China defends Palestine after Trump attacks

[PartySick 172,975]

To anyone reporting posts in this thread I have to apologize but we're not informed enough to effectively moderate the topic of China/Tibet/East Turkestan/Uyghurs other than having a general feeling of "China bad, Chinese government evil".

This is gonna have to be a topic y'all hash out for yourselves.

[Jill 31,812]

10 minutes ago, LOVEDRUG said:

Is it really impossible for you to believe that someone could investigate something further, do their own research and still not come to the same conclusion as you? And I'm the one who doesn't even engage with the other side? You're just as ideological as the rest of us, you haven't been awakened to some kind of enlightened higher truth as you seem to think you have been.

This is why the far-right is on the rise. Because people are sick of being told that they are objectively wrong and need to be 'educated' just for holding a contrary opinion. Someone defending the idea of liberal democracy and rejecting authoritarian autocracy does not make them the US-bootlicker you're trying to make me out to be. Quite frankly, I could not care less about the United States, in fact at the moment, I want absolutely nothing to do with it. Yet somehow an American telling me what I should and should not believe is not the kind of imperialism you're suggesting?

The world isn't just communists and fascists. I'm probably on your side in relation to a whole host of things. But the minute you start telling someone that they've been brainwashed you completely reject the idea of civil debate.

Oh, now the far right is on the rise because people don't want to know they're being ignorant about something? Not because of the concentration of wealth? Not because of the growing inequality? Not because of political parties all around the world offering wrong solutions to wrong problems just so they can grow that inequality even further?

Now it turns out no! None of that is the reason why the far-right is on the rise. It's because people are being sick of being told they're wrong. Wow! What an enlightened take! Yeah, sure, we shouldn't do that! When people are wrong about something, we shouldn't tell them that! We should just carry on with our lives and let anti-intellectualism thrive. Surely that won't backfire in any way.

Are you going far right now that I told you you were wrong? Or is that not how it works?

Besides, who said the world is just communists and fascists? Lol. I'm just talking about the US worldwide propaganda apparatus which is an objective thing that objectively exists even by the US's own admission. I don't know what else to tell you to be honest.

And liberal democracy is the fakest democracy on Earth. You're defending a hollow system that only works if it has the support of oligarchs. As soon as they take that support away, it turns into fascism. What an incredible and sustainable system you have there.

[LOVEDRUG 11,285]

1 minute ago, Jill said:

Oh, now the far right is on the rise because people don't want to know they're being ignorant about something? Not because of the concentration of wealth? Not because of the growing inequality? Not because of political parties all around the world offering wrong solutions to wrong problems just so they can grow that inequality even further?

Now it turns out no! None of that is the reason why the far-right is on the rise. It's because people are being sick of being told they're wrong. Wow! What an enlightened take! Yeah, sure, we shouldn't do that! When people are wrong about something, we shouldn't tell them that! We should just carry on with our lives and let anti-intellectualism thrive. Surely that won't backfire in any way.

And who said the world is just communists and fascists? Lol. I'm just talking about the US worldwide propaganda apparatus which is an objective thing that objectively exists even by the US's own admission. I don't know what else to tell you to be honest.

I have my opinions, you have yours. Just please learn that someone having a different opinion to you does not make them 'ignorant' or 'wrong'. With that last point, I was referencing your argument that because I dislike the Chinese government, I must be a devoted supporter of the US government, who's either too stupid or too ignorant to realise that they're being manipulated. You may think that's the case, but I don't think it's fair or reasonable to expect everybody to have exactly the same views as you.

I'm going to agree to disagree. Neither of us are going to win the other over, this argument has become too heated and too personal to do so.

[Jill 31,812]

Just now, LOVEDRUG said:

I have my opinions, you have yours. Just please learn that someone having a different opinion to you does not make them 'ignorant' or 'wrong'. With that last point, I was referencing your argument that because I dislike the Chinese government, I must be a devoted supporter of the US government, who's either too stupid or too ignorant to realise that they're being manipulated. You may think that's the case, but I don't think it's fair or reasonable to expect everybody to have exactly the same views as you.

I'm going to agree to disagree. Neither of us are going to win the other over, this argument has become too heated and too personal to do so.

