Kamala Harris handles MAGA hecklers

[Jay23 367]

1 hour ago, Catnikko said:

.. you can literally go find videos of him saying these things..

 

inb4 "bUt iT wAs TaKen oUt of conText/1!!

You know why they cant post links to the sources of their claims? Because they only heard it from someone within their own echo chamber. If the things they claim about Trump were actually true, I wouldn’t have to ask you for source links 

[Didymus 34,380]

1 hour ago, Morphine Prince said:

Although I do agree how NATO expansion is seen as an act of aggression by Russia, this war with Ukraine also led to Sweden and Finland joining, which just advances NATO’s interests. They joined directly because of the fear Russia would do the same to them as they did to Ukraine. Which kinda justifies the existence and expansion of NATO? 

Russia had been in Ukraine for nearly a decade at this point (Crimea), I see it as an excuse to invade further and Russia took the opportunity. 

I don’t disagree US and the West’s foreign policy is garbage, but Russia deliberately made the decision to invade (just as they had wanted to for a while) so they aren’t blameless and certainly NATO isn’t fully responsible for it happening, in my opinion. 

Russia has a history of invading other neighboring countries in the recent past too, Georgia immediately comes to mind. 

Never said Russia was blameless. Just saying that Kamala's crew has been recklessly escalating conflict and endangering Ukrainians in the process. I made my comment in response to a claim that Kamala should be elected "for the sake of Ukrainians". That's like saying we should hope Netanyahu gets re-elected for the sake of the survivors of October 7th because, you know, he says he cares. It erases the question of responsibility. NATO expansion had no justification in the 90s other than to antagonize Russia. The idea that Russia wants to "attack Europe" cannot be understood isolated from that fact.

Kamala seeks to continue the policy of bolstering NATO at a time when the disastrous outcome of that policy is clear as day. She provides no reasoning or real vision for the future, only platitudes about her supposedly being unwilling to cozy up to dictators. She says this with a straight face while defending her cozying up to Netanyahu's segregationist fascist "ally" Israel, currently a year into a full-blown genocide. Any interpretation of Kamala's "concern" for Ukraine in that context seems hilariously naive, and I can't stand it when people use that propaganda to sway voters. It's the kind of naiveté that I feel next generations simply can't afford anymore.

Again, this is not me saying "don't vote for her". I just don't understand for the life of me why we can't vote for people and also be honest about them.

[Morphine Prince 110,031]

1 hour ago, Didymus said:

Never said Russia was blameless. Just saying that Kamala's crew has been recklessly escalating conflict and endangering Ukrainians in the process. I made my comment in response to a claim that Kamala should be elected "for the sake of Ukrainians". That's like saying we should hope Netanyahu gets re-elected for the sake of the survivors of October 7th because, you know, he says he cares. It erases the question of responsibility. NATO expansion had no justification in the 90s other than to antagonize Russia. The idea that Russia wants to "attack Europe" cannot be understood isolated from that fact.

Kamala seeks to continue the policy of bolstering NATO at a time when the disastrous outcome of that policy is clear as day. She provides no reasoning or real vision for the future, only platitudes about her supposedly being unwilling to cozy up to dictators. She says this with a straight face while defending her cozying up to Netanyahu's segregationist fascist "ally" Israel, currently a year into a full-blown genocide. Any interpretation of Kamala's "concern" for Ukraine in that context seems hilariously naive, and I can't stand it when people use that propaganda to sway voters. It's the kind of naiveté that I feel next generations simply can't afford anymore.

Again, this is not me saying "don't vote for her". I just don't understand for the life of me why we can't vote for people and also be honest about them.

I think what is meant by that is Trump has hinted at keeping aid from Ukraine which could lead to Russia having an upper hand in the conflict and finishing the invasion. 

Meanwhile Harris would continue sending money to Ukraine. 

I personally don't agree with both and think the conflict needs to end diplomatically. But these are the choices we have. 

[Bronco 28,247]

1 hour ago, Didymus said:

NATO expansion had no justification in the 90s other than to antagonize Russia. The idea that Russia wants to "attack Europe" cannot be understood isolated from that fact.

NATO expansion in the 90s can be understood by anyone with a basic level of knowledge of how post-Warsaw nations in Eastern Europe achieved their independence from Soviet Russia.

I think its incredible arrogance to ignore the lived experience of the people in nations like Poland, Czechia, Bulgaria, the ex Yugoslav nations etc under the oppression of the USSR when discussing Nato expansion.

These countries, all of whom were recently independent. Most of which gained independence in the face of significant violent surpression and decades of Soviet abuse. In their first democratic era elected to join a defensive union that promised them safety from retaliation from Russia. And lets not act like 90s Russia, especially between the years 1999 & 2004 when most Warsaw nations joined Nato, was a peaceful nation. Putin's first acts of violent surpression occurred during this period when he facilitated false flag attacks on mainland Russia from Czechnyan insurgents to justify a fullscale invasion of the territory and reestablished Soviet era control in the territory.

