Germany Is Tightening Their Sick Leave Regulations

[Economy 53,090]

1 hour ago, nATAH said:

this is my reality anyway lol i don't get any sick pay unless it's a long term sickness with a note but then we get paid less than the regular pay check

if we call in sick more than 3 times a year, we get a written disciplinary, even if you've been working there more than 10 years, still no sick pay

one of the older ladies broke her finger on a bus and she had to come in before it was fully healed cus she couldn't afford to stay off any longer 

Thats so excessive. R u in the US?

 

A typical person where i work might call that many times in 1 month multiple times a year (hence why i was saying i think sometimes its not legitimate). But if its per year thats nuts

[Economy 53,090]

4 hours ago, HatsuChan said:

Guys, the way sick leaves work in Germany is very liberal. If there’s anyone to blame it’s people who overuse right to get sick leave. And it’s pretty common in Germany. I have family there, I work with German people on daily basis and trust me, some of them are rarely showing up to work  

I understand it’s controversial. I would get mad too if someone tried to take it from me. 

This is why im saying bad apples cause trust to be broken

 

Because politics is so black and white and polarized these days im not surprised people here are only looking at the side of the coin of "greedy corporations and how can they do this"

 

Not surprised they are completely discounting and not acknowledging that some ppl genuinely abuse this and thats a problem also

 

But i think it depends where ur from and your company too. In the USA they tend to go to the other extreme and give u no rights and if u call in sick too much ull get punished so probably many arent doing it in America so I dont expect many Americans to understand the issue because playing hookie is probably not actually super common there

 

Here in Canada ive had 4 jobs so far and none of the 4 companies required doctors notes. Also none were overly harsh unless u were away a lot. Of course this also varies by company but I can honestly say ive seen a lot of sus attendance records

 

Also I know parents of young kids or ppl with some kind of disability will be away more often im not talking about absences for other life reasons. I mean when people literally give sick or the flu as a reason to not come in. Somehow you have the flu 20 to 30 days a year???? Nnnnnnnnmm

 

But i dont think ppl should be pressured to come in sick either which is what regulation tightening is gonna end up doing. I think there should just be a reasonable limit of times u can call per year without having to prove anything and beyond that, then doctor notes would become mandatory. Ppl are gonna get sick a few times a year, i think we should be able to excuse a certain amount

Edited July 5 by Economy

[CautiousLurker 19,951]

18 minutes ago, Economy said:

Tbh i dont think its just a projection. If my work place absent rates say anything, i seriously doubt every one of those people that are sick at least 3 times a month actually are every time. The frequency is actually pretty stagering.

 

Still tho, i do not support this just because this is gonna end up pressuring people to either come in when they are in fact sick, or have to go to doctor when they feel like crap and should be resting

 

But im just saying, theres bad apples who ruin trust and its not as if playing hookie is not a thing and some people seem to genuinely think it doesnt happen when it clearly does

I disagree wholeheartedly - I think the notion of 'bad apples' abusing sick leave system is corporate probaganda that arose from the inflexibility of what reportable sickness can be, combined with the fact that most jobs are just awful, and, depending on personal resolve, are mildly to moderately suicide-inducing.

But that's not 'valid' to a corporation - you can't say to your employer 'I need more time off than is alloted to me because working here sucks so much that 10 hours of this makes me wanna blow my brains out' without the fear of management retaliating in some way - at the very least they'll tell you 'get another job if you're so unhappy here', conveniently dismissin the fact this might be one of only two prospects that peson might have, with second prospect being homelessness. And they'll probably shelve any potential you might have at progression because 'you're not serious, not willing to put enough effort'.

No, instead you have to go through multiple healthcare professionals and basically nag them into providing statements about either depression or another mental disorder which is protected under the law - statements they are reluctant to provide. You might have to do it even if you're in actual physical pain, because unless you have a physical ailment one can see through an ultrasound or ct scan, if you come to you manager and say you can't do part of your job atm because you're in too much physical pain and you're worried it might become worse, they might very well tell you either suck it up, or quit, because 'being in pain' is not protected under the law, so they're not obligated to do anything about it.

Or you can save yourself time and effort and say you have a flu 

 

[nATAH 57,914]

40 minutes ago, Economy said:

Thats so excessive. R u in the US?

 

A typical person where i work might call that many times in 1 month multiple times a year (hence why i was saying i think sometimes its not legitimate). But if its per year thats nuts

in the UK

at my previous job, you got sick pay after working there for 3 years but at this job i've had to work with colds and food poisoning (and it's a customer facing job)

[CautiousLurker 19,951]

43 minutes ago, Economy said:

This is why im saying bad apples cause trust to be broken

To add to this, cuz you keep bringing up 'bad apples' (unsurprisingly) - you don't know what's happening with a person.