I respect your opinion. But that respect won't keep me from telling you how wrong you are according to my perspective. You're also allowed to do that, I don't know if you know. I never said you were a "devoted supporter of the US government". I just pointed out you're repeating talking points defended and published by media outlets directly financed by the US governement or aligned organizations and, as such, your views coincidentally align with those of the US government. The point of debates isn't just to strictly win the other over, but also to explain one's position and perspective and try to test it against another one.

[LOVEDRUG 11,285]

1 minute ago, Jill said:

I respect your opinion. But that respect won't keep me from telling you how wrong you are according to my perspective. You're also allowed to do that, I don't know if you know. I never said you were a "devoted supporter of the US government". I just pointed out you're repeating talking points defended and published by media outlets directly financed by the US governement or aligned organizations and, as such, your views coincidentally align with those of the US government. The point of debates isn't just to strictly win the other over, but also to explain one's position and perspective and try to test it against another one.

I'm a single notch above being outright politically anti-American—people can develop and adopt the views that I'm expressing through means other than by being influenced by American media. Liberalism is one of the oldest and most historically-rich political traditions out there, and there's some manifestation of it in just about every single political system on the planet.

I could point out that you're 'technically' repeating talking points made by Joseph Stalin. But I don't believe that you are, I believe you've come to your political perspective independently, influenced by a range of sources. I'm only asking that you provide the same dignity to me. I'm not affected by your belief that I'm incorrect, I think plenty of people probably think I'm incorrect, I just reject the insinuation that my political perspective is somehow the result of indoctrination.

[Jill 31,812]

3 minutes ago, LOVEDRUG said:

I could point out that you're 'technically' repeating talking points made by Joseph Stalin. But I don't believe that you are, I believe you've come to your political perspective independently, influenced by a range of sources.

I have a book recommendation for you, totally serious about this, you should give it a try. It's free to read online: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1924/foundations-leninism/

[misha4ever 2,077]

But Isntreal is an US colony so the US is in control of Palestine. Also, I don't trust anybody here because they only want power at the cost of human lives.

[LOVEDRUG 11,285]

Just now, Jill said:

I have a book recommendation for you, totally serious about this, you should give it a try: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1924/foundations-leninism/

I'll take a look. I have done the reading on Marxism—I'm someone who asked for Das Kapital as a birthday present when I was a teenager, I just wasn't convinced. I just don't agree with you, which is fine.

[Scarlet Witch 1,656]

2 hours ago, LOVEDRUG said:

Parts of China that were occupied by force, ethnically cleansed and subject to military oppression. Really not that different to what's happened in Gaza. Regardless of what they are legally, they've been just as brutally treated.

Please read up on the history of Tibet and how it used to be a serfdom monarchy that treated its people brutally like slaves. Communists liberated them and their standard of living has only increased since then. And there is no proof of ethnic cleansing in China, especially in Xinjiang. All the sources come from a far-right christian fundamentalist Adrian Zenz (google him). There is a reason why all of the Arab and Muslim dominated countries have come out and deny this. You are also free to go to Xinjiang as a tourist, like many many Westerners on YouTube have done so.

I'm literally sick of people spreading lies about China. If the genocide in Palestine is the most documented genocide in history, even with the extremely strict land control Israel has over it, then how come there are almost NO videos or photos of this supposed 'genocide' in Xinjiang?

[LOVEDRUG 11,285]

8 minutes ago, Scarlet Witch said:

Please read up on the history of Tibet and how it used to be a serfdom monarchy that treated its people brutally like slaves. Communists liberated them and their standard of living has only increased since then. And there is no proof of ethnic cleansing in China, especially in Xinjiang. All the sources come from a far-right christian fundamentalist Adrian Zenz (google him). There is a reason why all of the Arab and Muslim dominated countries have come out and deny this. You are also free to go to Xinjiang as a tourist, like many many Westerners on YouTube have done so.

I'm literally sick of people spreading lies about China. If the genocide in Palestine is the most documented genocide in history, even with the extremely strict land control Israel has over it, then how come there are almost NO videos or photos of this supposed 'genocide' in Xinjiang?

As said elsewhere in this thread, I don't agree with that perspective and that's fine. I do appreciate the recommendation though.

[Chromanne 2,628]

1 hour ago, Scarlet Witch said:

Please read up on the history of Tibet and how it used to be a serfdom monarchy that treated its people brutally like slaves. Communists liberated them and their standard of living has only increased since then.

Many countries also give this same excuse to justify colonization. Perhaps this can also apply to Israeli Arabs themselves who live a more comfortable life than Palestinians.

