River 130,130 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 1 hour ago, Bronco said: But equally, the geography of the region makes a 2 state solution very difficult to implement without massive sustained international policing presences. Which again, doesn't really create fertile conditions for lasting peace. I think we’re at this point where a 3 state solution is the most viable. Israel can prevent the Palestinian state as much as they want but it will happen sooner or later, it must happen for the sake of everyone, the question is, how many more people will die to temporary prevent the inevitable? So sploosh your juice all over me you Riverboy 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bambino 24,547 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bronco said: But equally, the geography of the region makes a 2 state solution very difficult to implement without massive sustained international policing presences. Remove settlements, which are internationally recognized as illegal. End the occupation. Give Palestinians the lands Israel occupied in 1967 (which Palestinians officially and globally demand for a state) and there you have a two-state solution. IF the world is concerned about a two-state solution, it should prove so by demanding the removal of all illegal settlements. But I guess that'll take a very long way. Edited October 26 by Bambino Art should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bambino 24,547 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 14 minutes ago, River said: I think we’re at this point where a 3 state solution is the most viable. 3 states? What's the third? Art should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco 29,714 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 15 minutes ago, Bambino said: Remove settlements, which are internationally recognized as illegal. End the occupation. Give Palestinians the lands Israel occupied in 1967 (which Palestinians officially and globally demand for a state) and there you have a two-state solution. I don't believe it's a viable two-state solution though because of the geography and its why I said it'd require significant likely longterm global policing efforts. As you know, but for anyone else looking, this is the 1967 borders. At it's nearest points, the land distance between the Gaza strip and the West Bank is around 35km. These borders create a massive Israel chokepoint for Palestinians attempting to pass between Gaza & the West Bank. Nevermind the complexities of shared ownership over Jerusalem. There would need to be significantly powerful/effective measures in place, with widespread global support and investment, to ensure that access between the 2 parts of Palestine by Palestinians were maintained and protected. And without a full peace deal, it would require an enforced DMZ which likewise creates a seperation between 2 parts of the Israeli state on these borders. The global community is just in no way anywhere near cohesive enough to make it work. Palestine lacks the military strength to make it work without external support, and lets face it military policing of it would just reignite conflicts. And Israel, certainly at the moment, has nothing to make it even consider allowing such a deal to happen let alone make it work by not interfering in the crossing between the 2 Palestinian territories. I'm guessing, this may be the 3 state solution River referenced - Israel/Gaza/West Bank as 3 seperated entities. I sadly think the most likely outcome at the moment, if a 2 state solution came to be on the current state of affairs, is one where Gaza is lost to Israel and the West Bank becomes the only Palestinian territory and State. It's the "easiest" solution available to the international community at the moment. The gays know how to party Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartySick 176,269 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 1 hour ago, Bronco said: I sadly think the most likely outcome at the moment, if a 2 state solution came to be on the current state of affairs, is one where Gaza is lost to Israel and the West Bank becomes the only Palestinian territory and State. It's the "easiest" solution available to the international community at the moment. Gaza doesn't even really exist anymore. I wonder if it'd be possible to have a peace deal with the West Bank (now just called "Palestine" under this deal) where Israel is given Gaza as long as surviving Gazans are given passage into the West Bank and essentially replace the Israeli terrorist/settlers who are deported back to Israel and face some kind of justice. It's a bitter and unfair pill but trading Gaza for peace and a proper Palestinian state? But could Palestinians even trust that Israel will respect and maintain a coexistence? I don't think so tbh. Whimsical bitch 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