A person can by all appearances seem perfectly fine and happy and happy to be out of work cuz they get by and get to boldly 'game the system' - that doesn't mean they don't actually NEED that time off.

I'm very much one of those bad apples, coworkers make jokes about that - I work reduced hours, and have other acommodations in place, and my peers are very much under the impression that I got them in place because I can't be bothered to put in the work.

And I don't bother trying to disspell this, I go along with their jabs in part because this propaganda is so effective that it makes you see your pain as just laziness on your part for so long, it's genuinely difficult to break away from that... but had I had an access to a gun 2 years ago when it was the most difficult for me to bare my workload, I would have shot myself - that wasn't life I was living, it was torture every day...

A lot of people don't even think this far either, they kind of just accept that yep, they're just lazy cuz they can't 'stoically' tolerate certain work conditions. But I don't think this is the case, I think a lot more people are suffering while doing the work they have to do, and they're not 'bad apples' because they want a temporary relief, it's not wrong to not want to pick up and put down a thing for 10 hours a day.

Edited July 5 by CautiousLurker

[Economy 53,090]

1 hour ago, CautiousLurker said:

I disagree wholeheartedly - I think the notion of 'bad apples' abusing sick leave system is corporate probaganda that arose from the inflexibility of what reportable sickness can be, combined with the fact that most jobs are just awful, and, depending on personal resolve, are mildly to moderately suicide-inducing.

But that's not 'valid' to a corporation - you can't say to your employer 'I need more time off than is alloted to me because working here sucks so much that 10 hours of this makes me wanna blow my brains out' without the fear of management retaliating in some way - at the very least they'll tell you 'get another job if you're so unhappy here', conveniently dismissin the fact this might be one of only two prospects that peson might have, with second prospect being homelessness. And they'll probably shelve any potential you might have at progression because 'you're not serious, not willing to put enough effort'.

No, instead you have to go through multiple healthcare professionals and basically nag them into providing statements about either depression or another mental disorder which is protected under the law - statements they are reluctant to provide. You might have to do it even if you're in actual physical pain, because unless you have a physical ailment one can see through an ultrasound or ct scan, if you come to you manager and say you can't do part of your job atm because you're in too much physical pain and you're worried it might become worse, they might very well tell you either suck it up, or quit, because 'being in pain' is not protected under the law, so they're not obligated to do anything about it.

Or you can save yourself time and effort and say you have a flu 

 

I dunno. Ill have to agree to disagree. Calling in sick when ur not is a thing. There are bad apples out there, that im convinced of. Ive seen too many rediculous number of absenses when companies have more lax policies on it to be convinced otherwise

 

If ur missing 20 to 30 days a year. U probabably werent sick at least a portion of those days

 

Now i take ur point about mental health and stress and agree with that. Ppl are pushed too hard these days. But that needs its own adressment of the issue. Calling random days is not the answer to that and if thats what ppl are doing then by ur own admission ppl are calling in when they arent really sick per say but need a break. This is where adequate vacation time and hussle culture needs to be addressed but allowing ppl to take a lot of sick days at random is not the answer imo. That creates unnecessairy distrust and it makes time off unpredicatable and hard to plan for (which isnt only bad for the company but ur coworkers who have to pick up the slack). I can honestly say many of my most stressful days at work have been when too many ppl were away at once unexpectedly and then we have to pick up the slack with 20% of people missing

Edited July 5 by Economy

[Bronco 27,641]

2 minutes ago, Economy said:

I dunno. Ill have to agree to disagree. Calling in sick when ur not is a thing. There are bad apples out there, that im convinced of. Ive seen too many rediculous number of absenses when companies have more lax policies on it to be convinced otherwise

 

If ur missing 20 to 30 days a year. U probabably werent sick at least a portion of those days

It totally depends on the workplace in my experience. 

I've worked dead end retail jobs where people openly said they treated sick leave as additional Annual Leave days to take, and I've worked in teams where the upper management respected staff and had lenient policies around dependents leave/emergency leave etc and flexible working that led to people rarely taking sick leave unless absolutely neccessary. 

Like with my job I've only taken sick leave in the near 4 years I've been here because of being hospitalised. 

[Economy 53,090]

13 minutes ago, Bronco said:

It totally depends on the workplace in my experience. 

