Joker 2 Misunderstood

[XxBones 864]

I gave in and got Joker 2. I was watching some of it again last night and had a few thoughts:

I honestly feel like Joker 2 is misunderstood and will be popular in the future. I think it is hated for a few understandable reasons, one being that it insults the fans of the first but also that the message was not widely understood. Or if it was understood, it was unexpected and not well received.

I believe that the first movie was set out to show the mental illness of Joker and that society should not ignore and deal with it before it becomes bad. What ended up happening was people celebrated Joker at his worst and neglecting why he became this way and the messages of the first movie.

Joker 2 in a way is meta to this message as the beginning cartoon points this out. People cheering Joker on but neglecting the mental illness. Gaga’s character Harlequin also represents these fans because she is this rich, educated girl who likes Joker so much she fakes her mental illness to be in the same asylum as Joker. She ends up finding out he isn’t this amazing Joker persona she thought he was and leaves him. This represents what is basically happening in real life. The fans want Joker so bad that they find out he isn’t Joker, but Arthur Fleck, and they hate it. Joker himself starts to realize this fact. This is why he sings “but he’s only funny by mistake” and “they don’t see his lonely heart break”. A song about realizing people only love him for being Joker even though he struggles.

Lady Gaga confirms this with her song “Happy Mistake”. Although Gaga has talked about this song and related to it personally, it is also on the movie companion album and relates to the movie. The song basically talks about celebrating something that shouldn’t necessarily be celebrated. The lyrics “cheering on a scene absurd” and “I could try to hide behind the makeup, but the show must go on” speak to the fact that even when someone is struggling, even as a performer, people care more about that than the person inside.

It’s understandable why this movie is hated because it really is a big F you to the Joker fans of the first, forcing them to see a reality they don’t want or care to see. But it also sticks to its morals that we shouldn’t ignore mental illness. For this reason, it makes sense why Gaga wanted to be a part of this project because she has advocated for this cause. I think in the future, when there have been endless amounts of cookie-cutter villain movies or people fear how badly mental illness can lead someone, people will crave a movie representing that, and Joker 2 will come back.

 

Shortened pop translation: Joker 2 is ARTPOP and will be appreciated and understood later. The “music not the bling” message was not understood, and the executives of the album hated it because they didn’t like being criticized and don’t care about the music; they want the bling.

[Borisapillar 8,144]

Hi! So unfortunately it’s just bad

[Roughhouse Dandy 8,307]

It really is so much better than the initial reception made it out to be. It's got an easy path for cult classic status. 

[JohnWayne92 2,105]

No. This film was a bad film for an absurd amount of reasons, and this is coming from a Gaga fan, a Joker fan, a fan of Phoenix’s acting, a cinefile and a writer. 
 

The pacing was awful, there is a literal lack of plot, especially when you compare it to the first film. They did 0 things to truly expand the character of Arthur, created another, more interesting character with Lee and then completely neglected to flesh that out too. This film was exactly what you said - a middle finger to the fans of said film. Mix that with the incredibly misleading marketing and it was a recipe for disaster. 
 

Have you watched Halloween 2018-Halloween Kills-Halloween Ends? 
 

Halloween Ends takes something that 2018/Kills tries to set up and then completely dismantles it and gives the audience the exact opposite of what they came to see. 
 

As someone who loves it when an artist takes a chance, they have to know how to do it correctly. I’m sorry, but this was nothing more than a cash grab and way for the director to put the nail in the coffin he didn’t want to reopen in the first place. 

[ShayCristoforo 10,492]

Yeah it doesn’t deserve all the hate. The performances were good, and the story makes total sense if you can relate to delusion and obsession and escapism through music. We are Lady Gaga fans… of course we can ALL relate to that 

[63grekke 1,142]

gaga did the best she could with the material given but at the end of the day, it was a poorly written movie with no plot whatsover.

let it go.

[monstrosity 3,866]

It’s an amazing movie, way way better than the first, it is indeed misunderstood and people will get it 10 years from now, including Gaga stand that trashed it … 

[monstrosity 3,866]

Just now, 63grekke said:

gaga did the best she could with the material given but at the end of the day, it was a poorly written movie with no plot whatsover.

let it go.