Again. Nato expansion into the Warsaw states is only something that can be seen as an act of aggression or a deliberate provocation of Russia if Russia's intentions were to reestablish the Warsaw bloc.

[Didymus 34,380]

15 minutes ago, Bronco said:

NATO expansion in the 90s can be understood by anyone with a basic level of knowledge of how post-Warsaw nations in Eastern Europe achieved their independence from Soviet Russia.

I think its incredible arrogance to ignore the lived experience of the people in nations like Poland, Czechia, Bulgaria, the ex Yugoslav nations etc under the oppression of the USSR when discussing Nato expansion.

These countries, all of whom were recently independent. Most of which gained independence in the face of significant violent surpression and decades of Soviet abuse. In their first democratic era elected to join a defensive union that promised them safety from retaliation from Russia. And lets not act like 90s Russia, especially between the years 1999 & 2004 when most Warsaw nations joined Nato, was a peaceful nation. Putin's first acts of violent surpression occurred during this period when he facilitated false flag attacks on mainland Russia from Czechnyan insurgents to justify a fullscale invasion of the territory and reestablished Soviet era control in the territory.

Again. Nato expansion into the Warsaw states is only something that can be seen as an act of aggression or a deliberate provocation of Russia if Russia's intentions were to reestablish the Warsaw bloc.

I’m not ignoring their lived experience, I’m just not legitimizing the American tactic of promising them safety from “Russian retaliation”.

The lived experience of these people is a whole other story. And that story includes how Ukrainians’ lives were gambled with by American presidents, the policies of which Kamala aims to extend.

We’re probably on the same page here. My original post was posted exactly because I felt that the lived experience of Ukrainians, Palestinians and the Taiwanese were being glossed over to prop up a candidate.

[Bronco 28,247]

51 minutes ago, Didymus said:

I’m not ignoring their lived experience, I’m just not legitimizing the American tactic of promising them safety from “Russian retaliation”.

But you are ignoring them because you are depriving them of independence or agency to suit your agenda. 

If you actually knew the circumstances of the NATO enlargement in the 90s (of which only 3 Warsaw Pact nations joined in this period - Poland, Czechia & Hungary), you'd know that NATO nations weren't originally onboard with the accession as they believed it would overdilute power in the various voting bodies of NATO amongst other things. You'd also know that the Visegrad states feared that the NATO adjacent status they had (which was given to them as part of the support to the desovietisation of the nations) was actually designed to prevent them joining.

Your position is typical of western left wing mindsets which repeatedly treat Eastern European countries as if they were mindless children needing moddycoddling because they don't know any better. It's the same superiority mindset colonialists use to justify their positions. 

You absolve them of any self-determination and in doing so completely write over the history of violence they successfully resisted and overthrew. And you support handing them back into the arms of a fascist imperialist state because you oppose what you percieve as imperialism by another because you refuse to acknowledge that countries that have recently overthrown an imperial power would take steps to protect themselves from it. Do you not see the irony, the hypocrisy?

Have you ever been to an Eastern bloc nation and spoken with the people who lived through the decades of purges & violence? Ever stopped to find out why they were so keen to join the EU & NATO? Listened to them talk about losing family members or being tortured? 

[PartySick 174,934]

7 hours ago, Didymus said:

Again, doesn't mean you or others shouldn't vote for her. But why the misinformation? Kamala has not done one single thing to advance a Palestinian state, quite the opposite. So why feel the need to throw that in there every time as if it's true? It's not.

It's not misinformation?

People may be dissatisfied with the US' current stance of "defend Israel, give humanitarian aid to Gaza, try to negotiate a ceasefire in the meantime" strategy but there's nothing to indicate American leadership is supportive or indifferent to Palestinians' suffering.

As I said before, I'd like everyone to remember the Biden administration's Palestine policies pre-Oct 7th when we were pumping millions of dollars into Gaza to do things like modernize their internet services, build infrastructure, and maintain a relationship with Israel so Gazans could work in the state.

The goal there was always to build Gaza up, convince Israel to lift their occupation of the region, and remove Israeli settlements from the West Bank through sanctions and international pressure. That may or may not have been realistic considering how indignant Israel can be but that was what our government was working towards before Hamas decided to attack Israel and give Netanyahu the excuse he needed to go full genocide.

It's not unreasonable to take Harris at her word when she stands at a podium and says "I will do what I can as president to ensure Palestinians are on track to have their own free and independent state". In her speeches, the words "Palestine" and "self determination" are basically joined at the hip.