I've worked dead end retail jobs where people openly said they treated sick leave as additional Annual Leave days to take, and I've worked in teams where the upper management respected staff and had lenient policies around dependents leave/emergency leave etc and flexible working that led to people rarely taking sick leave unless absolutely neccessary. 

Like with my job I've only taken sick leave in the near 4 years I've been here because of being hospitalised. 

Absolutely. Not everyone and everywhere are gonna do that. But to say there arent people who abuse it i think shows a bias extremely tainted by politics tbh

 

Acknowledging the issue doesnt necessairily mean u have to even support this policy in OP and roll back sick leave flexibility as a result but I find it laughable some are suggesting ppl playing hookie is not a thing. It very much is. It doesnt have to be the majority of people doing it to be an issue

 

Two things can be true at once. U can have harsh corporations push u too hard while simultaneously having people who do questionable things. The two things can be true at once its not an either or situation

 

Edit: And to emphasize what I already said to be clear, I do not support forced notes (unless ur attendance has had an absurd number of missed days) because this makes it hard for people who are genuinely sick. It will pressure them to either come in sick or not rest and have to go to the doctor and that isnt fair

 

I was merely ackowledging that flexible policies on time off can absolutely result in abuse by some and that its an issue so part of me gets where its coming from even if I dont support it. Thats all im saying really

Edited July 5 by Economy

[gagzus 24,843]

4 minutes ago, Economy said:

Absolutely. Not everyone and everywhere are gonna do that. But to say there arent people who abuse it i think shows a bias extremely tainted by politics tbh

 

Acknowledging that doesnt mean u have to even support this policy in OP but u find it laughable some are suggesting ppl playing hookie is not a thing. It very much is. It doesnt have to be the majoroty of people doing it to be an issue

There are absolutely people who abuse it sadly, here in the UK for example they’re stricter on what constitutes sick leave because people abuse it and call in sick of they’re hungover and disguise it. Even post Covid unless you’re bed bound they pretty much expect you to go to work.

It’s become hard for me personally because I have really bad depression that some days makes me incapable of getting out of bed or having energy, but because things like that are abused in the UK health system people think being depressed or having anxiety is just “sadness and feeling uncomfortable” and there’s not enough understanding and easy diagnosis of it. 
 

Employers make you feel uncomfortable if you need sick leave a lot where I’m from, they look down on days off that aren't annual leave. But even still you can self certify for 5 days and then need a doctor’s note to be off. By the sounds of it Germany is kinda taking a bad route because by the time they’ll be ill enough to get a doctors note they most certainly will have infected an entire work force with their illness no matter how small.

[apollorowling 904]

8 hours ago, OMF said:

I thought this was normal anyway? If you need to take several days off work sick you do need to present a medical certificate. This is pretty normal in Australia at least but depends on the employer as well

Yeah, in Uruguay it's the same 😐

[Economy 53,090]

19 minutes ago, gagzus said:

There are absolutely people who abuse it sadly, here in the UK for example they’re stricter on what constitutes sick leave because people abuse it and call in sick of they’re hungover and disguise it. Even post Covid unless you’re bed bound they pretty much expect you to go to work.

It’s become hard for me personally because I have really bad depression that some days makes me incapable of getting out of bed or having energy, but because things like that are abused in the UK health system people think being depressed or having anxiety is just “sadness and feeling uncomfortable” and there’s not enough understanding and easy diagnosis of it. 
 

Employers make you feel uncomfortable if you need sick leave a lot where I’m from, they look down on days off that aren't annual leave. But even still you can self certify for 5 days and then need a doctor’s note to be off. By the sounds of it Germany is kinda taking a bad route because by the time they’ll be ill enough to get a doctors note they most certainly will have infected an entire work force with their illness no matter how small.

Tbh mental health needs to be more acknowledged and i think time off for it should be allowed. This would be better than ppl calling at random as "sick" and then the frequency makes u question it

 

A system where ppl can be honest rather than lie would be better. Of course capitalism sucks in the sense companies will keeo pushing us so hard

 

Where I work the norm is that we dont ask for notes unless at the Managers discretion. Most branches ask if u start missing a lot of days only (which i think is the ideal way to go about it, ask only if the number of absenses start ti get sus) but my manager almost never asks period unless its blackout period (peak work volume early november to mid december, thats a 6 week period where vacation is not allowed and if u call in sick u must provide a note) so we get rediculous number of absenses from some

Edited July 5 by Economy

[AsleepOnTheCeiling 6,998]

4 hours ago, Mother of Puppies said:

This is soooo stupid and will result in people being "more sick" cuz if u have to show up to the doc from day 1 docs will let them stay home for 5 days cuz they dont wanna see them again in 2 days... without this whole thing people would've maybe stayed home for maybe 1 day and now it'll become 5 days lol and a part of people if they rlly are sick and lets say have a cold will show up sick to work and spread all the gems to the other people 

docs don't even know where to put all the poeple anyway so now the wait time will be even longer especially for the people who rlly need to go to the doc.. ARGHH politics in germany make me so ****in mad I could write a whole essay on this 

 

anyways, this comes from someone who has exactly 1 sick day in 3 years because I worked while being rlly sick (because I work from home lol) and yes, this was stupid I won't be doin that again but basically didnt have a chance

My biggest concern for this is the further congestion of the healthcare system because a doctor's note can be required from day 1. I think it's perfectly fine to take 1 day of sick leave every once in a while because adults know how to treat things such as migraines, stomach bugs, etc. Longer than that can be questionable but to possibly require it from day 1 is ridiculous. I don't feel like German culture will pick up on this practice though generally and it will be large multinational corporations that put this kind of policy into practice. 

2 hours ago, CautiousLurker said:

To add to this, cuz you keep bringing up 'bad apples' (unsurprisingly) - you don't know what's happening with a person.

A person can by all appearances seem perfectly fine and happy and happy to be out of work cuz they get by and get to boldly 'game the system' - that doesn't mean they don't actually NEED that time off.

I'm very much one of those bad apples, coworkers make jokes about that - I work reduced hours, and have other acommodations in place, and my peers are very much under the impression that I got them in place because I can't be bothered to put in the work.

And I don't bother trying to disspell this, I go along with their jabs in part because this propaganda is so effective that it makes you see your pain as just laziness on your part for so long, it's genuinely difficult to break away from that... but had I had an access to a gun 2 years ago when it was the most difficult for me to bare my workload, I would have shot myself - that wasn't life I was living, it was torture every day...

A lot of people don't even think this far either, they kind of just accept that yep, they're just lazy cuz they can't 'stoically' tolerate certain work conditions. But I don't think this is the case, I think a lot more people are suffering while doing the work they have to do, and they're not 'bad apples' because they want a temporary relief, it's not wrong to not want to pick up and put down a thing for 10 hours a day.

I think it's reasonable to expect most adults to be juggling things outside of work and we try to meet our commitments where possible. Obviously SI is an extreme example so I'm not talking about those cases but people do lose people, have sick children, etc. The problem isn't being expected to go to work, it's the support systems within society (or lack thereof) for those cases. I work on a team of ~30 people with 3 other departments that also have ~30 people a piece. I see what calling out of work does to the company as well as the employees within it. And I think there is a balance to respecting an individual's personal lives as well as respecting the effects your absence has on your peers. We regularly lose 5-6 people daily for "illness" and so do those other departments. And because those people are in our headcount we factor them into our productivity goals. We have contracts and business partners downstream that get affected by this, so we obviously can't alter our productivity metrics by 15-20% for illness regularly. And funnily enough we are transitioning our absence policy, with anything between a few weeks ago and the transition date not counting unless you were to get written up. And suddenly, our absences for illnesses skyrocketed. The company was transparent about our policy change as a courtesy to the teams and the "bad apples" are now taking advantage of this transparency to game the absence policy. So they do definitely exist. 

[EART HL I NG 1,556]

9 hours ago, OMF said:

I thought this was normal anyway? If you need to take several days off work sick you do need to present a medical certificate. This is pretty normal in Australia at least but depends on the employer as well

It’s pretty much the same in the States a well. It depends on the employer, but some places will mark sick leave as an attendance occurrence unless you have a doctor’s note. Some places don’t have separate paid sick leave either, you just have to use your paid personal time off if you want to get paid or the days you’re out and if you don’t have any PTO to cover it then you’re out of luck

Edited July 5 by EART HL I NG

[Roughhouse Dandy 13,866]

Cucked for capitalism yet again. 

Who cares if a few people take advantage of the system? Are they actively taking food out of your mouth? Are they sending your job into an overall deficit? 

What do you gain being a hall monitor for your job? Nothing. They're not on your side and don't care about your wellbeing. If you die tomorrow they'll replace you and keep it moving without a tear spilled. Stop giving excuses for their actions. Stop critiquing workers for the actions of the job they work at. 

[Lucas 31,501]

Isn't the UK doing the same? I think I read something similar a couple days ago on the amazing source of information that is TikTok