A movie does need a plot to gross a billion dollars; but doesn’t need it to be good; also it does have a plot 

[HotLikeMexico 4,426]

2 minutes ago, monstrosity said:

It’s an amazing movie, way way better than the first, it is indeed misunderstood and people will get it 10 years from now, including Gaga stand that trashed it … 

[Roughhouse Dandy 8,307]

59 minutes ago, JohnWayne92 said:

Halloween Ends

Another misunderstood gem lmao 

I guess the görls who get it get it and the ones that don't just don't and never will. V sad for them 

[clownery 3,385]

36 minutes ago, 63grekke said:

gaga did the best she could with the material given but at the end of the day, it was a poorly written movie with no plot whatsover.

let it go.

Sadly true, this is the first Gaga acting project I absolutely hated and it wasn't her fault at all 😔

[XxBones 864]

1 hour ago, JohnWayne92 said:

No. This film was a bad film for an absurd amount of reasons, and this is coming from a Gaga fan, a Joker fan, a fan of Phoenix’s acting, a cinefile and a writer. 
 

The pacing was awful, there is a literal lack of plot, especially when you compare it to the first film. They did 0 things to truly expand the character of Arthur, created another, more interesting character with Lee and then completely neglected to flesh that out too. This film was exactly what you said - a middle finger to the fans of said film. Mix that with the incredibly misleading marketing and it was a recipe for disaster. 
 

Have you watched Halloween 2018-Halloween Kills-Halloween Ends? 
 

Halloween Ends takes something that 2018/Kills tries to set up and then completely dismantles it and gives the audience the exact opposite of what they came to see. 
 

As someone who loves it when an artist takes a chance, they have to know how to do it correctly. I’m sorry, but this was nothing more than a cash grab and way for the director to put the nail in the coffin he didn’t want to reopen in the first place. 

I agree with some of your points but also disagree with others. When you directly compare it to the first movie, then yes, the plot is minimal and the pacing is slower.

I don’t think this necessarily makes a film bad. A film being perceived as good or bad is subjective and changes constantly. An example, “The Shining,” was criticized for the exact same reasons upon its release. Even Stephen King himself did not like the movie, and the movie was nominated for Razzies. It is now praised as being one of the greatest horror films for things other than the plot.

I only use this as a way to say perception can change. I can’t predict the future or what Joker will become. I could also be wrong and it will be forgotten, but I am not necessarily commenting on whether the movie is good or bad but that there is a clear message that was intended. Maybe the filmmakers were ambitious with this message, but it does not seem understood right now, and it could possibly resonate in the future. I believe maybe in the viewpoint of the studio, it’s a cash grab, but it was used by the creatives to take a chance at new ideas, which I feel people should do more.

I also agree with you about Halloween Ends breaking the norms of the previous. What I think separates this movie from Halloween Ends is that Joker 2 created such a novel and daring idea. I mean, a mainstream villain musical that went against so many conventions? I think this is what will bring people back to it. It really is just my opinion, though, and any artistic work will be subjective and not universally agreed on.

[Stephen 30,256]

Worst thing about this discourse is those who refuse to let others enjoy the movie.

Like, ok you hate it. Most people agree with you! So why do you care to shut down anyone who dares to compliment it? weirdo cringe behavior

[MOT 2,629]

I liked the movie. I am no fan of Batman/Joker/comicbook movies in general, so it was never going to p me off the way it did many other people.

Someone else above has already mentioned the misleading marketing, and yes, it was very misleading. There may still be a behind the scenes story to be told about making big changes to the plot late in the day, but even if that was the case, most of the marketing was after the fact, and it looks like a deliberate middle finger. 

[clementine 275]

I think the ppl that say there’s no plot etc are a lil disillusioned as to what good cinema can be but I grew up watching “boring” French cinema and really enjoy the nuances of human interaction, conversation, and emotion.

Joaquin was amazing at portraying his character and made me cry a few times during the film. That makes a good film to me. I think that a lot of people didn’t realize what kind of movie it was (a lot of folks I asked didn’t know it was a musical and we were even told it wasn’t a musical????) so I understand the resentment and the feeling of being lied to I guess.

But ppl kinda let their expectations cloud the magic of the film. Idk I think it’s probably the best film I’ve ever seen

Edited 3 hours ago by clementine