, should be focusing on teaching them how to budget, how to pay bills, how to save and invest, how to live like a responsible adult, instead of an increasing number of classes that don't teach them anything). And a poor area needs funding to improve housing and facilities and the government should be focusing on this above all else. Pouring money into poor communities simply doesn't work as its been proven that the people just spent it on the stuff they shouldn't. They have been raised in a culture where they buy something immediately because they feel like they're entitled to it and that's it's ok to live outside your means. They need to be taught how to save and spend their money wisely on the things that matter so they can live a fruitful life. That knowledge is more valuable than any amount of money you could give them.

Of course there are problems with an inherent racism in certain people that believe that they are above these communities and that's sad. But so saying, simply going into these communities will not change anything. A poor community cannot improve if its people can only accept help but not learn anything. I actually once heard a black man say (in a documentary about the downside of racial reparations) that donations to poor communities don't work because they don't encourage these people to help themselves.

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