River 130,130 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 1 hour ago, Bambino said: 3 states? What's the third? From how I see the current situation that everyone is in: Israel The West Bank Gaza I think one of the setbacks right now for the West Bank to progress into a country, from international, geographical and political points, is the Gaza/Israel conflict.. the West Bank is basically just sitting and waiting for the situation in Gaza to get better, which is not going to happen any time soon.. And even politically, it would be impossible for Fatah and Hamas to sit together in one government, or to even form a healthy coalition/opposition kind of parliament... I mean, the worst case scenario for the West Bank is if Hamas would take over it like it did to Gaza... leave the fight against Israel aside.. from leadership pov, they are as cancerous as Netanyahu.. So sploosh your juice all over me you Riverboy 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromanne 3,107 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 (edited) I believe that a 2 state solution with 1967 borders, or maybe even a 3 state solution with Israel, West Bank, and Gaza, is the most practical solution for the region. However, do people there consider any possibility for Isratine? One secular state with Jews, Arabs, and Druze etc with open borders. In this way, Palestinians who were forcefully displaced out of Israel in 1947 can return back and travel within their original 1947 territory. I believe that Israel/Palestine could've become like Singapore of West Asia with diverse ethnicities just like how Chinese, Indians, and Malays coexist peacefully together in Singapore despite originally part of Malaysia. I know that Isratine is a lost cause by now but I think it could've been better if that's the case. Edited October 26 by Chromanne Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco 29,714 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 8 minutes ago, PartySick said: But could Palestinians even trust that Israel will respect and maintain a coexistence? I don't think so tbh Yeah, without international guarantors I don't see any peace deal as being viable currently. And I think under any such deal, there would need to be a carve out for Jerusalem to effectively have it as a political enclave managed by the international guarantors. Because otherwise it will just become another Berlin during the Cold War. The gays know how to party Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mayhem 3,866 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 Like any dictator...he will find a way to "win" or stay in power... Look at Trump...Putin...Kim...Xi 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco 29,714 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 6 minutes ago, Chromanne said: However, do people there consider any possibility for Isratine? One secular state with Jews, Arabs, and Druze etc with open borders. In this way, Palestinians who were forcefully displaced out of Israel in 1947 can return back and travel within their original 1947 territory. I believe that Israel/Palestine could've become like Singapore of West Asia with diverse ethnicities just like how Chinese, Indians, and Malays coexist peacefully together in Singapore despite originally part of Malaysia. I know that Isratine is a lost cause by now but I think it could've been better if that's the case. The ideal solution is the one secular state solution. But achieving it, i'd say is near impossible. You can't forcibly secularise a population, and without that secularisation the religious divide between the majority of the Israelis and Palestinians would continue to be a disruptive force in the state's political life. And the alternative is the electoral systems we see in Northern Ireland & Lebanon where the 2 competing communities are forced into powersharing by deliberate design of the voting system and legislative/executive system. The issue of course being, this then entrenches the cultural divide rather than seeks to weaken it and actively hampers efforts to integrate even if it does limit the violence. The gays know how to party Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartySick 176,269 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 33 minutes ago, Chromanne said: However, do people there consider any possibility for Isratine? One secular state with Jews, Arabs, and Druze etc with open borders. In this way, Palestinians who were forcefully displaced out of Israel in 1947 can return back and travel within their original 1947 territory. I believe that Israel/Palestine could've become like Singapore of West Asia with diverse ethnicities just like how Chinese, Indians, and Malays coexist peacefully together in Singapore despite originally part of Malaysia. I know that Isratine is a lost cause by now but I think it could've been better if that's the case. Isn't this proposed under the name "Judea"? The problem is supremacy and bigotry is so engrained into the Israeli people and deep trauma, fear, pain, and mistrust engrained into the Palestinians, asking them to live together and share a government and country is a tall ask. 31 minutes ago, Bronco said: Yeah, without international guarantors I don't see any peace deal as being viable currently. And I think under any such deal, there would need to be a carve out for Jerusalem to effectively have it as a political enclave managed by the international guarantors. Because otherwise it will just become another Berlin during the Cold War. It really feels like the only viable "solution" (or end result) is Israel's complete annexation of both territories and the exile, subjugation, or extermination of Palestinians. I just don't see how the good guys win. Or even the morally grey guys. Whimsical bitch Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas 32,125 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 Watch him set-up some attacks on Israel, blame Iran, and somehow delay/cancel elections. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco 29,714 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 1 hour ago, Lucas said: Watch him set-up some attacks on Israel, blame Iran, and somehow delay/cancel elections. The IDF chief of staff is claiming he's trying to cause fighting to kick off again so he can suspend the elections The gays know how to party Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bambino 24,547 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 7 hours ago, Bronco said: I don't believe it's a viable two-state solution though because of the geography and its why I said it'd require significant likely longterm global policing efforts. As you know, but for anyone else looking, this is the 1967 borders. At it's nearest points, the land distance between the Gaza strip and the West Bank is around 35km. These borders create a massive Israel chokepoint for Palestinians attempting to pass between Gaza & the West Bank. Nevermind the complexities of shared ownership over Jerusalem. There would need to be significantly powerful/effective measures in place, with widespread global support and investment, to ensure that access between the 2 parts of Palestine by Palestinians were maintained and protected. And without a full peace deal, it would require an enforced DMZ which likewise creates a seperation between 2 parts of the Israeli state on these borders. The global community is just in no way anywhere near cohesive enough to make it work. Palestine lacks the military strength to make it work without external support, and lets face it military policing of it would just reignite conflicts. And Israel, certainly at the moment, has nothing to make it even consider allowing such a deal to happen let alone make it work by not interfering in the crossing between the 2 Palestinian territories. I'm guessing, this may be the 3 state solution River referenced - Israel/Gaza/West Bank as 3 seperated entities. I sadly think the most likely outcome at the moment, if a 2 state solution came to be on the current state of affairs, is one where Gaza is lost to Israel and the West Bank becomes the only Palestinian territory and State. It's the "easiest" solution available to the international community at the moment. 5 hours ago, PartySick said: Gaza doesn't even really exist anymore. I wonder if it'd be possible to have a peace deal with the West Bank (now just called "Palestine" under this deal) where Israel is given Gaza as long as surviving Gazans are given passage into the West Bank and essentially replace the Israeli terrorist/settlers who are deported back to Israel and face some kind of justice. It's a bitter and unfair pill but trading Gaza for peace and a proper Palestinian state? But could Palestinians even trust that Israel will respect and maintain a coexistence? I don't think so tbh. Why give Gaza to Israel? Simply let the PA handle it the way it did following the Oslo Accords. A Palestinian state MUST include both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Just because Hamas took it over in 2007 doesn't mean that it theoretically became the Palestine Israel is using to scare Israelis of a Palestinian state. This is just wrong. Palestine is Palestine, along with the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital, and that's what Palestinians have been demanding for decades. Believe me, if Israel wants this to work, it'll work. There's nothing Palestinians want more than a break, a peaceful place where they can live in peace finally ON THEIR land, grow olive trees, harvest them without terrorist settlers sneaking around. Art should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bambino 24,547 Posted October 26 Share Posted October 26 6 hours ago, River said: From how I see the current situation that everyone is in: Israel The West Bank Gaza I think one of the setbacks right now for the West Bank to progress into a country, from international, geographical and political points, is the Gaza/Israel conflict.. the West Bank is basically just sitting and waiting for the situation in Gaza to get better, which is not going to happen any time soon.. And even politically, it would be impossible for Fatah and Hamas to sit together in one government, or to even form a healthy coalition/opposition kind of parliament... I mean, the worst case scenario for the West Bank is if Hamas would take over it like it did to Gaza... leave the fight against Israel aside.. from leadership pov, they are as cancerous as Netanyahu.. Whatever party that keeps Gaza from uniting with the West Bank for a state needs to be removed and solved. The PA taking over Gaza doesn't seem so bad. I do think a two-state solution could work if a peace agreement is reached between the PA and a sane Israeli government that's willing to sit and negotiate. Art should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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