So yeah, I'm sorry, but I simply disagree with your perspective on Harris and the belief that this is "performative"  I'm under no delusions that she's the "great savior" or that American interference could even deliver an independent state for Palestine at all. However, at worst, she won't walk that progress backwards. Maybe she can actually get us somewhere.

7 hours ago, Didymus said:

I think this desire to somehow manufacture a clean conscience before casting a vote is disturbing and unhealthy. It's ok to vote against things you also value. That's life.

No need to manufacture a clean conscience, my conscience is already clean

The way you speak is as if I'm twisting everything to fit some kind of patriotic Stockholm syndrome where I sit in a corner with my little 🇺🇸 flag and say "this is fine, this is fine, this is fine" but no

Harris has my enthusiastic support and I'm hopeful she'll carry out actions domestically and globally that I believe in. So far, she's given me zero reason to doubt that.

If she missteps, I'll be right there with you guys to criticize her and hope she does better

We have conflicting perspectives, my friend  you see me as delusional, I see you as pessimistic, I guess we can meet back in here four years and discuss which one of us has egg on our face

[PartySick 174,934]

3 hours ago, Didymus said:

The idea that Russia wants to "attack Europe" cannot be understood isolated from that fact.

Out of curiosity, what do you think Putin's motives are for invading Ukraine?

[Didymus 34,380]

8 minutes ago, Bronco said:

But you are ignoring them because you are depriving them of independence or agency to suit your agenda. 

If you actually knew the circumstances of the NATO enlargement in the 90s (of which only 3 Warsaw Pact nations joined in this period - Poland, Czechia & Hungary), you'd know that NATO nations weren't originally onboard with the accession as they believed it would overdilute power in the various voting bodies of NATO amongst other things. You'd also know that the Visegrad states feared that the NATO adjacent status they had (which was given to them as part of the support to the desovietisation of the nations) was actually designed to prevent them joining.

Your position is typical of western left wing mindsets which repeatedly treat Eastern European countries as if they were mindless children needing moddycoddling because they don't know any better. It's the same superiority mindset colonialists use to justify their positions. 

You absolve them of any self-determination and in doing so completely write over the history of violence they successfully resisted and overthrew. And you support handing them back into the arms of a fascist imperialist state because you oppose what you percieve as imperialism by another because you refuse to acknowledge that countries that have recently overthrown an imperial power would take steps to protect themselves from it. Do you not see the irony, the hypocrisy?

Have you ever been to an Eastern bloc nation and spoken with the people who lived through the decades of purges & violence? Ever stopped to find out why they were so keen to join the EU & NATO? Listened to them talk about losing family members or being tortured? 

Where the **** are all these assumptions coming from? Again, I am only talking about American foreign policy. Both things can be true: Eastern European have suffered from Russian expansionism and American foreign policy has unnecessarily antagonized Russia and gambled with Ukrainian lives in the process.

If this was a thread about European politics, maybe this history of violence Eastern Europeans have successfully resisted and overthrew would be relevant but it's not in here, sorry if that offends you. Like, I am truly sorry, because I don't think we would disagree at all about that subject

[Didymus 34,380]

24 minutes ago, PartySick said:

As I said before, I'd like everyone to remember the Biden administration's Palestine policies pre-Oct 7th when we were pumping millions of dollars into Gaza to do things like modernize their internet services, build infrastructure, and maintain a relationship with Israel so Gazans could work in the state.

The goal there was always to build Gaza up, convince Israel to lift their occupation of the region, and remove Israeli settlements from the West Bank through sanctions and international pressure. That may or may not have been realistic considering how indignant Israel can be but that was what our government was working towards before Hamas decided to attack Israel and give Netanyahu the excuse he needed to go full genocide.

How were they aiming to convince Israel to lift their occupation when they denied and continue to deny that Israel is occupying them at all? His administration denied point blank that Palestinians are illegally occupied in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Biden literally banned the word "occupation" from the Dem party platform.

Also, the US has singlehandedly. blocked every international attempt to sanction and pressure Israel so, again, where were we supposed to see any of what you're claiming? The aid they send to Gaza? Israel says they do too. Obviously not a great argument.

30 minutes ago, PartySick said:

We have conflicting perspectives, my friend  you see me as delusional, I see you as pessimistic, I guess we can meet back in here four years and discuss which one of us has egg on our face

I don't see you as delusional. I see you as passionate and trying to do your part in securing what's best for your country. I get that I seem pessimistic but I guess in my own twisted way I'm actually optimistic because people are talking about these things at all.

[Didymus 34,380]

33 minutes ago, PartySick said:

Out of curiosity, what do you think Putin's motives are for invading Ukraine?

To push back against NATO expansionism, bolster Russian nationalism along historical lines and, in doing so, prevent Russians from cozying up to Western style democracy close to its borders.