1 hour ago, Scarlet Witch said:

And there is no proof of ethnic cleansing in China, especially in Xinjiang. All the sources come from a far-right christian fundamentalist Adrian Zenz (google him). There is a reason why all of the Arab and Muslim dominated countries have come out and deny this. You are also free to go to Xinjiang as a tourist, like many many Westerners on YouTube have done so.

The truth is somewhat grey. There are indeed many Uighurs who love to be a part of China since China has done rapid development in the past 4 decades and they are pleased by it. But, we can't also completely deny that re-education camps and forced sterilisation happened. All Muslim countries don't talk about it because they don't want to cause any hindrance in their trade and diplomatic relations. Also foreign tourists are under surveillance most of the time and they are not allowed in specific places, so that they are shown only what China wants to show.

[Jill 31,812]

11 minutes ago, Chromanne said:

The truth is somewhat grey. There are indeed many Uighurs who love to be a part of China since China has done rapid development in the past 4 decades and they are pleased by it. But, we can't also completely deny that re-education camps and forced sterilisation happened. All Muslim countries don't talk about it because they don't want to cause any hindrance in their trade and diplomatic relations. Also foreign tourists are under surveillance most of the time and they are not allowed in specific places, so that they are shown only what China wants to show.

There's no way Americans or other Westerners would believe that China might be doing some things better than them. Instead, they come up with a series of outlandish excuses. They explain things through lens that make it impossible for their adversary to be in the right, and they universally apply to almost every geopolitical adversary of the West, but especially to China.

If Muslims in China claim they are oppressed, then Westerners will surely believe this and say they are oppressed. However, if they say they are not oppressed, then that, according to Westerners, must mean China has a propaganda and surveillance state that allows no dissenting opinions. So, according to them, they actually are oppressed, despite their denials. No matter what, China cannot win.

If China lacks infrastructure and is full of poverty, then it is a dystopia. If it isn’t full of poverty and you can actually see a lot of well off people, then tourists must only be allowed in specific places to hide the "truth". Actually, Westerners say, China is full of poverty and its infrastructure is way worse than that of the West. You just can't see it for some reason. Once again, China cannot win.

If China is attacked by terrorist groups and takes action to stop them, it is authoritarian and ruthless for trying to re-educate radicals and stop them from commiting any more illegal acts. If it does nothing, then it is equally terrible for failing to protect its people. Yet again, China cannot win.

If other Muslim countries claim that China is committing a so-called "genocide", Westerners take it as definitive proof. But if those same countries unanimously state that nothing of the sort is happening, then, according to Westerners, there can only be one explanation: they are afraid of jeopardizing trade and diplomatic relations. For the fourth time, China cannot win.

And we could go on and on.

Reminds me of a famous Michael Parenti quote about the USSR in his book "Blackshirts & Reds":

"During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence.

If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative.

If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime's atheistic ideology.

If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn't go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom.

A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them."

 

[Chromanne 2,628]

4 hours ago, Jill said:

There's no way Americans or other Westerners would believe that China might be doing some things better than them. Instead, they come up with a series of outlandish excuses. They explain things through lens that make it impossible for their adversary to be in the right, and they universally apply to almost every geopolitical adversary of the West, but especially to China.

Like I said, the truth is grey. I know that westerners see it in either black or white, but it is what it is. No country in this world is really a perfect paradise. China has a lot of positive things to offer and I acknowledge that the Western world still underestimates China, but they have also made a lot of questionable decisions especially regarding Uighurs and Tibetans, and also have territorial disputes with nearly all its neighbouring countries. We can all appreciate China for its progress and its stand for Palestine without invalidating the genuine criticism.

[Jill 31,812]

2 minutes ago, Chromanne said:

Like I said, the truth is grey. I know that westerners see it in either black or white, but it is what it is. No country in this world is really a perfect paradise. China has a lot of positive things to offer and I acknowledge that the Western world still underestimates China, but they have also made a lot of questionable decisions especially regarding Uighurs and Tibetans, and also have territorial disputes with nearly all its neighbouring countries. We can all appreciate China for its progress and its stand for Palestine without invalidating the genuine criticism.

The whole point is that this is not genuine criticism. There are a lot of things to criticize China for, but their supposedly bad treatment toward two minorities is not one of them.

[Ladle Ghoulash 54,002]

Now do Taiwan.